Field/specialties with the least amount of euthanasia?

[Minnerbelle]

Euthanasia (usually convenience or financial euthanasia) is one of the more common reasons many vets say they become depressed or burnt out. So I believe it is wise to consider this topic heavily.

I think this is a common idea passed on by pre-vets and even vet students, but I'm not so sure how true this is. I know a good number of depressed and burnt out vets, and I don't think any of them would
cite euthanasia as their reason. I honestly can't think of a single person for which this is true. I dunno, maybe other people know more. I'm sure there are people for which it bugs them so much that they can't function, but I think it's pretty rare. Yes, we all have that one case or two that haunts us that we wished we hadn't euthanized, but I have way more other cases that haunt me for other reasons. Finances can play a big part in burn out, but not necessarily the euthanasia attached with it. Compassion fatigue can contribute to burnout, and euthanasia is a part of that, but I feel like there is so much more that goes into compassion fatigue.

I want to know all the opportunities vet medicine has to offer and I want to learn more about the opportunities that require less euthanasia because that is probably what I will enjoy most. That is why I am asking vets on this forum to help bring some insight about the different fields within vet medicine.

I dunno, I just don't think entering this profession is a good idea with the intent to go into a particular clinical specialty to avoid euthanasia. What if you can't? I mean it's a real possibility. What are you going to do then?

Are you going to be okay through internship year where a huge part of your duties is likely emergency work and you will be doing multiple financial euthanasias every shift? It might be easy for you to say, well it's only a year. But it's your first year as a doctor where you feel like you're in over your head all the time and stressed to the max, even if you're comfortable with euthanasias. I know several people who were broken down during their internships.

If you're financially well off, then you can be choosy. But with student loan debt, if you can't land your number one choice of jobs, you can only be choosy for so long before you just simply can't afford to. It would be horrible to have to do something you object to that much just because you can't afford not to.

These are rhetorical questions, and you really don't need to answer them as it's yourself that you need to convince, not me or anyone else here. But I would make sure you can honestly answer these questions for yourself. I just don't know how realistic your plan is. It's one thing to be okay with being a GP or ER vet which is where the jobs are, and then wander to a niche that might be a better fit. But to have the goal of a specific specialty as a clinical vet to avoid euthanasia would be pretty rough.

A safer bet if you're really that sure about rehab is to become a human physical therapist and take the certification course for canine rehab through Tennessee. That way you have a way to earn a living doing something without compromising your morals or whatever until you can realize your dream of working with animals.

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[dyachei]

My burn out was more related to crappy work conditions and leadership as well as client constraints and interactions than euthanasia.

Something to consider may be a behavior specialty. Most behaviorists only see clients that are pretty committed to change and if an animal does get euthanized for behavior, they aren't the ones that do it.

Euthanasia is such a large part of vet med I think it's really hard to avoid (and it can be very positive in many situations)

 

[deleted498041]

I know. And I'm sorry I let this thread go off track a little. I've just gone through a grumpy period recently because of a succession of students who made it very clear that they disliked necropsy (and histology) intensely and thought it was totally irrelevant because they were going to be hot shot surgeons or some ****.

I can't help but be a little defensive of it because honestly....very few people really are interested it or enjoy it, and most people (students especially) can act very negatively towards it. I don't teach to make people love pathology; I really don't - I know that only a few do and I am under no illusions here. But it can wear you down and make you defensive when you are surrounded by negativity towards your passion (not that anyone specifically was really negative here, but there were words and phrases that were very similar to some of the comments I do get).

Imagine for a second if this field that you loved was considered uncomfortable and gross at best and hellacious as worst by a large portion of the veterinary population. Most of the students on path rotation are dreading it and hating it. It's not like surgery or medicine or derm or optho where everyone is super excited and interested. It's extra hard to remain an optimistic and upbeat teacher in these cases. I mean, I do a pretty good job of it, or at least my evaluations from the students say so. I'm not nearly as grumpy in person as I can be on here But it can sometimes be depressing, I gotta admit.

My "little sib" at my school has gotten crappy comments just from fellow students as a first few for her love of path. I don't remember exact quotes but it was stuff like "Why are you here if you only like dead things?" Classmates shirk their responsibilities in anatomy lab to her, which, of course, she doesn't mind, but is dumb of them. I can't imagine dealing with those kind of comments and attitudes on a daily basis.

 

[deleted498041]

Why shouldn't I go into zoo medicine if I dislike euthanasia? I know there will be some euthanasia with very ill patients in zoo medicine, but I would think you don't have to deal with the sad problem of financial euthanasia or convenience euthanasia. I have researched convenience euthanasia in zoos and from what I read it is highly frowned upon and not a commonality.

This is simply not true. There are more euthanasias than you'd expect in zoo med, and financial and convenience euthanasias certainly exist. I'd recommend reaching out to Dr. McNamara, one of the pathologists at my school, who worked for the Bronx Zoo at the height of WNV in New York. I'd also recommend looking into the controversy with the zoo (in Denmark maybe?) with their giraffe that they euthanized and then fed to the lions. Zoo med is not a good choice if you want to avoid euthanasias.

 

[PrincessButterCup]

Totally understandable. And I apologize on behalf of vets and vet students for the negativity. Necropsy may not be our niche, but we should treat you with the respect that you and your field deserves. There are some words/phrases that get my hackles up when people talk about vet med, so I have empathy from a parallel viewpoint.

It's a bummer students have a negative perception of pathology at your place. It was considered cool at my school. Mostly because one of our instructors was a total awesome badass who everyone compared to Chuck Norris. (It's a small world, do you know Dr. Leathers at WSU?) I mean, pretty much everyone adored this guy. He's quiet and witty - a great teacher and clearly brilliant. I didn't like being on the necropsy floor, but I did enjoy learning about the lesions. He made it cool and interesting, like being a detective. His classes were never skipped; that guy kept butts in seats.

Also it gets a great review from 4th years because there's no patient care I think ortho sx was the rotation at my school where everyone was like "ugggh nooooooo." Heavy case load, never going to participate the surgery besides retracting and a ton of patient care.

I shadowed at WADDL this summer! I could only go once a week w/ my work schedule, and it just worked out that I was usually there when Dr. Leathers was on the floor. Later in the summer there were no 4th years on rotation and I got to help more with the necropsies, and the residents and pathologists would just talk me through everything and answer my dumb questions all afternoon. It was so fascinating. My first day, the pathologist asked me "Do you know what this is?" and I was like, The liver! Nope. It was the spleen. I thought they'd hate having a dumb undergrad around but everyone was so nice and eager to help me learn.

Have you heard that Dr. Leathers is retiring this January? I'm so sad he's leaving.

 

[lailanni]

I shadowed at WADDL this summer! I could only go once a week w/ my work schedule, and it just worked out that I was usually there when Dr. Leathers was on the floor. Later in the summer there were no 4th years on rotation and I got to help more with the necropsies, and the residents and pathologists would just talk me through everything and answer my dumb questions all afternoon. It was so fascinating. My first day, the pathologist asked me "Do you know what this is?" and I was like, The liver! Nope. It was the spleen. I thought they'd hate having a dumb undergrad around but everyone was so nice and eager to help me learn.

Have you heard that Dr. Leathers is retiring this January? I'm so sad he's leaving.

Nooooooo! Aw man!! That guy is awesome!! There's no replacement for him. If he has a retirement celebration I'd love to go. I would totally drive cross state for that. He's pretty much a legend at WSU. And despite how quiet he is and how intimidating some people may find him, he's always at the student pizza mixers chatting with the prospective students. Super cool guy. One of my favorite quotes by him: "You can learn something from any person you meet. It may be what not to do, but you can still learn from them."

I'm sad future students won't get his lectures. They honestly were some of the best in vet school. Plus he had a class assignment where everyone had to give a 1 minute speech about anything they wanted. It was to help us be more concise with communicating. But it was also hilarious and the whole class really enjoyed it. He'll definitely be missed around school!

 

[Sciencenerd10]

I have read about the Denmark controversy regarding the giraffe they euthanized, cut up in front of children for educational purposes, and then fed to the lions. They came under some fire for that. I know there will be some euthanasia in a zoo setting. My goal is to work in a setting where there is less euthanasia, not necessarily no euthanasia. Wouldn't you all agree that zoo veterinarians probably deal with less euthanasia than GP or emergency? I would think they do.

Where are you guys getting this information about the amount of euthanasia that goes on in zoos? Have you guys worked in one or interned in one? Is it word of mouth? Organizations do set how much population they can have of a species but I would think there are more options than euthanasia that we are skipping over. Don't they try to relocate the animal to a new zoo? Or to a rescue center for that species? Do they at least try exhausting all other options first? I have contacted my local zoo but they don't allow students to observe under their veterinarians.

The convenience euthanasia (or the pet owners who ask for them) and financial euthanasia were reasons many vets I have talked to said they burnt out. I think they mean these are the things that contribute greatly to compassion fatigue. When their hearts are so big and then owners come in and ask to put fluffy down because she takes up too much of their precious time, I can definitely see how that contributes to burn out. I am glad to hear that many vets refuse convenience euthanasia.

I wouldn't mind working GP for awhile. I really enjoyed volunteering with a GP vet. I would most definitely try working my way into a field of vet med that requires less euthanasia though.

You guys keep mentioning internship year. Are you referring to the year after I would have graduated with my DVM and then work/intern until I get a job? Why would it most likely be in emergency clinics? Don't we have a choice as to where we intern?

 

[DVMDream]

I have read about the Denmark controversy regarding the giraffe they euthanized, cut up in front of children for educational purposes, and then fed to the lions. They came under some fire for that. I know there will be some euthanasia in a zoo setting. My goal is to work in a setting where there is less euthanasia, not necessarily no euthanasia. Wouldn't you all agree that zoo veterinarians probably deal with less euthanasia than GP or emergency? I would think they do.

Where are you guys getting this information about the amount of euthanasia that goes on in zoos? Have you guys worked in one or interned in one? Is it word of mouth? Organizations do set how much population they can have of a species but I would think there are more options than euthanasia that we are skipping over. Don't they try to relocate the animal to a new zoo? Or to a rescue center for that species? Do they at least try exhausting all other options first? I have contacted my local zoo but they don't allow students to observe under their veterinarians.

The convenience euthanasia (or the pet owners who ask for them) and financial euthanasia were reasons many vets I have talked to said they burnt out. I think they mean these are the things that contribute greatly to compassion fatigue. When their hearts are so big and then owners come in and ask to put fluffy down because she takes up too much of their precious time, I can definitely see how that contributes to burn out. I am glad to hear that many vets refuse convenience euthanasia.

I wouldn't mind working GP for awhile. I really enjoyed volunteering with a GP vet. I would most definitely try working my way into a field of vet med that requires less euthanasia though.

You guys keep mentioning internship year. Are you referring to the year after I would have graduated with my DVM and then work/intern until I get a job? Why would it most likely be in emergency clinics? Don't we have a choice as to where we intern?

In order to even possibly get into a specialty that has "less" euthanasia, you will need to complete one year of internship before going into the specific residency for the specialty you want to be in.

A one year internship is a rotation internship, you have to rotate through all services and quite a bit of your time is spent on emergency/ICU and you are often on call for emergency/ICU during your internship year. Same thing does happen in residency as well (the on-call part).

So you will have to be ok with dealing with those economic euthanasias for at least a year, if not longer depending upon your residency and how much on-call for emergency they might put you on for. This is, if you can even get into a residency and pass the specialty board exams after the residency and get hired on as a specialist, something that is becoming increasingly more competitive and difficult to do.


And you will have a fairly decent amount of euthanasia in a zoo setting. The reasons we are mentioning that is because of a mix of personal experience along with knowing people who work in zoos.

We've given you some options for "less" euthanasia, but you don't seem interested in those, so I am not sure what else to tell you.

Like someone else mentioned, you can get into canine rehab without having to go through veterinary school and all the debt. However, you will need to be prepared to have some difficult quality of life conversations with some of these clients, mostly because many animals that are going downhill due to orthopedic issues are healthy otherwise, but they are in so much pain and can't move well. You can also go through veterinary school and get into this area as well, I know of a vet who does this type of thing. They pay isn't near as good as GP, but some vets can get up to about the level of a GP vet with rehab, it is just hard to do as you need to find a good and dedicated client base.

I honestly think you should try to get some more experience and then decide on what you can or can't handle. There is nothing wrong with saying that you would prefer to do as little euthanasia as possible. But you are going to have to limit yourself to a few specific areas of vet med in order for this to happen.

 

[Lab Vet]

Where are you guys getting this information about the amount of euthanasia that goes on in zoos? Have you guys worked in one or interned in one? Is it word of mouth? Organizations do set how much population they can have of a species but I would think there are more options than euthanasia that we are skipping over. Don't they try to relocate the animal to a new zoo? Or to a rescue center for that species? Do they at least try exhausting all other options first? I have contacted my local zoo but they don't allow students to observe under their veterinarians.

You guys keep mentioning internship year. Are you referring to the year after I would have graduated with my DVM and then work/intern until I get a job? Why would it most likely be in emergency clinics? Don't we have a choice as to where we intern?

I volunteered at a large, AZA accredited zoo for three years. During that time, I interacted with many keepers as well as every veterinarian on staff. Such experience certainly qualifies as first hand. Relocating an animal to a new zoo- certainly an option- IF there is room at another facility. What if there isn't? In the case of a birth derived from inbreeding, relocation may never be an option. Rescue center? I know less about this option, if it is one at all. It never came up in my conversations with zoo employees. There may be regulations against such relocation, given zoo ownership of an individual. Yes, zoo staff members do exhaust every option prior to euthanizing an animal (of course they would). Sometimes, there just aren't any good solutions.

If zoo medicine is something you're really interested in, you should try to get some experience prior to your vet school applications, although this category of experience isn't necessary of admissions. My experience wasn't officially 'with the veterinarians.' I worked with the keepers (did a lot of husbandry), and met the vets through unofficial channels. There's rarely one way to solve a problem- you may just need to think creatively out of the box to get the experience you want. It may not be directly with vets, but you're not at liberty to be picky. I'd take any experience I could get, if it gave me access to the environment. You'll have the option to gain brief exposure to zoo medicine in vet school (more options at certain schools, given the faculty emphasis and availability of facilities, over others), through extramural rotations your senior year, as well as during summers. You should be aware that zoo medicine is the most competitive specialty within veterinary medicine. There are a lot of folks who start out wanting to go this route, only to change mid stream after they realize that there simply aren't a sufficient quantity of jobs to satisfy the demand. The oversupply of interested/qualified candidates tends to drive down the salary. Multiple internships followed by a residency (very competitive admissions) are required to enter this field. Even after all that, a job may not be available.

There is no internship 'year' in vet school. You have the opportunity to go off-site for multiple, discreet experiences during your final year. You need to leverage these opportunities, as well as the 'free time' you have during your 1st/2nd year summers, to your advantage.

 

[Sciencenerd10]

We've given you some options for "less" euthanasia, but you don't seem interested in those, so I am not sure what else to tell you.

It isn't that I am uninterested in these. I need to be exposed to them to know if I am. My heart feels drawn to zoo med or rehab. I am very interested in hearing about all options available with less euthanasia though.

You can also go through veterinary school and get into this area as well, I know of a vet who does this type of thing. They pay isn't near as good as GP, but some vets can get up to about the level of a GP vet with rehab, it is just hard to do as you need to find a good and dedicated client base.

Did they tell you what their pay was? And if so would you mind sharing? I would like to know around what salary rehab vets make.

Multiple internships followed by a residency (very competitive admissions) are required to enter this field. Even after all that, a job may not be available.

I didn't think you had to complete a residency to enter the field of zoo medicine. I know you have to if you want to become board certified but can't you work in zoo/aquatic medicine without becoming board certified?

 

[DVMDream]

Did they tell you what their pay was? And if so would you mind sharing? I would like to know around what salary rehab vets make.

She told me that it is less than what GP's make, however she has been making more since she has been doing it for a few years now, but it sill isn't as much as she was making as a GP. I don't ask people point blank what their salary is, because it is kind of rude. That should give you enough information on how much they make.

I am very interested in hearing about all options available with less euthanasia though.

First response to this thread has information on other options.... those links that lailanni provided are where you will get more information on the options that lailanni also provided...

Google the veterinary specialties. https://www.avma.org/ProfessionalDevelopment/Education/Specialties/Pages/default.aspx (link here if that didn't work)

Just some of the ones where I'd think you don't really have to euth. There are several more but I'll let you check that out yourself.

Dermatology https://www.acvd.org/
Dental http://www.avdc.org/
Nutrition http://www.acvn.org/
Radiology http://www.acvr.org/

Probably of most interest to you is ACZM > http://www.aczm.org/

Becoming a diplomate in a specialty requires a residency (and more often than not, an internship or time in practice before that). Internships are typically in a fast paced, busy clinic where you will most likely encounter euthanasia.

But just as a cautionary note, you will see a lot of dead animals in vet school. If you spend time in a general practice to get experience hours (which you'll need for your school app) you'll see a fair amount of euthanasia. Also zoo medicine is highly competitive and has very, very limited openings. I would wager that most people who enter vet school with zoo med as their intent usually end up working in general practice because there just aren't many jobs. Not saying it's not possible, but the probability isn't working in anyone's favor. So you'll need to be patient, well connected, or open to other opportunities.

 

[deleted498041]

Where are you guys getting this information about the amount of euthanasia that goes on in zoos? Have you guys worked in one or interned in one? Is it word of mouth? Organizations do set how much population they can have of a species but I would think there are more options than euthanasia that we are skipping over. Don't they try to relocate the animal to a new zoo? Or to a rescue center for that species? Do they at least try exhausting all other options first? I have contacted my local zoo but they don't allow students to observe under their veterinarians.

My first time working in a zoo will be Monday, when I start my zoo rotation in Oregon, although I hardly think that makes me unqualified to make posts such as I have. I make a concerted effort to stay informed with regards to most aspects of vet med concerning salaries, day-to-day operations and responsibilities, work/life balance, etc. I'm lucky enough to have some fantastic vets who have worked in zoos at my college (Dr. Joslin, Dr. Eng, Dr. McNamara) and are more than happy to share their experiences although I'll admit I haven't picked their brains as much as someone who would be interested in a career in zoo med would have.

If your heart is drawn to zoo med, I would highly recommend talking to a vet who works in a zoo whether or not they're a DACZM.

 

[Lab Vet]

I didn't think you had to complete a residency to enter the field of zoo medicine. I know you have to if you want to become board certified but can't you work in zoo/aquatic medicine without becoming board certified?

I'm not in this field, so I can't say for certain. I'd hazard a guess, though, that there are many, many boarded folks looking for jobs (ANY jobs) that an unboarded person would find it very tough to be hired. The competition is fierce for these positions, and many folks stay at an institution for the duration of their careers (meaning their position doesn't become open until their retirement). The situation is a bit less competitive in lab animal, but there would be no contest between a boarded and unboarded lab animal vet when it comes to a hiring decision, at least for upper echelon jobs. The truth is that there are simply too many people applying for too few positions.

 

[Lab Vet]

It isn't that I am uninterested in these. I need to be exposed to them to know if I am. My heart feels drawn to zoo med or rehab.

I know of one individual who is boarded in rehab. He's also a boarded surgeon (small animal orthopedics). I know nothing about the opportunities available for vets with a pure rehab background, but can see this specialty dovetailing nicely with surgery (either small or large) and sports medicine.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

My "little sib" at my school has gotten crappy comments just from fellow students as a first few for her love of path. I don't remember exact quotes but it was stuff like "Why are you here if you only like dead things?" Classmates shirk their responsibilities in anatomy lab to her, which, of course, she doesn't mind, but is dumb of them. I can't imagine dealing with those kind of comments and attitudes on a daily basis.

Ugh, yeah. I got that too during school. Not from many, but from enough.

My favorite though, was during fourth year. Word had gotten around that I had gotten a residency and the nice people on my block were congratulating me, and one asked (totally innocently) oh, so you don't have to do an internship beforehand for path? And this bossy little small animal snot who I was unlucky enough to be on with butted in with "Oh, that's because pathology isn't a very desireable residency".

I just...

Right. So "undesireable" that the year I applied to my program there were almost 40 applicants per spot. What a gigantic tool.

 

[Sciencenerd10]

She told me that it is less than what GP's make, however she has been making more since she has been doing it for a few years now, but it sill isn't as much as she was making as a GP. I don't ask people point blank what their salary is, because it is kind of rude. That should give you enough information on how much they make.

Of course you don't. I was hoping she offered the information to you lol.

First response to this thread has information on other options.... those links that lailanni provided are where you will get more information on the options that lailanni also provided...

Right. I know the names of the specialties that require less euthanasia now. But I am hoping people can chime in about experience in these specialties. I would like to hear first hand what is was like for some people working in these specialties. Kind of like the information provided about pathology. If anyone works in any of the other specialties listed that require less euthanasia, I am interested in hearing about what that specialty was like.

I know of one individual who is boarded in rehab. He's also a boarded surgeon (small animal orthopedics). I know nothing about the opportunities available for vets with a pure rehab background, but can see this specialty dovetailing nicely with surgery (either small or large) and sports medicine.

That is interesting. I considered going down the orthopedic surgeon specialty route. It would be cool to do both. You could essentially rehabilitate the patients you previously did surgery on.

 

[DVMDream]

Right. I know the names of the specialties that require less euthanasia now. But I am hoping people can chime in about experience in these specialties. I would like to hear first hand what is was like for some people working in these specialties. Kind of like the information provided about pathology. If anyone works in any of the other specialties listed that require less euthanasia, I am interested in hearing about what that specialty was like.

You need to try to shadow these specialties. That is going to give you the best information. There just aren't that many board-certified veterinary people floating through this forum in order for you to get this information from here. Even if there were one or two, your better bet is to try to gain that experience and insight first-hand.

 

[Sciencenerd10]

You need to try to shadow these specialties. That is going to give you the best information. There just aren't that many board-certified veterinary people floating through this forum in order for you to get this information from here. Even if there were one or two, your better bet is to try to gain that experience and insight first-hand.

Yeah I definitely will. That is where I will ultimately find my decision. Hopefully someone who has worked in one of these specialties even for a short time may be able to provide insightful information on here too. I am hoping to get a good amount of experience first hand, advice first hand as well as through this forum, and through the combination and a lot of soul searching, I can come to a decision.

 

[Sciencenerd10]

Something to consider may be a behavior specialty. Most behaviorists only see clients that are pretty committed to change and if an animal does get euthanized for behavior, they aren't the ones that do it.

Thank you for the recommendation! I will definitely look into this specialty.

Did any of you know anyone who graduated and directly went into a job in an area of their liking that wasn't GP or emergency? I don't mean areas that require board certification, but someone who just graduated and landed a job in an area they were hoping to work in?

Also do you know of anyone who graduated and opened their own practice immediately? I would imagine this would be nearly impossible to do with student loans hanging over your head.

 

[Minnerbelle]

Thank you for the recommendation! I will definitely look into this specialty.

Did any of you know anyone who graduated and directly went into a job in an area of their liking that wasn't GP or emergency? I don't mean areas that require board certification, but someone who just graduated and landed a job in an area they were hoping to work in?

Also do you know of anyone who graduated and opened their own practice immediately? I would imagine this would be nearly impossible to do with student loans hanging over your head.

There are lab animal and shelter animal people who went into it right out of school who are very happy with what they do.

There's actually a surprising number of people who start mobile/home call practices because they couldn't find a job of their liking right out of school. More of a salvage situation with a lot of these cases I think.

 

[Sciencenerd10]

There's actually a surprising number of people who start mobile/home call practices because they couldn't find a job of their liking right out of school. More of a salvage situation with a lot of these cases I think.

I never even thought of this! I wonder how you would get your name out there without working at a clinic/hospital first.

 

[Minnerbelle]

We need a meme for when a prevet asks a question, doesn't like the answers provided by multiple vets and vet students, and for some reason keeps putting on this impression that their ignorant perceived ideas about veterinarians and the veterinary profession must be more legit than those experienced by actual veterinarians and their colleagues.

 

[Sciencenerd10]

We need a meme for when a prevet asks a question, doesn't like the answers provided by multiple vets and vet students, and for some reason keeps putting on this impression that their ignorant perceived ideas about veterinarians and the veterinary profession must be more legit than those experienced by actual veterinarians and their colleagues.

What is this referring to in regards to this thread?

 

[deleted498041]

That is interesting. I considered going down the orthopedic surgeon specialty route. It would be cool to do both. You could essentially rehabilitate the patients you previously did surgery on.

I can at least give you insight on this because I spent all summer with a dual-boarded DACVS, DACVSMR. She had just passed her rehab boards when I got to the hospital. She didn't rehab her patients because the hospital didn't have rehab facilities (underwater treadmill, those ball things for balance, etc) but her discharge instructions included a lot of exercises for the post-operative period to help her patients. I would imagine the being a rehab specialist would be really helpful if you had the appropriate equipment in your hospital but even in the hospitals I've seen with it, they didn't have rehab specialists.

 

[jmo1012]

You guys keep mentioning internship year. Are you referring to the year after I would have graduated with my DVM and then work/intern until I get a job? Why would it most likely be in emergency clinics? Don't we have a choice as to where we intern?

a vast majority of internship programs are heavily ER based. i cant think of any of my classmates that matched for an internship that aren't working a ton of ER. that's part of how you get so much experience in a year. you of course have a choice as to where you rank and try to match to, but i'd say that if you are looking to pursue any specialty, you'll be trying to match to some of the top private practice and academic internship programs. all of them are heavily ER-based.

i wish you (and others) could get a better sense of euthanasia. its really a gift that we have to offer our clients and patients. its a chance to humanely prevent and end suffering. yes, its a bummer when people want to euthanize fixable, treatable animals, but you have to think about what the alternative for that pet might be. what if instead, that family took that sick pet to a shelter where it sat in a cage for years because no one wanted to adopt an older pet with chronic health issues? what if instead, that family drove off down the road and tossed the pet out of the car forcing it to fend for itself? what if that pet injured or maimed another pet or human? there are so many potential negative outcomes. euthanasia isnt my favorite part of my job, but i dont dread it and i dont hate it, because i understand that it is a chance to end or prevent suffering. it hurts me so much more when people come in with a very sick or injured pet, and then refuse all services including euthanasia, and i know that pet is going home to suffer a horrendous death.

 

[Sciencenerd10]

I can at least give you insight on this because I spent all summer with a dual-boarded DACVS, DACVSMR. She had just passed her rehab boards when I got to the hospital. She didn't rehab her patients because the hospital didn't have rehab facilities (underwater treadmill, those ball things for balance, etc) but her discharge instructions included a lot of exercises for the post-operative period to help her patients. I would imagine the being a rehab specialist would be really helpful if you had the appropriate equipment in your hospital but even in the hospitals I've seen with it, they didn't have rehab specialists.

Thanks for the insight. I guess it really just depends on where you work. There are a few facilities around my location that are only rehab facilities. Vets and physical therapists both work at these places and all they do is the rehab component. I think they get their patients through referral. It is a pretty awesome set up!

 

[Sciencenerd10]

i wish you (and others) could get a better sense of euthanasia. its really a gift that we have to offer our clients and patients. its a chance to humanely prevent and end suffering. yes, its a bummer when people want to euthanize fixable, treatable animals, but you have to think about what the alternative for that pet might be. what if instead, that family took that sick pet to a shelter where it sat in a cage for years because no one wanted to adopt an older pet with chronic health issues? what if instead, that family drove off down the road and tossed the pet out of the car forcing it to fend for itself? what if that pet injured or maimed another pet or human? there are so many potential negative outcomes. euthanasia isnt my favorite part of my job, but i dont dread it and i dont hate it, because i understand that it is a chance to end or prevent suffering. it hurts me so much more when people come in with a very sick or injured pet, and then refuse all services including euthanasia, and i know that pet is going home to suffer a horrendous death.

It's not that I don't think euthanasia can be a gift. If death is inevitable and the animal is suffering immensely and no other treatments could alleviate their suffering, it is a way to help the animal pass over in a comfortable and gentle way. It is the thought of having to euthanize an animal that has a good chance of recovery if treated that scares me. If someone brought me their pet and there was some sort of accident and the pet needed treatment to survive but the only thing getting in the way of treatment was money, I would feel terrible euthanizing that animal. I am afraid that the guilt would follow me around everywhere. I know you can't just give away free treatments or your business will not succeed but gosh it would be so heart breaking to put to sleep an animal who's safe haven is a simple procedure that it's owners can't afford. I can just imagine the thoughts of "Fluffy could be alive and well today with her owner but because of 300 dollars they couldn't pay you, she is not" And it's not the vets fault. It is no one's fault really. It is just so unfortunate. I am afraid I would be the vet who goes broke because I pay out of pocket for every animal who's owners couldn't pay. Which is why I really prefer a field within vet med where I wont be faced with this issue as often.

 

[CalliopeDVM]

I can just imagine the thoughts of "Fluffy could be alive and well today with her owner but because of 300 dollars they couldn't pay you, she is not" And it's not the vets fault. It is no one's fault really. It is just so unfortunate. I am afraid I would be the vet who goes broke because I pay out of pocket for every animal who's owners couldn't pay. Which is why I really prefer a field within vet med where I wont be faced with this issue as often.

Think of it as "Fluffy could be suffering today with her owners, but because of you, she's not." What others do is out of your control, and if you're going to let it depress you, life will be harder.

Yes, there are other things that GP and emergency that a new grad can do (like lab animal, food safety, industry), but I wouldn't recommend something like housecall/mobile or relief work to a new grad, just like I wouldn't recommend opening a business as a new grad. A new grad still has a lot of learning to do, and working alone isn't a good way to do that (all those options are still doing GP work).

 

[dyachei]

Thank you for the recommendation! I will definitely look into this specialty.

Did any of you know anyone who graduated and directly went into a job in an area of their liking that wasn't GP or emergency? I don't mean areas that require board certification, but someone who just graduated and landed a job in an area they were hoping to work in?

Also do you know of anyone who graduated and opened their own practice immediately? I would imagine this would be nearly impossible to do with student loans hanging over your head.

Not really. It's hard to get jobs these days in specialized areas without specialized training. Also most zoos now want their vets boarded. And I focused a lot on zoo med during school. If you're thinking about doing that without internship or residency you are in for a rude awakening.

I know of 1 person that started a practice immediately. But why would you want to? Fresh out of school you are going to need mentorship and experience.

Student loans and the lack of freedom make me feel more trapped and burnt out than euthanasia. And zoo vets make less than a lot of other vets. Even when boarded.

Work life balance is more important than avoiding euthanasia. Also in the zoos I worked with there were euthanasias that were pretty common.

 

[Minnerbelle]

I never even thought of this! I wonder how you would get your name out there without working at a clinic/hospital first.

Like I said, salvage procedure for someone who couldn't get a job in most cases. It's a **** plan and I wouldn't recommend it.

 

[DVMDream]

It's not that I don't think euthanasia can be a gift. If death is inevitable and the animal is suffering immensely and no other treatments could alleviate their suffering, it is a way to help the animal pass over in a comfortable and gentle way. It is the thought of having to euthanize an animal that has a good chance of recovery if treated that scares me. If someone brought me their pet and there was some sort of accident and the pet needed treatment to survive but the only thing getting in the way of treatment was money, I would feel terrible euthanizing that animal. I am afraid that the guilt would follow me around everywhere. I know you can't just give away free treatments or your business will not succeed but gosh it would be so heart breaking to put to sleep an animal who's safe haven is a simple procedure that it's owners can't afford. I can just imagine the thoughts of "Fluffy could be alive and well today with her owner but because of 300 dollars they couldn't pay you, she is not" And it's not the vets fault. It is no one's fault really. It is just so unfortunate. I am afraid I would be the vet who goes broke because I pay out of pocket for every animal who's owners couldn't pay. Which is why I really prefer a field within vet med where I wont be faced with this issue as often.

Yeah, this is going to happen in almost every aspect of vet med in some way. You are just looking at it with the wrong mindset. Instead of the "oh if only the owner had xx amount of money, then we could have done x, y, z and Fido may still be alive", the mindset needs to be, "Fido was seriously injured and treatment was not possible, because of this instead of letting Fido die a horrible, painful death, we gave him a peaceful ending."

There are so many things that can result in this, heck we had a client with a diabetic dog who just couldn't afford the treatments anymore after losing his job. So he decided that instead of letting his pet get to the point of having bilateral cataracts and severe diabetic ketoacidosis, it was better to have his dog euthanized while he was still feeling well. Was it a crappy situation? Yes. Was it better than allowing that animal to suffer until he was really sick and basically dying himself? Hell yes.

Also, at what point do you draw the line? Sure, there is chemo available for some cancers, but what if the owner can't afford that? Then what? Is it bad to euthanize then? If not, then why is it ok to euthanize then but not when a dog has been hit by a car and has a broken pelvis the owner can't afford to fix? What about the dachshund with the herniated disc? Sure, a few thousand dollars MIGHT get him/her walking again, but what if the owner doesn't have a few thousand dollars? Is it really that bad to euthanize that dog? I mean, dog's can live in carts, many do, but what if this owner doesn't have the time to dedicate to that? What if this dog's bladder needs to be manually expressed multiple times during the day because of the herniated disc? What if it is opposite and this dog leaks urine constantly and because the owner doesn't have time the dog regularly lies in its own urine and ends up with urine scald all down its hind limbs and belly? There is so much more to each and every scenario that you can be presented with that might end in an economic euthanasia than just the very simplistic thought of, "well this could maybe be fixed, but the owner can't afford it." Nothing in veterinary medicine is a guarantee to fix anything. Even something as simple as a fracture repair is not a complete guarantee that everything will go well.

 

[Sciencenerd10]

Not really. It's hard to get jobs these days in specialized areas without specialized training. Also most zoos now want their vets boarded. And I focused a lot on zoo med during school. If you're thinking about doing that without internship or residency you are in for a rude awakening.

I know of 1 person that started a practice immediately. But why would you want to? Fresh out of school you are going to need mentorship and experience.

Student loans and the lack of freedom make me feel more trapped and burnt out than euthanasia. And zoo vets make less than a lot of other vets. Even when boarded.

Work life balance is more important than avoiding euthanasia. Also in the zoos I worked with there were euthanasias that were pretty common.

If you are interning for zoo med would that be the only place you intern? Or would they send you through several other fields of vet med during this intern year?

You are right, having a mentor straight out of school would be better before jumping right into private practice. I would want to start my own fairly soon though if I stayed in GP. The vets I have spoken to in person said they felt like they were not respected as doctors working in offices as associates. They wanted more freedom to do things their way.

 

[Minnerbelle]

It's not that I don't think euthanasia can be a gift. If death is inevitable and the animal is suffering immensely and no other treatments could alleviate their suffering, it is a way to help the animal pass over in a comfortable and gentle way. It is the thought of having to euthanize an animal that has a good chance of recovery if treated that scares me. If someone brought me their pet and there was some sort of accident and the pet needed treatment to survive but the only thing getting in the way of treatment was money, I would feel terrible euthanizing that animal. I am afraid that the guilt would follow me around everywhere. I know you can't just give away free treatments or your business will not succeed but gosh it would be so heart breaking to put to sleep an animal who's safe haven is a simple procedure that it's owners can't afford. I can just imagine the thoughts of "Fluffy could be alive and well today with her owner but because of 300 dollars they couldn't pay you, she is not" And it's not the vets fault. It is no one's fault really. It is just so unfortunate. I am afraid I would be the vet who goes broke because I pay out of pocket for every animal who's owners couldn't pay. Which is why I really prefer a field within vet med where I wont be faced with this issue as often.

The sentiment embodies in this post actually more than anything else you've said makes me think you either don't understand enough about to profession to make an informed decision, or that you truly aren't cut out for it (even in a job that requires little euthanasia).

Essentially you don't like that money is involved in your clinical decisions. Unfortunately this is true no matter what you do as a clinician in vet med for the most part. Actually, when money is an issue, it is waaay sadder when euthanasia is off the table.

 

[Sciencenerd10]

Actually, when money is an issue, it is waaay sadder when euthanasia is off the table.

Can you elaborate? I am not sure I understand what you mean. Isn't euthanasia always an option in vet medicine?

 

[Sciencenerd10]

Yeah, this is going to happen in almost every aspect of vet med in some way. You are just looking at it with the wrong mindset. Instead of the "oh if only the owner had xx amount of money, then we could have done x, y, z and Fido may still be alive", the mindset needs to be, "Fido was seriously injured and treatment was not possible, because of this instead of letting Fido die a horrible, painful death, we gave him a peaceful ending."

There are so many things that can result in this, heck we had a client with a diabetic dog who just couldn't afford the treatments anymore after losing his job. So he decided that instead of letting his pet get to the point of having bilateral cataracts and severe diabetic ketoacidosis, it was better to have his dog euthanized while he was still feeling well. Was it a crappy situation? Yes. Was it better than allowing that animal to suffer until he was really sick and basically dying himself? Hell yes.

Also, at what point do you draw the line? Sure, there is chemo available for some cancers, but what if the owner can't afford that? Then what? Is it bad to euthanize then? If not, then why is it ok to euthanize then but not when a dog has been hit by a car and has a broken pelvis the owner can't afford to fix? What about the dachshund with the herniated disc? Sure, a few thousand dollars MIGHT get him/her walking again, but what if the owner doesn't have a few thousand dollars? Is it really that bad to euthanize that dog? I mean, dog's can live in carts, many do, but what if this owner doesn't have the time to dedicate to that? What if this dog's bladder needs to be manually expressed multiple times during the day because of the herniated disc? What if it is opposite and this dog leaks urine constantly and because the owner doesn't have time the dog regularly lies in its own urine and ends up with urine scald all down its hind limbs and belly? There is so much more to each and every scenario that you can be presented with that might end in an economic euthanasia than just the very simplistic thought of, "well this could maybe be fixed, but the owner can't afford it." Nothing in veterinary medicine is a guarantee to fix anything. Even something as simple as a fracture repair is not a complete guarantee that everything will go well.

I like this perspective you give. I think it is about whether or not I can change my mindset about it. If I could adopt a different mindset perhaps it would not disturb me quite as bad.

 

[DVMDream]

Can you elaborate? I am not sure I understand what you mean. Isn't euthanasia always an option in vet medicine?

Clients dictate what happens. Sometimes, clients refuse euthanasia and take pets home, where they many times die awful, horrible and painful deaths.

Example: Client I worked with one time who refused to euthanize her puppy with parvo, she didn't have money for treatment. We offered a courtesy (free) euthanasia so the puppy didn't have to suffer. She wouldn't allow it. I can't imagine the pain that puppy went through as it's intestinal lining sloughed away and it became septic... so much worse than euthanasia.

 

[Minnerbelle]

Clients dictate what happens. Sometimes, clients refuse euthanasia and take pets home, where they many times die awful, horrible and painful deaths.

Example: Client I worked with one time who refused to euthanize her puppy with parvo, she didn't have money for treatment. We offered a courtesy (free) euthanasia so the puppy didn't have to suffer. She wouldn't allow it. I can't imagine the pain that puppy went through as it's intestinal lining sloughed away and it became septic... so much worse than euthanasia.

Totally an aside.
Unless the parvo puppy is already close to death, I do outpatient care with them and many survive. They certainly do suffer for a few days as their intestinal lining gets sloughed away, but they can make a full recovery and live a happy healthy life after that. If you haven't seen it, check out the CSU parvo protocol. Essentially with aggressive SQ fluid therapy, Convenia, cerenia, and a/d food, many actually survive. It sucks if they do die, but if the owners are into home therapy, I think it's worth trying.

http://csu-cvmbs.colostate.edu/documents/parvo-outpatient-protocol-faq-companion-animal-studies.pdf

 

[WildZoo]

Actually, when money is an issue, it is waaay sadder when euthanasia is off the table.

Case in point, client couldn't afford treatment for her cat's oral cancer beyond fluids a couple times a week and refused euthanasia. That cat suffered for months and months with a growing tumor until she could barely eat and eventually just started bleeding from her mouth. At that point the owner finally decided to euthanize.

 

[Minnerbelle]

Case in point, client couldn't afford treatment for her cat's oral cancer beyond fluids a couple times a week and refused euthanasia. That cat suffered for months and months with a growing tumor until she could barely eat and eventually just started bleeding from her mouth. At that point the owner finally decided to euthanize.

Oral SSC in cats are super painful too... Poor kitty

 

[DVMDream]

Totally an aside.
Unless the parvo puppy is already close to death, I do outpatient care with them and many survive. They certainly do suffer for a few days as their intestinal lining gets sloughed away, but they can make a full recovery and live a happy healthy life after that. If you haven't seen it, check out the CSU parvo protocol. Essentially with aggressive SQ fluid therapy, Convenia, cerenia, and a/d food, many actually survive. It sucks if they do die, but if the owners are into home therapy, I think it's worth trying.

http://csu-cvmbs.colostate.edu/documents/parvo-outpatient-protocol-faq-companion-animal-studies.pdf

Yeah, we offered outpatient treatments as an option too (though told her it was highly unlikely to help given the puppy's condition and that in hospital treatment or euth were better options), but she didn't have the $ for that either. One of those, "I have $20, why can't you fix my dog?!?!"

This particular puppy was basically dying at that point. Lateral, barely responsive, agonal breathing. It was heartbreaking.

 

[Sciencenerd10]

The sentiment embodies in this post actually more than anything else you've said makes me think you either don't understand enough about to profession to make an informed decision, or that you truly aren't cut out for it (even in a job that requires little euthanasia).

I don't currently know enough about the profession to make an informed decision. That is why I am taking a year off to gain more experience. That is also why I am asking in depth questions about the profession.

We need a meme for when a prevet asks a question, doesn't like the answers provided by multiple vets and vet students, and for some reason keeps putting on this impression that their ignorant perceived ideas about veterinarians and the veterinary profession must be more legit than those experienced by actual veterinarians and their colleagues.

And back to this comment...How am I putting on an impression that my "ignorant perceived ideas" about the profession are more legit than the advice given by vets on this forum? When I ask about where the information they are providing comes from or if they have worked in that specialty themselves, it is not to imply they aren't giving legitimate advice or that my ideas are "more legit". I ask these questions because if they did work in that specialty I would PM them asking for more details about their experience in that field. I am not trying to step on toes here...I am genuinely trying to learn as much as I can about this profession.


Another question for everyone. Say you do have a patient that has cancer, and their owner can't afford chemo. Are there other options besides euthanasia? Can you send the patient home with pain medication to make them comfortable, and they pass on naturally like some humans do?

Case in point, client couldn't afford treatment for her cat's oral cancer beyond fluids a couple times a week and refused euthanasia. That cat suffered for months and months with a growing tumor until she could barely eat and eventually just started bleeding from her mouth. At that point the owner finally decided to euthanize.

In cases like this where the client doesn't want euthanasia, do you ever provide pain medications at no cost to help the animal so they don't suffer?

 

[WildZoo]

Also had a crazy cat lady whose cats frequently became ill for one reason or another (she had some ungodly number living in her house and on her property) and no matter how much they were suffering she never, ever allowed euthanasia. It was horrible.

 

[WildZoo]

In cases like this where the client doesn't want euthanasia, do you ever provide pain medications at no cost to help the animal so they don't suffer?

I'm not sure if that was ever offered or if the owner would have accepted. That particular cat...good luck getting any kind of pill into her. Getting the fluids done was bad enough - she was a mean cat even before she was in any pain.

 

[DVMDream]

I don't currently know enough about the profession to make an informed decision. That is why I am taking a year off to gain more experience. That is also why I am asking in depth questions about the profession.



And back to this comment...How am I putting on an impression that my "ignorant perceived ideas" about the profession are more legit than the advice given by vets on this forum? When I ask about where the information they are providing comes from or if they have worked in that specialty themselves, it is not to imply they aren't giving legitimate advice or that my ideas are "more legit". I ask these questions because if they did work in that specialty I would PM them asking for more details about their experience in that field. I am not trying to step on toes here...I am genuinely trying to learn as much as I can about this profession.


Another question for everyone. Say you do have a patient that has cancer, and their owner can't afford chemo. Are there other options besides euthanasia? Can you send the patient home with pain medication to make them comfortable, and they pass on naturally like some humans do?



In cases like this where the client doesn't want euthanasia, do you ever provide pain medications at no cost to help the animal so they don't suffer?

Euthanasia is always better than "natural death".... outside the weird, random ones where the animals drop dead with no prior symptoms. I mean, you can provide palliative options. Pain meds while the pet is still having decent quality of life. Amputation for the dog with osteosarcoma. You don't have to euth the day you diagnose the dog with cancer. But discussing quality of life with the owner and when it is time to consider euthanasia are also important.

Providing good pain control for a dying patient with end stage cancer, would take IV catheters and CRI's, these aren't possible to do at home. I'd honestly rather see human med provide euthanasia for people that are dying rather than vets changing up what we do.

 

[WildZoo]

Oral SSC in cats are super painful too... Poor kitty

She boarded with us for a month while the owner was on vacation, it was heartbreaking to see her every day in the condition she was in and be unable to do anything about it.

 

[Sciencenerd10]

Euthanasia is always better than "natural death".... outside the weird, random ones where the animals drop dead with no prior symptoms.

Providing good pain control for a dying patient would take IV catheters and CRI's, these aren't possible to do at home. I'd honestly rather see human med provide euthanasia for people that are dying rather than vets changing up what we do.

That is really sad. Are there no oral pain medications that can be given to a pet with cancer or other conditions? Are they just not a good option?

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

Another question for everyone. Say you do have a patient that has cancer, and their owner can't afford chemo. Are there other options besides euthanasia? Can you send the patient home with pain medication to make them comfortable, and they pass on naturally like some humans do?



In cases like this where the client doesn't want euthanasia, do you ever provide pain medications at no cost to help the animal so they don't suffer?

Where is the money going to come from to supply pain medication for months on end to this cat? Out of the clinics' rent money? The electric? Out of your technicians salary? If you are doing it for this cat, why not that dog with osteosarcoma? What not that other cat with some other condition? How many things are you going to give away for free?

As an aside - the romantic idea of "passing naturally at home" rarely happens in a quick or painless way. "Natural death" is nasty, awful business. I would much rather be humanely euthanized than spend my last moments at home, covered in my own piss and ****, seizuring, breathing agonally as my organs "naturally" shut down completely, etc.

 

[DVMDream]

That is really sad. Are there no oral pain medications that can be given to a pet with cancer or other conditions? Are they just not a good option?

They aren't going to adequately control the pain associated with dying. Not only that, how are you getting this medication into this animal that may not be eating anymore, may not be drinking and may have even lost the ability to swallow as they "die"??

 

[DVMDream]

That is really sad. Are there no oral pain medications that can be given to a pet with cancer or other conditions? Are they just not a good option?

Have you ever watched a person or animal die "naturally"?

 

[Sciencenerd10]

Where is the money going to come from to supply pain medication for months on end to this cat? Out of the clinics' rent money? The electric? Out of your technicians salary? If you are doing it for this cat, why not that dog with osteosarcoma? What not that other cat with some other condition? How many things are you going to give away for free?

As an aside - the romantic idea of "passing naturally at home" rarely happens in a quick or painless way. "Natural death" is nasty, awful business. I would much rather be humanely euthanized than spend my last moments at home, covered in my own piss and ****, breathing agonally as my organs "naturally" shut down completely, etc.

I didn't know if they would offer free pain medication since the owner didn't want to euthanize. Like another person mentioned their office offered free euthanasia to the puppy with parvo because the owner didn't have the money.