Euthanasia

[doctor73]

I have heard that just about every school asks your opinion about euthanasia (during the interviews). I'm extremely opposed to euthanizing animals (for reasons that need not be discussed here). I was wondering, based on your experience, is this opinion frowned upon? I feel that if I share my true belief I'll never get into veterinary school.

Also, in your school, how are the classes structured for those people who don't want to perform euthanasia or deal with surgeries ending in the purposeful death of the animal? Would I be an "outcast" if I don't believe in euthanizing animals?

Thanks.

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[AuburnPreVet]

You don't believe in any euthanasia? If so, that would be an issue... on many fronts.
Elective euthanasia/terminal procedures are one thing -- but if you object to euthanasia all together it's going to be a rough ride for you.

 

[ri23]

I have heard that just about every school asks your opinion about euthanasia (during the interviews). I’m extremely opposed to euthanizing animals (for reasons that need not be discussed here). I was wondering, based on your experience, is this opinion frowned upon? I feel that if I share my true belief I’ll never get into veterinary school.

Also, in your school, how are the classes structured for those people who don’t want to perform euthanasia or deal with surgeries ending in the purposeful death of the animal? Would I be an "outcast" if I don't believe in euthanizing animals?

Thanks.

Pretty much, yes. Most schools, from my observations, seem to frown upon people that are opposed to euthanasia, as it's a huge part of the job. As was stated, being opposed to convenience euthanasias is fine, but as for the rest, you are probably going to be expected to participate.

It's interesting that you brought that up today, because one of the free publications that we get is an animal rights thing and in it it talked about a girl that went to Ross and is now very upset that they have to work on euthanized animals and do terminal surgeries (you would think that she would have researched this). She is trying to switch to a mainland school (I think this would be extremely doubtful. The article insulted Ross for not trying to get alternative programs for her, but in my opinion it's part of the job and she really should have looked into that a little before applying to vet school.

 

[dyachei]

I agree with the other replies. Being against all euthanasia is probably going to hurt your chances to some degree. However, I know that at UTK you have the option not to take any classes with terminal surgeries.

 

[doctor73]

Perhaps I need to rephrase just a tad bit here to see if your response changes:

I personally am unwilling to kill (euthanize) an animal or participate in terminal procedures. But you are all telling me (correct me if I'm wrong) that there are procedures that are performed on already dead (euthanized) animals, which would not be a problem for me.

 

[StealthDog]

Many schools now offer alternatives to courses that contain terminal surgeries. For example, at the U of MN, you can do two terminal surgeries or you can observe four surgeries being performed at the teaching hospital and write up case reports.

I would think that it would be a moral conflict to not be willing to euthanize, but still be willing to utilize animals that someone else euthanized. Maybe that's a little unfair to say (like saying that if you couldn't kill a cow yourself, you shouldn't eat any beef), but still, if the opposition is to the act of euthanasia, I don't know how you could morally justify your cadaver animals, etc.

You will have significant problems finding a job if you are completely unwilling to perform euthanasia. It is not just "killing" after all- it's one of the most sacred acts we can perform to alleviate suffering.

 

[laurafinn]

I personally am unwilling to kill (euthanize) an animal or participate in terminal procedures.

I guess I just don't see how you could work as a vet and not euthanize animals. Euthanasia, like StealthDog said, is a gift. It is never to be taken lightly, but it is sometimes the only thing we can do to alleviate suffering.

If you do not want to participate in euthanasia, I'd strongly suggest you go into human medicine. Or anything besides vet med.

 

[julieDVM]

to be perfectly blunt, and honest: if you are unwilling to perform this procedure then you have no business being a veterinarian.

 

[silverelf]

to be perfectly blunt, and honest: if you are unwilling to perform this procedure then you have no business being a veterinarian.

seconded.

not wanting to perform terminal surgeries is legitimate...most schools are in the process of doing away with them...but you will never be hired if you refuse to perform euthansias. Find a new career, and I hope your own dogs don't end up suffering because you will at the end of the day refuse to put them out of their misery.

 

[Bill59]

to be perfectly blunt, and honest: if you are unwilling to perform this procedure then you have no business being a veterinarian.

... which is why this attitude is frowned on by veterinary schools.

For example, it's fine if someone is opposed to birth control. That person just shouldn't be a gynecologist.

And its OK if someone is personally opposed to euthanasia ... as long as that person isn't a veterinarian in clinical practice, where they would be unwilling to provide a service that will be wanted at some point by your clients and desperately needed by a number of your patients,

 

[doctor73]

You all seem to see euthanasia as a sacred act. I can completely see your point from the "end the suffering" POV. On the other hand though, there are several arguments against this:

If you are religious:

No human has the right to play God and decide when someone/thing is going to die, especially if they can't tell you if they want to or not.

If you aren't religious:

Birth is a painful experience for the child/puppy/etc, you don't kill it then, do you? Death is just the completion of a life cycle.

Another problem with euthanasia is that it's beyond my comprehension why and MD can train to treat humans, without having to euthanize anyone or breed humans and kill them for science or pick up homeless people and perform terminal surgeries on them, yet a veterinarian cannot train to get basically the same skills the humans doctors use without euthanizing or killing animals in the name of science?

A doctor's job after all, is to treat and (hopefully) cure problems, and to alleviate pain. I don't know of any oath anywhere in the world that states that a doctor's job is to kill as well...maybe I'm wrong, but I thought that was the job of an executioner.

Maybe if you all can explain these things it'd make it easier for me.

Thanks

 

[AuburnPreVet]

If that is how you feel about euthanasia, why put yourself through all of this? Just do something else... and make your life a whole lot easier.

If we could only euthanize people we'd be getting somewhere.

 

[OsuVet2010]

For one thing, you are not playing God!!! You are alleviating the suffering of an animal. If you don't understand this basic fact, then you need to spend more time in a practice. I would not perform a convenience euthanasia, BUT I would never refuse to perform (well assist for now) a euthanasia . It is a very difficult situation for the owners, and most come in crying and are very upset, but they are also VERY grateful that as a veterinarian you can help their pet and alleviate his/her suffering.
I had to go through this with my own pet, and I can honestly tell you that it is a very difficult decision, but I never regretted it.
I agree with the others in this thread...if you won't perform a euthanasia then don't become a veterinarian!

 

[dyachei]

You all seem to see euthanasia as a sacred act. I can completely see your point from the “end the suffering” POV. On the other hand though, there are several arguments against this:

If you are religious:

No human has the right to play God and decide when someone/thing is going to die, especially if they can’t tell you if they want to or not.

If you aren’t religious:

Birth is a painful experience for the child/puppy/etc, you don’t kill it then, do you? Death is just the completion of a life cycle.

Another problem with euthanasia is that it’s beyond my comprehension why and MD can train to treat humans, without having to euthanize anyone or breed humans and kill them for science or pick up homeless people and perform terminal surgeries on them, yet a veterinarian cannot train to get basically the same skills the humans doctors use without euthanizing or killing animals in the name of science?

A doctor's job after all, is to treat and (hopefully) cure problems, and to alleviate pain. I don't know of any oath anywhere in the world that states that a doctor's job is to kill as well...maybe I'm wrong, but I thought that was the job of an executioner.

Maybe if you all can explain these things it’d make it easier for me.

Thanks

Most people have already told you that vet schools are working on having fewer to no terminal surgeries. It takes a changing of the times to get there, but they are.

However, the vet's oath starts with the alleviation of suffering. I've personally seen a number of animals that would love to just die (and people too, for that matter) but because of medicine, they don't. At least as a vet, you have the option to alleviate that suffering instead of causing more.

As for the religious point of view, isn't most medicine meant to extend life expectancy and quality of life. Doesn't that seem like playing god to you? Or is it just the actual taking of a life? Because you can't have it both ways. By having preventative medicine, you could make the argument you are playing god. By having antibiotics, you can make the same argument (and you kill microorganisms there).

Birth is a painful process....one that is temporary. There are many conditions that are not temporary and are extremely painful. The quality of life means something.

There are always going to be arguments, but the bottom line is this. If you are going to be a vet, you will have to perform euthanasia. if you can't deal with that, then please, pursue a different path.

 

[julieDVM]

I'm sorry (and i feel really strongly about this) - but if we have to explain to you the value and merits of euthanasia, then you have not done your homework into the depths of our field of medicine. Suffice as to say - training you to be a veterinarian (with your current beliefs about euthanasia) would be doing our profession, our patients and our clients, a disservice.

 

[StealthDog]

No human has the right to play God and decide when someone/thing is going to die, especially if they can't tell you if they want to or not.

If choosing when an animal is going to die is playing God, then the prevention of death (through medicine, surgery, etc) is as well.

There are many many ways to enhance animal life without becoming a vet... I suggest you do some soul-searching and consider exploring other options.

 

[frozen_canadian]

If choosing when an animal is going to die is playing God, then the prevention of death (through medicine, surgery, etc) is as well.

Just wanted to add that I second this. Great point and one often overlooked by people who think like the OP.

 

[vegternarian]

You all seem to see euthanasia as a sacred act. I can completely see your point from the “end the suffering” POV. On the other hand though, there are several arguments against this:

If you are religious:

No human has the right to play God and decide when someone/thing is going to die, especially if they can’t tell you if they want to or not.

If you aren’t religious:

Birth is a painful experience for the child/puppy/etc, you don’t kill it then, do you? Death is just the completion of a life cycle.

Another problem with euthanasia is that it’s beyond my comprehension why and MD can train to treat humans, without having to euthanize anyone or breed humans and kill them for science or pick up homeless people and perform terminal surgeries on them, yet a veterinarian cannot train to get basically the same skills the humans doctors use without euthanizing or killing animals in the name of science?

A doctor's job after all, is to treat and (hopefully) cure problems, and to alleviate pain. I don't know of any oath anywhere in the world that states that a doctor's job is to kill as well...maybe I'm wrong, but I thought that was the job of an executioner.

Maybe if you all can explain these things it’d make it easier for me.

Thanks

I know this forum is for vet students but I couldn't help weighing in.

Veterinarians euthanize because sometimes it is more merciful to put an animal down than to keep it alive for as long as we can in a terrible state of suffering. You bring up that MD's do not euthanize, but in some countries euthanasia of humans is legal. We've come to a point in medicine where we can extend a life out to a previously unimaginable end, and that has forced us to think about changing paradigms about what is right and wrong when it comes to healing.

In human medicine, every human has the right to treatment of disease. Animals do not have the legal right to be treated if they don't have money. I worked emergency for a while and we had a good samaritan kitten come in with its femur broken and sticking out of the skin. It was wide-eyed and shocky, a real sad case. If you were the veterinarian and you couldn't treat the animal, what would you have done? Throw it in a cage where it can suffer for hours, maybe longer before it finally succumbs? This, friend, is not an act of compassion and is not the act of a healer.

 

[Bill59]

Maybe if you all can explain these things it’d make it easier for me.

Maybe a patient I saw a few days ago will help.

14 year old Scottish terrier with a recent onset of seizures and dementia. Despite medication the seizures are becoming more frequent and the dementia is worsening.

An MRI shows an aggressive tumor in the nose that has eaten through the skull into the brain. There is no way you can remove this with surgery. Radiation therapy might slow it down a bit, but it’s probably a coin flip whether the dog will survive the 5 weeks of therapy and the end result will be the same.

The owner got this little guy as a puppy and has provided excellent care for him all his life. Right now she stays up most of the night trying to comfort him because he gets very anxious at night and she’s worried he will have a seizure. Although she’s not rich, she says she would do anything that would have a reasonable chance to fix him. She says, “He’s been a great friend for 14 years and he’s always been such a happy dog. But now he doesn’t seem happy any more. He looks at me like he doesn’t understand why I’m not helping him.”

Choice #1 is to watch this little guy for the next few weeks to months as he paces aimlessly around the house, stopping only to suffer a seizure. Eventually the tumor gets big enough that the pressure forces the brain out the back of the skull, pushing on the brainstem enough that he quits breathing and suffocates.

Choice #2 is to administer an overdose of anesthetic while his owner holds him one last time; helping him like she thinks he wants, by ending his misery.


Your call.

 

[Serendipity4]

Doctor73, as a fellow person who considers themselves religious, let me first tell you that when I was younger I SWORE I was going to be a vet and that under no circumstances would I euthanize an animal. I went through some of the same thinking as you seem to be going through: is it playing God to decide if an animal should die and to subsequently 'cause' their death? I want to be a vet, thus I want to help animals, not hurt them. Clearly killing an animal is hurting them... or is it?

Here's the problem, I think if I truly believed humanely euthanizing an animal (for valid reasons) was playing God, then I'd also have to believe treating an animal for any kind of an illness is playing God also (as other people have suggested on this board). If God chooses when an animal should die, does God also choose when an animal should get sick? And if He does, should we go against His plan by treating the animal? It seems clear to me now that this line of thinking would result in me not becoming a vet at all.

Additionally, I've seen those cases like Bill described where you can clearly tell the animal is suffering. There's a good chance the medicine we've given to these animals up to this point has allowed them to live to be this old, and it seems to me that now we have to take responsibility for them. And despite my strong objections when I was younger against euthanasia, I now, after having given it a ton of thought, think it absolutely is the right thing to do in some situations.

Now do those situations include convenience euthanasias? I think not, and I still plan not to do those when I'm a vet. What about a dog that is scheduled to be put down anyways, but instead a student is allowed to perform a surgery on the animal first and euthanize after the student has learned something? I think this is a personal decision, and one I'm still thinking about, to be honest. And what about when an animal is truly suffering and we can't do anything to relieve its suffering except euthanize? All I know is when I die, I want to die quickly. I don't think it would be worth it to me to live 3 months longer if that 3 months was spent in excruciating pain. Do I know for sure that the animals I might euthanize feel the same way? No. But I also don't know for sure the animal would elect to be kept alive. That's part of what it is to be a vet -- to use your knowledge and experience to make decisions for animals who can't tell you what they're feeling/what they want.

Clearly, this is a topic that raises many people's eyebrows who are in the veterinary career if it's brought up. But here's the thing. Don't decide you'll do euthanasias because everyone in the field says it's okay. That said, I'm inclined to believe euthanasia is a (albeit difficult) part of being a vet. Therefore, I would do more thinking about euthanasia and your reasons for being against it. And not just because you'll have to have a heck of an amazing answer for why you're against it when you're talking to vet schools, but because you may not want to be a vet if you'll have to deal with this conversation and with seeing animals euthanized (even if you don't perform them yourself) on a daily basis.

On one last final note to my terribly lengthy response: I don't think I'll ever be happy after I euthanize an animal. I will always be sad that the animal could not be treated back to full health, and I will always be sad for the family who has to deal with the death of their beloved pet. However, I will be grateful that I have been able to help an animal stop feeling pain, and that I have allowed a family to begin the healing process instead of forcing them to watch their pet die a slow and painful death.

Good luck on your continued soul searching!

 

[sofficat]

there is a huge difference between vet med and human med. are there 10 million people euthanized every year just because they don't have homes? if there were, then i'm pretty sure that we would utilize their bodies the same way we do with animals. at least these animals are helping educate us so that we can help other animals.

 

[sofficat]

Perhaps I need to rephrase just a tad bit here to see if your response changes:

I personally am unwilling to kill (euthanize) an animal or participate in terminal procedures. But you are all telling me (correct me if I'm wrong) that there are procedures that are performed on already dead (euthanized) animals, which would not be a problem for me.

haha! so if you don't 'push the button' then it is ok?

 

[chris03333]

Another problem with euthanasia is that it’s beyond my comprehension why and MD can train to treat humans, without having to euthanize anyone
Thanks

Hate to have to break the news to you but trust me med schools euthanize animals almost daily for training of MD's.

 

[Electrophile]

haha! so if you don't 'push the button' then it is ok?

Sofficat FTW.

 

[kate_g]

I have heard that just about every school asks your opinion about euthanasia (during the interviews). I'm extremely opposed to euthanizing animals (for reasons that need not be discussed here). I was wondering, based on your experience, is this opinion frowned upon?

The rest of the discussion on the merits of euthanasia aside, from the point of view "passing" the interview... Strong beliefs are probably OK. Unwillingness to have those beliefs challenged... not so much. Dogged closed-mindedness on *any* subject is frowned upon, not just euthanasia (e.g. how do you feel about "cosmetic surgery" such as declawing, tail docking, ear cropping, dehorning...). We've been told quite a number of times just in the first month of school that our personal, moral, and ethical opinions will be tested frequently over the next four years, and we need to be ready to think through situations critically but objectively, and be willing to have our beliefs change in the face of new information. You may fare badly in the interview if you don't seem like the kind of person who can adapt to the sort of moral/ethical pressure you'll experience as a vet student and practicing veterinarian.

And FWIW I wasn't asked my opinion about euthanasia - medically motivated, shelter practice, or "convenience" - in any interview.

 

[pressmom]

And FWIW I wasn't asked my opinion about euthanasia - medically motivated, shelter practice, or "convenience" - in any interview.

That's different than my experience. I was asked about it at all three interviews I went to.

 

[JIKJen124]

That's different than my experience. I was asked about it at all three interviews I went to.

I think it came up in 4 of 5 that I went to.

 

[silverelf]

(e.g. how do you feel about "cosmetic surgery" such as declawing, tail docking, ear cropping, dehorning...)

please don't lump dehorning in that category....its not cosmetic, its a safety issue...

 

[Nexx]

Wow, every once in a while I manage to forget how quickly everyone here can turn on someone for having a different opinion.

Yes, euthanasia can be a big part of veterinary medicine. It can also play hardly any role. How's that you ask?

Well Veterinary Medicine is not simply working in small or large animal practices. Haven't they started to drill that into you all yet or haven't you stopped to think about that yourselves? It just may be possible for someone to want to better animal welfare and not actually be working in a clinic. We need people to create vaccines, we need people to read our pathology slides, we need people to teach new students as they come in, there are literally hundreds of career paths to choose from and many of you are coming down in this person like he is the one being narrow-minded with regards to euthanasia.

But you know what I have a feeling that doctor73 probably isn't a fan of abortion or the death penalty either and at least is sticking to a consistent moral base.

Main point being, try to keep the discussion open without being jerks since your narrow view of veterinary medicine doesn't coincide with someone else's views (even if you think they are equally narrow-minded)

 

[Electrophile]

Point taken, Nexx, but the truth of the matter is that in veterinary medicine, it's likely going to be somewhere on the chain where an animal will be required to be euthanized. For instance, if you work in a pathology lab or you work for a pharmaceutical company to develop vaccines and drugs, you may or may not have "pulled the trigger" to kill that animal to get the pathology slides or killed several hundred animals to yield the results for a major experiment, but it happened somewhere along the lines. So to me, IMHO, just to say that your hands are clean just cause you didn't do it yourself is not right.

To me, the argument is just like that example a few years back of the pharmacist who refused to prescribe birth control just because he morally disagreed with it. Hate to say, but that individual should have probably thought things through a little more thoroughly before taking that career path. Just as the original poster needs to think things through a little more thoroughly.

 

[sofficat]

euthanisia IS a big part of vet med, no matter what career path you choose as a DVM. govt, research, clinics, etc all have a part of using and euthanizing animals. granted, they are not all equals when it comes to our topic, but they all participate somehow. the main reason this post was created was to get our opinions regarding interviews and vet school and euth. you have to get thru vet school to become a DVM and if you can't handle euth it will probably be an issue.
plus, he asked for our opinions and we are not 'putting him down.' we are honestly giving our thoughts.

 

[birdvet2006]

you have to get thru vet school to become a DVM ...

I just had to say it - you go through vet school to become a *veterinarian* (not necessarily a DVM). Sorry for interrupting...back to the topic at hand now.

 

[ri23]

Wow, every once in a while I manage to forget how quickly everyone here can turn on someone for having a different opinion.

Yes, euthanasia can be a big part of veterinary medicine. It can also play hardly any role. How's that you ask?

Well Veterinary Medicine is not simply working in small or large animal practices. Haven't they started to drill that into you all yet or haven't you stopped to think about that yourselves? It just may be possible for someone to want to better animal welfare and not actually be working in a clinic. We need people to create vaccines, we need people to read our pathology slides, we need people to teach new students as they come in, there are literally hundreds of career paths to choose from and many of you are coming down in this person like he is the one being narrow-minded with regards to euthanasia.

But you know what I have a feeling that doctor73 probably isn't a fan of abortion or the death penalty either and at least is sticking to a consistent moral base.

Main point being, try to keep the discussion open without being jerks since your narrow view of veterinary medicine doesn't coincide with someone else's views (even if you think they are equally narrow-minded)

Everyone on here answered the question honestly, and you really have to expect that when you ask a question such as this. I'm pretty sure that all of us are aware that there are different sectors of vet med that would leave allow different exposure to euthanasia, but most facets do involve euthanasia to some degree (or using animals for experimentation). If he works in the government/public health the OP would no doubt have to euthanize animals, for research you are going to be testing products and euthanizing animals etc. The fact is that to get to some of these specialities you have to go through training that involves euthansia. That is probably why schools are hesitant to admit those that are against euthanasia.

 

[sofficat]

I just had to say it - you go through vet school to become a *veterinarian* (not necessarily a DVM). Sorry for interrupting...back to the topic at hand now.

you are correct, my friend. and to emphazise that...

vet degrees from around the world (Saunders Comp. Vet. Dictionary)
AD BS BASc BVetMed BVM BVM&AR BVMS BVM&S BVSc BVSc&AH CMV D DCV DEDV DH DK DMV DV DVE DVM IASV LMV LV LVM LW MV MVB MVD MVDr MVZ SVM T V VE VetMedB VH VL VMD VV VZSL

 

[StealthDog]

Main point being, try to keep the discussion open without being jerks since your narrow view of veterinary medicine doesn't coincide with someone else's views (even if you think they are equally narrow-minded)

I don't think anyone is trying to argue that you can't be a vet who doesn't euthanize animals. The point is that you will be exposed to euthanasia, whether you like it or not, so this will be a point you'll either have to learn to accept or learn to argue your position on very well. Frankly, the argument "Well, it's okay to learn from a euthanized animal as long as someone else does it for me" is just not gonna stand.

It's a little like being a vegetarian in vet school. Vegetarians have to sit through an awful lot of lectures about food animals, and I'm sure for many it's not easy to have to be a part of something that forces you to learn so much about something that you're morally opposed to. But there are plenty of vegetarian vets who stick with it in school because they know that once they're out, there are career paths out there that don't get anywhere near food animal medicine. I've never met vegetarian that wants their curriculum to not include anything regarding food animals.

Someone who's anti-euthanasia will have a more difficult time getting through school with their moral stance intact, and a more difficult time finding a career that doesn't involve euthanasia at all. You may find a curriculum that doesn't require you to euthanize an animal at the end of a surgery, but good luck finding one that doesn't utilize cadavers, pathology specimens, etc that were euthanized. I don't think that's a narrow view of vet med, I think it's just the way things are.

The original post asked about whether they'd make it through an interview if their interviewer discovered they were anti-euthanasia... I don't think that's as big a question as whether they'd make it through vet school, period, without some serious moral dilemmas. There are so many careers that help animals where this question wouldn't even come up... Why put yourself through a potential lifetime of moral quandaries if you don't have to?

 

[Kittenmommy]

Not a vet, not a vet student. I found my way here via a post on OTF_Wank and liked it so much that I stayed.

I watched my mother die of cancer. She was a very religious woman who did not believe in euthanasia (for people)/assisted suicide, but at the end she was begging her caretaker to kill her. And her brother is a doctor; she had all the morphine she could ever want/need for pain management, but it wasn't enough. It was still that unbearable.

Kittendaddy and I have euthanized four cats. A fifth died in my arms of a heart attack. (Oh how I loathe you, Feline HCM. Let me count the ways. )

Three of the cats we euthanized had cancer, and the other had liver/kidney failure and a host of other problems that I won't go into here.

IMO, euthanasia is the last kind thing we can do for our beloved pets. Watching my mother in her last days, I remarked to others that we are kinder to our pets than we are to our humans.

As another poster pointed out, if euthanasia is "playing God", then so is getting chemo for cancer or surgery to take out your infected tonsils. Yes, it's agony signing that consent form even though you know it's the right thing to do, the best and kindest thing to do. It's still heartbreaking.

But I wouldn't do anything differently, especially after seeing how my mother suffered.

And I know I'm going to regret asking this, but what is a "terminal surgery"? Please tell me it's not vivisection. I have a hard enough time sleeping at night.

Edited because sentences that are questions need to have question marks at the end, not periods.

 

[sofficat]

And I know I'm going to regret asking this, but what is a "terminal surgery". Please tell me it's not vivisection. I have a hard enough time sleeping at night.

terminal surgery is NOT vivisection by any means. at some schools, vet students learn how to do a surgery, perform it on a dog, then euthanize that dog. The dog is treated just like any other patient that goes through surgery... it is just euthanized in the end.
Places differ... some euth. immediately after the surgery, some recover (wake up) the dog then two days later use it for one more surgery then euth. some places use humane society dogs that are to be euth anyways, some use purpose bred (for ex... a few years back a vet student got bit by a humane society dog while doing a physical for our phys diagnostics class and the dog came up positive for rabies! needless to say, we use purpose bred dogs for our phys. diag. class now.)

 

[Kittenmommy]

terminal surgery is NOT vivisection by any means.

Thank God for that.

at some schools, vet students learn how to do a surgery, perform it on a dog, then euthanize that dog. The dog is treated just like any other patient that goes through surgery... it is just euthanized in the end.

Places differ... some euth. immediately after the surgery, some recover (wake up) the dog then two days later use it for one more surgery then euth.

Why euthanize the animal after the surgery? Why can't s/he be adopted into a loving home instead?

some places use humane society dogs that are to be euth anyways, some use purpose bred (for ex... a few years back a vet student got bit by a humane society dog while doing a physical for our phys diagnostics class and the dog came up positive for rabies! needless to say, we use purpose bred dogs for our phys. diag. class now.)

Rabies. Yikes.

Do all vets have a current rabies vaccination? It just seems like a smart thing to do if one is a vet, just like lots of doctors get vaccinated for Hepatitis.

ETA: Thanks for answering my question!

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Non-vet person here.....

In all of the helping/medical professions the general idea of 'do no harm' is present. Some people mentioned it earlier about doing what is best for the patient/animal. Though euthanasia seems to provoke the idea of killing, I think of it instead as ending the suffering of the animal. When we had to put down our dogs we had to look at the quality of life factor. Sometimes people are selfish and want to hold on even if the animal is in pain. I believe the humane thing to do is euthanize. I don't agree with euthanizing for convenience reasons, though it can be necessary for medical training, sickness, injury, etc. (Commercial testing is another whole issue).

I think it is important to look at what is needed for the profession, and what it will take to provide the proper services to your clients and their pets. Is it really humane to NOT put down an animal that is in pain?

-t

ps. It is great to see so many dedicated people going into the field, I'm sure our animals really appreciate your efforts.

 

[dyachei]

Do all vets have a current rabies vaccination? It just seems like a smart thing to do if one is a vet, just like lots of doctors get vaccinated for Hepatitis.

ETA: Thanks for answering my question!

It isn't required at UTK (I thinks), just strongly rercommended to get before clinics. Its pretty expensive though, so I'm sure some people haven't gotten one. Not sure about other schools.

 

[PAThbrd]

It isn't required at UTK (I thinks), just strongly rercommended to get before clinics. Its pretty expensive though, so I'm sure some people haven't gotten one. Not sure about other schools.

Really? I don't doubt you, I was just under the assumption that it was absolutely required for all schools. We had mass vaccinations of our class the first few weeks of 1st year. It was $420 for the 3 shot series I think. Some insurance companies will cover you though, if you tell them its for school. And Penn's student insurance plan, if you go through that, covers it.

Not fun getting shot and parting with the money, but I think Id rather go through that than rabies...

 

[pressmom]

It isn't required at UTK (I thinks), just strongly rercommended to get before clinics. Its pretty expensive though, so I'm sure some people haven't gotten one. Not sure about other schools.

I seem to remember Dr. Brace saying it's required for clinics. Although, given the animals we work with in Physical Diagnosis, I wish it were required sooner.

 

[Kittenmommy]

Really? I don't doubt you, I was just under the assumption that it was absolutely required for all schools. We had mass vaccinations of our class the first few weeks of 1st year. It was $420 for the 3 shot series I think. Some insurance companies will cover you though, if you tell them its for school. And Penn's student insurance plan, if you go through that, covers it.

So, it's only three shots now? When I was a kid, it was a series of shots in the stomach. In fact, we used to terrorize each other with stories of Some Kid* who got bitten by a raccoon and had to get the shots.

Not fun getting shot and parting with the money, but I think Id rather go through that than rabies...

Personally, I think I'd rather not get shot.


*Now that I think of it, Some Kid must have been a relative of the infamous Some Guy from the Things I Learned From My Patients thread over in the Emergency Medicine forum. It seems that although no one had ever actually seen or met Some Kid, everyone knew of/about him/her, and his/her (mis)adventures were legendary.

 

[Bill59]

Why euthanize the animal after the surgery? Why can't s/he be adopted into a loving home instead?

Several reasons. They are euthanized at the end of the procedure while still under anesthesia to avoid the pain and stress of recovering from surgery. Although there are a lot of potential educational benefits of recovery surgery, these days it would be very difficult to get approval for student-performed invasive procedures in laboratory dogs and cats in which the animal recovered from anesthesia.

These are usually purpose-bred laboratory animals because of the problems with using shelter animals. There would be a host of logistical and legal issues if veterinary schools started adopting these animals out.

Not to mention several million dogs and cats are euthanized yearly in the US because their are not enough good homes.

 

[Kittenmommy]

Several reasons. They are euthanized at the end of the procedure while still under anesthesia to avoid the pain and stress of recovering from surgery. Although there are a lot of potential educational benefits of recovery surgery, these days it would be very difficult to get approval for student-performed invasive procedures in laboratory dogs and cats in which the animal recovered from anesthesia.

These are usually purpose-bred laboratory animals because of the problems with using shelter animals. There would be a host of logistical and legal issues if veterinary schools started adopting these animals out.

Not to mention several million dogs and cats are euthanized yearly in the US because their are not enough good homes.

Your post made me so sad.

But thanks for answering my question.

 

[ri23]

So, it's only three shots now? When I was a kid, it was a series of shots in the stomach. In fact, we used to terrorize each other with stories of Some Kid* who got bitten by a raccoon and had to get the shots.

Those are the shots you get after exposure to rabies, which are different than the pre-exposure vaccinations.

As for the part about finding the animals homes, most of the time these are animals that are going to be euthanized in shelters because they couldn't find them homes. They are just being practical and utilizing them as surgery practice before they are euthanized.

 

[Kittenmommy]

As for the part about finding the animals homes, most of the time these are animals that are going to be euthanized in shelters because they couldn't find them homes. They are just being practical and utilizing them as surgery practice before they are euthanized.

I know. It still makes me sad, though.

 

[dyachei]

I seem to remember Dr. Brace saying it's required for clinics. Although, given the animals we work with in Physical Diagnosis, I wish it were required sooner.

I asked Ms. Shepherd about it when I applied and she insinuated it was optional. I also don't remember Dr. Brace saying it was required. But like I said, I could be wrong. And we are allowed to currently be in the clinics areas without it as well as PD lab.

 

[birdvet2006]

Really? I don't doubt you, I was just under the assumption that it was absolutely required for all schools.

In the UK, and probably in Australia, where rabies is eradicated - for vet school there is no requirement or even recommendation for a series of rabies vaccines. I requested these vaccines from my student health center, a series of 3 for about 60-65 pounds per vaccine (roughly US $200-300 at that time). I did this because I was going on a RAVS trip in the USA, and on native American reservations there are often unvaccinated dogs.

 

[Kittenmommy]

In the UK, and probably in Australia, where rabies is eradicated - for vet school there is no requirement or even recommendation for a series of rabies vaccines. I requested these vaccines from my student health center, a series of 3 for about 60-65 pounds per vaccine (roughly US $200-300 at that time). I did this because I was going on a RAVS trip in the USA, and on native American reservations there are often unvaccinated dogs.

I think that getting a rabies vaccination if you're going to work with animals in any capacity is probably a pretty smart thing to do, no matter where you're located. It's just common sense.