I didnt look at the SLOE, if this is true then I agree with you and I dislike it. I was one of those people with a Top10% check in 2 SLORs and ranked as very competitive(2x) in the match section, I really feel those are what made me very competitive and successful in the EM match. (especially since I had two PDs fill them out from separate programs.) Getting rid of that I feel will lead to a disadvantage for students that really shine on rotations.
Emergency Medicine 2013-2014 Residency Cycle
- Thread starter mohands701
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I didnt look at the SLOE, if this is true then I agree with you and I dislike it. I was one of those people with a Top10% check in 2 SLORs and ranked as very competitive(2x) in the match section, I really feel those are what made me very competitive and successful in the EM match. (especially since I had two PDs fill them out from separate programs.) Getting rid of that I feel will lead to a disadvantage for students that really shine on rotations.
Given the changes, do you think the SLOR will move towards more of a LOR coversheet (so the LOR ends up being the SLOR plus a third sheet) instead of a LOR in and of itself?
Yup, that's exactly my thought. Making so the top end doesn't stand out as much... that's my take. Means that the people with super high scores will continue to thrive no matter how they perform clinically and the ones with lower board scores have nowhere to really make up ground since the "outstanding" clinical performers will now be just "top 1/3". Disappointing.
Not sure. In theory, the writers could just violate the 250 word max and keep typing to their hearts content but if the SLOE is submitted in an online application it might actually have a "word limiter" or whatever you want to call it that keeps them from writing more. Then it really would require an extra sheet for the writer to get their point across but would ERAS (and programs) count that as 2 LORs or just 1? My guess is 2. I don't understand the point of these changes personally...
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I know when we start a showcase rotation, we should go talk to the secretary or admin assistant to adjust our schedule. Who are the best/ most important people to make sure you spend a few shifts with?
Showcase rotation?
Lol, the showcase showdown!
Now I guess I need to start watching the retail prices of blenders, hot tubs, and A NEEEEWWWW CAAAAARRRR!!!!! if I wanna win a spot.Make contact with one of 3 people IF you have the option of choosing who to work with (often you will not)... the PD if they do a reasonable number of shifts, the associate PD who's kinda over "recruiting" (this may or may not be intuitive if you look at their titles... if not, ask the program coordinator who's really the APD in charge or resident choices), or whoever the person that is going to write the SLOR if you are going to be getting a composite SLOR... woops, I mean "SLOE". If you're getting a composite letter, who you work with is not as important as what you do but working with the PD is always a good idea if you can swing it to keep your face in their mind when decision time comes.
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Showcase rotation?
Commmmmmmmeeeeeeee on downnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn
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deleted245139
Good luck in the new cycle guys/girls!
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there hopefully is a resident or someone in charge of 'taking care' of the students who will help you with scheduling, including getting shifts with important people. especially if they know its an audition for you and not just another rotation.
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An audition rotation is just that... a rotation that you spend copious hours working in the ED that you are applying to, all while trying to see if you are a good fit for their program. The residents, faculty, and admin staff all have the opportunity to provide feedback, both positive and negative on the applicant, which ultimately ends up in your folder down the line. Bad reviews from just about anyone can cripple an otherwise stellar application.
Food for thought.
Food for thought.
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Do you get to see your SLOE's?
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it's the same as any other letter of recommendation. you have the opportunity to waive your right to read it. most people would recommend waiving that right as it may look weird.
my medical school dean actually advised us to not waive our right with regards to the SLOR because our SLORs had been notoriously harsh. he basically said that the SLOR wouldn't change regardless of whether you saw it or not. I still thought it was weird advice though so i waived my right to see it.
Anyway, long story short - if you really want to see it, you can. but i wouldn't recommend it.
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Regarding "Showcase Showdown": My best buddy from elementary school (we're still good buddies today, call each other every week, etc) was on "The Price Is Right" some 5 years ago. Ever since we've been buddies... the kid has been a devotee of the show, has studied its 'ins-and-outs', knows that the prices on the show reflect "California prices", etc, etc, etc. One of his "bucket list" things was to be on the show and to meet Bob Barker. Guy has always been 'a touch odd', but good on him for making his dreams come true.
Regarding this whole "SLOR/SLOE" thing. I think I may be the first to say this on the forum, but I think the whole thing is bogus. Its yet another attempt to do something to "standardize" things which can't be standardized. A "top quartile" guy at "UpperBallsack Medical Center" is not a "top quartile" guy at "DownstateBallsack University", because those two programs value different things.
I have students in my department. We have no residency program. Many of my students are great. Some of my students suck. But the things that I want/need/value/encourage are far different than the shop across town. What about my LOR as opposed to the others?
Bogus.
STOP THE INSANITY.
This whole "high-pass", "honors", "pass", nonsense is no different. Some attending hasn't had his coffee and you drop from "honors" to "high-pass"? Bogus.
You want standardization? Take an exam. Make it difficult.
Regarding this whole "SLOR/SLOE" thing. I think I may be the first to say this on the forum, but I think the whole thing is bogus. Its yet another attempt to do something to "standardize" things which can't be standardized. A "top quartile" guy at "UpperBallsack Medical Center" is not a "top quartile" guy at "DownstateBallsack University", because those two programs value different things.
I have students in my department. We have no residency program. Many of my students are great. Some of my students suck. But the things that I want/need/value/encourage are far different than the shop across town. What about my LOR as opposed to the others?
Bogus.
STOP THE INSANITY.
This whole "high-pass", "honors", "pass", nonsense is no different. Some attending hasn't had his coffee and you drop from "honors" to "high-pass"? Bogus.
You want standardization? Take an exam. Make it difficult.
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In the words of someone (from some movie - was it "Full Metal Jacket"? I can't remember what the captain says) - "where's the weenie?"
Did he win?
Oh, and also, Bob Barker left in 2007. It's been Drew Carey since 2007. Just sayin'.
edit: Yes, it was the captain, and that is what he asks Joker.
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2013 minus 5 is 2008. It was almost certainly a year or two before that. Time in medical school is kinda-blurry. You know what I mean. Whatever. At any rate: I have had the privilege of seeing my best buddy from gradeschool on-tape with Bob Barker. Bucket-list-check-off-time. 100 stars for my buddy, 25 stars for me.
Tale of the tape: Buddy did win his pricing game and was second-runner up in the Showcase showdown (goddamn wheel). He won a day-bed, fancy kitchen appliances, and a trip to Atlanta with a mountain-retreat (which he summarily turned down secondary to taxes).
If you don't (and the community doesn't) mind me braggin' about bucket-list things... I have tickets for me, my dad, my wifey, and my step'mah to see our hometown MLB team at the end of July. In the behind-home-plate and waitresses-bring-you-what-you'd-like section.
Love you, Dad.
This. 100%.
All these efforts to quantify something that is un-quantifiable are such BS. At the school I went to, some rotations were set up such that 60-70% of your grade came from "evaluations" and 10% from a standardized NBME Shelf exam. You would have students scoring at the >95th percentile getting the same rotation grade as those in the 40th. Rotation grades for medical students are mostly a function of how well you can play the game, suck up and make it appear that you have a semblance of a clue / are working hard when you really don't/aren't.
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Not only is it attending/resident mood dependent, but in some shops the shift eval is flawed, too. If I do as well as a medical student is expected to do, and the card is filled out to reflect that, the corresponding grade is...not pass. No joke. Honors is performing at intern level. Keep in mind the interns don't need to wait 30+ minutes to get an ibuprofen order signed. Also, the feedback suggests the shift eval system is slightly imprecise. For example, most evaluators credit me for developing thorough differentials. The rest critique me for not developing my differentials. I don't think my intershift performance varies that much.
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On most rotations, my school does a pretty good job of balancing subjective evals, Shelf exams, and other exams (i.e. skills tests, ECG exams), usually with a 50%, 30%, 20% type of breakdown.
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deleted547339
Yea, it sucks, but just play the game. We all did it.
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It does totally suck and is far too subjective of a process I hear ya. I used the Ottawa rules to show need for an ankle xray on a patient and was told by the attending that shes fine it happened yesterday. We ended up getting the xray (no I wasn't pushy about it, just pointed out the ottawa rules as my reasoning for getting the xray) and lo and behold there was a fracture requiring ortho follow-up and casting.
What'd I get for my "medical knowledge?" My lowest score for a shift during that whole rotation.
It blows, but it passes.
What'd I get for my "medical knowledge?" My lowest score for a shift during that whole rotation.
It blows, but it passes.
I'm not sure that's any better. At my school a good number of rotations wouldn't allow a student honors unless he/she had received honors on the shelf. I missed honors every time because of the shelf. Partly because I'm not a great standardized tester, and partly because I felt like I was learning more by being on the wards than sitting at home reading a book, which is what I'd done first and second year already. The system as it stood at my school rewarded students for leaving early, not helping out the residents when they could, and spending as little time actually doing stuff as possible, in lieu of staying at home and studying. One of my clerkship evals said "this is the best student I've ever had". Another eval said "I wish I could give him/her honors but the shelf prevents me from doing it". Totally bogus. I went into a clinical field because I love clinical medicine, I love patients, I love learning by doing. I loved being around my residents and helping out. If there was more for me to do or learn, I was the last one to leave every time. I was penalized for that. Not sure why we should promote making every clerkship be almost entirely determined by a written test when we're supposed to be done with first and second year.
Anyways, I'm a resident now, so thankfully that's done.
This, of course, ignores differences between rotation sites. I know my school has one site where essentially everyone gets honors, yet I'll spend more time in the hospital on call at the main county hospital (where the on call IM team does all of the medicine admissions for the hospital, as well as responds to all rapid response and code blues in a 400+ bed tertiary care hospital) than people will spend in that hospital over the entire 4 week rotation.
The only silver lining is that there's a notable difference between people who spent time at county and people who had the easy honors rotation. Unfortunately, this only comes out in LORs and audition rotations...
On a recent rotation I really liked how the grades were broken down and I thought I'd share. Hopefully more places decide to do this.
First, your shift evaluations count for 1/3 of your overall grade for the rotation. This (as many have pointed out) was subjective of course but it helped in some ways.
Second 1/3 was given for your participation in lectures, teaching sessions, etc. In this particular rotation there was a lot more classroom learning/lectures than in most EM rotations so it made this a reasonable thing to grade and since there were a number of other students it could be graduated with the ones participating the most getting high marks and with those that just kinda showed up getting lower end marks. Again, kinda subjective, but not bad.
Last 1/3 was actually split up between two things equally... your end of service exam and an end of service mega-code. These were both quantifiable and not subjective.
By adding these parts up it's obvious you can get close to an honors just by the first two sections but if you don't perform well on the test or megacode then you can't make the cut for honors or vice versa... doing well on the test doesn't help if you're a wall flower or jackass on shift. I thought it was the best way to do it and eventhough it still went out as honors, high pass, pass, fail it had a method to how you fall in those categories. Oh, and of course all your comments from your shift evals make their way into your overall eval and I assume your SLOE. I dunno, in a pretty crappy system of evaluation that we have these days I thought this was about as fair all the way around as it can get... thoughts?
First, your shift evaluations count for 1/3 of your overall grade for the rotation. This (as many have pointed out) was subjective of course but it helped in some ways.
Second 1/3 was given for your participation in lectures, teaching sessions, etc. In this particular rotation there was a lot more classroom learning/lectures than in most EM rotations so it made this a reasonable thing to grade and since there were a number of other students it could be graduated with the ones participating the most getting high marks and with those that just kinda showed up getting lower end marks. Again, kinda subjective, but not bad.
Last 1/3 was actually split up between two things equally... your end of service exam and an end of service mega-code. These were both quantifiable and not subjective.
By adding these parts up it's obvious you can get close to an honors just by the first two sections but if you don't perform well on the test or megacode then you can't make the cut for honors or vice versa... doing well on the test doesn't help if you're a wall flower or jackass on shift. I thought it was the best way to do it and eventhough it still went out as honors, high pass, pass, fail it had a method to how you fall in those categories. Oh, and of course all your comments from your shift evals make their way into your overall eval and I assume your SLOE. I dunno, in a pretty crappy system of evaluation that we have these days I thought this was about as fair all the way around as it can get... thoughts?
Vandy away rotation?
Has to be.... And I agree with the above poster that this was a great way to get a good assessment. I didn't much enjoy my time on shift for various reasons here, mostly having to do with the fact that I didn't really mesh with the people. Despite that, I loved the rotation overall, learned a ton, and most importantly I was able to get the grade I needed. I did it simply by not being a total idiot or a total jerk, and working really hard. Probably how it should be, in my opinion.
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Yeah, a huge component of grading is subjective...do the following to balance playing the game with learning EM and maintaining your own sanity/humanity:
1) If you see a pt in major pain/discomfort, becoming unstable, etc....stop what you're doing and inform your resident/attending.
2) Always have a plan for your patients, don't worry if it's wrong.
3) In the time not spent managing your patients, go out of your way to make your residents/attendings life easier...this can be accomplished by asking: "Anything I can do to help?" Don't go overboard with this, but don't be afraid to ask. If they say no, ask your nurses if you can start IVs or help with any procedures they may be doing. The more you immerse yourself in the waters outside "your" patients, the more you'll learn and get out of the rotation...and, yes, it will likely be noticed.
4) Play NICE in the sandbox. You see a nurse having trouble positioning a pt...help them out. Fellow med students having trouble remembering random facts...help them out and make NO attempts to upstage them. Hopefully you're already doing this. If you're not, start.
1) If you see a pt in major pain/discomfort, becoming unstable, etc....stop what you're doing and inform your resident/attending.
2) Always have a plan for your patients, don't worry if it's wrong.
3) In the time not spent managing your patients, go out of your way to make your residents/attendings life easier...this can be accomplished by asking: "Anything I can do to help?" Don't go overboard with this, but don't be afraid to ask. If they say no, ask your nurses if you can start IVs or help with any procedures they may be doing. The more you immerse yourself in the waters outside "your" patients, the more you'll learn and get out of the rotation...and, yes, it will likely be noticed.
4) Play NICE in the sandbox. You see a nurse having trouble positioning a pt...help them out. Fellow med students having trouble remembering random facts...help them out and make NO attempts to upstage them. Hopefully you're already doing this. If you're not, start.
Perhappppppps... lol
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Following
Last edited:
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Anyone know by what date USMLE Step 2 should be taken when applying to EM?
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No strict date or cutoff. If you're Step 1 is low you should probably take it early enough such that your score is available close to the time your application is in. I think it takes 4-6 weeks or so for your score report to come out. If your Step 1 is really high you can probably take it whenever it's convenient.
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What would be considered "really high" for step 1? (I'm a third year interested in EM and I'm just following this thread so I have an idea of what to do next year).
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Probably 245-250ish (conservatively)
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If youre a DO, even with a high step 1 I would suggest taking step 2 early.
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Anyone know why u can't add Hopkins to ur program list on eras?
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The PD is allergic to doxy
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deleted547339
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Read username.
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Anyone having trouble deciding between IM and EM? IM has a lot of cool specialties that you can do you can also work in the ED in the southeast with IM.
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deleted547339
This has been addressed ad nauseum. If you want to work in an ED, train in EM. If you want to work as a hospitalist or subspecialist, do IM.
IM-trained physicians in the ED isn't best for patient care. They aren't trained in peds or ob/gyn, they don't do a lot of procedures, and there are several other reasons why it's just not a great idea.
There are many positions filled in the ED by IM-trained MDs, but this is trending down as more and more EM-trained MDs are graduating. Although this may still be a somewhat viable option, it would severely limit your potential location/employment situation and probably isn't what's best for the patient.
Good luck.
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I struggled with this and ultimately decided to apply EM. Have you considered combined programs?
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In your experience/from what you've heard, how long does it take programs at which you rotate to produce a SLOE? I am planning on having three departmental letters, one from home and two from aways. The last away is in September (finishes 9/27). I'm wondering if I'll have it back soon enough to be considered complete for those programs that require everything be in before offering interviews. Will it matter for most programs (particularly in California) if I only have two total letters (2 SLOEs) by the time the MSPE comes out? Any thoughts?
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In your experience/from what you've heard, how long does it take programs at which you rotate to produce a SLOE?
Depends on the program..I had one within the week and one take 2-3 months. In general, you should probably get it between 2-3 weeks.
I am planning on having three departmental letters, one from home and two from aways. The last away is in September (finishes 9/27). I'm wondering if I'll have it back soon enough to be considered complete for those programs that require everything be in before offering interviews. Will it matter for most programs (particularly in California) if I only have two total letters (2 SLOEs) by the time the MSPE comes out? Any thoughts?
Sooner is better, but I think most programs only require 1-2 SLOEs to be considered "complete" so if you have to wait a little for your 3rd, I can't imagine it hurting your application too much.
Depends on the program..I had one within the week and one take 2-3 months. In general, you should probably get it between 2-3 weeks.
I am planning on having three departmental letters, one from home and two from aways. The last away is in September (finishes 9/27). I'm wondering if I'll have it back soon enough to be considered complete for those programs that require everything be in before offering interviews. Will it matter for most programs (particularly in California) if I only have two total letters (2 SLOEs) by the time the MSPE comes out? Any thoughts?
Sooner is better, but I think most programs only require 1-2 SLOEs to be considered "complete" so if you have to wait a little for your 3rd, I can't imagine it hurting your application too much.
Perhaps, you can gently let the SLOE writer of the Sept rotation know that you are waiting on the letter and he/she can turn it in ASAP. I think 2 letters plus MSPE is ok to get started with.
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Will this thread be used for interview dates sent by programs? Last year, the EM class had a giant list of all DO and MD programs - listed interview dates and such.
Rank Order List [2012-2013]
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=977312
Rank Order List [2012-2013]
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=977312
Hi everyone. I'm a fourth-year DO student who'd like some honest opinions. I'm a fairly average student for the most part: USMLE Step 1 (224) and Step 2 (221), COMLEX Level 1 (616) with Level 2 pending, no research/publications, couple volunteer experiences, mix of pass/high pass clinical grades, average pre-clinical grades. An overall unremarkable application.
What are my realistic chances of matching at an allopathic EM program? I have a couple audition rotations set up at programs in the midwest. If I were to forgo the DO match, how many programs should I apply to? How many interviews should I expect to get? If I only receive a handful of interviews (< 6), should I consider applying to DO programs as well (DO match is before the MD match, so I'd be out of the NRMP match if I matched DO)? I plan on applying mainly to programs in the midwest and southeast.
Any advice would be helpful. Thanks!
What are my realistic chances of matching at an allopathic EM program? I have a couple audition rotations set up at programs in the midwest. If I were to forgo the DO match, how many programs should I apply to? How many interviews should I expect to get? If I only receive a handful of interviews (< 6), should I consider applying to DO programs as well (DO match is before the MD match, so I'd be out of the NRMP match if I matched DO)? I plan on applying mainly to programs in the midwest and southeast.
Any advice would be helpful. Thanks!
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I kicked around EM, IM, EM/IM and settled on EM and I'm quite happy with the decision. I was considering critical care for awhile but with that available to EM grads now the only reason to do IM or EM/IM is if you really like IM!
What I finally realized was that I like resuscitation, stabilization, and initial workup of undifferentiated complaints. I get bored too quickly if the diagnosis is known or there is nothing that needs to be "done." I think I was confused about this as a med student since there was so much new to learn on every rotation that I found them all interesting.
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anyone have any insight into how much honor vs high sat vs sat matters for ur EM sub-i ? I mean outside of the SLOR is that something heavily weighted and would u say more important than boards/ overall picture of application? I ask because I just got my first sub-i grade and didn't honor and i dk what to think of it other than this is not a positive point for my application (i understand not everyone can honor) - i received good comments, seems arbitrary to me who honored vs who didn't
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I heard it's over 9000 this year.
But in all seriousness, I heard from a PD that it was low 230s last year. That being said, I personally know someone with a 200 who got in to a great program that same cycle.
And hi, everyone. I'm applying EM this year, too
