Don’t want to be a DO

[Osteosaur]

Starting in August. OMM seems like a great non-pharmacological option for back pain which is a very common issue. Not sure how so many people seem to gloss over that. Not only that but it can be billed for and significantly increase income in FM.

That is more the issue. For OMM sufficient evidence seems to be "seems to work", "patients tell me it helps", "makes sense based off anatomy class" and so on.

There is just a lot less actual literature on it, and much of it is mixed. Everything else in medicine is held to the basis of some some actual evidence (or should be).

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[VeggieMed]

That is more the issue. For OMM sufficient evidence seems to be "seems to work", "patients tell me it helps", "makes sense based off anatomy class" and so on.

There is just a lot less actual literature on it, and much of it is mixed. Everything else in medicine is held to the basis of some some actual evidence (or should be).

Yes but many treatments in Western medicine have uncomfortable or harmful side effects for the patient.
If I had chronic back pain I would pay A LOT of money for a treatment that is, at worst, as effective as a placebo and doesn’t have any side effects. The data is there to show that OMM is effective at treating lower back pain and I would certainly want to try it before going to a surgeon.

 

[Whysoez]

Random OMM fact: newbies seem to associate the degree of success in performing a HVLA technique with the loudness of the crack produced by said technique.

 

[DO2015CA]

Random OMM fact: newbies seem to associate the degree of success in performing a HVLA technique with the loudness of the crack produced by said technique.

Is that sound not the true call of Still?

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

When MS0s walk into med school and are concerned about the science of OMM being off.
When PGYXs finish residency knowing that medicine is like 50% expert opinion and that sometimes it's easier to just stfu and go with it and see what happens.

 

[getfat]

When MS0s walk into med school and are concerned about the science of OMM being off.
When PGYXs finish residency knowing that medicine is like 50% expert opinion and that sometimes it's easier to just stfu and go with it and see what happens.

I tell med students to look up the recent data regarding statins.

 

[Doc_Ock]

I wish I hadn't gone DO tbh. Wayyyyyyy too much nonsense and pseudoscience to ignore. Get out now.

 

[DrZoidbergDO]

I wish I hadn't gone DO tbh. Wayyyyyyy too much nonsense and pseudoscience to ignore. Get out now.

Didn't you drop out though? Might cloud your judgement.

 

[Doc_Ock]

Didn't you drop out though? Might cloud your judgement.

I was exposed to it for several years and my school in particular covers it more than any other school. My judgment is just fine (the absurd amount of junk science played a role in why I walked away).

 

[DrZoidbergDO]

I was exposed to it for several years and my school in particular covers it more than any other school. My judgment is just fine (the absurd amount of junk science played a role in why I walked away).

I obviously can't speak to your experience, but i don't think spending an hour a week on something is enough to even come close to throwing away hundreds of thousands a year

 

[DOVinciRobot]

I’m the only DO in my program. Trust me, once you get to residency no one cares and you’ll all be on the same level.

Just ignore the BS and keep your head down. Do your best to look like an MD student on paper.

 

[FutureDoctor5000]

I’m the only DO in my program. Trust me, once you get to residency no one cares and you’ll all be on the same level.

Just ignore the BS and keep your head down. Do your best to look like an MD student on paper.

That’s awesome, hopefully you open some doors that might have been closed for DO’s at your program!!

 

[deleted1100659]

As a DO attending, I can tell you noone cares in the real world if you are an MD or DO.

If I had to be honest, though, id tell you to drop out of medical school ,not because its a DO program, but because being a physician is imo no longer worth it.

I think its still worth it, but maybe its because my field has a low rate of burnout.

who cares if you have to do OMM? we often have to do things in life that we don't like, to achieve a necessary end. It is what it is. youll continue to have make personal sacrifices, although this is hardly a big one.

 

[JimBone905]

from the limited experience i've had with residents during my clerkships this year, nobody gives a fk if ur a DO vs MD (i've had MD's, nurses, and PA's say they LOVE the osteopathic school that sends students there to rotate/residencies).

If you dont want do be a DO, dont be a DO. Give your spot to someone who wants it because there are thousands of applicants that would take your spot in a heart beat knowing they would be physicians. I'm sure i speak for many fellow DO students when I say that we have had our regrets, but I'd rather make 200k+ as a physician and doing what I love than spend 5 years in a PhD program not making nearly as much money and stuck in a lab begging for grants to keep it going (no offense to anyone doing a PhD, just my perception, could be wrong). And to give that up just because I didnt want to spend a few hours a week for 2 years in med school learning about chapman points? Nah, I'm proud of my choice, and you should be too, if you chose it. Think of how much effort it took just to get to where you are now, it was this hard for a reason!

and honestly, you can get away with just saying fk it to OMM and still do well on your boards. I didnt even study for comlex (took USMLE and studied chapman/viscero for 3 days between) and ended up with an above average comlex. OMM was by far my lowest section but who cares at that point. Just make sure to take the USMLE and I'm sure you wont have any problems going forward. Go ask your DO doc that you shadowed and see if anyone gives him heat for being a DO or if he regrets going to DO school, that should help you put some perspective.

 

[DrMcLovin]

I would give up your seat. You will be miserable in school and further if you dont drop out. You may never recover from the mental anguish. You have 4 yrs of school then a lifetime of having a D.O degree. Some may never recover from that.

 

[giguerex35]

i cant stress what the above posters have said, i know it may seem like a big step to withdraw and what not, but if the thought is in your head now it will only get worse. put some serious thought and if you really dont want to be a DO just rip off the band-aid and get it over with because doing
omm for 2 years is like pulling teeth and well it never really gets better. i would suggest withdrawing and apply to MD in the future, just know that once you withdraw you will likely not have the option of DO again

 

[SLC]

OP,

I’m an attending x 3yrs, DO. I say suck it up.

The letters don’t matter the moment you leave med-school and start residency. Literally not at all.

you may have a hard time matching into certain fields, that topic has been done to death here, so I won’t go into it more. But suffice it to say, it’s usually more than just the initials that hold DO’s back.

but patients don’t care, administrators don’t care, and colleagues don’t care. Once you’ve got a license to practice. You’ll make the same money, and have the same clinical privileges as any MD. If you’re a solid provider, your MD colleagues will curbside you just as often.

as for OMM, it’s not a bad class. Some/most is pretty useless, but it feels good; so go to class and enjoy 4hrs per week of free (sort of) massage. Plus, you’ll get your MSK anatomy absolutely nailed. You’ll be able to palpate the MSK system and identify issues way better than non OMM trained folks, and you will be better off for it.

and as Goro said, you’ll be much more comfortable touching patients. Which is a big deal in practice. People expect a physical exam, and as wierd as it may sound, they feel more confident in their care if they feel their doctor actually examined them adequately. Being comfortable laying hands on a patient will go a long way, and will make you a better clinician.

I also agree with Sylvanthus, becoming a physician is not really worth it anymore. If I were starting over today, knowing what I know now, I probably wouldn’t do it again. I LOVE what I do, but financially speaking, the cost benefit analysis just doesn’t work out in the doctor’s favor these days.

you’ve been given a huge opportunity here to do a cool job; most people who want to do it are never granted the opportunity. It might not be right for you, but don’t squander it over something as stupid as a set of almost meaningless credentials and a course you don’t want to take. Unless you’re just not into being a physician in the first place at all. If that’s the case, get out now.

 

[Doc_Ock]

I obviously can't speak to your experience, but i don't think spending an hour a week on something is enough to even come close to throwing away hundreds of thousands a year

It was wayyyyyy more than an hour. It came at the expense of learning real medicine, among other things. It was far too cult-ish; the head of our omm department styled his hair and beard to look like AT Still and any publicly expressed doubts about the validity of omm were met with an office meeting telling you to get with the program.
And money isn't everything, I'm kinda surprised you're even using that as a justification. People who do something they hate just for the money are miserable.

 

[SLC]

It was wayyyyyy more than an hour. It came at the expense of learning real medicine, among other things. It was far too cult-ish; the head of our omm department styled his hair and beard to look like AT Still and any publicly expressed doubts about the validity of omm were met with an office meeting telling you to get with the program.
And money isn't everything, I'm kinda surprised you're even using that as a justification. People who do something they hate just for the money are miserable.

Id wager that if you’re spending more than 1-2hrs cramming before an OMM test, you’re doing it wrong.

I’m not that smart and I don’t think I ever studied OMM, once. I just crammed before the test, learned the very basics in order to be able to pass the test, and left the rest for the true believers. OMM NEVER came at the expense of learning real medicine. That was a personal boundary I set for myself.

And nobody is suggesting you do OMM once out in practice. That’d be doing something you hate for money.

but I guarantee you took classes you hated in undergraduate in order to get your degree. I know I did, several times. Why should OMM be viewed in any different light?

 

[JimBone905]

Id wager that if you’re spending more than 1-2hrs cramming before an OMM test, you’re doing it wrong.

I’m not that smart and I don’t think I ever studied OMM, once. I just crammed before the test, learned the very basics in order to be able to pass the test, and left the rest for the true believers. OMM NEVER came at the expense of learning real medicine. That was a personal boundary I set for myself.

And nobody is suggesting you do OMM once out in practice. That’d be doing something you hate for money.

but I guarantee you took classes you hated in undergraduate in order to get your degree. I know I did, several times. Why should OMM be viewed in any different light?

OMM is not a big deal in med school as people make it out to be.. passed my OMM course with minimal effort.

 

[DrZoidbergDO]

It was wayyyyyy more than an hour. It came at the expense of larning real medicine, among other things. It was far too cult-ish; the head of our omm department styled his hair and beard to look like AT Still and any publicly expressed doubts about the validity of omm were met with an office meeting telling you to get with the program.
And money isn't everything, I'm kinda surprised you're even using that as a justification. People who do something they hate just for the money are miserable.

I guess that's the differences in schools. OMM is a minor annoyance at worst at mine. I've spent a lot more time on useless stuff like Orgo

 

[DO2015CA]

It was wayyyyyy more than an hour. It came at the expense of learning real medicine, among other things. It was far too cult-ish; the head of our omm department styled his hair and beard to look like AT Still and any publicly expressed doubts about the validity of omm were met with an office meeting telling you to get with the program.
And money isn't everything, I'm kinda surprised you're even using that as a justification. People who do something they hate just for the money are miserable.

This sounds like a specific school problem and not a systemic DO school one. Mine, ACOM, had one 2h lab per week and occasional 1h lectures (I’d say <10 a semester). OMM was essentially no big deal.

 

[Doc_Ock]

Id wager that if you’re spending more than 1-2hrs cramming before an OMM test, you’re doing it wrong.

I’m not that smart and I don’t think I ever studied OMM, once. I just crammed before the test, learned the very basics in order to be able to pass the test, and left the rest for the true believers. OMM NEVER came at the expense of learning real medicine. That was a personal boundary I set for myself.

And nobody is suggesting you do OMM once out in practice. That’d be doing something you hate for money.

but I guarantee you took classes you hated in undergraduate in order to get your degree. I know I did, several times. Why should OMM be viewed in any different light?

Because at least organic chemistry is actual science.

 

[Doc_Ock]

I guess that's the differences in schools. OMM is a minor annoyance at worst at mine. I've spent a lot more time on useless stuff like Orgo

If it was like that at my school it likely wouldn't have bothered me so much. A friend who went to one of the Midwesterns (Arizona I think) said they barely go over it, probably would've been fine at a school like that. Unfortunately mine was a classic "Cult of Still" school.

 

[zNoodlez]

If it was like that at my school it likely wouldn't have bothered me so much. A friend who went to one of the Midwesterns (Arizona I think) said they barely go over it, probably would've been fine at a school like that. Unfortunately mine was a classic "Cult of Still" school.

Ok Now it sounds more like you have a problem with your school and how strongly they pushed OMM, not with the entire DO path. OP might be going to a school that barely teaches OMM like AZCOM.

 

[Doc_Ock]

This sounds like a specific school problem and not a systemic DO school one. Mine, ACOM, had one 2h lab per week and occasional 1h lectures (I’d say <10 a semester). OMM was essentially no big deal.

That's fantastic.

Ok Now it sounds more like you have a problem with your school and how strongly they pushed OMM, not with the entire DO path. OP might be going to a school that barely teaches OMM like AZCOM.

Possibly. I'm one of those who has a real intolerance for junk science so it depends on that as well. I really tried to make myself drink the kool-aid but I just couldn't. OP said his school is like mine in regards to omm so that's why i harped on it so much.
I should note that there are plenty of other DO-type problems that affected me, so it's not just the omm.

 

[Lawpy]

I think the excessive emphasis on OMM in some schools is a serious problem that needs to be addressed

 

[Lawpy]

Because at least organic chemistry is actual science.

On a related note, i think the most important thing to teach is statistics and research methods. Because holy crap, the amount of misinterpretation of research studies and practicing things that aren't backed (or even contradicted!) by science in medicine is astounding.

So many doctors have such a garbage understanding of statistics that much of medicine is actually running on unsupported science if not borderline pseudoscience!

 

[Goro]

As have pointed out many times in this forum, omm class and comlex are a tax on you screwing up your undergraduate GPA and or the MCAT.

My school is one of the more serious ones about OMM/OMT. Get my students Breeze through these classes and the average seems to be in the high nineties. And my students are not wasting multiple hours studying the subject either. It takes real talent for 1 to do poorly in this class

 

[Doc_Ock]

On a related note, i think the most important thing to teach is statistics and research methods. Because holy crap, the amount of misinterpretation of research studies and practicing things that aren't backed (or even contradicted!) by science in medicine is astounding.

So many doctors have such a garbage understanding of statistics that much of medicine is actually running on unsupported science if not borderline pseudoscience!

Yes! Research methodology was required coursework for me in undergrad and it's been one of the most useful courses I ever took.

 

[Doc_Ock]

As have pointed out many times in this forum, omm class and comlex are a tax on you screwing up your undergraduate GPA and or the MCAT.

My school is one of the more serious ones about OMM/OMT. Get my students Breeze through these classes and the average seems to be in the high nineties. And my students are not wasting multiple hours studying the subject either. It takes real talent for 1 to do poorly in this class

Wowwwwwwwwwww. That's judgmental AF. Expected better from you. I knew more than a few students with 508+ mcats and 3.7+ gpa's.

 

[DrZoidbergDO]

Wowwwwwwwwwww. That's judgmental AF. Expected better from you.

He's not wrong tho

 

[Doc_Ock]

He's not wrong tho

So is that why you went DO?

 

[DrZoidbergDO]

So is that why you went DO?

Yeah obv

 

[deleted645092]

I agree, the majority of patients that receive OMM report feeling better. This is all anecdotal of course.

The real, tangible benefits are those who are able to go off their chronic pain regimens.

 

[sylvanthus]

It was wayyyyyy more than an hour. It came at the expense of learning real medicine, among other things. It was far too cult-ish; the head of our omm department styled his hair and beard to look like AT Still and any publicly expressed doubts about the validity of omm were met with an office meeting telling you to get with the program.
And money isn't everything, I'm kinda surprised you're even using that as a justification. People who do something they hate just for the money are miserable.

Daaamm and I thought I was bitter.

 

[sylvanthus]

Wowwwwwwwwwww. That's judgmental AF. Expected better from you. I knew more than a few students with 508+ mcats and 3.7+ gpa's.

Dude its harsh but its true. I appreciate brutal honesty. For every student who “coulda got into MD school but I really like holistic medicine/OMM and went DO only” there are several who F’ed up in undergrad and just want to be a doctor. To them, OMM is penance.

 

[SLC]

Because at least organic chemistry is actual science.

and this invalidates my point somehow?

 

[LondonVibes]

As have pointed out many times in this forum, omm class and comlex are a tax on you screwing up your undergraduate GPA and or the MCAT.

My school is one of the more serious ones about OMM/OMT. Get my students Breeze through these classes and the average seems to be in the high nineties. And my students are not wasting multiple hours studying the subject either. It takes real talent for 1 to do poorly in this class

Also OMM class may be a tax on not having your ECs done in by submission time.

It’s definitely frustrating to have an additional mandatory attendance class that other students don’t even have to take. But also, bearing the brunt of OMM class is the price that the thousands of osteopathic students have to pay to become doctors, and if someone who couldn’t become a doctor had the chance to take it, they would in a heartbeat.

 

[Mr. Babe]

Seems to me like a troll post. Cuz apparently everyone is easily offended. I've never read a post from @Goro that I thought wasn't well thought out and truthful. Some DO's like OMM (im thinking <10%) and the rest of us are taxed because of poor grades. Having >508 MCAT means nothing. Being >515 is getting somewhere. How badly do you want to be a doctor? Sometimes it's best to shut up and go to work. We have enough whiny people to go around.

 

[ziko41]

Seems to me like a troll post. Cuz apparently everyone is easily offended. I've never read a post from @Goro that I thought wasn't well thought, out and truthful. Some DO's like OMM (im thinking <10%) and the rest of us are taxed because of poor grades. Having >508 MCAT means nothing. Being >515 is getting somewhere. How badly do you want to be a doctor? Sometimes it's best to shut up and go to work. We have enough whiny people to go around.

Definitely a very accurate point.

 

[Doc_Ock]

and this invalidates my point somehow?

I honestly can't tell if you're trolling or if drinking the DO juice has made you this dense.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

It was wayyyyyy more than an hour. It came at the expense of learning real medicine, among other things. It was far too cult-ish; the head of our omm department styled his hair and beard to look like AT Still and any publicly expressed doubts about the validity of omm were met with an office meeting telling you to get with the program.
And money isn't everything, I'm kinda surprised you're even using that as a justification. People who do something they hate just for the money are miserable.

You barely learn any real medicine in medical school. You think your 6 week survey of cardiology even begins to grasp anything save that too much fluid bad? You're going to leave medical school not even being able to understand the most simple ekgs.

Also you're going to meet so many jack asses in medicine that some fart with a beard who does low risk manipulation is probably the least of any of our worries. Talk to me when you meet some of your future collogues who will tell you to "take the consult out".

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

I honestly can't tell if you're trolling or if drinking the DO juice has made you this dense.

Seeing as he is a successful pcp who makes 300k working 4 days a week at age 30, I think he's pretty well off.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Because at least organic chemistry is actual science.

A minimally useful one for clinical medicine.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

The real, tangible benefits are those who are able to go off their chronic pain regimens.

Low risk, low to moderate reward is about a quarter to half of medicine.

 

[Goro]

I think we've detoured enough from the OP, so let's get the thread back on track

 

[Ho0v-man]

I honestly can't tell if you're trolling or if drinking the DO juice has made you this dense.

Bro, I went to Kirksville. There’s no chance your school was more over-the-top than mine on OMM. Everyone still just crams the day before for the tests. And everyone just got up early the morning of to run through stuff for the practicals.

Yes, it’s annoying. Yes, it’s often times dumb. Yes, you definitely have better things to do than study for this class unrelated to anything else you’re studying.

But it’s not the reason anyone can’t handle med school.

It sounds like you realized this path is terrible for your mental health and were smart enough to realize early on that “it gets better” is just a big lie. More power to you. I frequently wish I did the same.

But blaming it all on a class that literally anyone capable of scraping together a 50th percentile MCAT can easily pass is just a disingenuous ego defense.

 

[SLC]

I honestly can't tell if you're trolling or if drinking the DO juice has made you this dense.

but seriously, if you knew me, you’d know I’m about as “un-osteopathic” as they come as a clinician. I don’t do OMM, and I don’t really even permit my medical students to. I still don’t really resent my OMM class, it was useful in some ways (again, I’m pretty damn good with Ortho in large part to that class), and was nothing more than a minor annoyance overall.

I went to residency at an MD program, one at a “high end” institution. One that was one of the OG FM programs and is very “academic” (one of the Ivy’s). Our faculty were publishing regularly, they were all STFM folks, one was a member of USPSTF advisory committee, and several have clinical articles in UpToDate etc. Even they had us (the DO residents, and interested MD residents) doing OMM clinic’s once or twice per month. We had several MD faculty members who took the certification via UNECOM and even billed for it. I still don’t use it out in solo practice. But again, I’m not bitter about learning it, or even being asked to do it as a resident from time to time when I’d just as soon not have. You shouldn’t be either. It’ll all be over soon enough and you can do whatever the hell you want with your career.

Getting this worked up over what amounts to nothing, is a recipe for early burn out. And burnout will wreck you. I mean, you do you. But trust me, life’s better with a positive attitude.

 

[dontknowwhattodo]

I think we've detoured enough from the OP, so let's get the thread back on track

Agree! And I’ve already posted about making up my mind