Does anyone else have this issue with med students?

[double elle]

This past year, our 3rd and 4th year classes have consisted of MANY MANY very LAZY students. I would have never dreamed of acting the way some of these people do. Not only are they lazy...but they don't really CARE that they are lazy. They don't seem to care that they are perceived as slackers - yet they are going after competative residencies, which always makes me laugh. The other day, I walked into the physician's lounge and found a 3rd year completely sprawled out SLEEPING on the couch! I've taken to documenting some of the behavior for when I have to make serious complaints to the DME. It just seems that pride is gone in these people. I don't mean a small percentage - I mean about 60% of our current students are like this. I can't imagine NOT caring that every attending/resident would potentially think I was worthless and this made me work even harder.

Any one else with this issue?

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[GuP]

...

 

[bla_3x]

Man, when I was on medicine wards 3rd year and especially this last year I got right on any and every opportunity to catch some ZZs, sprawl, let loose, etc...and I still got ALL of my @#$# done!

Our couch was booty...too many years of service

 

[GatorMedMan]

4th years are allowed, and should be required, to be slackers. You should be surprised to even see them in the hospital.

 

[eastcoastyall]

That sucks! But the med student culture sure varies between schools. The difference between my home school (work rediculous hours) and where I did my away rotation (call and prerounding forbidden) was night and day. I just hope that the med students where I am going in a few weeks are good. I have full faith that you can whip them into shape.

 

[LADoc00]

Things to realize:
1.) Med school costs are OUTRAGEOUS. They have been increasing faster than the national rate of inflation and gas prices COMBINED. Everything is more expensive from rent to text books and that level of debt can make people very depressed when they realize they have no equity to show for it other than their skills.
2.) Reimbursements are declining, QUICKLY. Now that they have that debt level, many are finding they must do a lucrative subspec like derm, rads, ortho, plastics etc to be financially solvent in 10 years. When the future looks grim it is very easy to become despondent or angry.
3.) This isnt the Marine Corps. Doctors dont have that old school reputation of being Iron Men anymore. The "Carrots" that made people care of income and societal status are decaying and dying.

Be lucky Im not a med student again. At the current costs, I would demand interns and residents bring me breakfast in bed at the Ritz and read me stories out of Harrison's at bed time.

Med students are CUSTOMERS, not recruits for the Navy SEALs, and in our increasing "Me" focused society, the customer is always right.

 

[sirus_virus]

Things to realize:
1.) Med school costs are OUTRAGEOUS. They have been increasing faster than the national rate of inflation and gas prices COMBINED. Everything is more expensive from rent to text books and that level of debt can make people very depressed when they realize they have no equity to show for it other than their skills.
2.) Reimbursements are declining, QUICKLY. Now that they have that debt level, many are finding they must do a lucrative subspec like derm, rads, ortho, plastics etc to be financially solvent in 10 years. When the future looks grim it is very easy to become despondent or angry.
3.) This isnt the Marine Corps. Doctors dont have that old school reputation of being Iron Men anymore. The "Carrots" that made people care of income and societal status are decaying and dying.

Be lucky Im not a med student again. At the current costs, I would demand interns and residents bring me breakfast in bed at the Ritz and read me stories out of Harrison's at bed time.

Med students are CUSTOMERS, not recruits for the Navy SEALs, and in our increasing "Me" focused society, the customer is always right.

Op, take note of this wise post above.

Just to reiterate what LADoc just said. The "pride" you are talking about has declined with reimbursements. You are lucky all they are doing is sleep, and not delibrately sabotaging stuff(don't underestimate what frustration can do to people). Yeah, I can just see that future primary care medstudent walking into the hospital with exuberating excitement after reading about the latest physician salary decline news.

PS: what the hell where you doing in the physician's lounge to begin with? Did the student take your spot on the couch?

 

[raidermedic]

Be lucky Im not a med student again. At the current costs, I would demand interns and residents bring me breakfast in bed at the Ritz and read me stories out of Harrison's at bed time.

Med students are CUSTOMERS, not recruits for the Navy SEALs, and in our increasing "Me" focused society, the customer is always right.

Damn, can I rotate on your service?

 

[loveumms]

Wait a minute, was this your medical student on the couch? I could understand your frustration if you were looking for said medical student and found them sleeping but, if they are not even on your service then who cares what they are doing.

I can tell you first hand why a medical student might be sleeping on a couch in the physicians lounge ... b/c the surgical resident (not picking on surgery but, this is where I encountered the nazi residents) made them stay up all night on call. The medical student wasn't learning but instead, watching the resident run around the hospital trying to get all their work done while flirting with nurses, checking their email and watching TV in the residents lounge, while saying two words to the student and promising that they will "teach them something eventually".

It's pretty sad that residents assume medical students want to follow them around. Believe it or not, medical students are there to learn, NOT be the residents friend. I promised myself to NEVER forget what it was like during medical school. As I learned more and more about the 'system' I figured out that if you just asked a whole lot of questions, the resident would get sick of you and instead of making you follow them around, hoping for an admission they would send you to sleep and page you when they needed you.

As I go into residency I'm going to remember that I hated residents who thought that medical students were in boot camp and should be alert, smiling and attentive at all times. Believe it or not, medical students are people too and sometimes they need to sleep.

Don't forget, most of your attendings (especially if you are a surgical resident) think you are lazy pieces of cr*pola. Why????? Because when they were residents they actually did work 150 hours a week, didn't leave the hospital for a shower, to eat dinner with their families or to be there for the birth of their first child.

 

[colbgw02]

Any one else with this issue?

No.

 

[DiveMD]

When I was a med student my priorities were the following:

1)USMLE's/Grades
2)LOR from attendings
3)Wasting my time following a resident (specially an @-hole)

IOW, will you be able to get the residency of you choice with tons of ward experience but crappy USMLE's? I don't think so…. Your job as a med student is to study, get good grades and score high in your boards!!!

 

[bla_3x]

When I was a med student my priorities were the following:

1)USMLE’s/Grades
2)LOR from attendings
3)Wasting my time following a resident (specially an @-hole)

IOW, will you be able to get the residency of you choice with tons of ward experience but crappy USMLE’s? I don’t think so…. Your job as a med student is to study, get good grades and score high in your boards!!!

I agree that the med student should be a hard worker and try and do well. However, there is no need to "live" that way. Med school is a job. When I was in EMS I didn't live my life outside of work like I was still on the bus.
I saw too many student go overboard trying to impress. What sucks for them is that they did not get any better letters than I.

 

[mig26x]

When I did my surgery rotation I could care less about working, I hated surgery and didnt find it interesting. I had this attending that worked from 6am to 11pm everyday and I didnt felt like following him or his residents up and down everyday. I did my job of doing Hx., every day notes etc but didnt do anything out of the ordinary and the attending understood me, he asked me one day " you dont want to go into surgery?" I said "NOpe". He gave me a good evaluation afterwards.

 

[GuP]

When I did my surgery rotation I could care less about working, I hated surgery and didnt find it interesting. I had this attending that worked from 6am to 11pm everyday and I didnt felt like following him or his residents up and down everyday. I did my job of doing Hx., every day notes etc but didnt do anything out of the ordinary and the attending understood me, he asked me one day " you dont want to go into surgery?" I said "NOpe". He gave me a good evaluation afterwards.

Ya but for every one attending and resident that understand there are 3 that think every med student should do what they do and be miserbale along with them. Bunch of tools that walk around thinking they are mighty and cool

 

[Bitsy3221]

Ya but for every one attending and resident that understand there are 3 that think every med student should do what they do and be miserbale along with them. Bunch of tools that walk around thinking they are mighty and cool

I don't think it is that way everywhere anymore, and I certainly don't think that 75% of attendings feel that every med student should only do their specialty of choice. A pediatrician may not share a med student's passion for psychiatry and vice versa, but I really don't think they hold that against students, nor do I think that the majority will withhold a good grade from that student (IF they deserve it) just because they are or aren't going into a certain field.

I never hid the fact that I was going into surgery, nor did any of my other classmates hide their specialty choice. Sure, we caught some good natured ribbing from some residents and attendings, and the more sensisitive students may have taken that a little personally but no harm was intended. I still see that same ribbing going on between attendings in the physician lounge. Those students that worked hard enough to deserve it got Honors all the way through third year even of they were open about their career plans.

You don't need to lie or hide your interests to get a good grade, but you do need to be respectful and do more than the bare minimum of work required of you as a student to get a GOOD grade.

 

[mgdsh]

Agreed, there are far too many residents (esp in surgery) that get a kick out of having someone follow them around. It's almost as if they want someone to be there for every second of their misery. It's one of the primary reasons I hated my surgery rotation. Too many residents who wanted you to follow them around 24/7 to teach you next to nothing in the end. It's already bad enough for some of the scut work we had to do. But at least let us do what we want when we finish your damn scut. In all fairness, not all residents that have you follow them around are complete tools. Some of them are actually cool, and do teach you and do let you do cool procedures in return.

 

[justwondering]

haha, what was really interesting was watching my fellow 4th year students turn from the gunners they were into ppl who barely showed up for anything. my work ethic i didnt really change from 3rd yr to 4th yr post match because i never really did anything during 3rd/4th year even remotely gunner-ish. just did my work and helped out a bit on my rotations. i was never the one running off to get this or that for the residents before they even asked. i took naps when there was nothing to do, left as soon as they told me i could.

 

[Doctor Bagel]

Op, take note of this wise post above.

Just to reiterate what LADoc just said. The "pride" you are talking about has declined with reimbursements. You are lucky all they are doing is sleep, and not delibrately sabotaging stuff(don't underestimate what frustration can do to people). Yeah, I can just see that future primary care medstudent walking into the hospital with exuberating excitement after reading about the latest physician salary decline news.

PS: what the hell where you doing in the physician's lounge to begin with? Did the student take your spot on the couch?

So says the expert premed.

 

[mig26x]

Ya but for every one attending and resident that understand there are 3 that think every med student should do what they do and be miserbale along with them. Bunch of tools that walk around thinking they are mighty and cool

In my situation I could care less what the residents thought of my work during the surgery rotation since it was the attending filling out the evaluation!! LOL.

 

[TaiShan]

In my situation I could care less what the residents thought of my work during the surgery rotation since it was the attending filling out the evaluation!! LOL.

Well, attendings and residents do talk. So, if you piss off residents, it is more than likely that attendings will hear about it.

 

[swpm]

You seem to forget what life was like as a med student rotating on a service you could care less about. It's a drag!!

Er, that's not the point.

I hated psychiatry. I despised 4-6 hours of daily internal medicine rounds. There were other services I wasn't too enthusiastic about. They reminded me of organic chemistry as an undergrad and histology as an MS1. But I did my job, pleasantly, and in retrospect learned a lot more than I thought I was learning at the time.

Part of what makes us doctors and not a bunch of midlevels with overinflated self-esteem is that whole well-rounded, broad knowledge base. Third year medical students don't get to pick their clinical rotations for a reason. Every specialty they visit that year is important, regardless of their ultimate field, if only for context.

I've got nothing against anyone, at any level, who takes a nap in the lounge when there's nothing to do. Eat when you can, sleep when you can, don't **** with the pancreas, etc. But all the classic "apathetic med student tricks" ... from hiding in the library, to volunteering for coffee runs, to avoiding work ... there's no excuse.

I wouldn't go so far as to document some random student's laziness ... but I also wouldn't pretend that genuine laziness and apathy is somehow excusable because they're not interested in a required rotation.

An MS4 on an elective? Eh, who cares if he shows up. His educational loss, and his recreational sanity gain if he's off at the beach.

Med students are CUSTOMERS

No, they're not. I scoff in the general direction of such an absurd statement.

They're not buying anything, and no one's trying to sell anything to them. They're not window shopping for a specialty - they're spending a whole couple weeks or a month learning something about a core medical field that (whether they think it does or not) will be relevant to whatever they end up doing.

And finally, a certain level of basic professionalism is really expected out of medical students. They're not Taco Bell employees or college students any more.


All that said, I can think of a bare handful of students who've ever worked for me yet fit the profile double elle posted.

PS double elle ... your profile says you're an MS3. Is that old, or are you really getting upset about your fellow & senior classmates' habits? It's one thing if these slackers work for you and you're obligated to write evals on them anyway; it's another if they're your colleagues.

 

[PediBoneDoc]

This past year, our 3rd and 4th year classes have consisted of MANY MANY very LAZY students. I would have never dreamed of acting the way some of these people do. Not only are they lazy...but they don't really CARE that they are lazy. They don't seem to care that they are perceived as slackers - yet they are going after competative residencies, which always makes me laugh. The other day, I walked into the physician's lounge and found a 3rd year completely sprawled out SLEEPING on the couch! I've taken to documenting some of the behavior for when I have to make serious complaints to the DME. It just seems that pride is gone in these people. I don't mean a small percentage - I mean about 60% of our current students are like this. I can't imagine NOT caring that every attending/resident would potentially think I was worthless and this made me work even harder.

Any one else with this issue?

i think this is an issue, but no one who is currently in medical school will consider it an issue, because they "work so hard" "so many hours" "this isn't going to be on the shelf exam" "i'm not going into this specialty" "i have a hair appointment" pick an excuse.

i particularly don't care. in medical school, it is your education, do with it what you will. if a medical student seems interested, i will teach; if they don't show up, oh well. your all adults, it's not my jon to keep track of you. All i ask is not to get upset if you don't get the honors or high pass and you didn't show up.

there is a lot in medicine that seems useless at the time, but looking back i personally learned a lot when i didn't think i was learning. most of clinical medicine can not be taught in a book, or on a DVD, computer or internet. some of the skills that you need to develop have to be learned on the job. not sure how to get medical students and residents to believe that. do you have to follow a resident or attending around like a puppy. NO, it gets annoying. but you do need to participate in your own learning.

sleep all you want it's your money.

 

[PediBoneDoc]

Be lucky Im not a med student again. At the current costs, I would demand interns and residents bring me breakfast in bed at the Ritz and read me stories out of Harrison's at bed time.

Med students are CUSTOMERS, not recruits for the Navy SEALs, and in our increasing "Me" focused society, the customer is always right.

yeah, see on the clinical side, your medical school tuition means nothing to the resident cause you son't pay them. that goes for the attendings on the clinical side. there are some attendings that still receive somethin from the medical school for "teaching" activities. but for the most part, in clinical medicine, you income is based on production (clinical income or research grants) the medical student tuition means nothing. therefore, med studs are not customers. and in my field, we don't need to sell much of anything.

i would agree with the me focused society
it is something that those in education are going to have to deal with. this new Gen Y (mellenials). hmmm, i will figure them out 1 day

 

[Winged Scapula]

In my situation I could care less what the residents thought of my work during the surgery rotation since it was the attending filling out the evaluation!! LOL.

Interesting, because in my experience the attendings ALWAYS asked the residents what they thought about student X (seems that the attendings knew that the students acted differently around them than they did the rest of the time).

 

[mig26x]

Interesting, because in my experience the attendings ALWAYS asked the residents what they thought about student X (seems that the attendings knew that the students acted differently around them than they did the rest of the time).

And I had alot of attendings that their evaluations was filled by the resident and signed by the attending but in this case I knew before hand THAT attending filled them out himself, so it was a plus, LOL.

 

[Long Dong]

Bunch of tools that walk around thinking they are mighty and cool

Yeah in my 3rd year there was this one foolio who actually thought he had some game, cause one of the hot med students was on his service. She'd follow him around all day and was super nice to him. Foolio didn't know that outside of the hospital she wouldn't of even given him the time of day. What a tool, he actual thought he was gonna get some.

 

[Reaganite]

The OP does sound like a dick, but I think there is a lot of truth to what he/she says. I was always kind of amazed at what I saw during third year. Yeah, there was always a gunner on your team who would serve as the residents' little bitch, but for the most part, my fellow third years (myself included) were kinda lazy when it came to ward work . This mentality was, however, a product of the grading system at my school. Our grades largely depended on test scores and structured clinical exams. Our surgery rotation, for example, was 12 weeks long, yet we were only required to submit 1 evaluation, which counted for only 10% of the grade. There was simply no incentive to work hard on wards.

 

[double elle]

I think I was completely misunderstood....I, myself, am no gunner. I am a complete slacker at heart. However, I ELECTIVELY went to medical school. Therefore, I must suck it up, even the parts I don't like. No, I didn't forget what it was like to be a medical student - however, if there was work to be done, I tried to help get it done.


I'm not talking about students that don't have notes on 15 patients every morning. I'm talking students that walk in at 7:30 4 out of 5 days always with an excuse at to why they are late and have NO notes done..and haven't checked on ANYone. I'm talking about students who clock-watch all day and then hit the door promptly at 5pm, no matter what crap is hitting the fan - while us residents get our butts kicked with admits. (That has recently changed - the admitting team has a student stay until 7pm to help out until the intern goes on call. OMG - a 12 hour day for a med student!!!!)

As for whomever asked why I was in the physician's lounge in the first place..I simply walked in to grab a water out of the fridge and woke the 3rd year med student up. For goodness sake...when I was a student and wanted to get in a nap, I at least went to our own call rooms or tried to HIDE the fact that I was trying to nap...but I did do it - Just not in the PHYSICIAN's lounge - where meetings are held, docs go to veg, or where the director of the program I want to get into may walk in and find me sleeping at 1 in the afternoon.

Regarding documentation - I don't mean documenting "Student Dr. Blah was lazy because he didn't do back flips when I told him to go do a rectal." - I meant that it's difficult to give someone a bad eval when you have nothing documented as to WHY it's bad. I do not intend to "tell on" anyone for being naturally lazy, because we ALL want to be lazy at times. I'm refering to blantently NOT doing things and NOT caring about the consequences of that. Like...being in clinic all afternoon and coming back to the CCU and the student hasn't gotten the H&P done on a patient that's been there for 5 hours. It's not like the student was able to do anything else..can't write orders or actually do anything. Then, walked out the door at 5pm when the resident got back from clinic and left the admit to the resident. Going into my senior year of residency - the LAST thing I need to do is ANOTHER history and physical.

Or a student that purposely takes 5-6 hours to do an H&P and fully admits that it's because he doesn't want to have to do anything else that afternoon - so he takes his sweet time - while the resident gets 4 or 5 done.

I'm not looking for annoying gunners...but the above examples are simply WRONG. Surely you guys can't read this and think a student has every right to act this way??? Tired, sure - we all are -....Bummed about the way medicine is going..okay... - but there is still responsibility.

And I can't believe that if your GRADE or eval doesn't matter - only the test - that there is no incentive to work hard. (Can't remember who said that and I am terrible about getting more than one quote in post.) Hard work comes from the fact that it needs to be done - not that there is an external reason to do it. No, I don't expect everyone to fall in love with me or my service - but I do expect med students to act like med students and NOT college undergrads who are hanging around shadowing. Some rotations really do suck. I couldn't stand radiology and kept falling asleep. I hated my second medicine rotation my 3rd year. I couldn't stand ER - because of the attendings, not because it was ER. But I didn't SIT my way through those months...okay, I did for radiology.

Not sure what replies to my original post came from med students and what came from residents - but, it's the end of the year and I would expect everyone to be burned out - especially students. However, I would also expect some progression in performance as the year goes on and our facility hasn't seen that in the majority of students. Sure - they can give me differentials for everying - I could do that too if I got to sit and read all frickin day - but sometimes I need you to get off your butt to go see a patient who just got to the floor because I have someone crashing elsewhere. And if there isn't someone new to go see on the floor - then you need to be beside me as I take care of the person who is crashing, because you will be dealing with this at some point during internship.

Anyway, I'm not out to get medical students. I really like most of ours...just don't like that they don't do anything. We have quite a few 'older' students -older than me - in their 40's who have families, previous successful jobs,etc. It's especially hard dealing with these people, because it's hard telling someone 10 years older than me to get off their but and go do SOMEthing. I know life is exhausting. I am married with a kid, too. AND I'm the mommy. So, I am fully aware of the emotionally draining roles we all play.

Anyway, it seems as if my hospital is the only one with lazy med students. (or there are more med students posting on here that residents)

Have a good day everyone - today is my lazy day...already 6:57 am and I'm still in my jammies. Thank goodness for occasional slacker months - yes, I enjoy them too.

 

[Top Gun]

Double Elle, you're right. This is inexcusable. No med student should be taking 5 hours to do just one H & P, especially on purpose. Nor should they be strolling in late without getting anything done. Maybe if you tank them on their evals, it will be a wake-up call. And since you report to the attending on how they're doing, if they ever approach that attending asking for a letter of rec for residency, then they've basically screwed themselves.

 

[DarksideAllstar]

I think I was completely misunderstood....I, myself, am no gunner. I am a complete slacker at heart. However, I ELECTIVELY went to medical school. Therefore, I must suck it up, even the parts I don't like. No, I didn't forget what it was like to be a medical student - however, if there was work to be done, I tried to help get it done.


I'm not talking about students that don't have notes on 15 patients every morning. I'm talking students that walk in at 7:30 4 out of 5 days always with an excuse at to why they are late and have NO notes done..and haven't checked on ANYone. I'm talking about students who clock-watch all day and then hit the door promptly at 5pm, no matter what crap is hitting the fan - while us residents get our butts kicked with admits. (That has recently changed - the admitting team has a student stay until 7pm to help out until the intern goes on call. OMG - a 12 hour day for a med student!!!!)

Regarding documentation - I don't mean documenting "Student Dr. Blah was lazy because he didn't do back flips when I told him to go do a rectal." - I meant that it's difficult to give someone a bad eval when you have nothing documented as to WHY it's bad. I do not intend to "tell on" anyone for being naturally lazy, because we ALL want to be lazy at times. I'm refering to blantently NOT doing things and NOT caring about the consequences of that. Like...being in clinic all afternoon and coming back to the CCU and the student hasn't gotten the H&P done on a patient that's been there for 5 hours. It's not like the student was able to do anything else..can't write orders or actually do anything. Then, walked out the door at 5pm when the resident got back from clinic and left the admit to the resident. Going into my senior year of residency - the LAST thing I need to do is ANOTHER history and physical.

Or a student that purposely takes 5-6 hours to do an H&P and fully admits that it's because he doesn't want to have to do anything else that afternoon - so he takes his sweet time - while the resident gets 4 or 5 done.

Not sure what replies to my original post came from med students and what came from residents - but, it's the end of the year and I would expect everyone to be burned out - especially students. However, I would also expect some progression in performance as the year goes on and our facility hasn't seen that in the majority of students. Sure - they can give me differentials for everying - I could do that too if I got to sit and read all frickin day - but sometimes I need you to get off your butt to go see a patient who just got to the floor because I have someone crashing elsewhere. And if there isn't someone new to go see on the floor - then you need to be beside me as I take care of the person who is crashing, because you will be dealing with this at some point during internship.

Anyway, I'm not out to get medical students. I really like most of ours...just don't like that they don't do anything. We have quite a few 'older' students -older than me - in their 40's who have families, previous successful jobs,etc. It's especially hard dealing with these people, because it's hard telling someone 10 years older than me to get off their but and go do SOMEthing. I know life is exhausting. I am married with a kid, too. AND I'm the mommy. So, I am fully aware of the emotionally draining roles we all play.

Anyway, it seems as if my hospital is the only one with lazy med students. (or there are more med students posting on here that residents)

So, you are basically complaining that med students don't do enough of your work for you? What do you do if there are NO students on your service to begin with? Do you sit around and lament that you wish you had a med student so that he could go do an H&P for you? Why does it matter if you're a senior resident? Don't you get paid to do H&Ps and supervise the juniors? Last time I checked, senior status didn't exempt you from having to do H&Ps. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black. BTW, this is coming from a soon to be PGY1.

 

[Tone2002]

I didn't understand that part either, its your responsibilty at the end of the day ultimately to get the work done not the student. I never understood the mentality of residents who are paid to do a job, relying on a medical student to do their work or acting like its the end of the world when there are no students on the service.

 

[Llenroc]

I think the OP needs to take a long hard look in the mirror.

Frustration breeds losers. Don't blame others for your own problems!

 

[Winged Scapula]

I have to agree with the last two posters.

Medicine is a team - that means that the senior resident shouldn't be considered too important to do an H&P, remove a drain, or get the patient a bedpan.

Medical students are there to learn, not to do the work of the resident team. Now, preferably the work assigned to medical students is clinically useful and I would imagine that an H&P is. I'd give doublelle the benefit of the doubt and say that she understands that and it came across wrong in her post above.

I've had my share of medical students and even interns that couldn't be bothered to show up on time or to get their work done in a reasonable manner, so I completely sympathize. I've also found a medical student asleep in the resident's call room and threw a fit about it, if only because I was post-call (this was the old days and it was late afternoon and I was still in-house).

But lets not forget that the students are not there to make our jobs easier (most of the time, at least on surgery, they make your job harder...perhaps medicine is different).

 

[SLUser11]

This past year, our 3rd and 4th year classes have consisted of MANY MANY very LAZY students. I would have never dreamed of acting the way some of these people do. Not only are they lazy...but they don't really CARE that they are lazy. They don't seem to care that they are perceived as slackers - yet they are going after competative residencies, which always makes me laugh. The other day, I walked into the physician's lounge and found a 3rd year completely sprawled out SLEEPING on the couch! I've taken to documenting some of the behavior for when I have to make serious complaints to the DME. It just seems that pride is gone in these people. I don't mean a small percentage - I mean about 60% of our current students are like this. I can't imagine NOT caring that every attending/resident would potentially think I was worthless and this made me work even harder.

Any one else with this issue?

I couldn't read the whole thread (too long), but I do think that many medical students have a sense of entitlement that can get in the way of them working hard and learning "on the wards." They resent "scutwork" since it won't be on the shelf, etc.

Some of the stories I hear on SDN painted as everyday behavior would be enough to earn an immediate fail for most students at my school (SLU) and my current training program (KU). But, add these together plus my away rotations, and my opinion is limited to n=4, so really I don't know what the standard is across the board (but I do sense a trend of more self-entitled students at the "good" schools).

Honestly, I think that people wanting to do the bare minimum and only what will be noticed or graded is the makings of a horrible future resident. It's like a janitor that picks up a mop and starts scrubbing because his boss is walking by. I just hope their attitudes change before they get to residency, when their co-residents have to pick up their slack......

 

[miamidoc2b]

I couldn't read the whole thread (too long), but I do think that many medical students have a sense of entitlement that can get in the way of them working hard and learning "on the wards." They resent "scutwork" since it won't be on the shelf, etc.

Some of the stories I hear on SDN painted as everyday behavior would be enough to earn an immediate fail for most students at my school (SLU) and my current training program (KU). But, add these together plus my away rotations, and my opinion is limited to n=4, so really I don't know what the standard is across the board (but I do sense a trend of more self-entitled students at the "good" schools).

Honestly, I think that people wanting to do the bare minimum and only what will be noticed or graded is the makings of a horrible future resident. It's like a janitor that picks up a mop and starts scrubbing because his boss is walking by. I just hope their attitudes change before they get to residency, when their co-residents have to pick up their slack......

Who doesn't resent scutwork? You sound like a tool saying med students dont like scutwork as if they are supposed to. I wonder why your opinion is so poorly shared by others - maybe b/c it makes you look like a dick? Horrible future residents? Get your off your high horse.


To the op and others who agree with the "gung-ho follow me around like a ******" moement - Others have clearly pointed out that you need to do your own work and stop depending on the med students. Maybe you are just lazy? Or an attention *****?

 

[mig26x]

So, you are basically complaining that med students don't do enough of your work for you? What do you do if there are NO students on your service to begin with? Do you sit around and lament that you wish you had a med student so that he could go do an H&P for you? Why does it matter if you're a senior resident? Don't you get paid to do H&Ps and supervise the juniors? Last time I checked, senior status didn't exempt you from having to do H&Ps. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black. BTW, this is coming from a soon to be PGY1.

Very well said!! Im also going to be an PGY-1 this july and I dont see myself using med students to do my job.

 

[sophiejane]

Very well said!! Im also going to be an PGY-1 this july and I dont see myself using med students to do my job.

It's kind of scary to delegate too much to med students--even scut. I know I was slow as an MS3, even with scut...trying to find the lab, not knowing who to ask to get stuff done, taking forever on H&Ps because you are scared and want to do it right...forgetting things...

It's all part of the process, and we've all been there. Reading some of these comments, I'm really glad I will be at a community program next year, where the few med students that rotate there are treated well, as part of the team, and teaching is the #1 priority.

Maybe if the residents did more teaching and less scutting, med students would be more inspired to work hard.

 

[PediBoneDoc]

are medical students lazy? are residents lazy? i guess it depends on you perspective. if you were trained in the 60-70-80's, most definitely. if you were trained in the 90', probably. if you are in training now, probably not. from my perspective, they are just not hard workers. and before i get blasted for saying that as people do on this anonymous forum, it's just my opinion. like i said before, i could care less how much effort a medical student puts into their own education. that is their responsibility.

i think it is a work ethic issue. where does the medical student feel his/her best efforts are placed? studying for the shelf exam? showing attendings their knowledge? there is not much bang for the buck for showing up to rounds if the attending is not around or an exam is not given. this is a priority thing. this may be driven by the medical school grading system. this is definitely part of the generation that is coming into medical school now. is it wrong? i'm not sure yet. it is different. i think that people in training need to realize that one day you will not be in training and you will have to learn to do some of these things. pulling a chest tube without giving a pneumo; looking at wounds "it that infected or just normal healing?" a clinical rotation is for you see how the book knowledge translates into actual patient care.

oh and by the way, as far as student H&P's, they mean nothing anyway as far as charting by medicare guidelines. they can not be used as official charting or billing purposes as they were in the past. and if they are being used in that way, it will be a problem if those charts are audited.

 

[colbgw02]

But lets not forget that the students are not there to make our jobs easier (most of the time, at least on surgery, they make your job harder...perhaps medicine is different).

It's definitely not better or different on medicine. I was told before starting clinical rotations that the residents can likely do the work faster without students, and I've found that to be true.

Part of the problem here is that the system asks residents to also be teachers, when only a small handful of us actually have any interest in doing so.

 

[Llenroc]

It's definitely not better or different on medicine. I was told before starting clinical rotations that the residents can likely do the work faster without students, and I've found that to be true.

Part of the problem here is that the system asks residents to also be teachers, when only a small handful of us actually have any interest in doing so.

Why is that a problem? That's part of your job.

The next time you get a medical student who doesn't show interest, doesn't read, etc. I don't think you have any right to criticize them, because it seems like they walk the same path you do.

 

[colbgw02]

Why is that a problem? That's part of your job.

The next time you get a medical student who doesn't show interest, doesn't read, etc. I don't think you have any right to criticize them, because it seems like they walk the same path you do.

Are you serious? Do I really have to explain this to you? Do you really not understand that people won't do things that they're not interested in? Or if they do, their heart won't be in it so they're more likely to do a crappy job. It doesn't matter what their job description is.

I never criticized any students that I've had on my services; all I said is that resident can do their jobs faster without students than with them. Nice job of assuming that I don't show interest in the students or read. Where do you get that? You're pulling this crap out of left field.

I enjoy teaching, and I make a point of doing so whenever I have students assigned to me. I was simply pointing out issues that I've seen with the system as evidenced by the interaction between other residents and their students. If you're reading anything else into it, then that's your problem.

 

[double elle]

So, you are basically complaining that med students don't do enough of your work for you? What do you do if there are NO students on your service to begin with? Do you sit around and lament that you wish you had a med student so that he could go do an H&P for you? Why does it matter if you're a senior resident? Don't you get paid to do H&Ps and supervise the juniors? Last time I checked, senior status didn't exempt you from having to do H&Ps. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black. BTW, this is coming from a soon to be PGY1.

No, I'm really not complaining that they don't do 'enough' work...ANYthing is very appreciated. I'm complaining about the ones who don't do 'any' work. There is a difference. And yes, the work does get done - I make sure it get's done. That is my job, I 100% agree. I don't expect anything out of my student that I wouldn't do myself. I would never send a med student off to scut while I eat bonbons in the lounge...I'm working hard too. And the reason that it matters that I am a senior resident is because there are OTHER responsibilites...lectures, OTHER students to interact with, ER patients to go see (no, I don't send the student to see these patients), consults -because students can't do those at all. Our program is small and EVERYONE is extremely busy.

When I was a 4th year student, I ended up being on call with the same intern 3-4 times in a row. I would be doing an admit and I'd look up and see the intern standing in the doorway just watching me do the admit. He'd stand there, silent - not doing anything. Finally, I told him if he had enough time to stand around and watch me - he could do the admits himself. (mostly because it creeped me out) But, if I need some help getting things done - notes written, H&Ps, whatever...it's because I'm slammed, not because I want to watch Oprah.

Part of what I value (and enjoy) with my education of students is giving them the 'freedom' (not sure if that's the right word) of trying to go see a patient and simply coming back to tell me if the patient is 'sick'. Sounds stupid, but not everyone can simply look at a patient and think - wow - this isn't good. I've seen many students really progress with simple things like this (no matter how book-smart they are) and it's nice to see someone begin to think like a clinician. When a student is simply NOT around...there is NO opportunity for education. There are 2 sides to this...yeah, sometimes and extra pair of hands would be nice...but they also miss out on the cool stuff that goes on. (and then it really steams me when they expect to participate in procedures when they've been MIA the entire day). I just get the picture that alot of our students we have really don't want anything to do with patient care at all. They would be perfectly happy getting thru the entire month not even auscultating a set of lungs. (just my opinion...I guess this has all been my opinion, hasn't it? )

I really don't think I expect too much, well - being someone going into critical care - I know I'm a little more intense about stuff, however I greatly appreciate ANY paperwork that a student gets done..and admits (especially those, because I hate to dictate!). I've bought thank you cards, given gift cards..I do try to let people know when they've been a big help (med student, nurse, intern, whomever).

SLUuser11 - I completely agree with you.

I'm not sure if my b*tching is about not having help...or simply that I am in disbelief of the behavior people think they is acceptable.

And for DarksideAllStar - I'm going to try using your logic the next time my attending asks me to go see a patient..."Don't YOU get paid to do that? Last time I checked, it is really YOUR responsibility to make sure these patients are taken care of and I'm simply here to be taught." You can try that next year and fill us in oh how it goes.

 

[SLUser11]

Who doesn't resent scutwork? You sound like a tool saying med students dont like scutwork as if they are supposed to. I wonder why your opinion is so poorly shared by others - maybe b/c it makes you look like a dick? Horrible future residents? Get your off your high horse.


To the op and others who agree with the "gung-ho follow me around like a ******" moement - Others have clearly pointed out that you need to do your own work and stop depending on the med students. Maybe you are just lazy? Or an attention *****?

I used quotation marks for "scutwork" to point out that some people (most likely including you) see all unpleasant things as "scutwork." Read my past posts, and you'll see that I'm adamantly against true scutting of med students, and I do believe we have an obligation to teach, etc.

As for "depending on med students," that's ridiculous. Medical students typically make my job much harder.

1. I read and critique their notes
2. coach them through writing post-op orders
3. hold small group or one-on-one Q and A's or lectures
4. let them see and evaluate patients and then present to me, even when it would be much faster to see the patient myself since I will ultimately have to dictate the HandP/consult.
5. allow them to suture even though they are inherently very slow, and the nurses and anesthesia are glaring at me.

And many other things that make my day much longer and less efficient. I do this because I enjoy teaching and I want them to have a good experience.

However, when I run into students like you, I don't feel the motivation to spend all this extra time helping you learn about surgery, so I let you go home early, etc.......so to you and your sh@#ty work ethic, I don't look like a dick at all.......

There are plenty of things considered scutwork (dressing changes, suture or staple removal, H and Ps, etc) by whiney med students who hate to be inconvenienced. This is what doctors do! You're training to be a doctor! How would hospitals run if residents refused to do scut?

The most accurate, concise statement was told to me by a Neurology attending: "It's not scut until it's old hat." If you think you're too good to ever have to place a foley, start an IV, or help move a patient, then you don't belong in medicine.

Op, take note of this wise post above.

Just to reiterate what LADoc just said. The "pride" you are talking about has declined with reimbursements. Yeah, I can just see that future primary care medstudent walking into the hospital with exuberating excitement after reading about the latest physician salary decline news.

I read this earlier but didn't reply, but ARE YOU KIDDING ME?!? That's both:
1. extremely insulting, since it implies that as med students and residents our main motivation is money, which is also where we get our pride.

2. Extremely inaccurate, as you should know as a premed, since there's thousands of people that would kill to get into medical school, despite our declining reimbursements. They're full of extuberating excitement (most annoying two-word combo of the day, btw).

Please STFU, and please also don't become a doctor......and maybe you should get a vasectomy.

 

[Barry Otter]

Med students are usually a motivated bunch. In my experience, they're more likely than not to show up if it's a worthwhile lecture or clinical experience, even if no one is paying attention to their attendance. If they're lounging around and looking to shirk their clinical responsibilities, it makes me wonder if there are people or environmental factors that discourage them from putting in a good effort. Wouldn't it be more productive to have a talk with them to figure out if and why they're so disaffected, instead of fu*cking them in the ass with a bad eval? Documenting and writing up their goofs? That's just vindictive.

 

[DarksideAllstar]

And for DarksideAllStar - I'm going to try using your logic the next time my attending asks me to go see a patient..."Don't YOU get paid to do that? Last time I checked, it is really YOUR responsibility to make sure these patients are taken care of and I'm simply here to be taught." You can try that next year and fill us in oh how it goes.

Actually, attendings DO get paid to do that and they are the ones who are ultimately responsible for the patient, hence the reason why an attending will either round with the team or after them. The biggest difference between your relationship as a resident with the attending and a med student's relationship with a resident, is that in your position as a RESIDENT you are getting PAID to work at the hospital and learn how to make clinical decisions. You are being PAID to cover a service and learn on the job. My job as a MEDICAL STUDENT is to get as much hands on experience as I can, learn a bunch of minutia for the shelf exam, maybe a bit of actual info that would be useful in the care of patients, AND apparently bow down to each ******ed request from an inept/incompetent/lazy resident. It is my job to look out for MY education. Afterall, I didn't shell out >100K in loans to be changing dressings until 10pm every day when I could be at home actually LEARNING about my patients and getting ready for cases in the OR teh next day. The roles and responsibilities of med students and residents are drastically different, and having supposedly gone through third year and at least a year of residency, I find it very hard to believe that you can't see it. Its people like you that really drive students away from whatever specialty you are involved in. Get over yourself. I still think you are full of ****.

 

[DarksideAllstar]

There are plenty of things considered scutwork (dressing changes, suture or staple removal, H and Ps, etc) by whiney med students who hate to be inconvenienced. This is what doctors do! You're training to be a doctor! How would hospitals run if residents refused to do scut?

The most accurate, concise statement was told to me by a Neurology attending: "It's not scut until it's old hat." If you think you're too good to ever have to place a foley, start an IV, or help move a patient, then you don't belong in medicine.

For the 4-5 patients at a time I was responsible for on surgery I did all those goddamned things that you listed as scut. I did them without being asked. I did them without complaining. Hell, sometimes it was fun chit-chatting while I was with the patient and doing them (and great to be away from some jackass intern), but if someone thinks that for one second that they will "make me" do this **** on patients that I am not personally "responsible" for, you've got another thing coming. You think I'm lazy or "self-serving"? Fine by me. I loved helping out some of the interns and residents that were cool to us-- it wasn't an issue for me to stay late and help with a case or some post op rounds or whatever. The issue that I have is when a resident friggin ignores you all day and then gets all pissy when you tell them no. I am not hanging around for the amusement of the housestaff. If I can do something and learn I'll do it, and I will always do the work on the patients that I'm covering, but calling people lazy because they won't see the 10 other patients on the list, well, that's plain ******ed and the only way I'd do it is if the resident was 1) really cool or 2) taught me a lot of ****.

 

[Hard24Get]

This past year, our 3rd and 4th year classes have consisted of MANY MANY very LAZY students. I would have never dreamed of acting the way some of these people do. Not only are they lazy...but they don't really CARE that they are lazy. They don't seem to care that they are perceived as slackers - yet they are going after competative residencies, which always makes me laugh. The other day, I walked into the physician's lounge and found a 3rd year completely sprawled out SLEEPING on the couch! I've taken to documenting some of the behavior for when I have to make serious complaints to the DME. It just seems that pride is gone in these people. I don't mean a small percentage - I mean about 60% of our current students are like this. I can't imagine NOT caring that every attending/resident would potentially think I was worthless and this made me work even harder.

Any one else with this issue?

You know what, I agree with you. As a med student with a strong work ethic, I have to admit that I cannot identify with my classmates lazing around or rushing out of the hospital. I was gone for 4 yrs doing my PhD, and it seems that the group I rejoined is much lazier than my original class - maybe we are on a global decline of work ethic. Personally, I thrive on responsibility and experience and work well with resident who give me lots of it; withr away with those that just tell me to "go home" or "read". I have supposed, though, that when the time comes to work and have responsibility they will rise to the occasion, though I am probably seeing more stuff than they.

Of course, I am going into EM and love critical care, so maybe we just have similar personalities.

 

[GuP]

The more the op and SLUser11 posts , the more they seem like the kind of residents I would want to stay away from. Give the med students a break and do your own ****. Stop whining b/c this and that and this and that.

 

[raidermedic]

You know what, I agree with you. As a med student with a strong work ethic, I have to admit that I cannot identify with my classmates lazing around or rushing out of the hospital. I was gone for 4 yrs doing my PhD, and it seems that the group I rejoined is much lazier than my original class - maybe we are on a global decline of work ethic. Personally, I thrive on responsibility and experience and work well with resident who give me lots of it; withr away with those that just tell me to "go home" or "read". I have supposed, though, that when the time comes to work and have responsibility they will rise to the occasion, though I am probably seeing more stuff than they.

I think a lot of it depends on how your team treats you as well. On most of my rotations the residents have gone out of their way to make me feel like part of the team. I had no problem doing scut work because I felt like I was contributing to the team. And I think I've learned quite a bit by doing H&Ps all afternoon and having the residents critique it or by having the residents go over lab values with me after I had "fetched" them.
However I have had one rotation which will forever live in infamy. The attendings were great but instead of residents the service used midlevels although I could see residents possibly doing the same thing. There was no teaching on this rotation and any time I was told to do something it was with a snide condescending tone. And a few particularly bitter midlevels loved to taunt med students by saying "Gee DOCTOR (with strong voice inflection when they said doctor) you forgot to write this on your note." Or "Hurry up DOCTOR." Not too mention that they loved it when PA students would somehow trump the med students on treatment plans. Although for the record I don't see the answer of "Using the sepsis standing orders" as a real answer to "what do we do for this patient?" This was the only rotation where I was in "lazy med student" mode. Sorry but I am not going to smile and gleefully accept to do scut work if you're not going to teach me anything AND treat me like crap.

 

[SLUser11]

The issue that I have is when a resident friggin ignores you all day and then gets all pissy when you tell them no. I am not hanging around for the amusement of the housestaff. If I can do something and learn I'll do it, and I will always do the work on the patients that I'm covering, but calling people lazy because they won't see the 10 other patients on the list, well, that's plain ******ed and the only way I'd do it is if the resident was 1) really cool or 2) taught me a lot of ****.

Well, from what you've described, I don't think that level-headed residents would call you lazy. I honestly am not a fan on the scut-and-reward-with-teaching concept that is still prevalent at old-school programs (including my own med school). Teaching should come regardless. If a resident ignores you, and then "scuts" you later on with work unrelated to patient care, then the residents is at fault.

Still, I take a little offense to you assuming that residents are lazy or inept for asking you to do these things. They might be trying to teach, but just suck at it. For every resident that truly sucks, there's at least one resident that is normal, with a student that just resents being worked hard.

Either way, if you wear on your sleeve any of the sentiment that you're expressing on SDN when you're in a clinical environment, the team is going to pick up on it and label you as disrespectful and self-entitled.

The more the op and SLUser11 posts , the more they seem like the kind of residents I would want to stay away from. Give the med students a break and do your own ****. Stop whining b/c this and that and this and that.

I'm not whining at all, and I think I made it clear with my last post that I don't give work to med students so that I don't have to "do my own s#@t." It creates more work for me to involve students. I do it because I think it's necessary to the learning process.

You're robbing yourself of a practical education if you try to spend your entire rotation in the library preparing for the shelf. Even if you're not planning on surgery as a specialty, by shying away from floor work or OR time, you're basically saying that you're okay with being an incomplete doctor, with tunnel vision toward your future specialty.


I am an intern now, and was in your shoes 1-2 years ago. I haven't lost sight of what it's like to be a student. I don't reduce students to scutmonkeys or "vitals b@tches." But if I let them go home after 1pm so they can go study, etc, I'm robbing them of the 100K+ ($250K for me) they spent to learn how to be a doctor.

If you want to spend 100K+ to sit in the library and read Pretest, go ahead. You'll probably have a hard time hiding your disinterest and self-entitlement from me, and I'll most likely let you go home at 1pm, not for your sake, but because I don't feel any obligation to teach you.