DO vs. Caribbean MD?

[facetguy]

If you could do it all again (assuming you have already done it), would you go the DO route, or would you go to the Caribbean for an MD? I'm up in the air right now as to which path to pursue. Reading some of the posts on this osteopathic forum has me thinking twice about the DO route. Any thoughts?

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[fireflygirl]

You know I have often thought of this issue too but after talking to several MD and DO physicians and after spending time with DO students/physicians at the hospital I work at (Best Children's Hospital in the country), I really appreciate the DO route. I am really excited to be starting at PCOM and start my path to a career in medicine. I have spent time researching match results, residency options, how many students go each year and to what programs and I am far happier and secure in seeing PCOM's (and other DO programs') results than the caribbean school's results. I am not trying to insult any Caribbean students' but from the time I have spent with physicians in the field, I would rather be going to the DO program and a good one at that. I have three advisors - two from the post bac program and one private - and all three of them strongly agree and are pleased to see me going to PCOM.

But at the end of the day, it's what you make of it. If you haven't already, spend some time at the DO schools you may be going to or with current physicians practicing in the field. You may get a different picture. Also, take the posts on SDN with a grain of salt - I often find some very ignorant people on the whole DO vs. MD thing and it's easy to get swayed by a small population who have 3.8/40 stats on this board.

Bottom line - get the proof/security by actively talking to docs/students, not from SDN.

 

[ShyRem]

I'd go DO again in a heartbeat.

 

[packitinstan]

You will probably have an easier time securing higher quality rotations at an osteopathic school along with greater oppurtunities to conduct research and make connections. I still hesistate to recommend DO programs simply as a backup to US MD, although that's what happens in many cases.

 

[TexasTriathlete]

If I could go back to 18 years old and start over, I'd go to UT-Southwestern.

 

[spicedmanna]

If you could do it all again (assuming you have already done it), would you go the DO route, or would you go to the Caribbean for an MD? I'm up in the air right now as to which path to pursue. Reading some of the posts on this osteopathic forum has me thinking twice about the DO route. Any thoughts?

I would, without question, take the same path. While all pathways have their issues, I still feel that the choice I made was the right one. I could come up with all kinds of logical reasons to pick one over the other, but at the end, you are just going to have to trust yourself to know what path is going to be best and most satisfying for you. Nevertheless, the conventional wisdom is that attending a US medical school is preferable to attending a Caribbean medical school. Hands down, it's the safer and more secure choice.

 

[SomeDoc]

DO again, most definitely. Just go where you'll be happy.

That being said, I didn't have to apply offshore, and was well qualified (90%ile MCAT, good GPA top tier school) for the other mainland schools, but just went the AACOM route.

 

[SomeDoc]

Important addendum: you will perform best in the place you are most happy.

 

[MJB]

If I could go back to 18 years old and start over, I'd go to UT-Southwestern.

Heh...if I could go back about 14 years (God, has it been that long?), I'd have gone to Kansas on in-state tuition, and it would have been for cost of tuition more than anything else. I had a great 1st semester of undergrad in the fall of 1994, then had a GREAT last 3.5 years of college...though that "greatness" had little to do with studying or getting GOOD grades.

 

[MossPoh]

If I could go back to 18 years old and start over, I'd go to UT-Southwestern.

Well yea, if I could go back to 18 I would take a state school. Save that 100,000 dollars. Learn to study, seek counseling for the depression that gave me that 1.98 gpa for the first year, and a bunch of other stuff.

I would much rather go DO than carib though. Just too inconvenient.

 

[ingridska]

D.O. - no doubt about it. I don't know where people get this idea that D.O. schools are less qualified. I talk with a friend in MD school regularly, and we have learned the same things. Many of my classmates will take COMLEX and USMLE - the material is the same (for the most part, enough to take either exam), and I think you'd be much better off doing D.O. vs Caribbean MD (why don't you just do U.S. MD if you are so concerned about it?)

 

[facetguy]

...and I think you'd be much better off doing D.O. vs Caribbean MD (why don't you just do U.S. MD if you are so concerned about it?)

1. Age (39)
2. Low expectations for MCAT (see #1)

 

[TexasTriathlete]

Well yea, if I could go back to 18 I would take a state school. Save that 100,000 dollars. Learn to study, seek counseling for the depression that gave me that 1.98 gpa for the first year, and a bunch of other stuff.

I would much rather go DO than carib though. Just too inconvenient.

Ha! Child's play! My 1st-year GPA was probably less than 0.5

 

[imps4343]

i have many friends at carrb schools, according to them(some are now at whycoff H hospital in brooklyn) when u go outside of the US u are considered an img, and u will not be given prime choise of residency via the match system, some img's go outside the match given = board scores. All img's have to pass the usmle. Those that do well will have the option of specialty residency, those that dont will get the less paying PC, which many allos do not really want

 

[167649]

i have many friends at carrb schools, according to them(some are now at whycoff H hospital in brooklyn) when u go outside of the US u are considered an img, and u will not be given prime choise of residency via the match system, some img's go outside the match given = board scores. All img's have to pass the usmle. Those that do well will have the option of specialty residency, those that dont will get the less paying PC, which many allos do not really want

In the US allo residency match:

USMD>USDO>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>CarribMD>IntlMD

And of course there are osteopathic residencies exclusive to DO graduates.

You also have to consider the fact that enrollment in both US allo and osteo med schools is increasing now and will continue to increase in the near future, while US residency positions are mostly stable. This won't really effect US trained docs as much, but will mostly hurt carribean and international graduates, who will have more competition to get fewer spots because more US trained docs will be taking them.

So in terms of residency opportunities DO is way superior.

 

[packitinstan]

In the US allo residency match:

USMD>USDO>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>CarribMD>IntlMD

And of course there are osteopathic residencies exclusive to DO graduates.

You also have to consider the fact that enrollment in both US allo and osteo med schools is increasing now and will continue to increase in the near future, while US residency positions are mostly stable. This won't really effect US trained docs as much, but will mostly hurt carribean and international graduates, who will have more competition to get fewer spots because more US trained docs will be taking them.

So in terms of residency opportunities DO is way superior.

US MD>US DO>Big 4 Carrib>Int MD

in terms of ACGME specialties. I don't think there are that many carrots in between US DO and the Big 4 loll

 

[facetguy]

Thanks to everyone for the input.

in terms of ACGME specialties. I don't think there are that many carrots in between US DO and the Big 4 loll

Can you explain the 'carrots' thing? I'm not sure I get it.

 

[MossPoh]

Ha! Child's play! My 1st-year GPA was probably less than 0.5

Mine would've been, but I dropped 3 courses.

 

[167649]

US MD>US DO>Big 4 Carrib>Int MD

in terms of ACGME specialties. I don't think there are that many carrots in between US DO and the Big 4 loll

Thanks to everyone for the input.



Can you explain the 'carrots' thing? I'm not sure I get it.

He was referring to the carrot symbol = >

Perhaps I overdid it with the carrots, but my point was that for residency purposes, graduating from a US med school, MD or DO, affords a much better opportunity in the match overall than the carribean and this difference is projected to only widen because of the expanding enrollment of US schools.

 

[cyclohexanol]

He was referring to the carrot symbol = >

Actually, that is incorrect.

^ -- caret
> -- greater than
< -- less than

Note that < and > are also sometimes known as angle brackets, chevrons, and hoinkies in programming terms.

 

[packitinstan]

Actually, that is incorrect.

^ -- caret
> -- greater than
< -- less than

Note that < and > are also sometimes known as angle brackets, chevrons, and hoinkies in programming terms.

you learn something new everyday

I think it will also get harder for us DO students to get into more competitive residencies with the opening of all these new md/do schools especially with the cap on residencies firmly in place...but yea, still easier than it will be for IMGs.

 

[167649]

Actually, that is incorrect.

^ -- caret
> -- greater than
< -- less than

Note that < and > are also sometimes known as angle brackets, chevrons, and hoinkies in programming terms.

If spelling it as carrot is wrong, I don't want to be right.

 

[Jpc984]

Are there any countries that have better medical education than the U.S.? I am just curious.

 

[facetguy]

Are there any countries that have better medical education than the U.S.? I am just curious.

Carrotland...top notch medical programs. But they're real sticklers for spelling.

 

[RockfordWF]

If you could do it all again (assuming you have already done it), would you go the DO route, or would you go to the Caribbean for an MD? I'm up in the air right now as to which path to pursue. Reading some of the posts on this osteopathic forum has me thinking twice about the DO route. Any thoughts?

This is a no-brainer. As an FMG, you have MUCH MORE red tape to pass through than as a DO.

You also get a much more inferior education at a Caribbean school.

You shouldn't base the ignorant opinions of pre-meds on SDN as a decision breaker.

 

[polycythemia]

i am reading all sorts of whacky theories on here regarding residency and quality of education and whatnot. Bottom line is it is what you make of it. I know i am posting in "enemy" territory but i went the carib route and hands down i did better on my boards and my core rotations than my buddies that went the DO route- and guess what, they tried to land residencies in big cities but 4of the 5 are stuck in middle of michigan and rural georgia....its unfair to say the quality of education is inferior- i rotated with DO students and I got the best evaluation on our team( i guess since i didnt know as much it helped me out ). DO students need to stop thinking one is inferior over the other because all my friends that go to US MD schools think the same about DO school, and i have to constantly correct them..so many other factors go in..such as how hard you work, enthusiasm, and care for patients. 15 yrs from now when you are practicing it wont matter..also lets face it...not everyone likes having DO behind their name and having to keep explaning it to people that almost always ends in a circular conversation..

 

[novado]

Depending on what specialty you want to go into, some are easier for DO's and others are easier for FMG's. It is up to you. Realize that stafford student loans (not private loans) with better interest rates are easier to attain going to a DO school than a Caribbean school. I think that tuition is similar, but it does matter when you start paying off your loans.

 

[facetguy]

Depending on what specialty you want to go into, some are easier for DO's and others are easier for FMG's.

This is an important issue. Can you give me an idea as to which specialties I would have a better chance at as a DO vs. an FMG? Do FMGs have a better shot at certain specialties?

 

[olliemctuffy]

This is an important issue. Can you give me an idea as to which specialties I would have a better chance at as a DO vs. an FMG? Do FMGs have a better shot at certain specialties?

No, not that I've heard. Some specialties in ACGME are essentially closed off to both FMGs and DOs, primarily surgical subspecialties and derm. There are always exceptions but this is primarily true. Otherwise, it's more about you than where you went. Do well in rotations, smoke the boards and have good interviews and you'll be fine.
A DO bias still definitely exists in some locations and once an FMG completes US residency this will not be an issue for them, where as it will be for DOs until the older MDs who carry biases against DOs retire or die.

 

[rddoms]

Go to Opportunities.osteopathic.org and look at all of the osteopathic residencies they have. I habe been at KCOM for a year and a half, working on my MS degree. I start med school here in august. All I can say is that you have nothing to fear coming to a DO school. And you can stay in the country!

 

[evenflowcarter]

IF YOU GO TO THE CARIB SCHOOLS FOR THE GLORIOUS MD, YOU WILL NOT BE ABLE TO MATCH UNTIL AFTER ALL OF THE MDs AND DOs HAVE CHOSEN

YOU GET TO PICK FROM THE SCRAPS AND GET WHATEVER CRAP RESIDENCIES ARE LEFT OVER.

BE PRO AND GO DO.

 

[facetguy]

IF YOU GO TO THE CARIB SCHOOLS FOR THE GLORIOUS MD, YOU WILL NOT BE ABLE TO MATCH UNTIL AFTER ALL OF THE MDs AND DOs HAVE CHOSEN

YOU GET TO PICK FROM THE SCRAPS AND GET WHATEVER CRAP RESIDENCIES ARE LEFT OVER.

I'm not sure that's true.

 

[evenflowcarter]

I'm not sure that's true.

this is a pretty well known fact

its why many caribs transfer to DO schools after 1st year

 

[spicedmanna]

i am reading all sorts of whacky theories on here regarding residency and quality of education and whatnot. Bottom line is it is what you make of it.

Generally true, but I think the consensus is that it is less risky attending a US medical school.

I know i am posting in "enemy" territory...

There's no need to take sides, or to create unnecessary polarities and conflicts. We are all colleagues here. We will be working together.

but i went the carib route and hands down i did better on my boards and my core rotations than my buddies that went the DO route- and guess what, they tried to land residencies in big cities but 4of the 5 are stuck in middle of michigan and rural georgia....its unfair to say the quality of education is inferior- i rotated with DO students and I got the best evaluation on our team( i guess since i didnt know as much it helped me out ).

Well, congratulations; that's wonderful. I'm happy to hear about your success. I hope my path leads me to much success as well. Nevertheless, the evidence you present, namely your anecdote describing your own experience, isn't compelling proof of much, expect your own experience. Again, I will state that, overall, it is less risky to attend a US medical school. This doesn't speak to individual success, of course.

DO students need to stop thinking one is inferior over the other because all my friends that go to US MD schools think the same about DO school, and i have to constantly correct them..so many other factors go in..such as how hard you work, enthusiasm, and care for patients. 15 yrs from now when you are practicing it wont matter..also lets face it...not everyone likes having DO behind their name and having to keep explaning it to people that almost always ends in a circular conversation..

I don't believe any knowledgeable source here implied anything about inferiority. If you've came across that, I wouldn't take it seriously. Again, we are all colleagues here.

Also, it's a pretty big myth that osteopathic physicians need to explain their degree to endless people. It's just not so. It happens sometimes, but the prevalence is low. Also, talking about osteopathic medicine is not difficult at all, but becomes a good opening for conversation and interest. I think it's far from annoying and definitely not circular.

 

[Old_Mil]

If you could do it all again (assuming you have already done it), would you go the DO route, or would you go to the Caribbean for an MD? I'm up in the air right now as to which path to pursue. Reading some of the posts on this osteopathic forum has me thinking twice about the DO route. Any thoughts?

Hindsight being 20/20, FMG - the key being can you either get into a good one (there are few), or can you go to Europe and would you be satisfied staying and working there.

There are a handful of decent US DO schools, and some really marginal ones. If you decide to go DO, OSUCOM and MSUCOM (neither of which I attended) are quite good. The problem is that the OMM departments at DO schools take themselves way too seriously and demand that all first and second years spend an inordinate amount of time practicing and memorizing their unique form of massage. This really sucks a lot of time out of the curriculum and your education in "real" medicine, your board prep time, and your time off will all suffer for it. There are only so many hours in a day, and every hour that you're in OMM lab is an hour that you're not doing Pharm flashcards, looking at cadavers, or working out.

Having gone DO, I can't recommend that route to people unless the AOA gets serious about reducing the amount of time that OMM occupies in the curriculum, gets rid of cranial, and acts more responsibly when it comes to opening multiple branch campuses of schools/for profit schools.

 

[doc20]

is DO even recognized outside of USA?
just another point to wonder, remember MD is internationally recognized.i.e Europe etc..
I dont think thats the case with DO, so if in future you plan to go outside US.
Not implying DO are inferior or anything but thats how it stands right now

 

[RockfordWF]

i am reading all sorts of whacky theories on here regarding residency and quality of education and whatnot. Bottom line is it is what you make of it. I know i am posting in "enemy" territory but i went the carib route and hands down i did better on my boards and my core rotations than my buddies that went the DO route- and guess what, they tried to land residencies in big cities but 4of the 5 are stuck in middle of michigan and rural georgia....its unfair to say the quality of education is inferior- i rotated with DO students and I got the best evaluation on our team( i guess since i didnt know as much it helped me out ). DO students need to stop thinking one is inferior over the other because all my friends that go to US MD schools think the same about DO school, and i have to constantly correct them..so many other factors go in..such as how hard you work, enthusiasm, and care for patients. 15 yrs from now when you are practicing it wont matter..also lets face it...not everyone likes having DO behind their name and having to keep explaning it to people that almost always ends in a circular conversation..

There are people at DO schools who perform high or low on the boards, and there are people in Caribbean schools who do the same. This is actually irrelevant.

What is relevant is that certain residencies accept DO's and either don't accept FMG's or just hold them to a higher standard.

There are other residencies where this is the opposite. You have to decide what specialty you are interested in. The difference, however, is that if you choose a specialty where you are discriminated against as a DO, you can always do a DO residency. As an FMG, your options are limited.

As far as "explaining the DO behind your name" --- this rarely IF EVER happens, unless you are speaking to a pre-med on SDN.

 

[RockfordWF]

is DO even recognized outside of USA?
just another point to wonder, remember MD is internationally recognized.i.e Europe etc..
I dont think thats the case with DO, so if in future you plan to go outside US.
Not implying DO are inferior or anything but thats how it stands right now

It depends on the country. It is recognized in a large number of countries, but there are a few that don't. If you have your heart set on a certain country, do your research.

 

[evenflowcarter]

There are people at DO schools who perform high or low on the boards, and there are people in Caribbean schools who do the same. This is actually irrelevant.

What is relevant is that certain residencies accept DO's and either don't accept FMG's or just hold them to a higher standard.

There are other residencies where this is the opposite. You have to decide what specialty you are interested in. The difference, however, is that if you choose a specialty where you are discriminated against as a DO, you can always do a DO residency. As an FMG, your options are limited.

As far as "explaining the DO behind your name" --- this rarely IF EVER happens, unless you are speaking to a pre-med on SDN.

above poster is very knowledgeable
having gotten into the mayo medicine residency (as a DO), I have talked to the program director, and he has stated that caribs match after the MD/DOs have pooled their rankings.

no one cares if you are MD/DO but the ERAS applicant online system labels you as a FMG/IMG so you are screwed if you go CARIB

 

[jbone]

DO

Hands down. (no pun intended)

 

[docbill]

I use to think the same as most of you in the Osteopathic forum. Defend the profession. I respect you guys for standing up for your future profession.

However, I think the OP should evaluate everything and consider the options and then choose something s/he will be happy with. At the end, with so little that I know, I figure out that DO or FMG MD are more ore less IDENTICAL for matching in residency (especially if you are US citizen).

Everyone knows how hard it is to get into medical school and as long as you work hard at it and do well on the boards you will have no problem being successful.

DO profession is identical to MD, but with a different flavor. Some like Pepsi and some like Coke. But I believe Coke was the original one with Coccain in it at one time.

 

[arsenewenger]

If spelling it as carrot is wrong, I don't want to be right.

hmmm......I agree .

 

[JadinSleeper]

Hindsight being 20/20, FMG - the key being can you either get into a good one (there are few), or can you go to Europe and would you be satisfied staying and working there.

There are a handful of decent US DO schools, and some really marginal ones. If you decide to go DO, OSUCOM and MSUCOM (neither of which I attended) are quite good. The problem is that the OMM departments at DO schools take themselves way too seriously and demand that all first and second years spend an inordinate amount of time practicing and memorizing their unique form of massage. This really sucks a lot of time out of the curriculum and your education in "real" medicine, your board prep time, and your time off will all suffer for it. There are only so many hours in a day, and every hour that you're in OMM lab is an hour that you're not doing Pharm flashcards, looking at cadavers, or working out.

Having gone DO, I can't recommend that route to people unless the AOA gets serious about reducing the amount of time that OMM occupies in the curriculum, gets rid of cranial, and acts more responsibly when it comes to opening multiple branch campuses of schools/for profit schools.

I almost 100% agree with you. However, I went DO, and looking back, I still would do it again over a Carib MD. I just could not see dealing with all the red tape involved in going outside the US for a medical degree.

But I was in no way prepared for how much I would truly hate and be disgusted by the OMM crammed down our throats. Old_Mil is absolutely right about the time demanded by the OMM departments to memorize ridiculous 'tenderpoints' and arcane treatment techniques biting into the precious time you have to learn REAL EVIDENCE-BASED MEDICINE.

 

[Shinken]

Well, No DO vs Carib MD discussion is complete without statistics provided by someone.

Check out the match rate for US MDs, US DOs, and FMGs as a group: http://www.ecfmg.org/cert/factcard.pdf (would you like to be in a group that averages 50% match rate? maybe it's a bit higher with non-documented outside the match offers, but probably not much higher)

Check out the pass rates for USMLE (a test required for some DOs to match at competitive specialties but not required for licensure): http://www.usmle.org/Scores_Transcripts/performance/2006.html The data is for 2006, the most recent data. FMGs consistently pass at a lower rate as a group compared to both US MDs and US DOs. You'd imagine that as the Steps increase, so would the passing percentages since the FMGs that fail to pass Step 1 wouldn't sit for Step 2, etc. However, the pass rates are low even all the way to Step 3. DOs, interestingly enough, outperformed MDs on Step 3.

Statistics are statistics, so interpret them as you will. However, as a group, I'd rather be part of the DO group than the FMG group. The odds simply aren't in your favor.

 

[J1515]

not everyone likes having DO behind their name and having to keep explaning it to people that almost always ends in a circular conversation..

How often do you think this happens? I'd be curious to hear what you think is a realistic # of times per day/month/year.

 

[Vizsla]

Well, No DO vs Carib MD discussion is complete without statistics provided by someone.

Check out the match rate for US MDs, US DOs, and FMGs as a group: http://www.ecfmg.org/cert/factcard.pdf (would you like to be in a group that averages 50% match rate? maybe it's a bit higher with non-documented outside the match offers, but probably not much higher)

Check out the pass rates for USMLE (a test required for some DOs to match at competitive specialties but not required for licensure): http://www.usmle.org/Scores_Transcripts/performance/2006.html The data is for 2006, the most recent data. FMGs consistently pass at a lower rate as a group compared to both US MDs and US DOs. You'd imagine that as the Steps increase, so would the passing percentages since the FMGs that fail to pass Step 1 wouldn't sit for Step 2, etc. However, the pass rates are low even all the way to Step 3. DOs, interestingly enough, outperformed MDs on Step 3.

Statistics are statistics, so interpret them as you will. However, as a group, I'd rather be part of the DO group than the FMG group. The odds simply aren't in your favor.

a 5% diff between DO vs Carib step 1 and a 3% diff between DO vs Carib Step 2....you're really making a huge deal out of those numbers? if you wanted to point out a glaring discrepancy, how about the 17% diff between MD and DO pass rates on Step 1 even when both schools apparently teach the same material except for OMM

 

[babydocjelly]

I would go DO over any MD school anywhere... I went DO because I DO believe in holistic medicine. I am bringing this up because I think the point of Osteopathy is completely being ignored here. If all you care about is what goes after your name, having prestige, getting into a big name residency, etc., then I think you'd be going to Osteopathic medical school for the wrong reasons. (Yes, I do realize that the reason a lot, maybe even most, people go to DO schools because they want to be doctors and don't give a hoot about OMT.) I would like to see more people who actually want to be DOs going to DO schools. I like OMT, I believe in it and I use it. I would have not learned it in the Carribean or even at the University, etc. I am proud of my skills. With that being said, I would like to add that I think that the AOA is doing a crappy job and needs to shape up with our residency programs, board exams and even that ******ed journal they send out. Even the DO emblem looks pretty generic if you ask me. But I mean it's whatever... what matters to me at the end of the day is that I have received an excellent education, and excellent skills that can really help a lot of people one day!

 

[RockfordWF]

How often do you think this happens? I'd be curious to hear what you think is a realistic # of times per day/month/year.

It only happens in a negative way by pre-meds and med students who never wanted to go to DO school in the first place.

In practice, it is only brought up as a positive, i.e.:

"DO's are much more friendly than MD's." <-- said to me by at least 5 or 6 patients.

 

[group_theory]

Just a friendly reminder that this is a very volatile subject that have derailed many similar threads in the past.

Hopefully by keeping a reasonable discussion and professional demeanor, this thread won't have to be closed.

 

[RockfordWF]

a 5% diff between DO vs Carib step 1 and a 3% diff between DO vs Carib Step 2....you're really making a huge deal out of those numbers? if you wanted to point out a glaring discrepancy, how about the 17% diff between MD and DO pass rates on Step 1 even when both schools apparently teach the same material except for OMM

Pass rates are irrelevant.

If you have 100 people in a class, and 99 score very high and 1 fails, this is much better than 100 people marginally passing.

The pass rate does not tell you how well someone did on the exam.

In addition, it should be noted that DO students are prepared for the COMLEX, which has a different style of questions---these are not included in the statistics above.

With all of that being said, there are a large number of DO schools that have a 99-100% pass rate on both the COMLEX and USMLE.

The take home point, however, is that with the exact same USMLE score, an FMG is still held to a lower standard than a DO.