Why is the Caribbean so bad....????

[license43]

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[CoomassieBlue57]

In before lock.

 

[exacto]

For 25% of the people its an OK thing... if you want to put about 300K on a 25% chance of making it out of medical school into an OK residency then its great for you!

Can you become a doctor if you go to the Carrib in an OK residency, yes...But I personally wouldn't put 300k on less of a chance than you have at a roulette table in Las vegas.

 

[738177]

Refreshing change of topic from the usual sdn crap

 

[hallowmann]

The biggest problem I see is attrition. You see the success stories in residency. 25-60% (depending on the school) don't make it to graduation. Of those that do, residency placement rates are again anywhere from 55-85%. So that doesn't bode well. The ones that made it most likely would have made it in a DO or US MD school.

Other Issues:
-As a Carib graduate, you have more hoops to jump through just to get licensed as an IMG, even if you go to one of the only 5 schools whose degree is recognized by medical boards in all 50 states.
-You, generally speaking, have to apply to more residency programs (50-100% more) than US MDs or DOs even in the less competitive specialties you mentioned. I met a few SGU applicants on the trail. They had similar scores to me, but applied to way more programs to get fewer interviews.
-Cost. It's expensive on the islands. SGU's tuition is also more than almost all US med schools, and is practically double the tuition at my DO school. It's also expensive traveling around to rotation sites potentially in completely different states. You will probably travel for DO schools, but in most you could do a lot of your cores in one system or area.
-Time. I have yet to meet one person that didn't take 5 years after starting to get to residency. I have a lot of friends that went to the islands. Some started in Jan, so they had a delay in order to apply for the match. Others took longer (like months) for boards, which US students don't have the luxury of. And worse yet, some had rotations dropped and had to delay graduating. Also, ECFMG certification and a PTAL (only for CA) is pretty important for residency applications, and they take time to get, so for some they end up delaying their ago because of that.

There are others, but I feel like these are the biggest ones. Medical training is probably fine, and a lot of my friends have made it through and are great docs.

 

[68PGunner]

Assuming that you make it to third year, how would you feel about one month of IM rotation in Florida, one month of rotation in Idaho, and let's say one month of rotation in like Ohio. Do you get the point now? It blows a$$ when you are flying all over the country just for third year rotations. It's not cool bc you have to set up shelter, transportation, and other adult stuff.

 

[BorntobeDO?]

The biggest problem I see is attrition. You see the success stories in residency. 25-60% (depending on the school) don't make it to graduation. Of those that do, residency placement rates are again anywhere from 55-85%. So that doesn't bode well. The ones that made it most likely would have made it in a DO or US MD school.

Other Issues:
-As a Carib graduate, you have more hoops to jump through just to get licensed as an IMG, even if you go to one of the only 5 schools whose degree is recognized by medical boards in all 50 states.
-You, generally speaking, have to apply to more residency programs (50-100% more) than US MDs or DOs even in the less competitive specialties you mentioned. I met a few SGU applicants on the trail. They had similar scores to me, but applied to way more programs to get fewer interviews.
-Cost. It's expensive on the islands. SGU's tuition is also more than almost all US med schools, and is practically double the tuition at my DO school. It's also expensive traveling around to rotation sites potentially in completely different states. You will probably travel for DO schools, but in most you could do a lot of your cores in one system or area.
-Time. I have yet to meet one person that didn't take 5 years after starting to get to residency. I have a lot of friends that went to the islands. Some started in Jan, so they had a delay in order to apply for the match. Others took longer (like months) for boards, which US students don't have the luxury of. And worse yet, some had rotations dropped and had to delay graduating. Also, ECFMG certification and a PTAL (only for CA) is pretty important for residency applications, and they take time to get, so for some they end up delaying their ago because of that.

There are others, but I feel like these are the biggest ones. Medical training is probably fine, and a lot of my friends have made it through and are great docs.

Agree in general. I do have one friend who went to a school outside of the big 4, who actually matched, and completed on time, but he is not the norm. And quite frankly he didn't know what he was doing going to the Caribbean.

I have another friend who started medical school in 2009 and is still in it at a different Caribbean school. He has maxed out all his loans, and had to take Step 1, I believe 3 times to pass. He can't pass the preexam required for him to sit for step II so his school won't allow him to graduate. I don't think he will be able to get a residency, and am really worried about him as he is in his upper 40's. This is not something he will bounce back from. I know some DO horror stories, but they just pale compared to Caribbean.

 

[BorntobeDO?]

Hi all, currently a Medical student, but just wondering why the Caribbean option is so bad? I could've done the Caribbean, got into Ross and SGU but I spent 1 extra year but I made it into a Osteopathic school.
Is there really a problem getting residencies, even family/internal med/pediatrics...???
I mean I know some people that went to the Caribbean and still got residencies, like Psych, Internal med.

See my post above, and Hallowmann. The schools themselves are half the problem. Now granted, new DO schools aren't great, but they are still better than Caribbean. The horror stories from DO schools aren't nearly as bad as Caribbean right now. We almost never have people who somehow struggle to the end, but end up not getting a residency at all. This happens with way too much frequency in the Caribbean.

 

[Wjldenver]

The biggest problem I see is attrition. You see the success stories in residency. 25-60% (depending on the school) don't make it to graduation. Of those that do, residency placement rates are again anywhere from 55-85%. So that doesn't bode well. The ones that made it most likely would have made it in a DO or US MD school.

Other Issues:
-As a Carib graduate, you have more hoops to jump through just to get licensed as an IMG, even if you go to one of the only 5 schools whose degree is recognized by medical boards in all 50 states.
-You, generally speaking, have to apply to more residency programs (50-100% more) than US MDs or DOs even in the less competitive specialties you mentioned. I met a few SGU applicants on the trail. They had similar scores to me, but applied to way more programs to get fewer interviews.
-Cost. It's expensive on the islands. SGU's tuition is also more than almost all US med schools, and is practically double the tuition at my DO school. It's also expensive traveling around to rotation sites potentially in completely different states. You will probably travel for DO schools, but in most you could do a lot of your cores in one system or area.
-Time. I have yet to meet one person that didn't take 5 years after starting to get to residency. I have a lot of friends that went to the islands. Some started in Jan, so they had a delay in order to apply for the match. Others took longer (like months) for boards, which US students don't have the luxury of. And worse yet, some had rotations dropped and had to delay graduating. Also, ECFMG certification and a PTAL (only for CA) is pretty important for residency applications, and they take time to get, so for some they end up delaying their ago because of that.

There are others, but I feel like these are the biggest ones. Medical training is probably fine, and a lot of my friends have made it through and are great docs.

Excellent critique...


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[tux4]

Because of the attrition, these students shouldn't get federal funding. It is ridiculous that they admit so many knowing that a big portion will fail. They just eat up federal loans and leave many students in debt.


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[ill be a doc soon]

Like others have posted here, attrition is the biggest factor. Theres numbnuts who think if a carib school accepted them, that means they're ready! This is not the case, because these schools will accept someone with a 2.8 gpa and a 495 mcat. These numbers do not equal success in medical school, so you would be better served taking a year off and doing a postbacc, and prove it to yourself and adcoms that you are capable.

With that being said, I personally know a few recent SGU and Ross grads who were all successful. 2 in IM, 2 in FM, 1 in Pediatrics. However, I know these people and their work ethic is unbelieveable. That cannot be said about everyone.

Cue Goro's Caribbean rant

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Like others have posted here, attrition is the biggest factor. Theres numbnuts who think if a carib school accepted them, that means they're ready! This is not the case, because these schools will accept someone with a 2.8 gpa and a 495 mcat. These numbers do not equal success in medical school, so you would be better served taking a year off and doing a postbacc, and prove it to yourself and adcoms that you are capable.

With that being said, I personally know a few recent SGU and Ross grads who were all successful. 2 in IM, 2 in FM, 1 in Pediatrics. However, I know these people and their work ethic is unbelieveable. That cannot be said about everyone.

Cue Goro's Caribbean rant

This in many respects is the limiting factor. The people I know who match out of the Carib are usually not reflective of the majority of those who applied. One of the people I know only went there because he applied poorly to random MD schools and didn't really understand what DO programs were.
He's now in a relatively low tier program but back home, so I imagine he had some choice of location.

But I digress. There's no way to get around it. Not everyone should be a doctor and not everyone is cut out to be a doctor. Many people apply to the carib with stats that simply are not even remotely convincing of aptitude for even basic science, let alone for medical knowledge. Simply put, the road to becoming competitive for medical school should be at a minimal seen as a reflection on whether or not you're going to really be able to pass and succeed in medical school, not just a subjective standard due to competition.

 

[Goro]

Like others have posted here, attrition is the biggest factor. Theres numbnuts who think if a carib school accepted them, that means they're ready! This is not the case, because these schools will accept someone with a 2.8 gpa and a 495 mcat. These numbers do not equal success in medical school, so you would be better served taking a year off and doing a postbacc, and prove it to yourself and adcoms that you are capable.

With that being said, I personally know a few recent SGU and Ross grads who were all successful. 2 in IM, 2 in FM, 1 in Pediatrics. However, I know these people and their work ethic is unbelieveable. That cannot be said about everyone.

Cue Goro's Caribbean rant

I think that the posters in this thread have answered quite well. No need for my copypasta.

Food for thought...wander over into the Carib forum. It's quite depressing. Every other thread is "failed to match...what do I do now?" or "Failed out...what do I do now."

 

[license43]

In before lock.

wrong.

 

[zukunft195]

Caribbean med schools are actually a great option if you have awful, irredeemable stats and extremely wealthy parents.

 

[DetectiveAlonzo]

It's not a bad option. But it should never be your first choice.

 

[BorntobeDO?]

I was about to go to SGU, but i got into a DO program, so here i am. I want to do PMR or neurology, so I figured DO would be a better choice for me vs. Caribbean.

You were correct. Good choice.

 

[DetectiveAlonzo]

I was about to go to SGU, but i got into a DO program, so here i am. I want to do PMR or neurology, so I figured DO would be a better choice for me vs. Caribbean.

Good decision there. Best of luck to you.

 

[ToKingdomCome]

Bruh

 

[RotationsSoFar]

The students that used to go to the Caribbean are going to the new DO schools now.

I'm not even sure how Caribbean schools still fill up. You've gotta run out of premeds at some point.

 

[DetectiveAlonzo]

The students that used to go to the Caribbean are going to the new DO schools now.

I'm not even sure how Caribbean schools still fill up. You've gotta run out of premeds at some point.

I think this is why the AACOM got rid of the grade replacement strategy now. They want quality applicants now.

As a student who utilized the grade replacement, I am saddened by its removal as it gives people a second chance but something has to be done with the quality of students with all of these new schools popping up like McDonald's franchises.

 

[laxbrah20]

The students that used to go to the Caribbean are going to the new DO schools now.

I'm not even sure how Caribbean schools still fill up. You've gotta run out of premeds at some point.

The world will never run out of premeds!

 

[DetectiveAlonzo]

The students that used to go to the Caribbean are going to the new DO schools now.

I'm not even sure how Caribbean schools still fill up. You've gotta run out of premeds at some point.

Nah you'd be surprised. A lot of rich mommy and daddy types out there who send their children to the Island.

 

[IslandStyle808]

I was about to go to SGU, but i got into a DO program, so here i am. I want to do PMR or neurology, so I figured DO would be a better choice for me vs. Caribbean.

And PM&R is one of the few specialties where the DO bias is almost non-existant. You have a shot at all the top programs in the country!

 

[rckelly23]

I got into AUC 2 years ago, but decided to pursue an SMP instead. Put me back 2 years, but I didn't want to deal with the hassle of trying to match as a Caribbean grad.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

I think this is why the AACOM got rid of the grade replacement strategy now. They want quality applicants now.

As a student who utilized the grade replacement, I am saddened by its removal as it gives people a second chance but something has to be done with the quality of students with all of these new schools popping up like McDonald's franchises.

I'm not sure getting rid of grade replacement that helped predominately non-traditional applicants have a shot at medical school is a strategy for getting quality applicants as much as acknowledging that there are enough students who started college knowing they wanted to be doctors and played the gpa game.

Personally I would like to see MD and DO schools adopt what they do in Canada. Just look at the last 90 or 60 credits.

 

[DetectiveAlonzo]

I'm not sure getting rid of grade replacement that helped predominately non-traditional applicants have a shot at medical school is a strategy for getting quality applicants as much as acknowledging that there are enough students who started college knowing they wanted to be doctors and played the gpa game.

Personally I would like to see MD and DO schools adopt what they do in Canada. Just look at the last 90 or 60 credits.

That's true too. I appreciate your insight since it helped me see it from a different perspective. Cheers mate.

 

[DetectiveAlonzo]

FWIW....

When I had finished applying to DO programs last year, I decided to test out the Carib application process.

Sent out everything from my DO applications... I didn't even bother to change my DO application essay. It literally mentioned why I wanted to pursue osteopathic medicine.

After a few calls and texts from past Carib alumni egging me on to finish my application and how their perspective Caribbean program was God's gift to earth, I was invited for an interview literally within a week before the deadline for summer apps.

So... yah.

When they say anybody can get into the Caribbean... it sure is true.

Like i said though... it isn't a GREAT option... but the only option for some people.

Gotta do what you gotta do.

 

[Anicetus]

The world will never run out of premeds!

The numbers will drop once we cut physician reimbursement after a single payer system is set in place (assuming the next president is the polar opposite of Trump). That plus higher taxes for us should do the trick.

 

[laxbrah20]

The numbers will drop once we cut physician reimbursement after a single payer system is set in place (assuming the next president is the polar opposite of Trump). That plus higher taxes for us should do the trick.

That's the stuff they aren't supposed to know! If that happens there's no doubt that the number of premeds will decrease. The ROI won't seem as attractive anymore and will lead people down different paths.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

The numbers will drop once we cut physician reimbursement after a single payer system is set in place (assuming the next president is the polar opposite of Trump). That plus higher taxes for us should do the trick.

I have sincere doubts that anything will cut the number of applicants. People will still aspire to be doctors as culture places an enormous importance on them. Likewise most career options these days seem to be dwindling outside of finance, computers, and engineering. People in science have little option between going to medical school or being a PhD slave for nearly a decade before settling on an adjunct position.

 

[shadowlightfox]

Caribbean med schools are actually a great option if you have awful, irredeemable stats and extremely wealthy parents.

If your parents are extremely wealthy, doesn't that actually increase the chances of getting accepted into med schools in the country, though?

 

[zukunft195]

If your parents are extremely wealthy, doesn't that actually increase the chances of getting accepted into med schools in the country, though?

Not if your stats are a total trainwreck.

 

[Anicetus]

I have sincere doubts that anything will cut the number of applicants. People will still aspire to be doctors as culture places an enormous importance on them. Likewise most career options these days seem to be dwindling outside of finance, computers, and engineering. People in science have little option between going to medical school or being a PhD slave for nearly a decade before settling on an adjunct position.

By culture do you mean familial pressures? If that's the case it is because it's driven by the internationally known fact that physicians in America make wildly more money than any other country. If that's completely lopped away as the next desperate attempt to cut medical costs, the more aware families from all cultures will tell their kids to go for something that won't put them in tons of debt. For now a lot of those families today will still push kids to go to the Caribbean as a means to an end to be a "proud, rich doctor" that they can brag to their relatives about.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

By culture do you mean familial pressures? If that's the case it is because it's driven by the internationally known fact that physicians in America make wildly more money than any other country. If that's completely lopped away as the next desperate attempt to cut medical costs, the more aware families from all cultures will tell their kids to go for something that won't put them in tons of debt. For now a lot of those families today will still push kids to go to the Caribbean as a means to an end to be a "proud, rich doctor" that they can brag to their relatives about.

Or because being a doctor is a prestigious career.

Being entirely honest if they cut reimbursements but do so with cutting debt and tort reform, that's not a bad trade off. Most other countries don't have their doctors being 400k under by the time they become first year residents.

 

[BorntobeDO?]

Or because being a doctor is a prestigious career.

Being entirely honest if they cut reimbursements but do so with cutting debt and tort reform, that's not a bad trade off. Most other countries don't have their doctors being 400k under by the time they become first year residents.

Yep, countries with poor reembursment still get the best and brightest gunning for medicine. Prestige is something that is worth more than money to many people.

 

[firstaidforever]

Yep, countries with poor reembursment still get the best and brightest gunning for medicine. Prestige is something that is worth more than money to many people.

Not really.

-Dentistry is more competitive than medicine in England.
-And w/o giving my home country away (it's an Asian country), pharmacy is much more competitive than medicine.
-In the Philippines, the poor quality of medical students is actually becoming an issue in the national spotlight now.

Those are just a few examples where medicine is not rewarded as well as other fields.

 

[grapefruit17]

Caribbean medical school schools are a great option if you have money and you're not worried about graduating/matching.

Huge class sizes with a lot of potential for beautiful women dressed in beach attire, surrounded by beautiful sandy beaches and waterfalls.

Sure you may not make it all the way through and become successful, but until then, I'm sure it would be a fun ride

 

[ScottTenorman54]

-In the Philippines, the poor quality of medical students is actually becoming an issue in the national spotlight now.

Source? From what I understand the problem in the Philippines isn't that there aren't enough good applicants aspiring to go into medicine, but that there are way too many shady subpar for-profit schools that spread the applicant pool out too thin. Your other examples just name one career that's more competitive - that hardly means medicine isn't super competitive in those areas.

 

[firstaidforever]

Source? From what I understand the problem in the Philippines isn't that there aren't enough good applicants aspiring to go into medicine, but that there are way too many shady subpar for-profit schools that spread the applicant pool out too thin. Your other examples just name one career that's more competitive - that hardly means medicine isn't super competitive in those areas.

It's really hard to find published paper sources. It's just something that is always brought up when discussing education. It's same as people mentioning admissions to a top 20 vs top 200 undergrad program in america.

And medicine really isn't competitive. It's overwhelmingly field with average to slightly above average students. It has the same entrance score as medium tier engineering programs. The brightest with the high national exam scores go into high ranked Engineering/Computer Science and then pharmacy.

 

[NghtSky04]

I was about to go to SGU, but i got into a DO program, so here i am. I want to do PMR or neurology, so I figured DO would be a better choice for me vs. Caribbean.

You made an excellent choice to pursue a DO school if you want PM&R. The door is wide open for DOs in that specialty. Who knows, you might do a 180 and pursue something very competitive like ortho. That pathway is closed for 99% of Caribbean students, whereas it's still decent for a DO who performs well.

 

[wxman393]

If you go to St James, they guarantee that you will pass Step 1

Source: USMLE STEP 1 GUARANTEE

 

[shadowlightfox]

If you go to St James, they guarantee that you will pass Step 1

Source: USMLE STEP 1 GUARANTEE

It's not about passing that matters, though. It's about the fact that you're still an IMG regardless of how well you do in Step 1, especially if you want to pursue something higher than primary care, like surgery.

You can literally score at least 20 points above average compared to the rest of the people taking the test in a desired specialty and for the most part they still won't accept you because of being an IMG.

 

[wxman393]

It's not about passing that matters, though. It's about the fact that you're still an IMG regardless of how well you do in Step 1, especially if you want to pursue something higher than primary care, like surgery.

You can literally score at least 20 points above average compared to the rest of the people taking the test in a desired specialty and for the most part they still won't accept you because of being an IMG.

I was more surprised by the fact that there are now schools offering a "guarantee". This must be something new for the offshore programs and it could easily confuse pre-meds and draw them to a program that offers a less than stellar chance at matching.

 

[grapefruit17]

I was more surprised by the fact that there are now schools offering a "guarantee". This must be something new for the offshore programs and it could easily confuse pre-meds and draw them to a program that offers a less than stellar chance at matching.

It requires careful reading. The guarantee is meanlingess because they're only saying they offer a review course if you fail. And if you fail chances are you are already sol. And even with a review course I doubt your score would dramatically increase.

Some residencies that I applied to actually preferred imgs over dos. Probably easier as a do, but def some out there did prefer imgs.

But it's an odds game. Just making it to step 1 on time, the odds are against you. Then passing step 1 with a competive score, then matching. I saw that attrition rates can approach like 40 percent. And I'm sure most of those 40 percent thought they wouldn't be in that predicament.

All in all, it's just a hard road. Esp adjusting to living on an island where you're closed off. Medical school is tough, making it harder on yourself is always a bad idea. I do respect Carib grads from the big 4 though. They made it through a difficult process.

 

[wxman393]

It requires careful reading. The guarantee is meanlingess because they're only saying they offer a review course if you fail. And if you fail chances are you are already sol. And even with a review course I doubt your score would dramatically increase.

Some residencies that I applied to actually preferred imgs over dos. Probably easier as a do, but def some out there did prefer imgs.

But it's an odds game. Just making it to step 1 on time, the odds are against you. Then passing step 1 with a competive score, then matching. I saw that attrition rates can approach like 40 percent. And I'm sure most of those 40 percent thought they wouldn't be in that predicament.

All in all, it's just a hard road. Esp adjusting to living on an island where you're closed off. Medical school is tough, making it harder on yourself is always a bad idea. I do respect Carib grads from the big 4 though. They made it through a difficult process.

Exactly. However, how many people do you think read the fine print? What I am getting at is the questionable advertising that some of these schools engage in. This school is not one of the Big 4 and I can just see how this "guarantee" could lure in unsuspecting students that are out of options.

I have nothing personally against people going to the Caribbean for medical school. I have multiple family members that successfully navigated and are now attendings in "competitive" specialties. However, this was back in the late 70s and early 80s and they've been practicing for decades now. Their IMG status didn't hold them back. But, that was 30 years ago. I only hope people do all of their research, particularly if they choose to go to a school that isn't part of the Big 4.

I applied to SGU, got accepted, but chose to stay in the US for medical school.

Edit: Spelling

 

[738177]

Exactly. However, how many people do you think read the fine print? What I am getting at is the questionable advertising that some of these schools engage in. This school is not one of the Big 4 and I can just see how this "guarantee" could lure in unsuspecting students that are out of options.

Edit: Spelling

I gotta say, that's one clever move by the school administration. I'm willing to bet that some gullible premeds don't even know that you can't retake the USMLE if you get a low score or the consequences of failing a board exam being an IMG.
St. James isn't accredited in 10+ states. Not even NY which is like the IMG haven. I guess they need these kind of "guarantees" to survive.

 

[SurgDoc95]

The numbers will drop once we cut physician reimbursement after a single payer system is set in place (assuming the next president is the polar opposite of Trump). That plus higher taxes for us should do the trick.

If they put a single payer system into place say bye to any quality of health care. People want to talk about the disparities in the current health care system? Just wait until Americans turn to foreign countries to get procedures done because there's a 6 month wait list. For those who advocate for it, hope you're ready for what follows.

 

[IslandStyle808]

If they put a single payer system into place say bye to any quality of health care. People want to talk about the disparities in the current health care system? Just wait until Americans turn to foreign countries to get procedures done because there's a 6 month wait list. For those who advocate for it, hope you're ready for what follows.

People don't realize this would take a really long time before this will happen. Law makers have been trying for over a hundred years to do this and were shot down multiple times. However, elements of a single payer still start creeping into the system (ex. medicare and medicaid) and I acknowledge this. Our country is large and so diversified in opinion I don't see that happening that quickly.

 

[Lexdiamondz]

If they put a single payer system into place say bye to any quality of health care. People want to talk about the disparities in the current health care system? Just wait until Americans turn to foreign countries to get procedures done because there's a 6 month wait list. For those who advocate for it, hope you're ready for what follows.

And yet every other country with socialised healthcare has better outcomes...