DO salary information?

[Kuba]

My only question is where did you learn how to debate? You argue like a child. The line, " ask my cousin," holds no water. For example, I am good in bed, ask your sister, I ****ed her in the ass last night. Now where did that get us? No where, you don't believe me, and your sister still can't walk straight. If you are going to sit here all day throwing out family members who don't exist then why don't you just sit on the sidelines and let the adults handle this. I don't care if your cousin is in the porn industry and makes 5 billion a year. You show me a cold hard fact that says that DO's make less than MDs. No examples of one or two doctors that "you know." If that is your idea of research then I would hate to see you doing anything that actually helped anyone. The same goes mecute or meugly, whatever your name is. These arguments always end the same, you saying my brother's uncle knew a guy who had sex with some girl who told him her back alley doctor made 7 million a year. The truth is: if DOs made any less than MDs there would be a division in the department of labor. Do you see one? But, wait, here I will bring it down to your level: my uncle said that we all make the same because the U.S. Department of Labor does not divide between D.O. and M.D. There you go, I hope you understand it now.

this calls for that family guy scene where the huge HI-C pitcher starts walking backwards slowly after he bursts through the wall..

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Members don't see this ad.

 

[djnels01]

this calls for that family guy scene where the huge HI-C pitcher starts walking backwards slowly after he bursts through the wall..

"Oh No, Oh No, Oh No..."

"OH YEA!"

What a great show!

 

[Jamers]

Whoa, Jamers. 2easy's quote was a joke, I'm sure of it.

The world may never know....

 

[DrBuffett]

MD's from harvard, yale, and johns hopkins get reimbursed 100% of whatever they charge.

All other MDs get a 15% reduction from medicare, PPO's, and HMO's.

MD's from foreign medical schools get a 35% reduction.

MD's from caribbean schools get a 50% reduction.

DO's get a whopping 75% reduction of their fees because they are the most substandard of all. You would actually get paid higher by Medicare for performing a knee replacement if you were a licensed manicurist and pedicurist.

If you guys don't believe me, ask my cousin. He graduated with an MD degree from harvard, but he wasn't happy with his 5 million a year income so he went back to medical school again to get an MD degree from Yale.

Now he makes 10 million a year!

A DO can probably make that if he works in the next, oh say, 1,650 years!!!!

HAHAHA. Thank you, 2easy. We definitely needed some levity in here!

Seriously, though. You make a good point. That is why I plan on applying to the new joint MD/MD program offered by Harvard and Yale. Have you heard about it? It's condensed: you receive both degrees in just four months of correspondence study. Unfortunately, the stipend is only $300,000 per month, so it will rough going for a while!

 

[JadedSurgeon]

About the before mentioned "DO bias"

No offense against any DOs or DO students

As a MD student, I already have a bias against DO schools simply because they have lower acceptance standards than regular MD schools (ie in my juvinielle logic it seems that DOs are people who counldn't make it as an MD and therefore their overall average competence must be lower compared to MDs. I also had friends whose GPAs started dropping once they started taking O chem and other higher science classes and decided to apply to DO schools only because their grades weren't good enough to get into MD medical school. Another friend wanted to be a DO because she wanted to use herbs and "naturalistic" approaches instead of drugs while practicing medicine.

Also, it annoys me to no end that DOs have their own exclusive residency matching program that they won't allow MDs to join but they want unrestricted access to our match, using the DO match as a safety catch.

Again, I mean no offense, just being bluntly honest.

 

[natsayshi]

Where did I miss the "herbs" handout in the Pharmacology syllabus?

 

[Jack Daniel]

Also, it annoys me to no end that DOs have their own exclusive residency matching program that they won't allow MDs to join but they want unrestricted access to our match, using the DO match as a safety catch.

I don't see why you should care. Given your admitted bias, even if the DO residencies allowed MD students, I doubt you would apply to any--so why are you fussing?

 

[xTinaBna]

About the before mentioned "DO bias"

No offense against any DOs or DO students

As a MD student, I already have a bias against DO schools simply because they have lower acceptance standards than regular MD schools (ie in my juvinielle logic it seems that DOs are people who counldn't make it as an MD and therefore their overall average competence must be lower compared to MDs. I also had friends whose GPAs started dropping once they started taking O chem and other higher science classes and decided to apply to DO schools only because their grades weren't good enough to get into MD medical school. Another friend wanted to be a DO because she wanted to use herbs and "naturalistic" approaches instead of drugs while practicing medicine.

Also, it annoys me to no end that DOs have their own exclusive residency matching program that they won't allow MDs to join but they want unrestricted access to our match, using the DO match as a safety catch.

Again, I mean no offense, just being bluntly honest.

Although no one will dispute the fact that osteopathic schools are slightly more forgiving when it comes to g.p.a.'s and mcats, i think it is unfair to group the majority of osteopathic students into this category. There are those who sincerely believe in OMM, and those who simply want to go to be a physician regardless of the letters after their names, and those who have only known osteopathic physicians there whole lives and choose to become one, and those who chose to go to medical school close to their families, etc.
Also, in terms of the friend wanting to be a DO to use herbs and naturalistic approaches...i believe that is the focus of naturopathic medicine, not osteopathic medicine.

i have to agree that if DO's can enter MD residencies, MD's should be able to enter DO residencies. MD's and DO's work equally side by side to provide the best care possible. In the end, we all should be more concerned with our patients than our degrees.

 

[Mixmaster]

JadedSurgeon,
I see where you come from. BUT, what about all those D.O. students with above average USMLE scores? Did they all of a sudden become more 'competent' ?

 

[Jack Daniel]

......As a MD student, I already have a bias against DO schools simply because they have lower acceptance standards than regular MD schools .....

This type of reasoning irritates me. You know, a lot of professions have lower acceptance standards than regular MD schools. Most teaching programs have significantly lower acceptance standards than regular MD schools. You biased against them, too?

 

[toothless rufus]

This type of reasoning irritates me. You know, a lot of professions have lower acceptance standards than regular MD schools. Most teaching programs have significantly lower acceptance standards than regular MD schools. You biased against them, too?

I'm guessing "no" as those are other professions. I think his problem is that MD and DO are both the same profession: and one route has lower standards of admission.

 

[lilzelda]

Also, it annoys me to no end that DOs have their own exclusive residency matching program that they won't allow MDs to join but they want unrestricted access to our match, using the DO match as a safety catch.

Again, I mean no offense, just being bluntly honest.

I don't think MD's should be allowed to do the DO match because they don't know OMM and thats really what makes a DO different from an MD. For a DO residency isn't part of it focusing on OMM, I'm not sure but thats how one of the doctors made it seem to me.

And didn't u post in the allo part that you don't like it when social workers wear white coats b/c it puts them on the same levels as doctors. I think u need to learn a little humility, sorry. But I can see your point about the GPA.

 

[Taus]

riiight...what you do in college determines how good of a physician you will be.....forget about those pesky little things like boards and providing a quality standard of care for patients....I mean its not like the relevant end results matter for anything....

 

[wook]

About the before mentioned "DO bias"

As a MD student, I already have a bias against DO schools simply because they have lower acceptance standards than regular MD schools (ie in my juvinielle logic it seems that DOs are people who counldn't make it as an MD and therefore their overall average competence must be lower compared to MDs.

Again, I mean no offense, just being bluntly honest.

Many people in my class, including myself, could have gone to an MD school and instead chose to go the DO route. I would be wary of "categorizing" people by their choices in training. Your bias will not serve you well in the real world as there are both good and bad physicians that are MD and DO. "Judge" each physician on an individual basis.


Wook

 

[DrBMX]

Many people in my class, including myself, could have gone to an MD school and instead chose to go the DO route. I would be wary of "categorizing" people by their choices in training. Your bias will not serve you well in the real world as there are both good and bad physicians that are MD and DO. "Judge" each physician on an individual basis.


Wook

How do you know if these people are telling you the truth? If you're in a DO school, you can say whatever you want, right? Do you really admit the fact that you didn't get into MD schools? For me, I used to get into DO schools and NO MD schools, I admitted that and re-applied. I had friends at MSU DO and they admitted that most the students there are MD rejects.
I truly believe there is a small number of people choose DO route because they like it, but most people didn't get into MD schools.
Regardless what you say, the MD program director knows. He know that you're rejected from MD schools. Those really believe in DO route, they'll pick DO residency.

 

[wook]

How do you know if these people are telling you the truth? If you're in a DO school, you can say whatever you want, right? Do you really admit the fact that you didn't get into MD schools? For me, I used to get into DO schools and NO MD schools, I admitted that and re-applied. I had friends at MSU DO and they admitted that most the students there are MD rejects.
I truly believe there is a small number of people choose DO route because they like it, but most people didn't get into MD schools.
Regardless what you say, the MD program director knows. He know that you're rejected from MD schools. Those really believe in DO route, they'll pick DO residency.

As stated previously, I chose to go DO and my experience is to the contrary. The hiring Program Director at my residency evaluated each of the candidates on an individual basis based on their credentials, not their degree. I would reiterate that your bias will not serve you well in the real world, and your bias will likely disappear once you get out into clinical practice.

Wook

 

[TaliesinDO]

You're either a quality physician/surgeon or you're not, to which your training will profess. That's it.

 

[DrBMX]

As stated previously, I chose to go DO and my experience is to the contrary. The hiring Program Director at my residency evaluated each of the candidates on an individual basis based on their credentials, not their degree. I would reiterate that your bias will not serve you well in the real world, and your bias will likely disappear once you get out into clinical practice.

Wook

Wook,
This is my last post regard this kind of debate. If you are evaluated based on your credentials and you're a DO, you're an exception. If everyone is evaluated based on credentials, they can go to any medical schools to get into residency. There is NO such things like if you're a DO or IMG, you'll apply as an independent applicant and use separate forms for ERAS. Real wolrd is BIAS whether you want to admit or not. Please do not use your case, an exception, to make false statements for DO students here.

to the OP: DO and MD make the same because they're physicians but whether or not a DO can get into that residency or a practice group is another story.

 

[wook]

Wook,
This is my last post regard this kind of debate. If you are evaluated based on your credentials and you're a DO, you're an exception. If everyone is evaluated based on credentials, they can go to any medical schools to get into residency. There is NO such things like if you're a DO or IMG, you'll apply as an independent applicant and use separate forms for ERAS. Real wolrd is BIAS whether you want to admit or not. Please do not use your case, an exception, to make false statements for DO students here.

to the OP: DO and MD make the same because they're physicians but whether or not a DO can get into that residency or a practice group is another story.

I'm assuming that you are a pre-med or med student who has not participated in the match yet, since your information is incorrect about ERAS. You are spreading misinformation from what appear to be unreliable sources by your comments. However, your statement about DO and MD making the same salary is correct, since both are physicians.


Wook

 

[drusso]

People, especially pre-meds, vastly over-estimate the impact of degree status on reputation. Basically, your reputation as a physician is earned and repayed every day based upon your interaction with other physicians, colleagues, patients and their families.

Just be a good doctor and the rest will take care of itself.

 

[It'sElectric]

Wook,
This is my last post regard this kind of debate. If you are evaluated based on your credentials and you're a DO, you're an exception. If everyone is evaluated based on credentials, they can go to any medical schools to get into residency. There is NO such things like if you're a DO or IMG, you'll apply as an independent applicant and use separate forms for ERAS. Real wolrd is BIAS whether you want to admit or not. Please do not use your case, an exception, to make false statements for DO students here.

to the OP: DO and MD make the same because they're physicians but whether or not a DO can get into that residency or a practice group is another story.

This post alone shows just how ill informed you are on the subject. It's unfortunate that now matter how many times you try to correct people by opening their eyes a little, there's always another person waiting in the wings that is as equally ignorant as the previous person.

 

[DrQuinn]

Actually, DrBMX is probably speaking more of the truth than you think.

If you, as premeds, current DO students, or residents, don't think there is a bias against DOs out there, you are incorrect.

I can tell you, that, yes, DOs and IMGs have to apply as "indepedent applicants" in the ERAS/NRMP, but there isn't a separate form for it. Its more of a statistical analysis sort of thing....

But there are plenty of programs that will not even bother looking at a DO's application on ERAS, just because there are DOs.

It happened to me. And it continues to happen.

That doesn't mean you can't get what you want. There are plenty of programs out there that do accept DOs to their residencies.

But to make a statmenet that there is no DO bias is flatly incorrect.

Q

 

[Doc2007]

Has anyone compiled a list of program that has bias against DOs?

Actually, DrBMX is probably speaking more of the truth than you think.

If you, as premeds, current DO students, or residents, don't think there is a bias against DOs out there, you are incorrect.

I can tell you, that, yes, DOs and IMGs have to apply as "indepedent applicants" in the ERAS/NRMP, but there isn't a separate form for it. Its more of a statistical analysis sort of thing....

But there are plenty of programs that will not even bother looking at a DO's application on ERAS, just because there are DOs.

It happened to me. And it continues to happen.

That doesn't mean you can't get what you want. There are plenty of programs out there that do accept DOs to their residencies.

But to make a statmenet that there is no DO bias is flatly incorrect.

Q

 

[VirusZapper]

I work with a lady at the National Institutes of Health (NIH) vaccine research center who is doing clinical trials on HIV vaccines. She did her post grad work at Johns Hopkins and is a DO. Bottom line -- you can do anything you want as a DO, it just depends on how hard you work. Thats it.

 

[It'sElectric]

But to make a statmenet that there is no DO bias is flatly incorrect.

Q

Whoever said this? Such a hard fast statement would be ridiculous to make. The point is that DOs are NOT second class citizens like some misinformed pre-meds would love for you to believe.

 

[joels999]

My wife is a DO currently in ACGME fellowship out of CA state, and I dont think she would want me to say where or what fellowship because it is easy to find her.

But she had a horrible time finding work in the Los Angeles area.

So just becuase CA has 2 DO schools does not mean the "old school" MD's who rememeber or voted to stop DO's from getting licensed still have a strong bias against DO's.
Also remember since CA has only approx 3000 DO's licensed, most people In CA have not even heard of a DO or what they do.

 

[Dr JPH]

My wife is a DO currently in ACGME fellowship out of CA state, and I dont think she would want me to say where or what fellowship because it is easy to find her.

But she had a horrible time finding work in the Los Angeles area.

So just becuase CA has 2 DO schools does not mean the "old school" MD's who rememeber or voted to stop DO's from getting licensed still have a strong bias against DO's.
Also remember since CA has only approx 3000 DO's licensed, most people In CA have not even heard of a DO or what they do.

How could she be applying for jobs if she is still in training?

The docs who "still remember" or would have had the ability to vote on the DO issues would be at least 70 years old. The leaders of the movement would be in their upper 80s & 90s, if still alive.

I would be interested in hearing more about your wifes training and the supposed difficulties she has had. It might be helpful to know these things so that others can avoid the same missteps and pitfalls.

 

[medhacker]

Has anyone compiled a list of program that has bias against DOs?

It would be nice to build a list of possible offenders. For some places, though, such a list may not work as their biases may change from time to time if and when their PDs are changed.

 

[gtleeee]

How could she be applying for jobs if she is still in training?

The docs who "still remember" or would have had the ability to vote on the DO issues would be at least 70 years old. The leaders of the movement would be in their upper 80s & 90s, if still alive.

I would be interested in hearing more about your wifes training and the supposed difficulties she has had. It might be helpful to know these things so that others can avoid the same missteps and pitfalls.

One of the few things I have seen Hazelton post that I agree with 100%. It would be rare indeed
to find a physician of either degree (M.D. or D.O.), still practicing in this state who had been around (in practice) during those events of the early 60's. When I was a med student there were plenty, but that was just after speech had replaced sign language.

 

[RockfordWF]

Hi,

Thanks for your replies. I believe that you are right - on a micro level (procedure to procedure) DOs and MDs get paid the same.

But what about on a macro level - comparing overall salaries of DOs and MDs in the same specialty?

The reason I ask is that I was looking to talk to a DO at the large, research university-based medical center where I work, but I couldn't find any. Even though it is affiliated with two MD-granting schools, I figured that there would be at least one DO on the staff of the hospital, especially in IM or peds.

That lead me to wonder if the nature of the positions that are held by DOs and MDs in the same specialty might affect their relative salaries (i.e. MDs more likely to be housestaff at large, urban research-based hospitals).

For those of you who responded, how did you find this information?

Thanks very much!

There can be DO's found at large, research university-based medical centers, such as Johns Hopkins, UT-Southwestern, etc. These DO's make the same salary as the MD's they work with because they applied for the job of physician, which they recieved.

It's kind of like someone with a BA and a BS in education applying for a job as a 2nd grade teacher. There isn't going to be a different salary offered because you took a few arts classes in college.

If you asking if there are some MD physicians in a certain specialty that are paid more than DO's in the same specialty because of where they work, this is true. However since DO's work at large urban centers and MD's work a podunk hospitals it works both ways, so who cares?

 

[Oasis105112]

specialty choice is more important than the degree.

DO salary = MD salary

specialty is the real determinate.

 

[DocBR]

Wook,
This is my last post regard this kind of debate. If you are evaluated based on your credentials and you're a DO, you're an exception. If everyone is evaluated based on credentials, they can go to any medical schools to get into residency. There is NO such things like if you're a DO or IMG, you'll apply as an independent applicant and use separate forms for ERAS. Real wolrd is BIAS whether you want to admit or not. Please do not use your case, an exception, to make false statements for DO students here.

to the OP: DO and MD make the same because they're physicians but whether or not a DO can get into that residency or a practice group is another story.

My fiancé works as an assistant to the strategic planning and development sector of a huge hospital conglomerate in Arizona. The hospital group started out as a private practice physicians group and simply began taking over and developing hospitals. Anyway, she asked the physician recruiter (who has been there for ages) about the "hiring stigma" and he said "there are just too many patients to go around for us to care if you are a DO or an MD - qualified is qualified"

A cursory look at their physician list yields multiple DOs in extremely competitive fields like rad/onc, surgery, derm, interventional cardiology, vascular surgery, orthopedic surgery, etc.

Now, if anyone would like to spout out that Arizona is unusually DO friendly, you are wrong. We have had 1 DO school up until this year, which has had to fight fiercely to secure residency spots that the University of Arizona did not want to give up. The physician work force in Az is 97.6% MD, 2.4% DO.

Clearly, being evaluated based on credentials alone is not the exception. I am not saying it is the rule, but it is certainly not the exception.