DO salary information?

[DrBuffett]

I'm in a postbacc program now and my wife is an MD/PhD student. I am considering DO school. I have seen a lot of information on the median salaries of MDs in different specialties, but none for DOs.

Does anyone know where to find it? Do the physician salary listings include DOs?

I, of course, am choosing medicine because, after working in financial management, have decided that a career in medicine is the easiest way to quick cash...

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[24IdaFire]

MD and DO get paid the same.

 

[siinew]

I'm in a postbacc program now and my wife is an MD/PhD student. I am considering DO school. I have seen a lot of information on the median salaries of MDs in different specialties, but none for DOs.

Does anyone know where to find it? Do the physician salary listings include DOs?

I, of course, am choosing medicine because, after working in financial management, have decided that a career in medicine is the easiest way to quick cash...

Same diff. Physician = Physician, regardless of MD or DO. Any position for a doctor that you see a salary for can (and will) be filled by whatever person has the best qualifications for that job, and DO vs. MD is highly unlikely to factor into that.

 

[Taus]

exactly...billing codes do not differentiate...same job=same pay....though doing OMM can bring in some added "procedural" $$ to a primary care practice

 

[DrBuffett]

Hi,

Thanks for your replies. I believe that you are right - on a micro level (procedure to procedure) DOs and MDs get paid the same.

But what about on a macro level - comparing overall salaries of DOs and MDs in the same specialty?

The reason I ask is that I was looking to talk to a DO at the large, research university-based medical center where I work, but I couldn't find any. Even though it is affiliated with two MD-granting schools, I figured that there would be at least one DO on the staff of the hospital, especially in IM or peds.

That lead me to wonder if the nature of the positions that are held by DOs and MDs in the same specialty might affect their relative salaries (i.e. MDs more likely to be housestaff at large, urban research-based hospitals).

For those of you who responded, how did you find this information?

Thanks very much!

 

[It'sElectric]

Hi,

Thanks for your replies. I believe that you are right - on a micro level (procedure to procedure) DOs and MDs get paid the same.

But what about on a macro level - comparing overall salaries of DOs and MDs in the same specialty?

The reason I ask is that I was looking to talk to a DO at the large, research university-based medical center where I work, but I couldn't find any. Even though it is affiliated with two MD-granting schools, I figured that there would be at least one DO on the staff of the hospital, especially in IM or peds.

That lead me to wonder if the nature of the positions that are held by DOs and MDs in the same specialty might affect their relative salaries (i.e. MDs more likely to be housestaff at large, urban research-based hospitals).

For those of you who responded, how did you find this information?

Thanks very much!

The fact of the matter is you'll likely never be able to find such specific salary information that is broken down to such a level. Are you really that concerned about salary, or are you trying to ask a different question? As a physician you will make a salary that's likely in the top 1-5% of the U.S. population (DO or MD).

 

[WestcoastMedicine]

Its doesn't make a difference. Its like someone being hired for a job in marketing, it doesn't really matter if you have a BA in Marketing or a BA in Business Marketing, hiring a person for a design study, it doesn't matter if their BA is in Graphic Arts or Graphic Design, its semantics. If you are a dentist does a DMD get paid different than a DDM? I think not.

You are hiring someone who has a valid medical license, what they have done to fulfill the requirements to be granted that license does not matter, unless you take into account advanced/dual degrees or dual board certifications.

 

[wook]

DO and MD paid the same. Each specialty will have a different average income. The degree makes no difference on salary that I am aware of.

Do NOT go into medicine if you are doing it for money. Easier and MORE money made in business or consulting. I'm losing alot of money by doing this job, my income will never reach what it was while doing software consulting with the specialty I am pursuing. Still, I want to do it and am glad to be doing it.


Wook

 

[n0chi]

yea man, DO is definitely not an easy way to quick cash...

 

[group_theory]

One thing to keep in mind - if you're in academia, esp a big university hospital, your overall salary is LOWER than your private practice counterpart.

So if you compare a private practice GI doctor (a DO) versus a clinical professor of medicine and GI at Big Name University medical Center ... chances are the private practice doc will make more (there are some exceptions but the general trend is there)

Payment is the same ... if you do a central line, you'll get paid for a central line ... there's no modifier for "done by MD" or "done by DO" ... there might be a modifier if a midlevel does something but in terms of payment, there is no difference between DO/MD. A level 4 primary care visit (with proper documentation) will be paid as a level 4, whether it was the DO seeing the patient or an MD. How physicians are compensated is something that I highly encourage you and other SDNers to read and learn - it's not your typical employer-employee situation (even for hospitalists) and for private practice or group practice or even clinician-researcher - how someone is compensated is quite complex. But one thing is for certain ... doing the same job will be paid the same whether one is a MD or DO



According to a 2003 survey by the Medical Group Management Association:

Academic primary care physician - $131,926
Private practice primary care physician - $153,231

Academic specialist - $175,000
Private practice specialist - $274,639

Source: Medical Economics Sep. 5, 2003;80:55.

 

[(nicedream)]

I was looking to talk to a DO at the large, research university-based medical center where I work, but I couldn't find any. Even though it is affiliated with two MD-granting schools, I figured that there would be at least one DO on the staff of the hospital, especially in IM or peds.

That lead me to wonder if the nature of the positions that are held by DOs and MDs in the same specialty might affect their relative salaries (i.e. MDs more likely to be housestaff at large, urban research-based hospitals).

As group theory touched on, academia means LESS money, not more. In fact, the larger the institution and the more urban, the less the salary likely is. If you want to make money, do something procedural and move to the middle of nowhere where you're the only one doing it. Are MDs more likley to be housestaff at large, urban research-based hospitals? Yes. The salaries there also suck, so you might even find lower avg salaries for MDs compared to DOs (if not for the fact that a higher % of DOs are in primary care).

 

[siinew]

yea man, DO is definitely not an easy way to quick cash...

I think he was probably being sarcastic with that remark, at least that's how I read it.

 

[Hexanol]

this was posted on a different thread but i actually found it somewhat useful and at the very least interesting.

http://www.allied-physicians.com/salary_surveys/physician-salaries.htm

 

[BengaliDocIsl]

in general, would a physician make more money working in a private practice setting or working at a hospital, is hospital work salary based? thanx.

 

[group_theory]

in general, would a physician make more money working in a private practice setting or working at a hospital, is hospital work salary based? thanx.

The answer is very complex simply because there are numerous variations of how things are set up - the joke amongst hospital administrators is that the hospital is the land of a thousand contracts - each one just a little different

For physicians in general

you can work solo in a private office. Think of yourself as a self-employed self-run business. You hire your staff ... you see your patients ... and you do the billings (either from patients, insurances, or both). Your salary is basically what's left over after overhead and employee salaries/benefits

group practice in private practice ... think of it as a partnership in a lawfirm ... revenue sharing (how the revenue is split up amongst partners varies) - shared call schedule, etc.

Group practice in hospital ... think of it as independant contractors allowed to use the hospital as their office space. So they may be based out of a hospital but still independant ... so the salary comes not from the hospital but from the billing that the group generates. Hospitals benefit since you draw in patients to the hospitals and you do procedures in the hospitals ... all billable expenses for the hospital. Sometimes this results in two seperate bills that the patient receives ... a hospital bill and a doctor's bill. A lot of ER groups are like this.

Salaried Employee - may be hospitalists or some variation thereof. The hospital is the employer and the physician is the employee with a fixed set income for the year. It doesn't matter if you take care of 100 patients or 20 patients, income is fixed. But there may be "production bonuses" ... if you can generate income for the hospital, they may pay extra on top of your base salary.

Pure Academia tenured - really dependant on the institution and its rule ... but the hospital/university may guarantee a certain fixed income and the rest have to come from grants that are part of your research. May pay extra to teach (or may not). Clinical faculty will also be required to do clinical services ... whether that is part of the "fixed income" or whether you can supplement on top of the fixed income is dependant on the contract and the rules of the institution

Of course, none of this is set in concrete and there are variations of it (hospitalists are not employees but group private practice hospital based). Don't forget the military and VA. There are thousands of physicians groups/businesses and each one is unique and different in how they set up, how they are compensated, and who takes on the expenses/overhead

 

[DragonWell]

Thanks for the info. Very interesting.

 

[DrBuffett]

I think he was probably being sarcastic with that remark, at least that's how I read it.

Yes, yes. I was definitely being sarcastic on that one, hence the laughing smiley face at the end. I think that medicine, DO or MD or DC or whatever, is one of the hardest career paths that anyone can take.

Thanks to eveyone for your replies. I'm glad that I brought this up, especially since it seems that $$$ is such a taboo subject for doctors. I come from a business background, so I am curious to see what sorts of strategies are employed by DOs in private practice. I have not seen too many group practices out there. Mostly single DOs or DOs paired with LMTs and other alternative providers.

Are there many successful group practices with both DOs and MDs?

 

[It'sElectric]

Are there many successful group practices with both DOs and MDs?

Yes. I've shadowed a couple and spoken with others. Also, this might be a better question to ask in a residency forum, since they're a bit closer to the post-residency aspect of it all.

 

[jimmmmyi]

Hi,

Thanks for your replies. I believe that you are right - on a micro level (procedure to procedure) DOs and MDs get paid the same.

But what about on a macro level - comparing overall salaries of DOs and MDs in the same specialty?

The reason I ask is that I was looking to talk to a DO at the large, research university-based medical center where I work, but I couldn't find any. Even though it is affiliated with two MD-granting schools, I figured that there would be at least one DO on the staff of the hospital, especially in IM or peds.

That lead me to wonder if the nature of the positions that are held by DOs and MDs in the same specialty might affect their relative salaries (i.e. MDs more likely to be housestaff at large, urban research-based hospitals).

For those of you who responded, how did you find this information?

Thanks very much!

I have exactly the same question. There are a few DO's (attending, teaching, residents) at UCSF-Fresno. While UCSF is a major research institution...this branch of the institution is in a very rural area compared to San Francisco, where the main campus is located. But doing a search for the UCSF campus actually in San Francisco, I unfortunately had no luck in finding any DO's. Anyone knows why?

 

[It'sElectric]

I have exactly the same question. There are a few DO's (attending, teaching, residents) at UCSF-Fresno. While UCSF is a major research institution...this branch of the institution is in a very rural area compared to San Francisco, where the main campus is located. But doing a search for the UCSF campus actually in San Francisco, I unfortunately had no luck in finding any DO's. Anyone knows why?

No idea why that is, but providing one school in one city with no DOs shouldn't necessarily indicate that DOs don't work in urban settings. Are you dead set on UCSF, or why exactly are you concerned about that particular institution?

 

[jimmmmyi]

No idea why that is, but providing one school in one city with no DOs shouldn't necessarily indicate that DOs don't work in urban settings. Are you dead set on UCSF, or why exactly are you concerned about that particular institution?

I'm not dead set on UCSF. It's just that I do clinical research there and since I'm already in the area, I tried to do a search (online and word of mouth) for DO's at UCSF for some shadowing opportunities. And that's when I had trouble finding some and started wondering about DO's in urban settings. You're definitely right, it could just be UCSF, because I randomly did an online search at John Hopkins and they did have a couple DO attendings.

 

[It'sElectric]

I'm not dead set on UCSF. It's just that I do clinical research there and since I'm already in the area, I tried to do a search (online and word of mouth) for DO's at UCSF for some shadowing opportunities. And that's when I had trouble finding some and started wondering about DO's in urban settings. You're definitely right, it could just be UCSF, because I randomly did an online search at John Hopkins and they did have a couple DO attendings.

Cool, gotcha. Same idea along the lines of if you were looking for alumni from a particular med school that are attendings at some institution. You may not find one at that particular institution, but it doesn't necessarily say anything about the medical school.

I think too often people automatically use the "osteopath card" when they see some sort of discrepancy or were denied somewhere. Of course there are some instances of discrimination, but these are soooo few and far between these days, that it's hardly worth even mentioning, because it will not affect you.

 

[DrBuffett]

I think that some allopathic medical schools/centers have very "old school" approaches to HR and management decisions. I was looking around the NYP-Columbia website and found zero DOs on the staff. I am aware, from reading lots about Columbia's MD admission for my wife that they tend to be traditional (read: narrow-minded) in other ways, too.

I am willing to bet that there are some old, wrinkly MDs out there in high administrative positions at some institutions who believe that DOs are quacks.

But old MDs don't last forever...

 

[group_theory]

I think that some allopathic medical schools/centers have very "old school" approaches to HR and management decisions. I was looking around the NYP-Columbia website and found zero DOs on the staff. I am aware, from reading lots about Columbia's MD admission for my wife that they tend to be traditional (read: narrow-minded) in other ways, too.

I am willing to bet that there are some old, wrinkly MDs out there in high administrative positions at some institutions who believe that DOs are quacks.

But old MDs don't last forever...

A hospital HR department will typically have no say in what physicians are hired. Usually it is the department itself that will conduct the search. If you have a bunch of old-school surgeons in a department, chances are they will still think negatively towards DO.

As for UCSF (omitting Fresno except for one)

Medicine
Alyse Gabriel, D.O. - Clinical Instructor
Robbin Green-Yeh, D.O. - Assistant Clinical Professor
Massoud Mahmoudi, D.O.,Ph.D. - Assistant Clinical Professor
Larisa Nadukhovskaya, D.O. - Clinical Instructor
Silver Sisneros, D.O. - Assistant Clinical Professor
Michael Adam Tom, D.O. - Assistant Clinical Professor

Dermatology
Nicholas Diakon, D.O. - Assistant Clinical Professor
Sharon Gerardi, D.O. - Assistant Clinical Professor of Pediatric Dermatology (Fresno)

Family and Community Medicine
Gary Gray, D.O. - Assistant Clinical Professor
Steven Levenberg, D.O. - Assistant Clinical Professor
Jeannie Pflum, D.O. - Assistant Clinical Professor
Veronica Vuksich, D.O. - Assistant Clinical Professor

Pediatrics
Donald Fields, D.O. - Clinical Instructor
James Hopkins, D.O. - Assistant Clinical Professor

Psychiatry
Richard Land, D.O. - Assistant Clinical Professor
Laurie Richer, D.O. - Associate Clinical Professor
Doris Tan, D.O. - Assistant Clinical Professor

 

[Taus]

I think that some allopathic medical schools/centers have very "old school" approaches to HR and management decisions. I was looking around the NYP-Columbia website and found zero DOs on the staff. I am aware, from reading lots about Columbia's MD admission for my wife that they tend to be traditional (read: narrow-minded) in other ways, too.

I am willing to bet that there are some old, wrinkly MDs out there in high administrative positions at some institutions who believe that DOs are quacks.

But old MDs don't last forever...

it is what it is.....if you really want to be in a high-powered academic research setting then go to an MD school. It is possible from this route....however it is one of the differences b/w the two schools. We push patient care/clinical knowledge over research...many MD schools are the opposite.

 

[DrBuffett]

it is what it is.....if you really want to be in a high-powered academic research setting then go to an MD school. It is possible from this route....however it is one of the differences b/w the two schools. We push patient care/clinical knowledge over research...many MD schools are the opposite.

Why can't we have both: cutting-edge basic science research with respect for the patient and his/her right to choose from a variety of treatment options, some more "proven" than others?

That would promote research in these "alternative" areas, like the Rosenthal Center for Alternative Medicine at Columbia is doing: www.rosenthal.hs.columbia.edu/

 

[WildcatDMD]

Why can't we have both: cutting-edge basic science research with respect for the patient and his/her right to choose from a variety of treatment options, some more "proven" than others?

That would promote research in these "alternative" areas, like the Rosenthal Center for Alternative Medicine at Columbia is doing: www.rosenthal.hs.columbia.edu/

What?

 

[Taus]

thats not quite what I meant.....I meant that many of our mentors are primary care docs and what is emphasized to us is how to be a good generalist physician....we also do not learn to push alternative medicine and things of that nature (except for learning OMM which we don't consider alternative)....any good doc MD or DO gives their patients the proven options......also we do learn what is new and cutting edge....but don't focus on it nearly as much as patient care and clinical knowledge....you're looking into this a little too deep.....everyone ends up doing what they want w/ their medical education and not everyone agrees w/ a schools mission...

 

[Kuba]

exactly...billing codes do not differentiate...same job=same pay....though doing OMM can bring in some added "procedural" $$ to a primary care practice

I thought OMM is not covered by insurance frequently

 

[Taus]

I thought OMM is not covered by insurance frequently

I'll admit that I'm not the most knowledgeable on the subject.....but around here in Philly and in NY where I'm from....I've heard from several docs that most major insurance providers do cover it....and pay a decent amount....you just have to know the proper billing codes....take that for whatever its worth...

 

[mecute]

While it is true that DO and MD use the same billing codes and thus get paid the same by insurance companies, what everyone is overlooking here is that DOs for the most part have a hard time breaking into an MD-only private practice groups due to stigma and bias against DOs by practicing MDs. In many areas of the country there are a handful of large groups (MD only) that dominate the majority of business ie. exclusive hospital contracts, that means the DO will often work in the less busy, smaller practice which = less money than the MD working in the dominant group practice in the same field in the same area. While this scenario is unfair and I disagree with this kind of discrimination, it is a simple fact of life that people identify and associate with others that are most similar to themselves. In this case, MDs are going to be more open to other MDs, and it just so happens that MDs hold most of the power in the medical field.

I'm not trying to start a flame war here, i'm just presenting another side of the story that has not been told on this board as far as I can tell. I am applying both MD and DO so don't label me a DO basher. I wont discuss the evidence I am basing my statements on...naysayers will just lash out and say it is anecdotal anyways so I won't even bother. If you approach what I have stated with an open mind, it should be common sense.

 

[Shinken]

naysayers will just lash out and say it is anecdotal anyways so I won't even bother. If you approach what I have stated with an open mind, it should be common sense.

Am I the only one that laughed out loud at this statement? He sounds like my OMM instructor.

 

[Taus]

While it is true that DO and MD use the same billing codes and thus get paid the same by insurance companies, what everyone is overlooking here is that DOs for the most part have a hard time breaking into an MD-only private practice groups due to stigma and bias against DOs by practicing MDs. In many areas of the country there are a handful of large groups (MD only) that dominate the majority of business ie. exclusive hospital contracts, that means the DO will often work in the less busy, smaller practice which = less money than the MD working in the dominant group practice in the same field in the same area. While this scenario is unfair and I disagree with this kind of discrimination, it is a simple fact of life that people identify and associate with others that are most similar to themselves. In this case, MDs are going to be more open to other MDs, and it just so happens that MDs hold most of the power in the medical field.

I'm not trying to start a flame war here, i'm just presenting another side of the story that has not been told on this board as far as I can tell. I am applying both MD and DO so don't label me a DO basher. I wont discuss the evidence I am basing my statements on...naysayers will just lash out and say it is anecdotal anyways so I won't even bother. If you approach what I have stated with an open mind, it should be common sense.

find me a doctor without too many patients seeking their services...then we'll talk....

 

[It'sElectric]

While it is true that DO and MD use the same billing codes and thus get paid the same by insurance companies, what everyone is overlooking here is that DOs for the most part have a hard time breaking into an MD-only private practice groups due to stigma and bias against DOs by practicing MDs. In many areas of the country there are a handful of large groups (MD only) that dominate the majority of business ie. exclusive hospital contracts, that means the DO will often work in the less busy, smaller practice which = less money than the MD working in the dominant group practice in the same field in the same area. While this scenario is unfair and I disagree with this kind of discrimination, it is a simple fact of life that people identify and associate with others that are most similar to themselves. In this case, MDs are going to be more open to other MDs, and it just so happens that MDs hold most of the power in the medical field.

I'm not trying to start a flame war here, i'm just presenting another side of the story that has not been told on this board as far as I can tell. I am applying both MD and DO so don't label me a DO basher. I wont discuss the evidence I am basing my statements on...naysayers will just lash out and say it is anecdotal anyways so I won't even bother. If you approach what I have stated with an open mind, it should be common sense.

I'm definitely not going to lash out at you and say it's anecdotal, because your argument did NOT even provide anecdotal evidence. You're simply going on a hunch. I, on the other hand have spoken with DOs and MDs first-hand that work side-by-side with each other. For them, it is literally a NON-issue. Every group practice is looking to hire individuals that are board-certified and well trained, and thus the least likely to incur a lawsuit or get into trouble. And yes, my evidence is merely anecdotal, but that's far better than the lack of evidence that you provided.

I can assure you that your comments didn't make me angry. They made me laugh, because you clearly don't understand the situation and have very little experience with what you're talking about. Finally, even IF anything you said was even slightly true (which it is not), there will NEVER be a shortage of patients to go around. I have yet to come into contact with a physician (DO/MD) that believes they just don't have enough pts. and have way too much free time. That sort of reasoning is absurd and illogical.

 

[Brooklyndo2.1]

to the OP:
i think one of the reasons you wont find md vs do salary info is that both are considered the same in the eyes of the federal govt, so when they do stats, its "US physicians" or something along those lines.
Same thing for MD's who graduate from foreign med schools...they are on the same salary scale as all physicians in their specialty.
If any of this was mentioned , sorry to reiterate, i just skimmed the thread

 

[Ifellinapothole]

DO's get paid the same, but generally are made fun of for having to have studied Cranial.

 

[Shinken]

I can assure you that your comments didn't make me angry. They made me laugh, because you clearly don't understand the situation and have very little experience with what you're talking about. Finally, even IF anything you said was even slightly true (which it is not), there will NEVER be a shortage of patients to go around. I have yet to come into contact with a physician (DO/MD) that believes they just don't have enough pts. and have way too much free time. That sort of reasoning is absurd and illogical.

Yes, the world of SDN and the real world are very different. Lately, I come to SDN mainly for the comic relief.

When I was a pre-med I thought SDN was the greatest thing since band-aids, as a 1st year student I thought SDN was somewhat lame. Now I know it's lame except for the 5% of posts that are actually useful (mainly in the specialties section) but the comic relief is awesome. Pre-allo is my favorite.

 

[beastmaster]

I was looking around the NYP-Columbia website and found zero DOs on the staff.

I know that NYP has DO residents in FP, PM&R, Pathology, and possibly Anesth, but not IM or surgery (I think both departments are strongly anti-DO).

 

[mecute]

I'm definitely not going to lash out at you and say it's anecdotal, because your argument did NOT even provide anecdotal evidence. You're simply going on a hunch. I, on the other hand have spoken with DOs and MDs first-hand that work side-by-side with each other. For them, it is literally a NON-issue. Every group practice is looking to hire individuals that are board-certified and well trained, and thus the least likely to incur a lawsuit or get into trouble. And yes, my evidence is merely anecdotal, but that's far better than the lack of evidence that you provided.

I can assure you that your comments didn't make me angry. They made me laugh, because you clearly don't understand the situation and have very little experience with what you're talking about. Finally, even IF anything you said was even slightly true (which it is not), there will NEVER be a shortage of patients to go around. I have yet to come into contact with a physician (DO/MD) that believes they just don't have enough pts. and have way too much free time. That sort of reasoning is absurd and illogical.

If you read my post carefully I said I would not provide any evidence because it would just be dismissed as anecdotal. Let me ask you a question, do you think the stigma against DOs when trying to pursue an MD residency just disappear after residency is done? It's only logical that the same bias against DOs obtaining an MD residency applies when obtaining a private practice job. I also didn't say that the DO is not going to have "enough patients," But you better believe he's not doing as well as the MD in the large MD-only group practice in the same area that has the majority of the contracts and deals in place.

I have 3 family members who are MDs in private practice, one of which's group runs a residency program for a medical school. The Program director told me his group would never interview a DO, much less offer a job to one to join the group.

All 3 in private practice have exclusive hospital contracts with their private practice group, with monopoly coverage sometimes over 50% of a single state. If you think a private practice DO is getting the same volume of business than those MDs with those exclusive contracts, you're deluding yourself.

While you may have talked to some MDs and DOs who work side by side, that's already rare. Moreover, what are they supposed to say? "Yeah, my co-worker the DO, is ___________ but I have to put up with him because we work together." Something like over 90% of practicing physicians are MDs? Try talking to MDs in MD-only practices and ask what they think of DOs, then you'll get the overriding truth. I looked in the phone book to contact some DOs to shadow, and lo and behold out of the 4 in the phone book, 3 of them were working in the same small clinic whose name I didn't even recognize. I interviewed one of them and asked him about the stigma against DOs and he said it didn't bother him anymore as much as it used in his first few years practicing and now he just ignores it. Now there's a DO being honest.

Bias against DOs exists at all levels. A lot of people here say it is just a pre-med thing. Wrong. They find out how wrong it is when they try to obtain an MD residency. Then again when trying to find a good group to join. To think the bias disappears after residency is being in denial and a disservice to pre-DOs who may be reading this thread.

 

[usfvette]

I looked in the phone book to contact some DOs to shadow, and lo and behold out of the 4 in the phone book, 3 of them were working in the same small clinic whose name I didn't even recognize.

Funny, this is my first post, but I just opened up my phone book and saw dozens of DOs listed.

 

[It'sElectric]

I know that NYP has DO residents in FP, PM&R, Pathology, and possibly Anesth, but not IM or surgery (I think both departments are strongly anti-DO).

http://asp.cumc.columbia.edu/facdb/profile_list.asp?uni=dd227&DepAffil=Surgery

 

[It'sElectric]

If you read my post carefully I said I would not provide any evidence because it would just be dismissed as anecdotal. Let me ask you a question, do you think the stigma against DOs when trying to pursue an MD residency just disappear after residency is done? It's only logical that the same bias against DOs obtaining an MD residency applies when obtaining a private practice job. I also didn't say that the DO is not going to have "enough patients," But you better believe he's not doing as well as the MD in the large MD-only group practice in the same area that has the majority of the contracts and deals in place.

I have 3 family members who are MDs in private practice, one of which's group runs a residency program for a medical school. The Program director told me his group would never interview a DO, much less offer a job to one to join the group.

All 3 in private practice have exclusive hospital contracts with their private practice group, with monopoly coverage sometimes over 50% of a single state. If you think a private practice DO is getting the same volume of business than those MDs with those exclusive contracts, you're deluding yourself.

While you may have talked to some MDs and DOs who work side by side, that's already rare. Moreover, what are they supposed to say? "Yeah, my co-worker the DO, is ___________ but I have to put up with him because we work together." Something like over 90% of practicing physicians are MDs? Try talking to MDs in MD-only practices and ask what they think of DOs, then you'll get the overriding truth. I looked in the phone book to contact some DOs to shadow, and lo and behold out of the 4 in the phone book, 3 of them were working in the same small clinic whose name I didn't even recognize. I interviewed one of them and asked him about the stigma against DOs and he said it didn't bother him anymore as much as it used in his first few years practicing and now he just ignores it. Now there's a DO being honest.

Bias against DOs exists at all levels. A lot of people here say it is just a pre-med thing. Wrong. They find out how wrong it is when they try to obtain an MD residency. Then again when trying to find a good group to join. To think the bias disappears after residency is being in denial and a disservice to pre-DOs who may be reading this thread.

Wow.....I'm confused as to why you're applying MD and DO? If this is what you truly believe, then I would suggest staying as far away from DO as possible. I won't even waste a second of my time trying to convince you of anything contrary to what you so firmly already believe.

I just wanted to see if you could post the statistics that back up your opinion....you know, the evidence that others would just say is anecdotal. Thanks.

 

[Shinken]

All 3 in private practice have exclusive hospital contracts with their private practice group, with monopoly coverage sometimes over 50% of a single state. If you think a private practice DO is getting the same volume of business than those MDs with those exclusive contracts, you're deluding yourself.

3 physicians cover 50% of the state? They must be awfully busy.

 

[It'sElectric]

3 physicians cover 50% of the state? They must be awfully busy.

That was one of my favorite parts of the post.

 

[beastmaster]

http://asp.cumc.columbia.edu/facdb/profile_list.asp?uni=dd227&DepAffil=Surgery

There usually are some scattered faculty, I know.

I'm talking only about current residents in training, because this gives the most accurate view of how receptive the program director and established staff/residents view the incoming crop over the last few years. Clearly, if there's even 1 DO in every year of residency they are open to DOs, if even for PR reasons. But a sum of zero basically suggests "DOs-not-welcome," because very qualified ones definitely do apply every year.

 

[It'sElectric]

There usually are some scattered faculty, I know. Clearly, if there's even 1 DO in every year of residency they are open to DOs, if even for PR reasons. But a sum of zero basically suggests "DOs-not-welcome," because very qualified ones definitely do apply every year.

I would think having DO faculty on board would be a better indicator of receptiveness to DOs, just from the simple fact that it's FACULTY - just my opinion though.

What kind of PR would be gained by accepting a DO to a residency program?

I personally think it's a bit of a stretch to automatically assume that the reason there isn't a DO in class of residents is simply because he/she is a DO. There are a vast number of assumptions you have to make before you get to that point.

 

[(nicedream)]

If you read my post carefully I said I would not provide any evidence because it would just be dismissed as anecdotal. Let me ask you a question, do you think the stigma against DOs when trying to pursue an MD residency just disappear after residency is done? It's only logical that the same bias against DOs obtaining an MD residency applies when obtaining a private practice job. I also didn't say that the DO is not going to have "enough patients," But you better believe he's not doing as well as the MD in the large MD-only group practice in the same area that has the majority of the contracts and deals in place.

I have 3 family members who are MDs in private practice, one of which's group runs a residency program for a medical school. The Program director told me his group would never interview a DO, much less offer a job to one to join the group.

All 3 in private practice have exclusive hospital contracts with their private practice group, with monopoly coverage sometimes over 50% of a single state. If you think a private practice DO is getting the same volume of business than those MDs with those exclusive contracts, you're deluding yourself.

While you may have talked to some MDs and DOs who work side by side, that's already rare. Moreover, what are they supposed to say? "Yeah, my co-worker the DO, is ___________ but I have to put up with him because we work together." Something like over 90% of practicing physicians are MDs? Try talking to MDs in MD-only practices and ask what they think of DOs, then you'll get the overriding truth. I looked in the phone book to contact some DOs to shadow, and lo and behold out of the 4 in the phone book, 3 of them were working in the same small clinic whose name I didn't even recognize. I interviewed one of them and asked him about the stigma against DOs and he said it didn't bother him anymore as much as it used in his first few years practicing and now he just ignores it. Now there's a DO being honest.

Bias against DOs exists at all levels. A lot of people here say it is just a pre-med thing. Wrong. They find out how wrong it is when they try to obtain an MD residency. Then again when trying to find a good group to join. To think the bias disappears after residency is being in denial and a disservice to pre-DOs who may be reading this thread.

Your family members are ignorant. Who would want to work with tools like that anyway? Tell them to grow up and stop using the letters after their name to subsitute for small penis'.

 

[Kuba]

If you read my post carefully I said I would not provide any evidence because it would just be dismissed as anecdotal. Let me ask you a question, do you think the stigma against DOs when trying to pursue an MD residency just disappear after residency is done? It's only logical that the same bias against DOs obtaining an MD residency applies when obtaining a private practice job. I also didn't say that the DO is not going to have "enough patients," But you better believe he's not doing as well as the MD in the large MD-only group practice in the same area that has the majority of the contracts and deals in place.

I have 3 family members who are MDs in private practice, one of which's group runs a residency program for a medical school. The Program director told me his group would never interview a DO, much less offer a job to one to join the group.

All 3 in private practice have exclusive hospital contracts with their private practice group, with monopoly coverage sometimes over 50% of a single state. If you think a private practice DO is getting the same volume of business than those MDs with those exclusive contracts, you're deluding yourself.

While you may have talked to some MDs and DOs who work side by side, that's already rare. Moreover, what are they supposed to say? "Yeah, my co-worker the DO, is ___________ but I have to put up with him because we work together." Something like over 90% of practicing physicians are MDs? Try talking to MDs in MD-only practices and ask what they think of DOs, then you'll get the overriding truth. I looked in the phone book to contact some DOs to shadow, and lo and behold out of the 4 in the phone book, 3 of them were working in the same small clinic whose name I didn't even recognize. I interviewed one of them and asked him about the stigma against DOs and he said it didn't bother him anymore as much as it used in his first few years practicing and now he just ignores it. Now there's a DO being honest.

Bias against DOs exists at all levels. A lot of people here say it is just a pre-med thing. Wrong. They find out how wrong it is when they try to obtain an MD residency. Then again when trying to find a good group to join. To think the bias disappears after residency is being in denial and a disservice to pre-DOs who may be reading this thread.

I work in an level 1 trauma center/teaching hospital ER that has about 75% MDs 25% DOs. There is no difference between them and no animosity, poor treatment, or stigma. My N=1 study proves that ERs across the country have no stigma toward DOs.

 

[mecute]

3 physicians cover 50% of the state? They must be awfully busy.

Again, you didn't read carefully.

"I have 3 family members who are MDs in private practice, one of which's group runs a residency program for a medical school. The Program director told me his group would never interview a DO, much less offer a job to one to join the group."

That implies that they are not in the same group. Let me spell it out anyway, they are in 3 different specialties, 3 different states, and since you're not knowledgeable enough to be in the know, often times private practice groups cover multiple hospitals in different cities, hence the over 50% reference.

 

[mecute]

Wow.....I'm confused as to why you're applying MD and DO? If this is what you truly believe, then I would suggest staying as far away from DO as possible. I won't even waste a second of my time trying to convince you of anything contrary to what you so firmly already believe.

I just wanted to see if you could post the statistics that back up your opinion....you know, the evidence that others would just say is anecdotal. Thanks.

I'm applying both MD and DO to stay in the same geographical area. I know the downsides and stigma that comes with being a DO but i'm ok with that if I choose to attend a DO school over an MD school. Just because you don't like or agree with the reality of what is prevalent in private practice doesn't mean it's not true. Sure, there are some hospitals where DOs and MDs work together, but i'm willing to bet such a place where 75% are MD and 25% are DO is in a state with at least one DO school. How many DO schools are there, 22? There are many more states without DO schools than there are states where there are. You can believe what you want to believe, but you shouldn't point such a rosy picture just to make yourself feel better about your own situation and mislead a pre-DO who doesn't know any better.