Do Minorites have admission advantages?

[medicine1]

I found an interesting article by Dr. Bowman:
http://www.unmc.edu/Community/ruralmeded/distribution_and_MCAT.htm

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[Denise00]

sure, but then, how much time and bonus leeway should we grant irish americans, who were greatly mistreated early in our nation's history? what about italian americans? what about the chinese, who built the transcontinental railroad but reaped none of the benefits? there's a HUGE list of who owes who here, and i'm just curious why black americans are the only group who are treated like porcelain dolls who need a stepladder to stand as tall as anyone else.

For one thing the Irish Americans, Italian Americans, and Asian Americans did not deserve to be mistreated but they also came to America freely they were not kidnapped from their home country bought here and sold for one. Secondly with no disrespect intended at least the Chinese got paid something for building the railroad. I hardly compare redemption for their low wages compared to no wages, little if no schooling, hangings, lynches, whippings all for people who were forced into the country. I mean get real I would not leave my home country just to get treated just as bad in another one. The Irish and Italians have false hope that America would be better. And you know what it may not have started out so great but as soon as 2nd and 3rd generations of Irish and Italian came along the discrimination went away it was mostly the beginning generations that had to deal with the hard times, this is something I was taught in my freshman history class. After they were integrated they were considered white just like everyone else. The Chinese didn't have that luxury, because they looked different and sounded different just like African Americans and native Americans (who deserve the most help) and you can't just blend in with all of the other Caucasian population. How many Irish and Italian Americans do you see being mistreated now days.
If the worl was perfect special provisions and treatment would not be needed but it is.

 

[Denise00]

Let me first say that i know that race usually is a heated issue, but i can't help notice that some post thier race w/ thier Gpa and MCAT scores when commenting on the Medical School Admission process. I have seen so few Black Doctors that it makes me wonder if the applicant pool for Med School is scarce of minority applicants or are there other issues involved? Are there advantages for Minorites who apply to Med School in compared to thier Non-minority counterparts? Are they given 'extra points' for race? plz don't flame me this is an honest question

Not flaming but if you want to know the answere to this question go to the typical or almost any med school take a look around who is most represented blacks or writes or any other URM and whites or even women to men. That will answere your question. We can't get to much of the so called advantage if we are outnumbered drasticall or thefact that there aren't that many black even applying to med school in the first place so how are so above everyone else i don't know.

p.s. i am for doing a way AA but as one poster said 40 years is not enough give us time for the majority of are black population in a whole to catch up with solid foundation in are education, neiborhoods, income and lives before are support is gone.

 

[delchrys]

For one thing the Irish Americans, Italian Americans, and Asian Americans did not deserve to be mistreated but they also came to America freely they were not kidnapped from their home country bought here and sold for one. Secondly with no disrespect intended at least the Chinese got paid something for building the railroad. I hardly compare redemption for their low wages compared to no wages, little if no schooling, hangings, lynches, whippings all for people who were forced into the country. I mean get real I would not leave my home country just to get treated just as bad in another one. The Irish and Italians have false hope that America would be better. And you know what it may not have started out so great but as soon as 2nd and 3rd generations of Irish and Italian came along the discrimination went away it was mostly the beginning generations that had to deal with the hard times, this is something I was taught in my freshman history class. After they were integrated they were considered white just like everyone else. The Chinese didn't have that luxury, because they looked different and sounded different just like African Americans and native Americans (who deserve the most help) and you can't just blend in with all of the other Caucasian population. How many Irish and Italian Americans do you see being mistreated now days.
If the worl was perfect special provisions and treatment would not be needed but it is.

all i can say here are two things:

1) why resurrect a dead thread?
2) you don't know much about how the chinese were treated, do you?

 

[Denise00]

all i can say here are two things:

1) why resurrect a dead thread?
2) you don't know much about how the chinese were treated, do you?

I didn't really care about resurrecting a dead thread but what can I say I had to add my 2 cents (I’ve thought about law school), I am quick to jump into an argument feet first. This argument always gets to me.

I was maybe to quick with saying I wouldn't leave my home country for another bad one it depends on the circumstances. I do know the Chinese were treated terrible, didn't say or mean to imply they weren't.

I expressed my opinion because I wanted to, and don’t care too much if anyone reads it or not just needed to vent a little. Why I set my self up by even bothering read post on this particular topic I don't know. It's never ending and everyone is going to have their own opinions and beliefs regardless, I guess I’m a glutton for punishment, which I expect plenty of from my post, but that’s what free speech is for after all.

I state that those are just my opinions at least at that particular moment I get upset maybe a little out of line but I don't expect anyone to agree. But being African American I certainly don't want to come off as being a hypocritical jerk and sound discriminatory against other races that also suffered because I’m not.

 

[delchrys]

I didn't really care about resurrecting a dead thread but what can I say I had to add my 2 cents (I’ve thought about law school), I am quick to jump into an argument feet first. This argument always gets to me.

I was maybe to quick with saying I wouldn't leave my home country for another bad one it depends on the circumstances. I do know the Chinese were treated terrible, didn't say or mean to imply they weren't.

I expressed my opinion because I wanted to, and don’t care too much if anyone reads it or not just needed to vent a little. Why I set my self up by even bothering read post on this particular topic I don't know. It's never ending and everyone is going to have their own opinions and beliefs regardless, I guess I’m a glutton for punishment, which I expect plenty of from my post, but that’s what free speech is for after all.

I state that those are just my opinions at least at that particular moment I get upset maybe a little out of line but I don't expect anyone to agree. But being African American I certainly don't want to come off as being a hypocritical jerk and sound discriminatory against other races that also suffered because I’m not.

lol, no harm, no foul. we probably have a lot more in common that either of us might have thought.

my point about aa has been pretty basic but somehow complex to many people: whatever justifications and distinctions one can make to allow for special "help" for any particular group can ultimately be made for every single group imaginable, and for what purpose? treating race as if it is somehow a universal "crippler" that requires help AS A RULE is insanely racist. you should look into the "jack and jill" and other interesting tidbits about the black american uber-elite that has been in this country for a VERY long time--this would add some understanding to my reasons that i put out there why "blackness" should not equate to "disadvantaged" in people's minds, and ultimately lead to special artificial advantages. if people are forced to struggle against their handicaps, be they imposed by another group or genetic limitations (like no legs), then they learn to survive better than if you hold their hand and spoon feed them. affirmative action has helped many black people. it has also led to a culture-wide deficit referred to as "victimology"--a belief about blacks, held by blacks, that blacks are screwed without special help...i.e., blacks need special assistance just to compete on par with whites. it's a doubly-racist doublesnap--one the one hand it presumes that white people are at some inherent advantage, which is totally untrue if you have ever been to an economically-depressed white rural community where kids have no shoes and share a toothbrush...these kids grow up treated by social rules as if they are advantaged relative to a middle-class black kid (and middle class black kids are the norm, not the outliers, despite the social myth that most blacks are poor), and the second snap is the racist belief that blacks are somehow incapable of overcoming difficulties without help from the white society.

i'm not trying to be argumentative and i've been done caring what most SDNers think about me and my opinion on this topic; this is truly what i believe and i honestly believe that people who think AA is necessary and good for society are closing their eyes to innumerable truths for the sake of convenience and their own personal, racist agenda of furthering one race at the expense of another.

 

[trauma_junky]

Hispanics and Native Americans are classified as URMs as well

In 35 years hispanics will be the majority. Time to begin the rhetoric changes now!

 

[vigils]

In 35 years hispanics will be the majority. Time to begin the rhetoric changes now!

So many people miss the big picture with this topic. The effort to increase URM medical students is an effort to equilibrate the long standing disadvantages they have had in society, specifically in entering the medical field. The goal is to have the doctors in society reflect the people of the society. Its not about grades or MCAT scores, its about people and making right hundreds of years of oppression. Every one knows a grades are arbitrary. Thats why you see things like Harvard grads with their 4.0 grades and 24 MCAT scores. An individual is more complex then that, and if it were not so, there would be no real application to medical school, just a submission with your grades and MCAT scores that schools ranked and the highest got in.

In my experience, it has been mostly those complianing mediocre students on the fringe of having no chance of getting into medical school that complain about the URM advantage. But if they look closely, if you are white, you still have a higher probability of being accepted.

People should be more open minded and not so ethnocentric. What do you want, a giant herd of white, rich, aristocratic class of medical students?

 

[delchrys]

So many people miss the big picture with this topic. The effort to increase URM medical students is an effort to equilibrate the long standing disadvantages they have had in society, specifically in entering the medical field. The goal is to have the doctors in society reflect the people of the society. Its not about grades or MCAT scores, its about people and making right hundreds of years of oppression. Every one knows a grades are arbitrary. Thats why you see things like Harvard grads with their 4.0 grades and 24 MCAT scores. An individual is more complex then that, and if it were not so, there would be no real application to medical school, just a submission with your grades and MCAT scores that schools ranked and the highest got in.

In my experience, it has been mostly those complianing mediocre students on the fringe of having no chance of getting into medical school that complain about the URM advantage. But if they look closely, if you are white, you still have a higher probability of being accepted.

People should be more open minded and not so ethnocentric. What do you want, a giant herd of white, rich, aristocratic class of medical students?

isn't it "ethnocentric" by definition to seek to advance one race at the expense of another? and isn't that EXACTLY what supporters of AA seek to do? why does the act become immoral when the color of the beneficiary becomes white, yet it is a great boon to humanity when the beneficiary is black?

 

[OrthoFixation]

lol, no harm, no foul. we probably have a lot more in common that either of us might have thought.

my point about aa has been pretty basic but somehow complex to many people: whatever justifications and distinctions one can make to allow for special "help" for any particular group can ultimately be made for every single group imaginable, and for what purpose? treating race as if it is somehow a universal "crippler" that requires help AS A RULE is insanely racist. you should look into the "jack and jill" and other interesting tidbits about the black american uber-elite that has been in this country for a VERY long time--this would add some understanding to my reasons that i put out there why "blackness" should not equate to "disadvantaged" in people's minds, and ultimately lead to special artificial advantages. if people are forced to struggle against their handicaps, be they imposed by another group or genetic limitations (like no legs), then they learn to survive better than if you hold their hand and spoon feed them. affirmative action has helped many black people. it has also led to a culture-wide deficit referred to as "victimology"--a belief about blacks, held by blacks, that blacks are screwed without special help...i.e., blacks need special assistance just to compete on par with whites. it's a doubly-racist doublesnap--one the one hand it presumes that white people are at some inherent advantage, which is totally untrue if you have ever been to an economically-depressed white rural community where kids have no shoes and share a toothbrush...these kids grow up treated by social rules as if they are advantaged relative to a middle-class black kid (and middle class black kids are the norm, not the outliers, despite the social myth that most blacks are poor), and the second snap is the racist belief that blacks are somehow incapable of overcoming difficulties without help from the white society.

i'm not trying to be argumentative and i've been done caring what most SDNers think about me and my opinion on this topic; this is truly what i believe and i honestly believe that people who think AA is necessary and good for society are closing their eyes to innumerable truths for the sake of convenience and their own personal, racist agenda of furthering one race at the expense of another.

You've hit the nail on the head.

Racism is wrong. End AA by color!

 

[IN2bait]

I find it curious the AA MCAT scores and GPA are so low. 21 on the MCAT with 3.2...would ANY white pre-med even make the initial cut? I have to laugh.

I worked my ass of to get 30+ and a 3.75 GPA...is it fair for a lazy idiot who happens to be black to take my seat? Luckily, I graduate med school this year, so it isn't a problem for me--but it WILL and IS a major problem for others, and probably my kids, too.

It's a sad state of affairs when inferior candidates take the seats of superior candidates because of the color of their skin. scary...won't find me supporting this sham. It'll take a few lawsuits related to inferior care and errors, but--with any luck--admission to med school will again be based on merit and desert.

 

[delchrys]

In my experience, it has been mostly those complianing mediocre students on the fringe of having no chance of getting into medical school that complain about the URM advantage. But if they look closely, if you are white, you still have a higher probability of being accepted.

why do people, when arguing for AA, always point out that 'mediocre white students' are the ones complaining, and then often go another step and point out that that's just "tough luck" for those students? i mean, it's the same pro-AA folks who say that who are battling tooth and nail to get mediocre black students the spots in these schools, and the stats are clear: a mediocre black student will beat out a higher-scoring white student for those spots. you ask why whites have more spots, disproportionate to their representation in the population? answer: because once you've taken every possible black candidate who is even HALF decent, you have to choose to either take black people whose stats are so pathetic you would be guaranteed to be killing patients by admitting those students, or you take whites. in other words, scraping the bottom of the barrel just for the sake of diversity only takes you so far--at some point even the barrel gets empty and administrators are FORCED to look at qualified white people.

 

[delchrys]

People should be more open minded and not so ethnocentric. What do you want, a giant herd of white, rich, aristocratic class of medical students?

no, i'd MUCH rather see a giant herd of BLACK, rich, aristocratic class of medical students who graduate and then go practice in the wealthiest neighborhoods they can and buy big houses in the suburbs.

rich/poor is the true distinction that matters. black/white is a racist farce; when you assume black = poor/disadvantaged and white = rich/full of advantages you sell TONS of individuals in both groups totally short, and it is a wholly racist perspective.

 

[Whodathunkit]

I find it curious the AA MCAT scores and GPA are so low. 21 on the MCAT with 3.2...would ANY white pre-med even make the initial cut? I have to laugh.

I worked my ass of to get 30+ and a 3.75 GPA...is it fair for a lazy idiot who happens to be black to take my seat? Luckily, I graduate med school this year, so it isn't a problem for me--but it WILL and IS a major problem for others, and probably my kids, too.

It's a sad state of affairs when inferior candidates take the seats of superior candidates because of the color of their skin. scary...won't find me supporting this sham. It'll take a few lawsuits related to inferior care and errors, but--with any luck--admission to med school will again be based on merit and desert.

When you decide in your infinite altruism and good faith to set up your ortho practice in an underserved area of the US with minorities then maybe....maybe I'll begin to understand your argument.

Otherwise there will continue to be a discreptancy between care of minorities and whites. Which is only one of many reasons why medical admissions committees feel the need to increase appropriate minorities in medicine.

Just go to the Medical Ebonics page in the ER forum and you'll see the underlying racism in the medical community. Oh wait, we don't have racism anymore do we? That was a long time ago.

Some minorities may not be very educated but they are very OBSERVANT and INTUITIVE.

Hell...they even made it a sticky, they thought it was so funny...

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=85456

You cannot tell me that most of the people that they are making fun of aren't minorities and more than likely African American.

That being said, if you can tell me that the public elementary/middle/high school students in Bethesda, Maryland...and the elementary/middle/high schools in inner city Baltimore, Maryland have the same opportunties then I'll consider us all at least starting on equal ground. BTW, I know they don't. I've already compared notes with them.

And, show me some lawsuits that had the etiology being because of an incompetent minority doctor just getting passed through the system.

Greedy Malpractice Lawyer: I know your honor that he's been a great doctor who has proven his clinical competence. I know...he did pass USMLE 1,2, and 3 as well as his written and oral specialty boards. I know he has had a practice for some years now. But I present to you State's Evidence 1A: MCAT scores and college GPA.

Judge: Oh my word!! These are way below average for an average incoming 22 yr old in medical school. It's obvious he is at fault.

 

[bigfrank]

Die Thread, DIE!!!

 

[docjolly]

Die Thread, DIE!!!

You and I are kindred souls...Just when I saw that someone had added to this thread, I said outloud to myself, "Die thread, die" (I'm being completely honest about this ). Just as I clicked the thread, you state this??

 

[ice_23]

When you decide in your infinite altruism and good faith to set up your ortho practice in an underserved area of the US with minorities then maybe....maybe I'll begin to understand your argument.

Otherwise there will continue to be a discreptancy between care of minorities and whites. Which is only one of many reasons why medical admissions committees feel the need to increase appropriate minorities in medicine.

Just go to the Medical Ebonics page in the ER forum and you'll see the underlying racism in the medical community. Oh wait, we don't have racism anymore do we? That was a long time ago.

Some minorities may not be very educated but they are very OBSERVANT and INTUITIVE.

Hell...they even made it a sticky, they thought it was so funny...

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=85456

You cannot tell me that most of the people that they are making fun of aren't minorities and more than likely African American.

That being said, if you can tell me that the public elementary/middle/high school students in Bethesda, Maryland...and the elementary/middle/high schools in inner city Baltimore, Maryland have the same opportunties then I'll consider us all at least starting on equal ground. BTW, I know they don't. I've already compared notes with them.

And, show me some lawsuits that had the etiology being because of an incompetent minority doctor just getting passed through the system.

Greedy Malpractice Lawyer: I know your honor that he's been a great doctor who has proven his clinical competence. I know...he did pass USMLE 1,2, and 3 as well as his written and oral specialty boards. I know he has had a practice for some years now. But I present to you State's Evidence 1A: MCAT scores and college GPA.

Judge: Oh my word!! These are way below average for an average incoming 22 yr old in medical school. It's obvious he is at fault.

Ugh, I'm jumping in again, but I'm too argumentative to let go. Sue me. Or better yet, lock the thread!

If the reason to admit URM's is because they are more likely to serve in underserved areas, then why not make those URM's who get the AA "benefit" to sign contracts stating that they must serve in said communities or face some sort of financial penalty?

-Ice

 

[bigfrank]

You and I are kindred souls...Just when I saw that someone had added to this thread, I said outloud to myself, "Die thread, die" (I'm being completely honest about this ). Just as I clicked the thread, you state this??

We ARE kindred souls. Let's meet in Vegas and get married

 

[Whodathunkit]

Ugh, I'm jumping in again, but I'm too argumentative to let go. Sue me. Or better yet, lock the thread!

If the reason to admit URM's is because they are more likely to serve in underserved areas, then why not make those URM's who get the AA "benefit" to sign contracts stating that they must serve in said communities or face some sort of financial penalty?

-Ice

Ugh!!!

Because that is not the ONLY reason.

And if you want to impose penalties, why don't we impose them also on all of you pre-meds who discuss in your personal statement and interviews how you LOVE serving the underserved community and you LOVE patient care(brownie points that you think will get you into med school), yet once you start/finish residency never step foot in another soup kitchen and choose a field that minimizes your patient contact because "you're really not into that..."

 

[germ]

*remaining pics removed by DrMom due to user complaints and graphic nature*

 

[PHARMDhope2b]

First, I am an african american student.

This is solely my opinion and I am not trying to futher nor start an argument.
I believe that that student in poor cities or counties do have a disadvantage when it comes to their education prior to college. However, grades and gpa really have nothing to do with this disadvantage. If student A is in a poor school, with a weak curriculum, then this student, in my opinion, should get good grades if his classes. If student B is in a upper class area, then he/she should get good grades as well. The point is whereever, you may go to school, just do the best you can so that you will be competitive. I live in a poor county in Va. However, I was in the top 10% of my class and got into a great school out of state, therefore money has nothing to do with how ones grades are.
In college, everyone has equal chance to get good grades and have a good gpa. Lets stop blaming society and others for our problems and put the blame for our shortcomings on ourselves. If preprofessional students get the grades we need, do the extracurriculars, etc. then we should all be on a level playing field when it comes to admissions. So if I dont get into school, I just take it as being that someone better qualified got in.
Lets end this black vs. white vs. asian vs. american indian stuff. All it does is set us back as a country, decades!!!

so just my two cents.

 

[1Path]

In 35 years hispanics will be the majority. Time to begin the rhetoric changes now!

Yes they will but because the majority of the folks on admissins committees will STILL be white males, it won't make much of a difference!

 

[delchrys]

here's a question: when a person who is black promotes or otherwise aids another person who is black at work or in school, they're doing a "good" thing because they're "looking out for" their racial kin. when a person who is promotes a person who is white or otherwise aids them at work or school, they're "bad" because they're racist. why?

Germ can post three pictures of dead people who were killed because of racism that took place when color photography didn't even exist, as if that's supposed to provide a commentary on the CURRENT situation, when in fact all it does is inflame and draw attention from the true issue. i mean, do you seriously expect people to accept the following "logic"??? "black people were lynched decades ago, therefore it is right to allow black people with substandard scores and grades to take the spot of a white person with much better scores and grades."

i've had friends get jumped by a gang of black kids in a not-so-hot area of detroit...should i turn around and talk about how their ability to obtain an education was crippled by that act of racially-motivated violence?

reginald denny, a white truck driver, was dragged from his truck and beaten with a brick by black people who were nearby during the LA riots...should he turn around and decide that that is indicative of the widespread anti-white racism in america that is inexorably squeezing mediocre whites out of classroom slots to make room for less-than-mediocre black students solely on the basis of the color of their skin?

the black residents of the poorest, high-black populations in los angeles burned down and looted the very businesses that were part of their community. should we presume that it is this lawlessness that has led to the black socioeconomic conditions being what they are in the united states?

when it comes to your individual accomplishments and needs: I DON'T GIVE A RAT'S ASS WHAT HAPPENED TO YOUR GREAT GRANDFATHER, OR YOUR GRANDFATHER...HECK, EVEN YOUR FATHER--QUIT HIDING BEHIND EXCUSES, GET OFF YOUR ASS, AND ACHIEVE SOMETHING WITH WHAT GOD GAVE YOU AND STOP WHINING THAT WHAT HAPPENED TO YOUR ANCESTORS IS THE REASON YOU SUCK. i'm the first person with a college degree in my family, and the same is true for my girlfriend, and many of the other people i know. guess what, how often do you think they used that as a crutch? hint: the answer is the number of times you have used race as a crutch multiplied by zero. "fair" is compete, win or lose on your own merits. "unfair" is compete, win or lose on your merits in some formula that gives you bonus points because your ancestors went through unbelievably crazy crap, while giving me minus points because the unebelievably crazy crap my ancestors went through doesn't count for jack squat due to my white skin.

AA IS A JOKE, AND THOSE WHO SUPPORT IT ARE RACISTS.

 

[Whodathunkit]

here's a question: when a person who is black promotes or otherwise aids another person who is black at work or in school, they're doing a "good" thing because they're "looking out for" their racial kin. when a person who is promotes a person who is white or otherwise aids them at work or school, they're "bad" because they're racist. why?

Both do it. Everyone does it: promote or give someone a job because they know them or they are a friend. But if the person who is black or white aids another person against a different person SPECIFICALLY because of skin color, then they are WRONG. Talk to Pres Bush, you think he got by totally on his academic merits?

Example: Person A doesn't like Person B because they are Black/White and passes them over for promotion/job to give it to another person because they are of the same color....WRONG!

Germ can post three pictures of dead people who were killed because of racism that took place when color photography didn't even exist, as if that's supposed to provide a commentary on the CURRENT situation, when in fact all it does is inflame and draw attention from the true issue. i mean, do you seriously expect people to accept the following "logic"??? "black people were lynched decades ago, therefore it is right to allow black people with substandard scores and grades to take the spot of a white person with much better scores and grades."

Can you actually believe the concept that a culture that for generations has been oppressed and made to feel inferior and inadequate has ANY ramifications on future generations?

i've had friends get jumped by a gang of black kids in a not-so-hot area of detroit...should i turn around and talk about how their ability to obtain an education was crippled by that act of racially-motivated violence?

How about those Black kids have nothing else better to do with their time than jump people...I'm sure your friends weren't the first and not the last. How do you know it was racially motivated? Why were your friends in a "not-so-hot area of Detroit"?

reginald denny, a white truck driver, was dragged from his truck and beaten with a brick by black people who were nearby during the LA riots...should he turn around and decide that that is indicative of the widespread anti-white racism in america that is inexorably squeezing mediocre whites out of classroom slots to make room for less-than-mediocre black students solely on the basis of the color of their skin?

Act of violence...WRONG! Just as we shouldnt think all white Texans in Jasper want to drag Blacks down a dirt road attached to a chain. Doesn't do you any justice to generalize...and that's why Reginald Denny doesn't now and why not all Blacks have a distrust of whites. This is in spite of the fact that many of those same whites that were so supportive of the KKK and segregation still live today in our society. I'm sure some still feel that way. It's just not as PC to be so open about it.

the black residents of the poorest, high-black populations in los angeles burned down and looted the very businesses that were part of their community. should we presume that it is this lawlessness that has led to the black socioeconomic conditions being what they are in the united states?

If you think that the burning down of some corner liquor stores and pawn shops demolished the economic growth of minority areas of Los Angeles, than you did not see that area before the riots.

when it comes to your individual accomplishments and needs: I DON'T GIVE A RAT'S ASS WHAT HAPPENED TO YOUR GREAT GRANDFATHER, OR YOUR GRANDFATHER...HECK, EVEN YOUR FATHER--QUIT HIDING BEHIND EXCUSES, GET OFF YOUR ASS, AND ACHIEVE SOMETHING WITH WHAT GOD GAVE YOU AND STOP WHINING THAT WHAT HAPPENED TO YOUR ANCESTORS IS THE REASON YOU SUCK. i'm the first person with a college degree in my family, and the same is true for my girlfriend, and many of the other people i know. guess what, how often do you think they used that as a crutch? hint: the answer is the number of times you have used race as a crutch multiplied by zero. "fair" is compete, win or lose on your own merits. "unfair" is compete, win or lose on your merits in some formula that gives you bonus points because your ancestors went through unbelievably crazy crap, while giving me minus points because the unebelievably crazy crap my ancestors went through doesn't count for jack squat due to my white skin.

AA IS A JOKE, AND THOSE WHO SUPPORT IT ARE RACISTS.

You are very passionate about AA. And I seriously doubt anything in this thread, or even in my responses will change your opinion. Luckily, you are not on the Admissions Committees of any medical schools, and I tend to feel that their opinions matter more than yours.

So much anger, you should really channel it into something more productive than worrying about who got into medical school.

 

[delchrys]

Both do it. Everyone does it. Promotes someone because they know them or they are a friend. But if the person who is black or white aids another person against a different person SPECIFICALLY because of skin color, then they are WRONG.

Example: Person A doesn't like Person B because they are Black/White and passes them over for promotion/job to give it to another person because they are of the same color....WRONG!

sure, except that somehow it's become not only acceptable but actually is considered a FACT that black people need someone "looking out for their interests" in order to get a fair shake. it's still racism, and the irony of it is it's practiced by the same people who say they work to fight racism.

Can you actually believe the concept that a culture that for generations has been oppressed and made to feel inferior and inadequate has ANY ramifications on future generations?

sure, but there's a point at which it is crippling to that culture to be given special advantages, because that culture starts to believe that they need those advantages to get by, that they are entitled to those advantages, and that opposition to those advantages is evil and racist. this thread has served to demonstrate this, if nothing else.

How about those Black kids have nothing else better to do with their time than jump people...I'm sure your friends weren't the first and not the last. How do you know it was racially motivated? Why were your friends in not-so-hot area of Detroit?

so now you are making excuses for a group of 10-12 black youths assaulting two white guys walking to the 7-11? my friends were there because THAT'S WHERE WE LIVED. every subculture in this country has kids who have a lot of time on their hands. only one subculture has the staggering statistics of intraracial violence, life expectancy, and undereducation.

Act of violence...WRONG! Just as we shouldnt think all Texans in Jasper want to drag Blacks down a dirt road attached to a chain. Doesn't do you any justice to generalize...and that's why Reginald Denny doesn't now and why not all Blacks have a distrust of whites. This is despite the fact that many of those same whites that were so supportive of the KKK and segregation still live today in our society. I'm sure some still feel that way. It's just not as PC to be so open about it.

you must have missed the entire point of the ludicrous examples of potential generalizing that i was trying to make: generalizing is wrong. more to the point, when you say AA is necessary, it is YOU who are generalizing and trying to enforce those generalizations through the government's authority--"white people have more advantages than black people" and "black people start off way behind and can't catch up without help" are generalizations accepted as axiomatic principles by AA supporters.

 

[ice_23]

Ugh!!!

Because that is not the ONLY reason.

And if you want to impose penalties, why don't we impose them also on all of you pre-meds who discuss in your personal statement and interviews how you LOVE serving the underserved community and you LOVE patient care(brownie points that you think will get you into med school), yet once you start/finish residency never step foot in another soup kitchen and choose a field that minimizes your patient contact because "you're really not into that..."

But it seems to be a HUGE reason as to why people are for AA.

For those "premeds" that DO NOT have statistics comparable to whites and asians and claim that they love serving the underserved, etc, SHOULD have penalties imposed if they don't follow through REGARDLESS of race. Essentially, they are being admitted not because of merit but based on speculation (they will serve a specific group once out of medical school).

If serving the underserved is a major reason why we need to let in underqualified minorities, then make it official.

-Ice

P.S. And, just to put it all on the table, what are the other reasons why we should let in, at the margin, a less qualified URM over a more qualified ORM?

 

[1Path]

P.S. And, just to put it all on the table, what are the other reasons why we should let in, at the margin, a less qualified URM over a more qualified ORM?

Can someone please, please tell me what the "qualifying" academic record is for an african american? What about a latino? A white dude from rural Mississippi? How about a person from Mars??? I'm just trying to figure out exactly what "qualified" is because it seems that "qualified" is the academic record deemd so by the majority.

 

[Whodathunkit]

sure, except that somehow it's become not only acceptable but actually is considered a FACT that black people need someone "looking out for their interests" in order to get a fair shake. it's still racism, and the irony of it is it's practiced by the same people who say they work to fight racism.

I certainly don't feel that way...and I don't think its considered a FACT. And if all it took was one Black person to open the flood gates for great job opportunities...then job discrimination would be a thing of the past.

sure, but there's a point at which it is crippling to that culture to be given special advantages, because that culture starts to believe that they need those advantages to get by, that they are entitled to those advantages, and that opposition to those advantages is evil and racist. this thread has served to demonstrate this, if nothing else.

I don't think that every minority feels ENTITLED to AA advantages. Nor do I feel opposition is evil and racist, just that there is misunderstanding and misdirected hostility. I certainly hope that you don't look at every minority doctor and feel as they though they got in PURELY on the basis of their minority status. Good lord, Blacks and Hispanics make up a 2.4% and 3.3%, respectively, of doctors in the country. You'd think they were taking over!!!

so now you are making excuses for a group of 10-12 black youths assaulting two white guys walking to the 7-11? my friends were there because THAT'S WHERE WE LIVED. every subculture in this country has kids who have a lot of time on their hands. only one subculture has the staggering statistics of intraracial violence, life expectancy, and undereducation.

Wasn't trying to make excuses but knuckleheaded kids(black or white) live everywhere...and I was only asking because I tend to avoid areas that are considered unsafe...was just wondering if your friends used the same discretion.

you must have missed the entire point of the ludicrous examples of potential generalizing that i was trying to make: generalizing is wrong. more to the point, when you say AA is necessary, it is YOU who are generalizing and trying to enforce those generalizations through the government's authority--"white people have more advantages than black people" and "black people start off way behind and can't catch up without help" are generalizations accepted as axiomatic principles by AA supporters.

Sure its a generalization, but IN GENERAL....

1. Whites have a societal and economic advantage compared to many minorities.
2. Educational opportunities tend to be more available to those in more affluent neighborhoods.

BTW, am I less rigid in my support of AA when it comes to allowing minorities who come from more afluent neighborhoods with more available opportunities. Many supposed "minorities" in my class were actually from African/South American nations, whose families were hardly disadvantaged. Although some would readily disagree with me...whether you were an affluent Black or a disadvantaged Black...you're still Black. And unless you can say that racism no longer exists, that's the point.

 

[delchrys]

Can someone please, please tell me what the "qualifying" academic record is for an african american? What about a latino? A white dude from rural Mississippi? How about a person from Mars??? I'm just trying to figure out exactly what "qualified" is because it seems that "qualified" is the academic record deemd so by the majority.

yeah, it's what the people making the determination about who gets into a program decide. be careful, though--if you say that they are inherently racist because they tend to be white, realize that the exact same argument can be made for a black admissions committee member, though with even more weight since it is socially acceptable to talk about any given black student was "disadvantaged" and thus "needs some extra consideration," while a white man talking the same way about a white, male student would be called a racist instantly.

alternatively, it's whatever the minimum threshold of ability is such that graduates of the program don't go out and kill people more than happens and has happened historically. (i.e., you're qualified if you are, upon graduation, at least as good as the average physician in your specialty with the same number of years on the job.)

and, finally, it is a question of test scores and grades, along with other important facts about a candidate's background, specifically economic situation past and present, reason/motivation for going to med school ('cause my daddy is a doctor is NOT a good reason), motivation and interest in other subjects or hobbies and the degree of intensity to which these are pursued, psychological well-being, ability to relate and empathize, and proven ability to succeed at past endeavors. since most of these cannot realistically be sized up in an interview session or three, institutions rely on canned essays (LAME) and on scores. if scores "don't matter at all" as many will argue, then STOP USING THEM. since they clearly DO matter, then they should remain a major factor in admissions decisions. race of the applicant should be irrelevant in terms of whether their race increases or decreases their level of qualification. you are not better suited for med school because of blackness, whiteness, asianness, or hispanicness, nor should your lower grades be treated as higher grades simply because of your race. being poor, coming from an uneducated family, and growing up in an area where the educational system sucks are all factors that should be considered when looking at a student with crappy scores. the pro-AA argument, however, tries to claim that being black carries not only the problems of being poor, etc as listed about three lines above this line here (which is racist, since it again generalizes "all blacks" into a certain demographic...total fallacy), but that being black carries something ADDITIONAL that makes it harder to succeed independent of the problems associated with low income, low level of education in your immediate environment, and an uneducated family. it is this mysterious factor that i scoff at and openly claim DOES NOT EXIST. some people don't like black people. some black people don't like, and more black people don't TRUST white people. both belief sets are lame and unjust, but both are facts. however, it is far from "ALL" white or black people who have these ideas, and far less than the average are in academic institutions (which are historically uberliberal).

the idea that simply being black makes every black person have a harder time than their white counterpart of equal income and identical educational and economic environments is inane. that idea, logically extended, becomes clearly absurd in a few cases. for one, take the black multi-millionaire. where are his disadvantages? what, if he dresses in average clothes and goes to a music store the workers will follow him around like he might steal something, and dat hurts his wittle feewings? tough. guess what--that doesn't hurt his ability to succeed, unless his job description is "go into music stores and don't get followed." to think that blacks are the only victims of such bigotry is the textbook definition of having a massive chip on your shoulder. get it off, and wake the hell up--it happens to the best of us. another example is when you look at a rural white community where (as i've noted before) kids share a single toothbrush and don't have shoes, even in winter....and you would look at those kids and think that somehow they deserve to compete against black applicants when the black applicants are given 'bonus points' for their race? all things being equal, those white kids aren't getting in over the black kids, and either that's okay with you (racist), or it's not (admit AA is wrong).

if you want to better our society, start by addressing the economic disparity that exists between the upper and lower classes, not by exacerbating the racial "mutual distrust" that exsits in our nation.

 

[ice_23]

Can someone please, please tell me what the "qualifying" academic record is for an african american? What about a latino? A white dude from rural Mississippi? How about a person from Mars??? I'm just trying to figure out exactly what "qualified" is because it seems that "qualified" is the academic record deemd so by the majority.

Why is it that people should be let in with lower numbers anyway, especially what it is generalized to race? If numbers don't really matter, then how is it that URM's have such low ones compared to other races? Are they just not trying? Does every URM have so much more to offer than an ORM? Or is it because they don't have to get such numbers because they will be accepted anyway?

And what's to say that everyone else, ORM's and whites included, don't have something to offer; they just happen to have high numbers AS WELL? Why does the vietnamese or pakistani individual not have as much to offer experience-wise than the african or the latino?

-Ice

 

[delchrys]

I certainly hope that you don't look at every minority doctor and feel as they though they got in PURELY on the basis of their minority status. Good lord, Blacks and Hispanics make up a 2.4% and 3.3%, respectively, of doctors in the country. You'd think they were taking over!!!

BTW, am I less rigid in my support of AA when it comes to allowing minorities who come from more afluent neighborhoods with more available opportunities. Many supposed "minorities" in my class were actually from African/South American nations, whose families were hardly disadvantaged. Although some would readily disagree with me...whether you were an affluent Black or a disadvantaged Black...you're still Black. And unless you can say that racism no longer exists, that's the point.

two things:
1) my thoughts when i see a black doctor:
if he or she is old: damn, they're the bomb--they made it back when it was "get to the back of the bus" time. i could never have done that. MAJOR props to them, and they're bound to be damned good.
if he or she is a recent grad: either they did as well as or better than their white counterparts, or they didn't. i will never know. they could have been an AA hard luck case, or they could have had scores on par with the top white applicants (or higher). but i'll never know. and i will for sure be less likely to trust my child for a delicate procedure in the care of a person who may have been allowed in with crappier stats than the worst white student who got in, and who may have been given better evaluations by their attendings for their rotations for fear of being accused of discrimination after the fact. scores may not mean everything, but they sure as hell mean enough to determine a great deal of who gets into schools. how can any black person in medicine not HATE AA? it tears down your credibility and the pride you should have in your achievements by making every person who looks at you FAIRLY wonder whether you were med school material on a color blind scale or you were only med school material by virtue of being black in a society that relishes its AA. the place for blame for that doubt of a doctor's skill is rightly on AA, not the health care consumer who knows that black med students didn't have to have as good grades and scores as their white counterparts. think about it--would you rather fly on airline A, which requires all pilots to pass XYZ intense flying requirements, or airline B, which requires all non-black pilots to pass XYZ intense flying requirements but allows black pilots to fly when they've achieved a score 3/4 that of the minimum passing score for non-blacks? tell ya what, i'll be on the plane with the greatest damned pilots on earth, and if airline B's black pilots feel offended, i'll extend my middle finger in sympathy. you can't have it both ways--either you get extra help to get it and extra leniency on the requirements and thus accept rightfully-placed sketpicism as to your qualifications; or you don't get any extra bennies from being black and hold your head high in pride that your accomplishments are unblemished by any special crutches granted you by the admissions committee.

2) given what you said, would you be in favor of economic-based AA only, and abolition of race-based admissions?

 

[1Path]

Why is it that people should be let in with lower numbers anyway, especially what it is generalized to race? If numbers don't really matter, then how is it that URM's have such low ones compared to other races? Are they just not trying? Does every URM have so much more to offer than an ORM? Or is it because they don't have to get such numbers because they will be accepted anyway?

And what's to say that everyone else, ORM's and whites included, don't have something to offer; they just happen to have high numbers AS WELL? Why does the vietnamese or pakistani individual not have as much to offer experience-wise than the african or the latino?

-Ice

Is someone going to answer my original question, what GPA, MCAT, EC activity, and volunteer experiences makes a person more or less qualified than another applicant???


FYI, "I'll extend my middle finger in sympathy" to anyone who thinks I unqualified when I'm done with my MD/PhD progarm

 

[visualwealth]

Since you care so much about your doctor undergraduate stats you could look at his/her CV and if they graduated cum/magna cum /summa cum laude then you could pick them based on that lol

I think we are all dumber after reading your post..

two things:
1) my thoughts when i see a black doctor:
if he or she is old: damn, they're the bomb--they made it back when it was "get to the back of the bus" time. i could never have done that. MAJOR props to them, and they're bound to be damned good.
if he or she is a recent grad: either they did as well as or better than their white counterparts, or they didn't. i will never know. they could have been an AA hard luck case, or they could have had scores on par with the top white applicants (or higher). but i'll never know. and i will for sure be less likely to trust my child for a delicate procedure in the care of a person who may have been allowed in with crappier stats than the worst white student who got in, and who may have been given better evaluations by their attendings for their rotations for fear of being accused of discrimination after the fact. scores may not mean everything, but they sure as hell mean enough to determine a great deal of who gets into schools. how can any black person in medicine not HATE AA? it tears down your credibility and the pride you should have in your achievements by making every person who looks at you FAIRLY wonder whether you were med school material on a color blind scale or you were only med school material by virtue of being black in a society that relishes its AA. the place for blame for that doubt of a doctor's skill is rightly on AA, not the health care consumer who knows that black med students didn't have to have as good grades and scores as their white counterparts. think about it--would you rather fly on airline A, which requires all pilots to pass XYZ intense flying requirements, or airline B, which requires all non-black pilots to pass XYZ intense flying requirements but allows black pilots to fly when they've achieved a score 3/4 that of the minimum passing score for non-blacks? tell ya what, i'll be on the plane with the greatest damned pilots on earth, and if airline B's black pilots feel offended, i'll extend my middle finger in sympathy. you can't have it both ways--either you get extra help to get it and extra leniency on the requirements and thus accept rightfully-placed sketpicism as to your qualifications; or you don't get any extra bennies from being black and hold your head high in pride that your accomplishments are unblemished by any special crutches granted you by the admissions committee.

2) given what you said, would you be in favor of economic-based AA only, and abolition of race-based admissions?

 

[Whodathunkit]

and i will for sure be less likely to trust my child for a delicate procedure in the care of a person who may have been allowed in with crappier stats than the worst white student who got in, and who may have been given better evaluations by their attendings for their rotations for fear of being accused of discrimination after the fact.

You will never know whether this is true, and as a result, you will obviously never give a minority doctor their due respect...and that's a shame.

2) given what you said, would you be in favor of economic-based AA only, and abolition of race-based admissions?

I would be more in favor of economic based AA...but to paraphrase Chris Rock in one of his HBO Specials:

"There is not one White person in here that would want to trade places with me...AND I'M RICH!"

Take that for what it's worth.

 

[delchrys]

FYI, "I'll extend my middle finger in sympathy" to anyone who thinks I unqualified when I'm done with my MD/PhD progarm

you're a pathologist. i'm sure you're very qualified to look at slides.

 

[1Path]

you're a pathologist. i'm sure you're very qualified to look at slides.

Educate yourself man, pathologists do a hellva lot more than "read slides" or maybe you're one of those future surgeon types that thinks that the only "real" doctors see patients. Let's just see how you feel when you've got the patient on the table, and I'm the one you call waiting to see if you got all the tumor out or not!!!

BTW, would you trust my Dx when I DO become a pathologist? And if I got the Dx wrong, would you blame AA? THAT's the REAL question. What/Who do you blame when White and Asian doctors get the Dx wrong?

 

[ice_23]

Is someone going to answer my original question, what GPA, MCAT, EC activity, and volunteer experiences makes a person more or less qualified than another applicant???


FYI, "I'll extend my middle finger in sympathy" to anyone who thinks I unqualified when I'm done with my MD/PhD progarm

Tell me, how would you determine whether an applicant is better qualified or not? You've just questioned everything that makes up the criterion for medical school admissions aside from LOR's. What's your solution?

And I wasn't making any personal attacks on your educational background, so you can "retract your middle finger" with just as much "sympathy" as you raised it.

-Ice

 

[ice_23]

"There is not one White person in here that would want to trade places with me...AND I'M RICH!"

Take that for what it's worth.

I'd take his spot. I'm not rich and I'm considered an ORM.

-Ice

 

[1Path]

Tell me, how would you determine whether an applicant is better qualified or not? You've just questioned everything that makes up the criterion for medical school admissions aside from LOR's. What's your solution?

And I wasn't making any personal attacks on your educational background, so you can "retract your middle finger" with just as much "sympathy" as you raised it.

-Ice

Common dude, the middle finger was directed at delchrys who first made the middle finger comment! And even then it wasn't that serious. Go have a beer and relax yourself!

 

[1Path]

Tell me, how would you determine whether an applicant is better qualified or not? You've just questioned everything that makes up the criterion for medical school admissions aside from LOR's. What's your solution?

My solution, the MCAT cutoff would be 20 (I'm just wondering has anyone ever asked themselves why the MCAT report distribution ALWAYS is in the form of a bell curve? You KNOW they have to be doing some "fudging" to get this). My GPA cutoff would be 3.0 and I would adjust the scale on an individual basis. For example, a person with a 23 on the MCAT and a 3.75 GPA would be on the same "scale" as a person with a 36 MCAT and a 3.2 GPA, EC's, LOR's, ect being equal. This way I'd get a class that looks like Houston, TX instead of Bangor, Maine.

Students that entered with MCAT's lower than 25 would be REQUIRED to take a 6 week prep course for the USMLE's offered by the university to them for free and it wouldn't be offered during classes. Students that entered with GPA's below 3.3 would be REQUIRED to have tutors during the first year to make sure they passed their classes.

So you see it's real easy to bitch and moan about how wrong everything is, but a lot harder to actually talk about some type of solution.

 

[OrthoFixation]

1path, all GPA's are not created equal. Even variations of field of study at the same university can skew the numbers.

 

[delchrys]

My solution, the MCAT cutoff would be 20 (I'm just wondering has anyone ever asked themselves why the MCAT report distribution ALWAYS is in the form of a bell curve? You KNOW they have to be doing some "fudging" to get this). My GPA cutoff would be 3.0 and I would adjust the scale on an individual basis. For example, a person with a 23 on the MCAT and a 3.75 GPA would be on the same "scale" as a person with a 36 MCAT and a 3.2 GPA, EC's, LOR's, ect being equal. This way I'd get a class that looks like Houston, TX instead of Bangor, Maine.

Students that entered with MCAT's lower than 25 would be REQUIRED to take a 6 week prep course for the USMLE's offered by the university to them for free and it wouldn't be offered during classes. Students that entered with GPA's below 3.3 would be REQUIRED to have tutors during the first year to make sure they passed their classes.

So you see it's real easy to bitch and moan about how wrong everything is, but a lot harder to actually talk about some type of solution.

but with so few slots available in medical schools nationwide, what your method would do is tell students that hard work is essentially irrelevant, as even a blind turd can get the scores and grades you're talking about. what criteria WOULD matter, then, to distinguish one candidate from another?

 

[bigfrank]

Die Thread, DIE!!!

 

[visualwealth]

but with so few slots available in medical schools nationwide, what your method would do is tell students that hard work is essentially irrelevant, as even a blind turd can get the scores and grades you're talking about. what criteria WOULD matter, then, to distinguish one candidate from another?

hahaha blind turd... hahahahahahahahah sorry that was actually funny...

 

[ice_23]

My solution, the MCAT cutoff would be 20 (I'm just wondering has anyone ever asked themselves why the MCAT report distribution ALWAYS is in the form of a bell curve? You KNOW they have to be doing some "fudging" to get this).

My understanding is that they have some questions on exams which they use as standards. When 25,000 people take any exam, their distribution of scores starts to resemble a normal distribution (bell curve). There's no real "fudging" going on (although I'm intrigued as to what you mean by "fudging").

My GPA cutoff would be 3.0 and I would adjust the scale on an individual basis. For example, a person with a 23 on the MCAT and a 3.75 GPA would be on the same "scale" as a person with a 36 MCAT and a 3.2 GPA, EC's, LOR's, ect being equal. This way I'd get a class that looks like Houston, TX instead of Bangor, Maine.

Students that entered with MCAT's lower than 25 would be REQUIRED to take a 6 week prep course for the USMLE's offered by the university to them for free and it wouldn't be offered during classes. Students that entered with GPA's below 3.3 would be REQUIRED to have tutors during the first year to make sure they passed their classes.

So far, all you've done is increased the pool of people who can get into medical school. How do you select between them (which is now harder, given how big your applicant pool is) was my question.

So you see it's real easy to bitch and moan about how wrong everything is, but a lot harder to actually talk about some type of solution.

LOL, yea it is. I'm glad you finally see that. My solution (which has been consistent throughout) is to institute an economic style AA and/or legally enforce those who get in with low stats because they'll serve the underserved to actually go to those particular underserved places.

-Ice

 

[ice_23]

Common dude, the middle finger was directed at delchrys who first made the middle finger comment! And even then it wasn't that serious. Go have a beer and relax yourself!

Given that it was in response to my post, I (naturally) figured you thought I was attacking you personally. These threads can quickly degenerate into a series of ad hominem attacks; I didn't want you thinking I was doing my part in that. My bad.

-Ice

P.S. "Common dude..."???

 

[1Path]

So far, all you've done is increased the pool of people who can get into medical school. How do you select between them (which is now harder, given how big your applicant pool is) was my question.

There's going to be a shortage of docs in the near future. Short of opening more med school, this will help address that need.

Now, everyone has comments about my "plan" but no one has proposed another one or tried to tweak the I proposed. Anyone wanna contribute some solutions???

 

[OzDDS]

Ugh, I'm jumping in again, but I'm too argumentative to let go. Sue me. Or better yet, lock the thread!

If the reason to admit URM's is because they are more likely to serve in underserved areas, then why not make those URM's who get the AA "benefit" to sign contracts stating that they must serve in said communities or face some sort of financial penalty?

-Ice

Thank You! Yes!

Back to my original proposal..
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?p=2325044#post2325044

 

[1Path]

Thank You! Yes!

Back to my original proposal..
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?p=2325044#post2325044

Not bad but unless I missed some point, your ideas don't address the credentials of the students admitted which IS the souce of so much angst in the admissions process.

 

[germ]

but with so few slots available in medical schools nationwide, what your method would do is tell students that hard work is essentially irrelevant, as even a blind turd can get the scores and grades you're talking about. what criteria WOULD matter, then, to distinguish one candidate from another?

Your sense of fairness is on par for that of a 5 year old. You can't compare years of systemic racism to what happened during LA riots. Many of your other analogies are equally misguided.

Its been said a dozen times but you refuse to listen. The schools look at many other factors when deciding who to admit. Otherwise you could send in one page envelope with your GPA and MCAT. And simply pick the top scores.


As for the URMs that are getting into schools, they are qualified. Not just any URM can send in an application. Those that are getting accepted are still being scrutinized in other ways. AA is not automatic and schools look for other strengths.

This thread is just a subtle and covert way for you and others to express thier racism. Nothing is being advanced here and reasonablee people have given up on this thread long ago.