Do Minorites have admission advantages?

[bigfrank]

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[SuitsYou]

The hoff says

Let it go

 

[GraC_undr_PrsR]

What is an "atypical URM"? Do white medical students automatically assume black students got in through the back door? I'm tired of threads like these. Too many black students feel the need to prove that they have earned their place in medical school, in hospitals, in academic medicine, at the NIH, etc. etc. -- Myself, I'm a 1st generation Guyanese-American of African descent. Yes my ancestors were slaves. Stereotypical or Atypical.
Kudos to the white students who posted about the ridiculous nature of posts like these. But the truth is: this is a reality for black pre-meds. I'm in graduate school abroad working hard to get into medical school in '08. It saddens me to know what I have to look forward to when I get back to the U.S. and into medical school: people assuming I got in to fit a quota.
Colleagues, let us shake this off and not allow this craziness to lead to self-hate. 50 years ago, blacks would *not* have been selected to a majority of the medical schools (regardless of how competitive the applicant). I take pride in being able to step through doors forced open.

~GraC

 

[akaz]

am a URM, native american ( enrolled triabl registry) 40 on the MCAT and 3.69 gpa at a really good school. Tons of research, publications (even a book), shadowed folks at the Brigham and MGH. On and on and on. Everyone told me. You will get in everywhere. Not true, I was rejected at a couple of IVY schools and waitlisted. I thought I had an advantage. A couple mexican students said same experience. Good Gpa in engineering, good MCATs, rejected lots of places. I got in to some and rejected at others just like everyone else. I too thought being a URM gave me an advantage. It is just a myth. There are so many URMs applying that the competition is just as stiff.

What is an "atypical URM"? Do white medical students automatically assume black students got in through the back door? I'm tired of threads like these. Too many black students feel the need to prove that they have earned their place in medical school, in hospitals, in academic medicine, at the NIH, etc. etc. -- Myself, I'm a 1st generation Guyanese-American of African descent. Yes my ancestors were slaves. Stereotypical or Atypical.
Kudos to the white students who posted about the ridiculous nature of posts like these. But the truth is: this is a reality for black pre-meds. I'm in graduate school abroad working hard to get into medical school in '08. It saddens me to know what I have to look forward to when I get back to the U.S. and into medical school: people assuming I got in to fit a quota.
Colleagues, let us shake this off and not allow this craziness to lead to self-hate. 50 years ago, blacks would *not* have been selected to a majority of the medical schools (regardless of how competitive the applicant). I take pride in being able to step through doors forced open.

~GraC

 

[PoliticalMD2Be]

Yeah.. what about all the white trash kids who live in goverment housing. They come from the same background as the one you were trying to claim. Yet they have it even harder, because they are still considered "white". So of course they don't have anyone looking out for them.

They could file as a disadvantaged applicant if they wanted to.

 

[Brainsucker]

Die Thread, Die!!!

You can't kill an AA thread. The damn thing's metastasized all over the place. Only way to kill it is to wipe out SDN. Hell, even then it'd probably pop up somewhere else.

 

[f_w]

40 on the MCAT and 3.69 gpa at a really good school. Tons of research, publications (even a book),

I might be a bit ignorant on the details of medschool admission, but with this background, would you even need to file as URM ?

 

[Scalpellum]

Here is the MCAT scores and GPAs by Hispanic Ethnicity or Non-Hispanic Race for 2005. When looking at this it only takes in account the applicants MCAT and GPA. Obviously other extracurricular activities are also important in gaining admissions to medical school.

 

[akaz]

Probably not, but young native students need good role models. You wouldn't believe the lack of roll models. Over 56% of the population does not even have a high school diploma. The schools are terrible and substance abuse is a huge problem. Any role model that young people can have is useful. My cousins panhandle It is vital.

I might be a bit ignorant on the details of medschool admission, but with this background, would you even need to file as URM ?

 

[Rafa]

Why the hell did you raise this thread?

 

[cfdavid]

When the distribution of minority physicians reflects our population.

I believe most people on this thread have totally missed the point of URMs. The goal initially of the AAMC was not to give minorities an advantage because an "injustice" or disadvantages in their life due to actions of a past generation. The goal is to represent these under-represented populations in medicine because research (and you can look this up on pubmed, this is NOT arguable) shows us that blacks like to be treated by black physicians and hispanics by hispanic physicians. I myself try to understand this and I guess it makes sense that patents may feel more confidence in someone of their own ethnicity and/or race.

QUOTE]

I don't doubt that's what research shows. But, does that make it right? What about striving for a color blind society? It just seems like there are too many double standards.

Coincidentally, just today, I was waiting for a histology lab to begin. I was early and saw some students (though it didn't register at the moment, in retrospect they were minority students) coming out of a door that said "computer lab". I walked in (as a white guy) and saw a bunch of tubes all around. Then, before I knew it, I heard a rather blunt "can I help you?". I'm like, "uh, yeah. is this a student computer lab?". And the girl goes, "yes, but only for certain students".

O.k., whatever, but I did notice that above all the monitors were signs that said, "Kaplan MCAT", "DAT", etc. So, it occured to me that it was a lab for minority-only, professional test prep. So, essentially, I wasn't even allowed in the room as a white student. Whatever....

It's not that I actually care about having a needs-based program that allows access to some rather expensive test prep materials and online courses to students in need. Frankly, I think that would be great. But, this was ONLY for students of "color", rather than for any student in economic need (I checked). So, what's up with that?

 

[akaz]

I understand what you are saying. I am not for that. I am for visibility of native american med students and physicians as mentors to young native students. It helps to see some people achieve when so many around you are not. When you are young, you want to know that someone did it. I think mentorship for ALL young people is crucial no matter what racial or ethnic background. It just happens that there are not many native american physicians to do this.

When the distribution of minority physicians reflects our population.

I believe most people on this thread have totally missed the point of URMs. The goal initially of the AAMC was not to give minorities an advantage because an "injustice" or disadvantages in their life due to actions of a past generation. The goal is to represent these under-represented populations in medicine because research (and you can look this up on pubmed, this is NOT arguable) shows us that blacks like to be treated by black physicians and hispanics by hispanic physicians. I myself try to understand this and I guess it makes sense that patents may feel more confidence in someone of their own ethnicity and/or race.

QUOTE]

I don't doubt that's what research shows. But, does that make it right? What about striving for a color blind society? It just seems like there are too many double standards.

Coincidentally, just today, I was waiting for a histology lab to begin. I was early and saw some students (though it didn't register at the moment, in retrospect they were minority students) coming out of a door that said "computer lab". I walked in (as a white guy) and saw a bunch of tubes all around. Then, before I knew it, I heard a rather blunt "can I help you?". I'm like, "uh, yeah. is this a student computer lab?". And the girl goes, "yes, but only for certain students".

O.k., whatever, but I did notice that above all the monitors were signs that said, "Kaplan MCAT", "DAT", etc. So, it occured to me that it was a lab for minority-only, professional test prep. So, essentially, I wasn't even allowed in the room as a white student. Whatever....

It's not that I actually care about having a needs-based program that allows access to some rather expensive test prep materials and online courses to students in need. Frankly, I think that would be great. But, this was ONLY for students of "color", rather than for any student in economic need (I checked). So, what's up with that?

 

[f_w]

Probably not, but young native students need good role models. You wouldn't believe the lack of roll models. Over 56% of the population does not even have a high school diploma. The schools are terrible and substance abuse is a huge problem. Any role model that young people can have is useful.

Sure, while I can't profess any firsthand knowledge of the situation in the native american community, I gather that much that it is pretty dismal.

But you won't be any less of a role model if you got into school under the general admission category.

MCAT 40, 3.7GPA and research sounds pretty good to me. And unless I am completely mistaken on this, you should have had a good shot at getting into a medschool without filing under the URM quota.

(my wife is URM but didn't apply under any of the URM admission programs, in fact she got outright offended when an interviewer kept bothering her why she didn't put it down on her app. she had a stellar GPA/decent MCAT and good research giving her a pick of schools).

 

[akaz]

Yes, but that is not the point. The point is the pride of being an enrolled member of a tribe. The pride in the connectedness to a community and being part of a independent sovereign native nation. Why does it matter that I applied as such if I am such an integral member of this community? It is like identifying yourself as a US citizen. Why do you bother to do that? Because you are a US citizen. I am an Ojibwa citizen and I am truly proud of this. We are in the process of nations building and I would never deny my community. It is an act of cowardice and the elders would shame me.

Sure, while I can't profess any firsthand knowledge of the situation in the native american community, I gather that much that it is pretty dismal.

But you won't be any less of a role model if you got into school under the general admission category.

MCAT 40, 3.7GPA and research sounds pretty good to me. And unless I am completely mistaken on this, you should have had a good shot at getting into a medschool without filing under the URM quota.

(my wife is URM but didn't apply under any of the URM admission programs, in fact she got outright offended when an interviewer kept bothering her why she didn't put it down on her app. she had a stellar GPA/decent MCAT and good research giving her a pick of schools).

 

[f_w]

Yes, but that is not the point. The point is the pride of being an enrolled member of a tribe. The pride in the connectedness to a community and being part of a independent sovereign native nation. Why does it matter that I applied as such if I am such an integral member of this community? It is like identifying yourself as a US citizen. Why do you bother to do that? Because you are a US citizen. I am an Ojibwa citizen and I am truly proud of this. We are in the process of nations building and I would never deny my community. It is an act of cowardice and the elders would shame me.

Sorry, didn't mean to insult you.

Do they put you into the URM pile automatically these days if you note a particular ethnicity or tribal membership or do you still have to specifically request consideration as URM.

Nobody wants you to to deny your heritage and nationality, but from what I can tell you have overcome whatever obstacles this put in front of you.

 

[akaz]

I don't think you ID as URM specifically,. I think they do that because I never heard that term until a month ago. They do ask tribal membership and ask to see your tribal card, but that has to do with the fact that if you take out loans and later agree to go back to your reservation, the federal government forgives them. IDing as native I think is different than the others because you are registered with the federal government. Even when I haven't ID'd it--health care, folks always know if they have my SSN. The federal government has that info because they started collected census with the BIA removal and relocation. It is not offensive, but the culture as a whole has been forced to identify. However, since we have finally obtained independence and are getting off federal money, IDing ourselves as independent is important.

Sorry, didn't mean to insult you.

Do they put you into the URM pile automatically these days if you note a particular ethnicity or tribal membership or do you still have to specifically request consideration as URM.

Nobody wants you to to deny your heritage and nationality, but from what I can tell you have overcome whatever obstacles this put in front of you.

 

[cfdavid]

I understand what you are saying. I am not for that. I am for visibility of native american med students and physicians as mentors to young native students. It helps to see some people achieve when so many around you are not. When you are young, you want to know that someone did it. I think mentorship for ALL young people is crucial no matter what racial or ethnic background. It just happens that there are not many native american physicians to do this.



akaz, I completely agree how important postitive role models are to young people. i'm all for it, and kudos to those that are willing to step up and do something about it.

 

[dogangel]

Some very good points...but man your gonna get flamed

Panda...I don't think that those of whom you speak are who people get upset about. It is those with 19's on their MCATs that get in, and yeah I know someone.

Funny cause I know non-URMS who got in with 20's on their MCAT. I wonder what that means?

 

[studybug]

Funny cause I know non-URMS who got in with 20's on their MCAT. I wonder what that means?

It baffles me that many people especially prospective physicians are still lacking knowledge and truth. Let's just say AA has been dead for a few years now. What you have taking its place is "disadvantaged status" be you black or white. If you're black you apply as a URM and if you're white you claim disadvanatged status. These two groups are treated the same. I am black and applied as a URM but my undergrad GPA from computer science is 3.973 and a graduate GPA of 4.0. Eight years experience as a Military medic, top recommentation from a solid committee, and good LORs from physicians, saved many lives and caught illness that were sometimes missed at the ER. Not one of you is going to tell me that I got into medical school because I applied as a URM. The schools are not stupid, they usually pick the best of the URMs. You also have to understand that Hispanics, blacks, and Native Americans and some Indians can apply URM if they qualify under the guidelines. Minorities from affluent families don't qualify.
You have to understand why the stats for the average minorities are lower. The problem is English. On the average, blacks and especially Hispanics have a poorer command of the English Language because it is a second language to them (including blacks of foreign origin). These usually lead to low scores on standardized tests, and some college work usually in the freshman and sophomore years.
I know of a white girl who applied as a disadvantaged applicant in 2002 with 22 MCAT and 3.3 GPA from CT. She was selected for a postbac program by AECOM and only had to get Bs or better for one year at UB and did not have to retake the MCAT. She's going to be MS3 in a few weeks.
So if you're white and believe you are disadvantaged, apply so, and trust me your application will be treated like the other URMs.
And finally, let's show some respect for people irrespective of their color who make it through four years of medical school, they are true professionals and deserve the credit for a job well done.

 

[8744]

It baffles me that many people especially prospective physicians are still lacking knowledge and truth. Let's just say AA has been dead for a few years now. What you have taking its place is "disadvantaged status" be you black or white. If you're black you apply as a URM and if you're white you claim disadvanatged status. These two groups are treated the same. I am black and applied as a URM but my undergrad GPA from computer science is 3.973 and a graduate GPA of 4.0. Eight years experience as a Military medic, top recommentation from a solid committee, and good LORs from physicians, saved many lives and caught illness that were sometimes missed at the ER. Not one of you is going to tell me that I got into medical school because I applied as a URM. The schools are not stupid, they usually pick the best of the URMs. You also have to understand that Hispanics, blacks, and Native Americans and some Indians can apply URM if they qualify under the guidelines. Minorities from affluent families don't qualify.
You have to understand why the stats for the average minorities are lower. The problem is English. On the average, blacks and especially Hispanics have a poorer command of the English Language because it is a second language to them (including blacks of foreign origin). These usually lead to low scores on standardized tests, and some college work usually in the freshman and sophomore years.
I know of a white girl who applied as a disadvantaged applicant in 2002 with 22 MCAT and 3.3 GPA from CT. She was selected for a postbac program by AECOM and only had to get Bs or better for one year at UB and did not have to retake the MCAT. She's going to be MS3 in a few weeks.
So if you're white and believe you are disadvantaged, apply so, and trust me your application will be treated like the other URMs.
And finally, let's show some respect for people irrespective of their color who make it through four years of medical school, they are true professionals and deserve the credit for a job well done.

Yeah, but you applied as a URM. See the point? Why did you need to? Simple, because you quite rationally gamed the system to increase your chances of getting in where you wanted to. No shame in it because you have got to do what you have got to do in what is a somewhat corrupt system.

 

[akaz]

No one needed to. We merely identified who we were. I identified myself as 3/4 native and 1/4 white. I had great extracurriculars, a book, some research publications, a graduate degree, a 40 on my MCAT, 790 Verbal , 800 Anayltical, 780 Quant GRE. I studied math and neuroscience with a 3.69 gpa, 3.89 BCPM. I had an HHMI fellowship. Yeah, I must be considered disadvantage even though I didn't apply as such because my parental contribution by financial aid and fafsa was 0. I disdain rich white kids with their advantages that can't match this. What is wrong with them? My husband came from wealth and long line of IVY league grads. They don't measure up. Why did white kids id themselves as white? Because they are white.

Yeah, but you applied as a URM. See the point? Why did you need to? Simple, because you quite rationally gamed the system to increase your chances of getting in where you wanted to. No shame in it because you have got to do what you have got to do in what is a somewhat corrupt system.

 

[studybug]

Yeah, but you applied as a URM. See the point? Why did you need to? Simple, because you quite rationally gamed the system to increase your chances of getting in where you wanted to. No shame in it because you have got to do what you have got to do in what is a somewhat corrupt system.

I'm sorry to say your response didn't make a lot of sense to me. I simply applied as a URM because I fit the profile. I was asked the question on my AMCAS application, I read into it and realized it fits me well. I did it for stats reason and not to boost my chances of gaining acceptance anywhere. As a matter of fact, i didn't apply to big name schools even though I believe I would have gained acceptance to some. My goal is to become a physician and care for all of humankind.

 

[akaz]

Good for you!!! Proud conservative boy is probaby one of the doesn't measure up. URMs need more visability and if conservative boy can't hack it that is his or her prob. People that are truly talented don't complain about it.

I'm sorry to say your response didn't make a lot of sense to me. I simply applied as a URM because I fit the profile. I was asked the question on my AMCAS application, I read into it and realized it fits me well. I did it for stats reason and not to boost my chances of gaining acceptance anywhere. As a matter of fact, i didn't apply to big name schools even though I believe I would have gained acceptance to some. My goal is to become a physician and care for all of humankind.

 

[1Path]

People that are truly talented don't complain about it.

 

[SkylineMD]

I'm tired of threads like these.

and instead of letting the thread die as it had done a year ago, you brought it back from the dead for another round of useless arguments from both sides.

 

[sga814]

do minorities have advantage? yes
did minorities have an advantage b/f the seventies? no, in fact the opposite was true
is it right? - debate amonst yourselves

 

[8744]

I'm sorry to say your response didn't make a lot of sense to me. I simply applied as a URM because I fit the profile. I was asked the question on my AMCAS application, I read into it and realized it fits me well. I did it for stats reason and not to boost my chances of gaining acceptance anywhere. As a matter of fact, i didn't apply to big name schools even though I believe I would have gained acceptance to some. My goal is to become a physician and care for all of humankind.

It clearly says on every application that checking the race box is optional.

 

[studybug]

Good for you!!! Proud conservative boy is probaby one of the doesn't measure up. URMs need more visability and if conservative boy can't hack it that is his or her prob. People that are truly talented don't complain about it.

You are absolutely right akaz, I couldn't agree more.

 

[f_w]

My kids 'race' will allway be listed as 'declined'. This is how the vital records office recorded them, and this is how it will remain. It is none of the goverments business to know about the 'race' of their citizens. In fact, the US is one of the few countries that even allows this information to be recorded in public documents.

 

[Rafa]

I'm tired of threads like these.

Then stop resurrecting them. This one had been dead for over a year before you brought it back from the grave. Only daft people light fires and complain of the heat.

 

[voltron77]

Then stop resurrecting them. This one had been dead for over a year before you brought it back from the grave. Only daft people light fires and complain of the heat.

Thanks Rafa! This post is so old.....and frankly, tired.........

Let it go!!!!!!

 

[Newton Bohr MD]

 

[Boromir]

bump

 

[velo]

ZOMBIE THREAD!!!! RUN!!!!!!

IT WAS DEAD AND NOW......NOW......AARRRRRGHGHGHG