Do Minorites have admission advantages?

[ice_23]

Its been said a dozen times but you refuse to listen. The schools look at many other factors when deciding who to admit. Otherwise you could send in one page envelope with your GPA and MCAT. And simply pick the top scores.


As for the URMs that are getting into schools, they are qualified. Not just any URM can send in an application. Those that are getting accepted are still being scrutinized in other ways. AA is not automatic and schools look for other strengths.

That is not the argument. The argument is that at the margin, a URM with lower statistics is getting in over an ORM or white male with higher statistics. Your argument is that in each and every one of these marginal cases, the URM in question always has "something more to offer" while we are arguing that that "extra thing they offer" is their race. And my argument is, why should the average ORM who gets in have to have higher statistics than a URM? Does their "race" or "experience" not count?

Nothing is being advanced here and reasonablee people have given up on this thread long ago.

Displaying pictures of lynchings doesn't advance any argument.

-Ice

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Members don't see this ad.

 

[ice_23]

There's going to be a shortage of docs in the near future. Short of opening more med school, this will help address that need.

Now, everyone has comments about my "plan" but no one has proposed another one or tried to tweak the I proposed. Anyone wanna contribute some solutions???

Hmmm...you still haven't discussed how you PICK between candidates. You're just saying that increasing the pool is good because we'll need more doctors. As it stands, already half the people who apply to medical school get rejected. So the pool, it would seem, is already big enough.

-Ice

 

[1Path]

Hmmm...you still haven't discussed how you PICK between candidates. You're just saying that increasing the pool is good because we'll need more doctors. As it stands, already half the people who apply to medical school get rejected. So the pool, it would seem, is already big enough.

-Ice

Perhpas, but I'm trying to make sure that everone who makes the initial cut, at least has a "fair" shot at getting a seat. Futhermore, I don't think it would be too hard to distinguish between candidates. For example, it's REAL easy to distinguish between a person who volunteers for alturistic reasons and one who does it to make their apps to med school look good. The person in the later case would get rejected by me with a quickness UNLESS their SES says that they didn't have much time to spare on such activities because of their need to work. Someone who was president of their fraternity wouldn't be as quite an attractive candidate as a person that was president of their local town's homeless shelter foundation.

It's not hard to find good, capable candidates to med school. One just has to be committed time wise to making good choices.

So how would YOU pick candidates? Oh yeah, highest GPA and MCAT?

 

[ice_23]

Perhpas, but I'm trying to make sure that everone who makes the initial cut, at least has a "fair" shot at getting a seat.

An MCAT score of 20 is well below the national average of 24. Why not go down to 15 or better yet, eliminate the test? Of course, it IS the only objective standard we have between two candidates as it stands.

Futhermore, I don't think it would be too hard to distinguish between candidates. For example, it's REAL easy to distinguish between a person who volunteers for alturistic reasons and one who does it to make their apps to med school look good. The person in the later case would get rejected by me with a quickness UNLESS their SES says that they didn't have much time to spare on such activities because of their need to work. It's not hard to find good, capable candidates to med school. One just has to be committed time wise to making good choices.

I'm sorry, I don't think it's as easy as you say (especially not REALLY easy) to distinguish between someone who does volunteer work for altruistic reasons vs. someone who does it to beef up their application.

So how would YOU pick candidates? Oh yeah, highest GPA and MCAT?

You make it sound like GPA and MCAT have no bearing whatsoever on how well you do in medical school. Doing well in your classes and doing well on tests is highly correlated with how well you do on both your boards and in medical school (i've posted a link to the data somewhere earlier in this thread).

-Ice

 

[1Path]

An MCAT score of 20 is well below the national average of 24.

By using national average as a "standard" you're comparing students whose parents could afford $2000 in prep courses with those who can't and we all know that folks of EVER race, color and creed, who take the prep courses do better on standardized tests. For GPA, you're comparing students who had to WORK to even attend college with those who are riding the finances of their parents.Why don't you just say I only want to admit folks who can afford the prep courses and whose parents can afford to help them.

You make it sound like GPA and MCAT have no bearing whatsoever on how well you do in medical school. Doing well in your classes and doing well on tests is highly correlated with how well you do on both your boards and in medical school (i've posted a link to the data somewhere earlier in this thread). -Ice

And you act like the ONLY ingredient for becoming a good doctor is to have a high GPA, MCAT. I know of a few folks with high GPA's and MCAT's (who aren't minorities, BTW) that flunked their boards a once or twice and became GREAT doctors!

Finally, there's that the last fact which you haven't discussed called RACISM which definitely plays a role in the grades some students get. I know that in my own case I can point to at least 4 grades (over the course of 3 college degrees) that I received but didn't earn because the proff was a racist jacka$$ and whether you want to stick your head in the sand or not about this, I'm sure I'm not the only one this has happened to.

 

[ice_23]

By using national average as a "standard" you're comparing students whose parents could afford $2000 in prep courses with those who can't and we all know that folks of EVER race, color and creed, who take the prep courses do better on standardized tests. For GPA, you're comparing students who had to WORK to even attend college with those who are riding the finances of their parents.Why don't you just say I only want to admit folks who can afford the prep courses and whose parents can afford to help them.

You're arguing that people who score above the national average are mainly rich people who take prep courses??

And you act like the ONLY ingredient for becoming a good doctor is to have a high GPA, MCAT. I know of a few folks with high GPA's and MCAT's (who aren't minorities, BTW) that flunked their boards a once or twice and became GREAT doctors!

No I don't. I just said it was important because it's highly correlated with how well you do in medical school. You seem to think it doesn't matter at all (by having a "cutoff" for the MCAT well below the national average).

Finally, there's that the last fact which you haven't discussed called RACISM which definitely plays a role in the grades some students get. I know that in my own case I can point to at least 4 grades (over the course of 3 college degrees) that I received but didn't earn because the proff was a racist jacka$$ and whether you want to stick your head in the sand or not about this, I'm sure I'm not the only one this has happened to.

Hmm...so if an applicant is black or hispanic, how much of an extra boost do you give them via GPA for this? For EVERY candidate? Do other races get any boost? Will you do it for gender (i.e. give females a boost in engineering disciplines and males a boost in feminist studies)?

Also, you've hand waved around how you actually PICK between students. You've simply said it was easy...

-Ice

 

[germ]

That is not the argument. The argument is that at the margin, a URM with lower statistics is getting in over an ORM or white male with higher statistics. Your argument is that in each and every one of these marginal cases, the URM in question always has "something more to offer" while we are arguing that that "extra thing they offer" is their race. And my argument is, why should the average ORM who gets in have to have higher statistics than a URM? Does their "race" or "experience" not count?

Bottom line: Schools can admit anyone they want, ANYONE. They cannot deny anyone based on their race. If a URM is accepted over a white someone, ITDOES NOT MEAN THAT THE WHITE PERSON WAS DENIED BECAUSE OF RACE. It was recognized by the Supreme Court(much wiser people than you are me) that schools can use race as an admission criteria to achieve thier goals(whatever they maybe)

ALso you can't argue reverse descrimination when the class is 50%white and 2%URM

So I agree that in the big picture(all things being equal) race should not be a factor. However, WHat about White women. They too have traditionally scored lower than white men. AA works for women too not just URMs. Look at the women on the police force and Fire fighters.

ALso thise pictures are to an argument. They show the level of racism that many blacks faced. They were not that long ago. Just becasue you don't remeber it because you are a young, doesnot mean it did not happen or that its effects are still not felt today. Its was A huge PRoblem that destroyed lives of millions of Black Americans, and has set them up for the poverty and social ills that many face today.

I'm WHite by the way German Irish

 

[ice_23]

Bottom line: Schools can admit anyone they want, ANYONE. They cannot deny anyone based on their race. If a URM is accepted over a white someone, ITDOES NOT MEAN THAT THE WHITE PERSON WAS DENIED BECAUSE OF RACE. It was recognized by the Supreme Court(much wiser people than you are me) that schools can use race as an admission criteria to achieve thier goals(whatever they maybe)

Ok, but that's dodging the issue. You can of course say: "I admitted a URM with lower stats because I have that right" as opposed to "I didn't admit the equally qualified ORM/white at the margin because I admitted said URM." If you do the first, you're still doing the second, regardless of whether you say it.

If the only difference between two equal candidates is race, and if one race keeps getting in while the other has too "low" stats to get admitted, then you're basically saying to the rejected applicant that his or her race isn't favored. At the margin, schools are admitting and denying because of race.

ALso you can't argue reverse descrimination when the class is 50%white and 2%URM

It's the principle of the argument at the margin. You can't just say that because there are more white people accepted in absolute terms, then URM's are being discriminated against and need relatively more help. If you don't agree, then you can't argue that blacks/latinos are poor when almost half (44%) of all poor people in the U.S. are white. Since more poor people are white in absolute terms, are they being discriminated against?

So I agree that in the big picture(all things being equal) race should not be a factor. However, WHat about White women. They too have traditionally scored lower than white men. AA works for women too not just URMs. Look at the women on the police force and Fire fighters.

I don't believe that's right either.

ALso thise pictures are to an argument. They show the level of racism that many blacks faced. They were not that long ago. Just becasue you don't remeber it because you are a young, doesnot mean it did not happen or that its effects are still not felt today. Its was A huge PRoblem that destroyed lives of millions of Black Americans, and has set them up for the poverty and social ills that many face today.

Most of the people in this thread know that lynchings and cross burnings and slavery existed. Posting pictures like that is blatantly provacative. It's not that I don't remember that such things occurred; I'm arguing on principle here. What about other races (i.e. the chinese) that have been discriminated against? Shouldn't they get *some* piece of the AA as well?

-Ice

 

[1Path]

Also, you've hand waved around how you actually PICK between students. You've simply said it was easy...

I actually gave you a plan, but instead of adding to it or offering some suggestions, you simply sat on your arse and critized it.

BTW, I didn't say give the minority a boost because of a lower GPA, I said that in interpreting the GPA's of URM's you HAVE to consider the fact that there's probably at least one grade they were given BECAUSE they were black. Why don't you deal with THIS issue? Looks like you only want to play the race card about stats when it benefits your argument.

Finally, I NEVER stated MCAT and GPA aren't improtant they just aren't the ONLY factors that contribute to how students do on their boards. Luckily, the adcoms know this too! .

 

[delchrys]

Finally, there's that the last fact which you haven't discussed called RACISM which definitely plays a role in the grades some students get. I know that in my own case I can point to at least 4 grades (over the course of 3 college degrees) that I received but didn't earn because the proff was a racist jacka$$ and whether you want to stick your head in the sand or not about this, I'm sure I'm not the only one this has happened to.

yeeees? and i can point at two grades i got that were lower because of the fact that my prof was biased against me, one for being male and another for being white. the latter instance is for SURE, because she flat-out told me in a one-on-one meeting that she "owes it" to black students to make sure that their struggle is given "due credit" in light of having to compete against a white male who has, by virtue of that fact, grown up with "incredible advantages."

it's so offensive that you operate with this false presumption that black people are victimized by white people via racism while white people do not experience the same crap when the tables are turned.

the rest of your argument was an economic argument, not a race-based one, so it does 100% of jack squat to further your attempt to pursuade anyone that AA is somehow justified or right.

 

[delchrys]

BotIf a URM is accepted over a white someone, ITDOES NOT MEAN THAT THE WHITE PERSON WAS DENIED BECAUSE OF RACE.

same goes in reverse, man. just because med schools are filled with mostly white students doesn't mean that black people are being discriminated against. period. it just means their objective stats (MCAT and GPA) are simply not high enough to justify allowing any more entry than is already done.

It was recognized by the Supreme Court(much wiser people than you are me) that schools can use race as an admission criteria to achieve thier goals(whatever they maybe)

yeah, and they explicitly said that they will NOT allow this practice indefinitely, AND they said that something as explicit as a point system giving bonus points for being black is not allowed. most significantly, two of the most intelligent justices, antonin scalia and clarence thomas (yes, clarence thomas, black guy extrordinaire) dissented and ripped sandra shipsh*t o'connor a new butt for essentially violating every shred of consitutional law and supreme court jurisprudence and essentially deciding the case without any legal basis whatsoever. but i guess that doesn't matter.

They show the level of racism that many blacks faced. They were not that long ago. Just becasue you don't remeber it because you are a young, doesnot mean it did not happen or that its effects are still not felt today. Its was A huge PRoblem that destroyed lives of millions of Black Americans, and has set them up for the poverty and social ills that many face today.

or, teh thing that set them up for poverty and social ills is the persistent social phenomenon in the black community whereby the act of obtaining an education is seen as being an "uncle tom" or an "oreo" and essentially frowned upon. but, of course, that would be bringing up personal responsibility for one's life, and we can't have that...remember what happened to bill cosby when he tried it.

 

[kornnata]

Using mdapplicnts is probably the worst thing you can do. The site isn't reliable as there is no way to check the credibility of the people who post profiles. What I am going by is the information provided by the AAMC which is verified as well as the study done by the Center For Equal Opportunity.

Why is it that on average URMs get into medical school with lower scores overall. Are you really telling me that all blacks and hispanics have amazing experiences that no white or non URM has ever experienced? Please, that's total BS.

It comes down to the fact that medical schools are willing to let in less qualified applicants of different races. Is it fair that a middle class asian and black person are judged differently even though economically they are the same? Hmm, that's what I call racism in my book. It just happens to be in reverse.

And to about your 3.9 and 40 MCAT thing. People with those stats overwhelmingly get into medical schools. Why is it that the average MCAT score for people attending Harvard is at least a 33 or the people attending Wash U is at least 36. Schools want competent students who will do will in medical school as well as perform well on their board exams.

What you are advocating is that when a URM gets in with lower stats, it is completely fair because of some perceived injustices they MAY OR MAY NOT have incurred while completely ignoring the fact that non URMs and whites may go through the same crap. It's reverse racism and it's wrong. It's wrong to demean the accomplishments of a URM by basuically implying that because they got an average score for most applicants, just because they are black or brown that average score is really good for their race.

Please, that's disgusting and demeaning. It's just that the application process is so competitive that as long as people get their seat, they could care less of any injustices. So please, continue supporting this type of admissions policies since it doesn't hurt you.

A lot of people here bring back some chapters of American history, does anyone here aware of Chinese Exclusion Act of 1882?


http://faculty.ncwc.edu/toconnor/soc/355lect10.htm

 

[trauma_junky]

Let me first say that i know that race usually is a heated issue, but i can't help notice that some post thier race w/ thier Gpa and MCAT scores when commenting on the Medical School Admission process. I have seen so few Black Doctors that it makes me wonder if the applicant pool for Med School is scarce of minority applicants or are there other issues involved? Are there advantages for Minorites who apply to Med School in compared to thier Non-minority counterparts? Are they given 'extra points' for race? plz don't flame me this is an honest question

Is the pope catholic?

 

[trauma_junky]

A lot of people here bring back some chapters of American history, does anyone here aware of Chinese Exclusion Act of 1882?


http://faculty.ncwc.edu/toconnor/soc/355lect10.htm

What about the equal rights amendment? It states one will not be discriminated based apon race. I guess caucasions are not a race? The rhetoric does not define what qualifies as a race; and with this verbage, URM advantages is discriminating against non URM's

 

[monstermatch]

For goodness sake, will someone please kill this thread? ENOUGH ALREADY!

 

[trauma_junky]

For goodness sake, will someone please kill this thread? ENOUGH ALREADY!

No, we will not rest until the double standard is dead.

 

[Jamaican MD]

Affirmative Action will continue to be necessary until the people who've historically been oppressed can catch up with the people who've traditionally had the upper hand.

 

[monstermatch]

No, we will not rest until the double standard is dead.

Dude, GET A LIFE!!!
And will someone please just KILL THIS STINKING THREAD!!

 

[ice_23]

I actually gave you a plan, but instead of adding to it or offering some suggestions, you simply sat on your arse and critized it.

Read over your argument. ALL you've done is increased the pool. You have NEVER said how you'd pick between two candidates, you've simply said it was easy.

BTW, I didn't say give the minority a boost because of a lower GPA, I said that in interpreting the GPA's of URM's you HAVE to consider the fact that there's probably at least one grade they were given BECAUSE they were black. Why don't you deal with THIS issue? Looks like you only want to play the race card about stats when it benefits your argument.

The problem is HOW. HOW are you going to "consider" the racism in their application? HOW do you determine which black person/latino person was more discriminated against? It's all happy and good when you say that one "should consider" something, but HOW does that "consideration" come into play in reality?

Finally, I NEVER stated MCAT and GPA aren't improtant they just aren't the ONLY factors that contribute to how students do on their boards. Luckily, the adcoms know this too! .

Given that you are using an MCAT score well below the national average as a cutoff for who can get into medical school, I'd say you're weighting that facet of a potential applicant as very very low.

-Ice

P.S. You're also arguing that I have no solution. I've consistently said that if we retain this system, then make those people who get in with lower stats sign contracts to serve the underserved during residency, if that's why they're getting in. Otherwise, use an AA system based on economic status, NOT on race.

 

[ice_23]

Affirmative Action will continue to be necessary until the people who've historically been oppressed can catch up with the people who've traditionally had the upper hand.

When will that be? What will tell us that AA is unnecessary?

-Ice

 

[ice_23]

Dude, GET A LIFE!!!
And will someone please just KILL THIS STINKING THREAD!!

The irony of your post is that by responding, you bump the thread up.

You're not forced to read what's going on in here just as much as I'm not forced to read the "Wayne State Thread" which always gets bumped in the Allo-forum.

-Ice

P.S. Nothing against the "Wayne State Thread."

 

[monstermatch]

The irony of your post is that by responding, you bump the thread up.

You're not forced to read what's going on in here just as much as I'm not forced to read the "Wayne State Thread" which always gets bumped in the Allo-forum.

-Ice

P.S. Nothing against the "Wayne State Thread."

Look, the OP asked a legitemate question and got some good answers. This thread was hijacked long ago by a bunch of politically motivated people who aren't interested in anything other than espousing their own silly views. There is nothing helpful in continuing this argument. Nothing. Thats why I'll reiterate...

KILL THIS THREAD

 

[Giving My .02]

When will that be? What will tell us that AA is unnecessary?

-Ice

Actually, I think it will happen when people stop arguing about it. People in my parent's generation argued about women going to medical school. Now, that hardly rasies an eyebrow.

 

[peach4me]

CAN THIS BE MOVED TO the premed forum!!!! People on the Allopathic forum are not concerned about this !!

 

[MD'05]

The irony of your post is that by responding, you bump the thread up.

You're not forced to read what's going on in here just as much as I'm not forced to read the "Wayne State Thread" which always gets bumped in the Allo-forum.

-Ice

P.S. Nothing against the "Wayne State Thread."

I love how people bring something up and then profess that they are not against that something.

 

[MD'05]

Actually, I think it will happen when people stop arguing about it. People in my parent's generation argued about women going to medical school. Now, that hardly rasies an eyebrow.

Minorities have the admission advantage and I am glad that they do. That's why medical schools are full of minorities.

Now go home and cry because noone cares.

 

[LAZYGUY]

When will that be? What will tell us that AA is unnecessary?

-Ice

When the distribution of minority physicians reflects our population.

I believe most people on this thread have totally missed the point of URMs. The goal initially of the AAMC was not to give minorities an advantage because an "injustice" or disadvantages in their life due to actions of a past generation. The goal is to represent these under-represented populations in medicine because research (and you can look this up on pubmed, this is NOT arguable) shows us that blacks like to be treated by black physicians and hispanics by hispanic physicians. I myself try to understand this and I guess it makes sense that patents may feel more confidence in someone of their own ethnicity and/or race.


-minorities comprise 26% of the total population of the United States, yet only roughly 6% of practicing physicians are Latino, African American and Native American.*


-Black physicians were found to practice in areas where the proportion of Black residents was nearly five times as high as where other physicians practice. Likewise, Hispanic physicians worked in communities with twice the proportion of Hispanic residents when compared to their non-Hispanic colleagues.*


-Nearly half of patients seen by African American physicians and one-third of patients seen by Asian and Pacific Islander and Hispanic physicians are Medicaid or uninsured patients.*


-URM physicians are also more likely than their non-minority counterparts to conduct research to help reduce racial disparities in health care.*


http://www.amsa.org/div/


I agree with issues on both sides and sympathize with the frustrations of some individuals, but ultimately diversity is needed.

 

[OzDDS]

I still think my proposal was still pretty good and a lot better than the current race based system of AA. No one really seemed to give it much thought or critisism though. anyone want to comment?

 

[Giving My .02]

Minorities have the admission advantage and I am glad that they do. That's why medical schools are full of minorities.

Now go home and cry because noone cares.

Grow up please!

 

[Giving My .02]

I still think my proposal was still pretty good and a lot better than the current race based system of AA. No one really seemed to give it much thought or critisism though. anyone want to comment?

We already have a similar program, a lot of rural places have it. You can go practice in their area, and they pay off your loans. The government will never pick up malpractice like you say they will. I think that is going to be more up to the states in placing a cap. You already can notice a trend of physicians avoiding states that have failed to do this, or where a lot of people sue. In addition, most of the physicians are getting sued in what is named "the valley" in Texas. This makes a lot of physicians who wanted to serve this area, now avoid it. Some of the underserved places sometimes shot themselves in the foot like that. I honestly don't think it is about serving the minorities, it is being able to relate to them on their level. For example, I was talking to some third years, and there are women of several cultures at our hospital, who don't want the male medical students delivering them, they would request a female. This happens a lot, to different degrees. I think that is why they are doing what they are doing. Not because there are not enough white physicians wanting to serve, sometimes cultures prevent this from occuring, no matter how much heart someone might have. That's my .02.

 

[OzDDS]

We already have a similar program, a lot of rural places have it. You can go practice in their area, and they pay off your loans. The government will never pick up malpractice like you say they will. I think that is going to be more up to the states in placing a cap. You already can notice a trend of physicians avoiding states that have failed to do this, or where a lot of people sue. In addition, most of the physicians are getting sued in what is named "the valley" in Texas. This makes a lot of physicians who wanted to serve this area, now avoid it. Some of the underserved places sometimes shot themselves in the foot like that. I honestly don't think it is about serving the minorities, it is being able to relate to them on their level. For example, I was talking to some third years, and there are women of several cultures at our hospital, who don't want the male medical students delivering them, they would request a female. This happens a lot, to different degrees. I think that is why they are doing what they are doing. Not because there are not enough white physicians wanting to serve, sometimes cultures prevent this from occuring, no matter how much heart someone might have. That's my .02.

I know what your saying, but my point was that if one of the main reasons of AA was to help service minorities. This would be a better way to 1) ensure (Guarantee) those minorities areas were serviced. 2) more fair and not racist based policy of acceptance.

I know some sort of similar arrangements for loan repayment are already in place. but I'm talking about something a little different. researving spots for applicants to sign contracts (at the same time they receive their acceptance letters) to services certain areas upon graduation. Like the Military but for civilians.

I guess in the case of private health care you get what you pay for if it's coming out of your own pocket, and you should be able to choose who you want doing what. BUT.. if were talking poor minority communities who are getting heathcare taken care of by the government for the most part anyway. You kinda give up that right to pick and choose who you want doing your rectal exam or papsmear. Just my .02 cents.

You can't accomodate everyone all the time.. and you can't correct one wrong in the past by commiting another.

 

[ice_23]

I love how people bring something up and then profess that they are not against that something.

Are you referring to my "wayne state thread" comment? I purposely chose the most innocuous thread to make a point. Apparently this facet of my argument was lost on you...

-Ice

 

[ice_23]

When the distribution of minority physicians reflects our population.

I believe most people on this thread have totally missed the point of URMs. The goal initially of the AAMC was not to give minorities an advantage because an "injustice" or disadvantages in their life due to actions of a past generation. The goal is to represent these under-represented populations in medicine because research (and you can look this up on pubmed, this is NOT arguable) shows us that blacks like to be treated by black physicians and hispanics by hispanic physicians. I myself try to understand this and I guess it makes sense that patents may feel more confidence in someone of their own ethnicity and/or race.

I totally agree with you that this is not a disputable fact. However, should we cater to it? A consumer in the market for a doctor is effectively paying the doctor for his/her services just as much as an employer in the labor market is paying for a particular employee's services. Is it ok for an employer to discriminate based on race or ethnicity simply because they feel more "comfortable" with hiring that employee?

-minorities comprise 26% of the total population of the United States, yet only roughly 6% of practicing physicians are Latino, African American and Native American.*

-Black physicians were found to practice in areas where the proportion of Black residents was nearly five times as high as where other physicians practice. Likewise, Hispanic physicians worked in communities with twice the proportion of Hispanic residents when compared to their non-Hispanic colleagues.*

If we're letting URM's in because they're more likely to serve underserved populations, then make them sign a contract that they'll do just that in residency. Why not use the law to back up this noble ideal?

-Nearly half of patients seen by African American physicians and one-third of patients seen by Asian and Pacific Islander and Hispanic physicians are Medicaid or uninsured patients.*

But Asian and Pacific Islanders are treated differently with admissions compared to African Americans and Hispanics, even though they are serving this particular population just as much. So it would seem that you've fleshed out some hypocrisy with the current system.

-URM physicians are also more likely than their non-minority counterparts to conduct research to help reduce racial disparities in health care.

Agreed here. But is the solution to give URM's a break in admissions and potentially increase racial tensions or to try to educate (like many medical schools have recently attempted) all doctors, regardless of race, to become aware of racial disparities in healthcare? I'd vote for the latter.

-Ice

 

[Whodathunkit]

try to educate (like many medical schools have recently attempted) all doctors, regardless of race, to become aware of racial disparities in healthcare? I'd vote for the latter.

-Ice

Yeah...seems to have worked for you.

It's amazing how people are so vehement and charged about this issue. You'd think someone stole an admissions spot directly from them.

Next time you see one of your URM medical student mates, tell them how you feel about them getting in with mediocre test scores and how you seriously doubt they deserve a space in their class. Better yet, suggest to them that since they got in PURELY because of their race, you expect them to practice with their own kind...since that's the ONLY reason they were accepted in the first place. I'm sure this will go well.

Sometimes it's not the ones that are blatant in their opinions...it's the ones that smile in your face, all the while harboring their true feelings that you have to be careful of.

God Bless this "Anonymous Board"...

 

[Whodathunkit]

I wonder if you guys give this much rat's ass about DO's who ON AVERAGE have lower GPAs and lower MCAT scores on admission, yet are still able to be called doctor and compete for your same residency/fellowship spots when they finish medical school?

Something tells me no.

 

[ice_23]

Yeah...seems to have worked for you.

It's amazing how people are so vehement and charged about this issue. You'd think someone stole an admissions spot directly from them.

Next time you see one of your URM medical student mates, tell them how you feel about them getting in with mediocre test scores and how you seriously doubt they deserve a space in their class. Better yet, suggest to them that since they got in PURELY because of their race, you expect them to practice with their own kind...since that's the ONLY reason they were accepted in the first place. I'm sure this will go well.

Sometimes it's not the ones that are blatant in their opinions...it's the ones that smile in your face, all the while harboring their true feelings that you have to be careful of.

God Bless this "Anonymous Board"...

Do you even read my posts carefully? I have maintained throughout that AT THE MARGIN there exists some set of ORM's/whites that don't get in over a URM because of race. Nowhere did I say ALL URM's get in because of this fact. I've tried to be as careful as possible in my rhetoric to avoid that accusation, but you seem so charged about this issue that you'd like to lump me in with those who harbor extreme beliefs. That's illogical, but it makes it easier for you to attack me. Well done.

-Ice

 

[ice_23]

I wonder if you guys give this much rat's ass about DO's who ON AVERAGE have lower GPAs and lower MCAT scores on admission, yet are still able to be called doctor and compete for your same residency/fellowship spots when they finish medical school?

Something tells me no.

DO's have a much tougher time landing the same sorts of residency spots as MD's due to that fact.

-Ice

 

[MD'05]

Are you referring to my "wayne state thread" comment? I purposely chose the most innocuous thread to make a point. Apparently this facet of my argument was lost on you...

-Ice

Apparently so, genius.

 

[MD'05]

DO's have a much tougher time landing the same sorts of residency spots as MD's due to that fact.

-Ice

That's bullsh*t and you know it. Allopathic residencies are overflowing with DOs. Especially at Allopathic residency programs with DOs as the PDs. Those are the programs where MDs are discriminated against.

This is all so much bullsh*t. Medicine is discriminatory by nature. Everyone and everything must be categorized.

 

[Whodathunkit]

Im sorry....didn't mean to turn this into a possible DO VS MD thread...BTW, only in certain high profile subspecialities, do DO's have a tough time...otherwise, most of the time they are considered on equal ground. You never did anwer my question though?

Forget I said that....for this thread. Don't want to lose sight of what the original argument is...

 

[Whodathunkit]

Do you even read my posts carefully? I have maintained throughout that AT THE MARGIN there exists some set of ORM's/whites that don't get in over a URM because of race. Nowhere did I say ALL URM's get in because of this fact. I've tried to be as careful as possible in my rhetoric to avoid that accusation, but you seem so charged about this issue that you'd like to lump me in with those who harbor extreme beliefs. That's illogical, but it makes it easier for you to attack me. Well done.

-Ice

The first few sentences of my reply were for you.

It's amazing how people are so vehement and charged about this issue. You'd think someone stole an admissions spot directly from them.

Why is it that you care so much??


The rest of the reply was a collective response for everyone else. If it does not apply to you...then it doesnt.

 

[ice_23]

The first few sentences of my reply were for you.

Then I suppose your method of reasoning is to insult me without really looking into my posts?

When have I ever said that I don't care about racial disparities in healthcare or that I am against education of doctors in that arena? I just don't think AA is the way to do it.

You simply wanted to take a jab at someone who disagreed with you.

Why is it that you care so much??

Because I do not think it's a fair way to conduct admissions. However, I AM interested in logical counterarguments which posters like Lazyguy attempted to bring forth. Contrary to popular belief, sometimes one can learn something from an argument, if one doesn't make it into a series of personal attacks...

The rest of the reply was a collective response for everyone else. If it does not apply to you...then it doesnt.

Then I apologize. I naturally thought it was directed at me because I was quoted in your post.

-Ice

 

[ice_23]

That's bullsh*t and you know it. Allopathic residencies are overflowing with DOs. Especially at Allopathic residency programs with DOs as the PDs. Those are the programs where MDs are discriminated against.

This is all so much bullsh*t. Medicine is discriminatory by nature. Everyone and everything must be categorized.

I've heard that MD's get most of the competitive residencies because those residencies don't "have" to take DO's. Perhaps I was mistaken?

And my bad, I didn't mean to insult you by saying that I didn't have to read the "Wayne State Thread". What I meant was that if you don't like/aren't interested in this thread, then you don't have to read it. I wasn't trying to insult anyone. I'll change my example to the "Poker to pay for Tuition" thread.

-Ice

 

[praying4MD]

an underserved area in Austin

 

[Olubalogun]

From one southerner to another (I spent a good portion of my life there unfortunately),

Is it me, or has anyone noticed that there haven't been many current med students reposnding to this thread? Could it be that once you're IN med school, MCAT/GPA stats go right out the window?????

Allow this current MS4 to put his 2 cents in. IN answer to your question, 1path, yes, they do. I know of people with good MCATs who bombed out of med school and those with low stats crushing step1 and getting spots in competitive residencies.

I've been wasting my sunday reading these idiotic posts about "blacks are stoopider than..." and "you are a white devil...." (I know I am generalizing), and I know I can't stop, because its like watching a train wreck. Bottom line people, if you get into med school, you are blessed, but if you believe that your MCAT and undergrad GPA matters more than a pile of steaming horse manouer afterward, you are a ***** who will soon get a big dose of bitter reality. MCAT gets you in, sure, but there is precious little clinical application for knowing what Bernoulli's [sp] principle is, especially when you are delivering a baby (I'm sure that physicists can come up with something, but it doesn't matter).

I'm an African, I had mediocre scores, but I blasted the step and now I will be a specialist surgeon. So to those of you who are sh*ting your respective cows over "unjust this" and "oppression that", just wait. And to those of you argueing incessantly that (using all of your semantic camouflage) blacks are dimmer overall, I hope to GOD that you end up applying to my program. People can find out your identities from these postings, believe you me, and I've heard of careers being damaged over postings like this. Your prejudices will come 'shining' thru.

All of you, turn off your d@mn computers, open a review book, and start studying, because the MCAT is just the beginning.

And (to the AA-haters and AA-lovers), just friggin work hard, and don't waste time worrying over "who took your spot" cause 1) you DON'T HAVE A SPOT TO BEGIN WITH, and 2) its stupid to derail your goals because you want to sit around being a victim. If it is meant to be, it will be (even if you have to apply to all 125 schools or for multiple years).

 

[bigfrank]

Die Thread, Die!!!

 

[docjolly]

Die Thread, Die!!!

 

[phoenixsupra]

So "race in dentistry" gets sent to the everyone forum, but this crap stays here. That makes sense

 

[praying4MD]

Yay for the Bertrand Russel quote.

 

[Braveheart]

New generation of AA debate, somethings never change