Do Minorites have admission advantages?

[OrthoFixation]

Using data form the AAMC website, I posted these stats on page 3 of this thread:

Black acceptance rate = 0.41%
White = 0.52
Native American = 0.28
Asian = 0.48

What's amazing is how many of you chose to ignore these facts.

Let's add the point of contention from AAMC Data

Matriculants 2004:
Race, MCAT VR, PS, BS, TotalWS, GPA Sci, Non-sci, Total
Black,8.3, 8.2, 8.8, 25.3O, 3.22, 3.53, 3.36
Asian, 9.7, 10.7, 10.7, 31.1P, 3.59, 3.71, 3.65
White, 10.0, 10.0, 10.5, 30.5P, 3.60, 3.72, 3.66


AA = Unequal treatment based on race

But hey, it's the Politically Correct thing to do

If you want people to practice medicine in underserved areas, then do what many states currently do at their taxpayer funded schools. Write a contract to that effect. End of story. The rest is just plain BS.


AA will end when the principle is applied to pro and college sports. Then all races will happily support AA's termination.

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[SocialistMD]

i assert that early childhood education is the key for all of these under priviledged children.

I agree (and I, too, am against AA). However, do you have any ideas as to how we can educate the under priviledged children? My girlfriend teaches in an underserved area in Austin, and she fights more battles with the parents as a barrier to the education of her students than anything else. The parents do not place the emphasis on education that many non-underserved-area parents do. The social pressures that come into play later also steer students away from a focus on education, particularly higher education. How do we correct these problems?

 

[visualwealth]

why is this thread still alive?? ahhahaha!! Who freaking cares about AA omg... you guys have no life... Okay so someone got into a school with average stats because they were a minority who cares!! Trust me there are white people with lower stats that get into the best schools... Life is too short to care how others got where they got!! I mean damn we are in our 20's if we are lucky we have 60-80 years left to live...We should all be happy to live in America where if you work hard and play by the rules you can become sucessful... Try doing that in a place like cuba or china...
I am a strong believer in fate, If one is meant to be a doctor they will be one. That is, before you were born it was already known where you would go and what you would accomplish... Thus, what is the point of arguing agaist one's fate?? EXACTLY!!



VISUALWEALTH IS THE FU*KING MAN

 

[1Path]

I have an idea, let's go back in time and bring back an average white and an average black person from 1827. Then, we'll sit them down to take the MCAT, have them write a personal statement, and submit an AMCAS app

How is this even possible when it was AGAINST THE LAW for blacks (in the south where the overwhelming majority of them lived) to KNOW how to read much less sit down and take a test?? You would have been fined or maybe even killed for conducting such a test. Yeah, I think you just may need that 19th century US history lesson after all.

I think the biggest problem in this whole debate is that most of you all are too far removed from what happend in this country in the 1960's with the assinations, lynchings, ect that blacks and other minorities had to face just to go to school with whites, or vote, or use a dam toilet in a public place. So why don't you, especially those with parents /grandparents living in the South, ask them what it was like to spit on a person for trying to integrate a public school, or what it was like to call someone a nig*** to their face, or even dress up in a white sheets and terrorizes people or make a person give up their seat on a bus because of their skin color. The people who comitted these atrocities have to be related to SOMEONE ???

 

[ice_23]

The people who comitted these atrocities have to be related to SOMEONE ???

Bad analogy. If you're allowed to assume someone is going to be "atrocious" just because their ancestors may have been that way then they're allowed to assume that an African-American should be subservient because their ancestors were slaves.

Neither way is right. You need to judge people for who THEY are, not what they're ancestors were.

-Ice

 

[Perrin]

How is this even possible when it was AGAINST THE LAW for blacks (in the south where the overwhelming majority of them lived) to KNOW how to read much less sit down and take a test?? You would have been fined or maybe even killed for conducting such a test. Yeah, I think you just may need that 19th century US history lesson after all.

I was proposing that we kidnap them and bring them to our modern times. It was also a semi-farcicle hypothetical.

I think the biggest problem in this whole debate is that most of you all are too far removed from what happend in this country in the 1960's with the assinations, lynchings, ect that blacks and other minorities had to face just to go to school with whites, or vote, or use a dam toilet in a public place.

Exactly how un-removed are you from this era in our history? How would you comparethe "as you refered to" uneducated blacks to the "as I would say" uneducated whites who perpetrated these obscenities. Most people involved with that racism were uneducated, the victims and the perps. Oh yeah, I would hate to be assinated.

So why don't you, especially those with parents /grandparents living in the South, ask them what it was like to spit on a person for trying to integrate a public school, or what it was like to call someone a nig*** to their face, or even dress up in a white sheets and terrorizes people or make a person give up their seat on a bus because of their skin color. The people who comitted these atrocities have to be related to SOMEONE ???

Well that is down right offensive. My parents and grandparents grew up in the south and they never participated in any racism. So, you would assume that everyone living in the south was a racist. How's that for regionalism and stereotyping. Do you have something against the south?

My point is that the educational difference between blacks and whites is not as extreme as many people would like to believe. There was and still exists a disparity in education. However, I believe that there are enough educational opportunities and government aide available to get everyone to the same level. If you ignore these opportunities, you have no one to blame but yourself.

 

[MD'05]

URM's aren't eligible for federal monies?

-Ice

Not these particular monies. Small business loans specifically.

 

[1Path]

How's that for regionalism and stereotyping. Do you have something against the south?

Do I have problems with the south?? Besides the fact they wanted to keep blacks in slavery?? Besides the fact that it was in the south that 2 of the greatest americans to ever live (Martin Luther King and Pres. John F.Kennedy) we're killed there? Besides the fact that the state which first suceeded (sp?) from the union STILL waves a confererate flag over it's state building? Naw bro, I don't have ANY problems with the South.

Well that is down right offensive. My parents and grandparents grew up in the south and they never participated in any racism. So, you would assume that everyone living in the south was a racist.

And it SHOULD be offensive. What I know for sure is that the white men who beat my grandfather to death AND his brother, my great uncle, MUST be related to SOMEONE on this planet. Now I don't expect that this is still a topic of converstaion at Christmas time any more, although it's my understansding that a group shot which included children, was taken at one of the beatings.

What I want to know is who would admit to lynching a black man, cutting off his penis, and putting it in his mouth?? It reminds me of people I know from Germany whom I've NEVER heard speak of the atoricites THEIR parents/grandparents committed against the jews. NO ONE is going to admit it for fear of being put in jail!

I can admit that blacks sold slaves and had slaves, therby participated in the insitutuion of slavery. Is their anyone else brave enough to face their cultural history??

 

[ice_23]

Not these particular monies. Small business loans specifically.

That's not cool. But I've also seen chinese immigrant families have a hard time with this as well.

-Ice

 

[ice_23]

Do I have problems with the south?? Besides the fact they wanted to keep blacks in slavery?? Besides the fact that it was in the south that 2 of the greatest americans to ever live (Martin Luther King and Pres. John F.Kennedy) we're killed there? Besides the fact that the state which first suceeded (sp?) from the union STILL waves a confererate flag over it's state building? Naw bro, I don't have ANY problems with the South.



And it SHOULD be offensive. What I know for sure is that the white men who beat my grandfather to death AND his brother, my great uncle, MUST be related to SOMEONE on this planet. Now I don't expect that this is still a topic of converstaion at Christmas time any more, although it's my understansding that a group shot which included children, was taken at one of the beatings.

What I want to know is who would admit to lynching a black man, cutting off his penis, and putting it in his mouth?? It reminds me of people I know from Germany whom I've NEVER heard speak of the atoricites THEIR parents/grandparents committed against the jews. NO ONE is going to admit it for fear of being put in jail!

I can admit that blacks sold slaves and had slaves, therby participated in the insitutuion of slavery. Is their anyone else brave enough to face their cultural history??

Why do you insist on conflating people with their ancestors so readily? Why are you so angry with people who have never done anything to you? Just as I would never condemn the brother of a murderer to be a murderer himself so should you not condemn the great great grandchildren of slaveowners to be slaveowners themselves...a lot has changed since then.

-Ice

 

[bigfrank]

Die thread, Die!!!!

P.S. No one's mind is going to be changed.

 

[PanaRama]

Die thread, Die!!!!

P.S. No one's mind is going to be changed.

I regret starting this thread. I think it has gotten out of hand

And sadly only a faithful few have addressed my concerns. Lesson learned-note to self... do not begin anymore threads that have any dealings w/ race, religion, and politics

 

[Perrin]

OK, you are trying to hijack the subject of our discussion. The original discussion concerned the disparities in education amongst groups of people. If you can't stick to the topic at hand, then piss off. I'm not here to answer for the beliefs and motives of people who lived 100 years ago.

G'night

 

[Perrin]

I regret starting this thread. I think it has gotten out of hand

And sadly only a faithful few have addressed my concerns. Lesson learned-note to self... do not begin anymore threads that have any dealings w/ race, religion, and politics

My apologies. I respectfully remove myself from this thread

 

[ice_23]

I regret starting this thread. I think it has gotten out of hand

And sadly only a faithful few have addressed my concerns. Lesson learned-note to self... do not begin anymore threads that have any dealings w/ race, religion, and politics

Honestly, you guys act as if you didn't realize that such a polarized subject would have countless proponents and opponents who feel strongly about either side.

Would you have liked a simple "yes"? Do a simple search for all of the AA threads in any forum, and you would have not only gotten your answer, you would have seen that they typically are long and drawn out.

-Ice

 

[MadameLULU]

OK, you are trying to hijack the subject of our discussion. The original discussion concerned the disparities in education amongst groups of people. If you can't stick to the topic at hand, then piss off. I'm not here to answer for the beliefs and motives of people who lived 100 years ago.

G'night

since you started this thread you can ask one of the moderators (DrMom) to close it.

 

[8744]

How is this even possible when it was AGAINST THE LAW for blacks (in the south where the overwhelming majority of them lived) to KNOW how to read much less sit down and take a test?? You would have been fined or maybe even killed for conducting such a test. Yeah, I think you just may need that 19th century US history lesson after all.

I think the biggest problem in this whole debate is that most of you all are too far removed from what happend in this country in the 1960's with the assinations, lynchings, ect that blacks and other minorities had to face just to go to school with whites, or vote, or use a dam toilet in a public place. So why don't you, especially those with parents /grandparents living in the South, ask them what it was like to spit on a person for trying to integrate a public school, or what it was like to call someone a nig*** to their face, or even dress up in a white sheets and terrorizes people or make a person give up their seat on a bus because of their skin color. The people who comitted these atrocities have to be related to SOMEONE ???

Not this white boy. My parents immigrated from Greece in the early 1950s and had, quite possibly, never even seen a black person until then. There just weren't that many black people in my Father's Macedonian village. My mother is from Athens so she may have seen a black person or two but I doubt it.

My mother's family was chased out of Asia Minor in the 1920s by the Turks who killed many Greeks and confiscated their property.

My grandmother hated the Turks to her dying day (and the Germans, for obvious reasons) but it seems kind of silly for me to hate them in turn. No living Turk today has ever done anything to me except overcharge me for a cab ride in Istanbul. I suppose that there is an off chance that a Turk who murdered some great-uncle of mine is still alive tottering around in his senility but by this time it would be silly to seek revenge.

My mother-in-law, who is from Louisiana, is just too polite and well-bred to have ever spit in anyone's face. I'm sure I have some relatives on my wife's side of the familiy who were, like Senator Byrd, in the Ku Klux Klan but that was a generation ago. The Klan has been emasculated in the South since the early 1970s even though it still survives here and there in fly-blown trailer parks where a lot of episodes of "Cops" are filmed.

Let it go. It is 2005. All of that race-mongering is so Twentieth Century.

 

[8744]

By the way, the Klan was pretty active in Yankee-land, particularly in Illinois and Indiana.

It was also the Republican Party which was "anti-Klan" and considered as big a threat by the Klansmen as Masons, Jews, Blacks, and Catholics.

 

[OzDDS]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Docta
Why not prove the adcoms wrong, and live and practice primary care in the ghetto, instead of complaining that "we should all be treated the same"? .



You know it suddenly got so quiet in this thread that I can hear a rat pissing on cotton!
You know it suddenly got so quiet in this thread that I can hear a rat pissing on cotton!

Honestly.. How many URMs go work their asses off to get through med/dent school and then go work in the Ghetto? Most URMs go to medical school so they can make money to get OUT of the Ghetto. I know some do part-time work there, but most don't set up shop full time in areas like this either. Show me the statistics that prove black students work in "underserved areas" that much more than white or asian students. Also, remember it's not always about black gettos.. What about rural poor "white" communities in like west virginia? This too is underserved!

Also.. I too know many non URMs who work in underserved rural, innercity, and international 3rd world regions.

 

[chak_de_phatee]

Oh stop it with that crap. Immigrants from SouthEast Asia, India, etc. are eligible for federal monies to get started in the US. Mexican's get a kick in the ass.

Really care to explain the money that asian indians qualify for and mexicans don't.

No group of immigrants has it easy we all need to work hard. I should have told my dad about these special grants who washed trucks and my mom who worked at kmart along with the other people (hispanic, asians, blacks and whites etc).


And according to you hispanics have lower average MCAT and GPA scores than others because.

1. Because the southwestern United States (with the exception of Tejas) was stolen from Mexican rancho owners.

2. Immigrants from SouthEast Asia, India, etc. are eligible for federal monies to get started in the US. Mexican's get a kick in the ass.

 

[dave262]

I put that I was black on my undergrad application and TCU gave me a $4000 scholarship for blackness (+extra money for grades) then they took it away once they saw I was white.... rats.

hey how bout those dumb peurto reecans.... whats their excuse?
http://www.aamc.org/data/facts/2004/mcatgparaceeth.htm

 

[skiracer123]

Unfortunately DELCRYS, ICE and others arguing so vehemently against affirmative action have not only explicitly avoided citing any data in their largely inane posts, but moreover – they have missed the point.

The point is (or the points rather – as there are two important ones), that black people get sicker (even when you control for poverty) than do white people and receive a great deal less healthcare.

Black doctors go to work in black neighborhoods much more often than do white doctors.

If you disagree with either of these points, please refer to the following:

Minority Health & Health Disparities Research & Education Act of 2000, 42 U.S.C § 281,

Lisa Cooper-Patrick et al., Race, Gender, and Partnership in the Patient-Physician Relationship, 282 JAMA 583, 583 (1999).

Stephen N. Keith et al., Effects of Affirmative Action in Medical Schools: A Study of the Class of 1975, 313 New Eng. J. Med. 1519, 1524 (1985);

Earnest Moy & Barbara A. Bartman, Physician Race and Care of Minority and Medically Indigent Patients, 273 JAMA 1515, 1517 (1995);

Miriam Komaromy et al., The Role of Black and Hispanic Physicians in Providing Health Care for Underserved Populations, 334 New Eng. J. Med. 1305, 1307 (1996)

Herbert W. Nickens & Jordan J. Cohen, On Affirmative Action, 275 JAMA 572, 572 (1996)

Etc etc etc…


So please, if you have a more effective way to get doctors into underserved neighborhoods, share! Otherwise, accept Affirmative Action as a necessary evil and please stop talking about fairness and slavery and all the rest of the garbage you’ve brought up.

There is a serious public health crisis in this country and AA is the best thing we’ve thought of to deal with it.

 

[OzDDS]

So please, if you have a more effective way to get doctors into underserved neighborhoods, share! Otherwise, accept Affirmative Action as a necessary evil and please stop talking about fairness and slavery and all the rest of the garbage you’ve brought up.

There is a serious public health crisis in this country and AA is the best thing we’ve thought of to deal with it.

I can think of one.. I knew a girl once from a small rural underserved town who wanted to go to medical school, but her family didn't have much money for tuition and she wasn't eligible for any scholarships. She was accepted to medical school eventually and the small "underserved" town from which she was originally from "sponsored" her tuition. In return she signed a contract with that specific town/region to come back and practice for X number of years afterwards.

If you want to service "underserved areas" and "fix the health disparity" be it rural, innercity, etc that are predominantly black, white, brown, yellow.. Whatever it may be. It doesnt matter.. All PEOPLE are in need of your help! Wouldnt it make more sense to accept a small number of people from those specific regions or underserved areas regardless of the color of their skin who want to service those areas.. and are willing to (in exchange for admission to medical/dental school) sign a legal contract to do so.

The US army has done something simlar to this for 50 years and it has worked quite well for taking care of the health and well being of the enlisted. it might work quite well for the civilians of this country as well. Something to think about!

This is a much better plan than racist policies such as AA. It would also much better guarentee that those needest areas had someone looking after them! AA cannot guarentee that those same URMs they admit will go back to service "those desperatly needy areas".

 

[OzDDS]

please stop talking about fairness and slavery and all the rest of the garbage you’ve brought up.

btw.. it was the proponants of AA in this thread that brought up slavery and the like to defend the use of AA. Not the people against AA.

 

[aumed22]

My friend, we'll call him Jason, is black and lived down the street from me. We went to the same great public elementary school, middle school and high school. His parents made more money then most of our friends parents. He went to a decent undergrad (Vandy), and has just now been accepted into Duke Med. His grades and MCAT were alright 3.52 and 29. He told me the other day that he may be able to get some money from Duke. Has Jason been at a disadvantage in any point during his lifetime? Does he really deserve a scholarship from Duke? He will answer both questions with a laugh and then a No.

btw.. it was the proponants of AA in this thread that brought up slavery and the like to defend the use of AA. Not the people against AA.

 

[1Path]

My friend, we'll call him Jason, is black and lived down the street from me. He went to a decent undergrad (Vandy), and has just now been accepted into Duke Med. His grades and MCAT were alright 3.52 and 29

You people are absolutely hilarious. The stats your friend has are respectable for ANY race. But I guess because he's going to Duke with those stats along with the fact that he's black, makes it "wrong".

Would it be OK by you if he matriculated at a lower ranked school instead with those stats?

 

[1Path]

This is a much better plan than racist policies such as AA. It would also much better guarentee that those needest areas had someone looking after them! AA cannot guarentee that those same URMs they admit will go back to service "those desperatly needy areas".

Wake up call to America, NOT EVERY NEGRO IN AMERICA LIVES/IS FROM THE GHETTO!!!!!!!!

Black doctors are more likely to have black patients and new flash to all those who don't know it, Blacks living the the richest suburbs in America are STILL disproportionately affected by diseases like diabetes and cancer. So why in the hell should ALL URM doctors go ONLY to the dam ghetto???

Stupid, stupid, stupid......................

 

[hot hot heat]

You people are absolutely hilarious. The stats your friend has are respectable for ANY race. But I guess because he's going to Duke with those stats along with the fact that he's black, makes it "wrong".

Would it be OK by you if he matriculated at a lower ranked school instead with those stats?

Face the facts. Getting into a medical school that isn't your state school with those numbers will be tough since the numbers are slightly below the national averages for matriculants. It would be tough to get into any medical school with those numbers.

Ii am not saying the numbers are bad, which they aren't, they just don't stand out.

I'm pretty sure being a URM gave him that extra push that allowed him to get a second look to go to a school like Duke.

Is this fair? Being a middle class person, Jason has had all the advantages that his non URM friend has had yet schools are willing to look down on his accomplishments merely because he is black. That is the problem with the system. It demeans the accomplishments of URMs and makes it seem that any URM getting average numbers is a genius when in reality that isn't the case. All you want to do is reward mediocrity.

And in response to how you bring up racism. Please, racism happens to every different ethnic group. Just last week, the LA Times ran a story of asian students getting beaten down by groups of white students because of racial tensions. Oh, but that doesn;t count since they aren't a URM.

Right after 9/11, being a South Asian, I was called a terrorist and told to go home a couple of times. I really didn't even feel safe going out alone at night if I was going to be walking. But that doesn;t count, Im not a URM so none of my experiences with racism count.

The fact is, AA in the admissions process is inherently racist and you can try to convince yourself that it is right since you are getting the unfair advantage.

 

[SocialistMD]

I can think of one.. I knew a girl once from a small rural underserved town who wanted to go to medical school, but her family didn't have much money for tuition and she wasn't eligible for any scholarships.

It's called financial aid.

She was accepted to medical school eventually and the small "underserved" town from which she was originally from "sponsored" her tuition. In return she signed a contract with that specific town/region to come back and practice for X number of years afterwards.

Many such sponsorship programs exist. The state of Texas has one for people going into primary care. I wasn't "eligible" because I have never wanted to do primary care. Where does this policy leave the surgeons, radiologists, anesthesiologists, etc...?

If you want to service "underserved areas" and "fix the health disparity" be it rural, innercity, etc that are predominantly black, white, brown, yellow.. Whatever it may be. It doesnt matter.. All PEOPLE are in need of your help! Wouldnt it make more sense to accept a small number of people from those specific regions or underserved areas regardless of the color of their skin who want to service those areas.. and are willing to (in exchange for admission to medical/dental school) sign a legal contract to do so.

Many schools already do this. Schools that focus on primary care (mainly state schools) tend to take students with less than stellar grades from rural communities in the state under the assumption (as in, there is usually no contract forcing them to do so) that they will go back into their "underserved area," or one like it, as a primary care provider.

This is a much better plan than racist policies such as AA. It would also much better guarentee that those needest areas had someone looking after them! AA cannot guarentee that those same URMs they admit will go back to service "those desperatly needy areas".

I agree. What you are overlooking, though, is that many patients do not relate well to physicians from a different background and vice versa. I know of many instances in which a non-white patient has said (and I quote a specific patient), "That white b!tch had better not be my doctor!" as my friend walked by the patient's room room in the ER on her way to punch in for the day. Likewise, there are many social issues and interactions that I, as a white male, can not understand. While it is possible to work around these types of conflicts, it is much easier on both the patient and the physician if they are both on the same page initially and can relate in a realm other than just as patient-physician.

 

[visualwealth]

Face the facts. Getting into a medical school that isn't your state school with those numbers will be tough since the numbers are slightly below the national averages for matriculants. It would be tough to get into any medical school with those numbers.

Ii am not saying the numbers are bad, which they aren't, they just don't stand out.

I'm pretty sure being a URM gave him that extra push that allowed him to get a second look to go to a school like Duke.

Is this fair? Being a middle class person, Jason has had all the advantages that his non URM friend has had yet schools are willing to look down on his accomplishments merely because he is black. That is the problem with the system. It demeans the accomplishments of URMs and makes it seem that any URM getting average numbers is a genius when in reality that isn't the case. All you want to do is reward mediocrity.

And in response to how you bring up racism. Please, racism happens to every different ethnic group. Just last week, the LA Times ran a story of asian students getting beaten down by groups of white students because of racial tensions. Oh, but that doesn;t count since they aren't a URM.

Right after 9/11, being a South Asian, I was called a terrorist and told to go home a couple of times. I really didn't even feel safe going out alone at night if I was going to be walking. But that doesn;t count, Im not a URM so none of my experiences with racism count.

The fact is, AA in the admissions process is inherently racist and you can try to convince yourself that it is right since you are getting the unfair advantage.

His stats where not great but, you dont know anything about his research / extracurricular thus you cannot judge him as an applicant... GPA and MCAT are not the only criteria used in judging a person (though I wish they were lol)

You *****s pretend that it is only minorites getting into the best schools with low stats!! I would like to post these two mdapplicant profiles to prove that white people also get in with subpar stats...

http://www.mdapplicants.com/viewprofile.php?id=1148
http://www.mdapplicants.com/viewprofile.php?id=438


Quit whinning... about it hot hot whatever your name is... I know that b/c your stats are good you only want people that have equivalent stats to enter the medschool you attend... But, obviously havard, hopkins, yale and other top schools could easily fill their classes with 3.9+ and 40+ MCAT if they wanted to...But, obviously they look at a whole applicant and use other factors to judge them...

 

[dave262]

Since this is a troll thread lets have a little fun....


Blacks wouldnt get so sick if they'd just stop having babies out of wedlock and get a job.


...discuss.

 

[ice_23]

Unfortunately DELCRYS, ICE and others arguing so vehemently against affirmative action have not only explicitly avoided citing any data in their largely inane posts, but moreover – they have missed the point.

The point is (or the points rather – as there are two important ones), that black people get sicker (even when you control for poverty) than do white people and receive a great deal less healthcare.

Black doctors go to work in black neighborhoods much more often than do white doctors.

If you disagree with either of these points, please refer to the following:

Minority Health & Health Disparities Research & Education Act of 2000, 42 U.S.C § 281,

Lisa Cooper-Patrick et al., Race, Gender, and Partnership in the Patient-Physician Relationship, 282 JAMA 583, 583 (1999).

Stephen N. Keith et al., Effects of Affirmative Action in Medical Schools: A Study of the Class of 1975, 313 New Eng. J. Med. 1519, 1524 (1985);

Earnest Moy & Barbara A. Bartman, Physician Race and Care of Minority and Medically Indigent Patients, 273 JAMA 1515, 1517 (1995);

Miriam Komaromy et al., The Role of Black and Hispanic Physicians in Providing Health Care for Underserved Populations, 334 New Eng. J. Med. 1305, 1307 (1996)

Herbert W. Nickens & Jordan J. Cohen, On Affirmative Action, 275 JAMA 572, 572 (1996)

Etc etc etc…


So please, if you have a more effective way to get doctors into underserved neighborhoods, share! Otherwise, accept Affirmative Action as a necessary evil and please stop talking about fairness and slavery and all the rest of the garbage you’ve brought up.

There is a serious public health crisis in this country and AA is the best thing we’ve thought of to deal with it.

Firstly, I have not resorted to ad hominem attacks in any of my posts, so please don't do so with me.

Secondly, many of those who support AA in this thread have either cited anecdotal evidence or tried to rely on sympathy-based arguments (i.e. AA should be enacted to "pay back" for past ills). I've tried to argue how logically that could be applied to other minorities and how lots of people of different races have anectdotal stories that support their respective claims. I fail to see how that's innane.

Thirdly, I have cited numerous times that the MCAT/GPA statistics are higher on average than those of URM's to support my claim that AA lowers the standards for one group relative to another. Once again, I fail to see how these facts are unsubstantiated.

And finally, my argument has been that A.) economic AA would still primarily benefit people of color but not be solely on the grounds of race B.) starting earlier, in elementary schools would be a better focus than starting at the post-undergraduate/undergraduate level where already much of the damage of racism has been done. Just because it's harder doesn't mean that we should settle for something that obviously is polarizing and seems to feed some of the anger that races unfortunately feel for one another.

Finally, when you say "controlling for poverty" does that mean that rich black people are sicker than rich white people?

Just because I disagree with you on AA does not mean that my posts are invalid, just as much as your posts (or anyone else's for that matter) are not invalid to me. I try to answer to as many people as possible in a logical way. I hope you understand that.

-Ice

 

[ice_23]

Quit whinning... about it hot hot whatever your name is... I know that b/c your stats are good you only want people that have equivalent stats to enter the medschool you attend... But, obviously havard, hopkins, yale and other top schools could easily fill their classes with 3.9+ and 40+ MCAT if they wanted to...But, obviously they look at a whole applicant and use other factors to judge them...

So, by the "whole applicant" you're saying that a URM has intrinsically more to offer than an Asian?

-Ice

 

[EvilNewbie]

I thought I would talk a little about my medical school interviews which is over several years ago. I came into an interview at a school and the interview when fine, and the person that interviewed me said that I was a "great" applicant for medical school. I thanked her for her comment and then she said... "too bad you aren't black or disadvantaged"... I was floored! I didn't make a point that I wasn't black or disadvantaged and told that these programs are in place for reasons that the school was appropriate but that I "really" liked the medical school there. I was waitlisted there and never heard from them again... I got into another medical school but it has always haunted me to this day that I didn't get accepted because I wasn't black...

 

[hot hot heat]

His stats where not great but, you dont know anything about his research / extracurricular thus you cannot judge him as an applicant... GPA and MCAT are not the only criteria used in judging a person (though I wish they were lol)

You *****s pretend that it is only minorites getting into the best schools with low stats!! I would like to post these two mdapplicant profiles to prove that white people also get in with subpar stats...

http://www.mdapplicants.com/viewprofile.php?id=1148
http://www.mdapplicants.com/viewprofile.php?id=438


Quit whinning... about it hot hot whatever your name is... I know that b/c your stats are good you only want people that have equivalent stats to enter the medschool you attend... But, obviously havard, hopkins, yale and other top schools could easily fill their classes with 3.9+ and 40+ MCAT if they wanted to...But, obviously they look at a whole applicant and use other factors to judge them...

Using mdapplicnts is probably the worst thing you can do. The site isn't reliable as there is no way to check the credibility of the people who post profiles. What I am going by is the information provided by the AAMC which is verified as well as the study done by the Center For Equal Opportunity.

Why is it that on average URMs get into medical school with lower scores overall. Are you really telling me that all blacks and hispanics have amazing experiences that no white or non URM has ever experienced? Please, that's total BS.

It comes down to the fact that medical schools are willing to let in less qualified applicants of different races. Is it fair that a middle class asian and black person are judged differently even though economically they are the same? Hmm, that's what I call racism in my book. It just happens to be in reverse.

And to about your 3.9 and 40 MCAT thing. People with those stats overwhelmingly get into medical schools. Why is it that the average MCAT score for people attending Harvard is at least a 33 or the people attending Wash U is at least 36. Schools want competent students who will do will in medical school as well as perform well on their board exams.

What you are advocating is that when a URM gets in with lower stats, it is completely fair because of some perceived injustices they MAY OR MAY NOT have incurred while completely ignoring the fact that non URMs and whites may go through the same crap. It's reverse racism and it's wrong. It's wrong to demean the accomplishments of a URM by basuically implying that because they got an average score for most applicants, just because they are black or brown that average score is really good for their race.

Please, that's disgusting and demeaning. It's just that the application process is so competitive that as long as people get their seat, they could care less of any injustices. So please, continue supporting this type of admissions policies since it doesn't hurt you.

 

[Mutterkuchen]

I can think of one.. I knew a girl once from a small rural underserved town who wanted to go to medical school, but her family didn't have much money for tuition and she wasn't eligible for any scholarships. She was accepted to medical school eventually and the small "underserved" town from which she was originally from "sponsored" her tuition. In return she signed a contract with that specific town/region to come back and practice for X number of years afterwards.

I find it amusing that your solution is to have the government just pay people go to underserved areas.

"... I got into another medical school but it has always haunted me to this day that I didn't get accepted because I wasn't black..."
You didn't get in because you were an inferier applicant to the others, not because of your race.

 

[1Path]

you can try to convince yourself that it is right since you are getting the unfair advantage.

Please allow me to clear up a myth in this thread. Any "advantage" I earn from this point on, will most likely be due to the fact that I am an NIH trained scientist, no let me rephrase that, I'm an NIH trainied PUBLISHED scientist and in the world of research, THAT fact is what has schools like Duke, Hopkins, and Harvard wanting to know a little more about me.

The only "affrimative action" that was involved in me earning this spot was that I was given an "affirmative" answer to my question about volunteering for 3 months in a NON paid volunter or "action" experience I used to get to know the people who would make a decision on my appication for a fellowship and help me solidify my career plans. Furthermore, I gave up a high 5 figure job to do this and this children, is called SACRIFICE!!!! This is also called NETWORKING and the last time I checked, people of ALL races do this to advance their careers.

I'm willing to bet that our URM Duke student has some similar outstanding qualities that makes a school like Duke interested in having him matriculate at their school. What many of you need to do accept that fact that even with a 36 MCAT/3.7GPA you're just a run of the mill applicant with NOTHING outstanding in your files. I can tell you that at Hopkins, my white classmates have studied at Cambridge, joined the peace core in Zimbadwe (sp?), and ran clinics for mexican immigrants. In other words, they have outstanding academic records AND life/volunteer experiences which is what these schools are obviously looking for.

So stop whinning, and do something unique so that your application can stand out too, instead of acting like you're ENTITLED to a Duke or Harvard education because of your GPA's and MCAT's.

 

[docjolly]

I'm willing to bet that our URM Duke student has some similar outstanding qualities that makes a school like Duke interested in having him matriculate at their school. What many of you need to do accept that fact that even with a 36 MCAT/3.7GPA you're just a run of the mill applicant with NOTHING outstanding in your files. I can tell you that at Hopkins, my white classmates have studied at Cambridge, joined the peace core in Zimbadwe (sp?), and ran clinics for mexican immigrants. In other words, they have outstanding academic records AND life/volunteer experiences which is what these schools are obviously looking for.

So stop whinning, and do something unique so that your application can stand out too, instead of acting like you're ENTITLED to a Duke or Harvard education because of your GPA's and MCAT's.

Even though I am extremely reluctant to engage in this particular discussion, I have to say that I whole-heartedly agree. 1Path, you couldn't have said it better

 

[hot hot heat]

Please allow me to clear up a myth in this thread. Any "advantage" I earn from this point on, will most likely be due to the fact that I am an NIH trained scientist, no let me rephrase that, I'm an NIH trainied PUBLISHED scientist and in the world of research, THAT fact is what has schools like Duke, Hopkins, and Harvard wanting to know a little more about me.

The only "affrimative action" that was involved in me earning this spot was that I was given an "affirmative" answer to my question about volunteering for 3 months in a NON paid volunter or "action" experience I used to get to know the people who would make a decision on my appication for a fellowship and help me solidify my career plans. Furthermore, I gave up a high 5 figure job to do this and this children, is called SACRIFICE!!!! This is also called NETWORKING and the last time I checked, people of ALL races do this to advance their careers.

I'm willing to bet that our URM Duke student has some similar outstanding qualities that makes a school like Duke interested in having him matriculate at their school. What many of you need to do accept that fact that even with a 36 MCAT/3.7GPA you're just a run of the mill applicant with NOTHING outstanding in your files. I can tell you that at Hopkins, my white classmates have studied at Cambridge, joined the peace core in Zimbadwe (sp?), and ran clinics for mexican immigrants. In other words, they have outstanding academic records AND life/volunteer experiences which is what these schools are obviously looking for.

So stop whinning, and do something unique so that your application can stand out too, instead of acting like you're ENTITLED to a Duke or Harvard education because of your GPA's and MCAT's.

You really have trouble understanding what anyone posts if they are against your opinion.

What I am saying is that URMs IN GENERAL get into medical school with lower over all scores.

This is a fact that is undeniable. Since you're a NIH scientist or claim to be one, I'm pretty sure you can read a table since it is at the AAMC website.

So why is it that URMs are getting in with lower scores IN GENERAL?

Hmm, is it because they all have these amazing life experiences that somehow only URMs can experience which makes them stand out when compared with non URMs and whites?
I highly doubt that. See, that's making a gross generalization about URMs which is bad. URMs are getting treated differently compared to other applicants.

Somehow when a URM scores a 27 on their MCATs, that's fine, but if a non-URM scores a 27, then it isn't. Hmm, different standards for different races. By golly, that's racist. How about we sell cars to blacks/hispanics for 25% more then what we sell cares to whites or asians? That's racism and that's basically what is happening.

Essentially, schools are willing to admit URMs with lower scores because they are URMs. Now this casts a shadow on the accomplishments of the other talented URMs such as yourself, because people will generally believe that you weren't compared to other applicants, only to other URMs.

This is racism, but since it's in reverse it's okay. As long as blacks and hispanics benfit, racism is okay. That is what this process does. It's fine if you support it but basically you support racism. Just admit that and I'll be fine with it. Quit hiding behind your race and claiming that since you are black/hispanic etc you are entitled to getting more consideration for medical school because of your skin.

And please read my entire post instead of focusing on one single sentence and blowing it out of proportion. I really doubt a NIH trained scientist would make such mistakes in interpreting information.

 

[1Path]

So why is it that URMs are getting in with lower scores IN GENERAL?

So I guess black folks on this thread have to answer every question you people pose? Gimmie a break, you've already answered your own questions which puts you on the bipolor side if you ask me!

hot hot heat: Why are minorities getting into med school?

hot hot heat: Because of their race!

hot hot heat: How can that be?

hot hot heat: It's called racism!!

hot hot heat: But it's not fair!!!

hot hot heat: It's called racism!!!

hot hot heat: But I clipped the toenails of asian polar bears during the summer to raise money to pay off my visa card?

hot hot heat: Doesn't matter, it's called racism!

 

[ice_23]

So I guess black folks on this thread have to answer every question you people pose? Gimmie a break, you've already answered your own questions which puts you on the bipolor side if you ask me!

hot hot heat: Why are minorities getting into med school?

hot hot heat: Because of their race!

hot hot heat: How can that be?

hot hot heat: It's called racism!!

hot hot heat: But it's not fair!!!

hot hot heat: It's called racism!!!

hot hot heat: But I clipped the toenails of asian polar bears during the summer to raise money to off off my visa card?

hot hot heat: Doesn't matter, it's called racism!

There's no need to belittle someone in his/her posts. That's just not good style.

Why do you assume that an asian applicant only has numbers and didn't do similar volunteer work in china, india, nepal, zimbabwe or wherever? Do you really think that it is that "whole picture" which makes asian students with high stats less able to get into a particular medical school than URM's? Or could it be that it's just harder for asians to get in because of AA?

And no one said that people are ENTITLED to a harvard education. But everyone should have an equal shot, don't you agree?

-Ice

 

[1Path]

There's no need to belittle someone in his/her posts. That's just not good style.

It's called having a sense of humor. Try it sometime You see I spent the first 10 years of my adulthood mad about all the racial injustice in the world. Then I realized that the ONLY person I was hurting was myself then I decided that it was better for me to keep giving 1000% and just laugh at people who would believe I was inferior and question my credentials becasue of the color of my skin. Besides, laughing releases endorphins, and leads to a healthier life. And I plan to laugh my arse through graduate school, medical school, residency, and beyond!!!

Why do you assume that an asian applicant only has numbers and didn't do similar volunteer work in china, india, nepal, zimbabwe or wherever?

I certainily didn't say ANYTHING one way or another about Asian students and their "numbers'. Perhaps a better question is, why do you assume ALL Asian students HAVE high numbers?? Talk about racist!

You know, it's a funny thing about SDN, once a person's gender/race is revelaed, you guys start throwing in all kinds of stuff into their posts. How does this break down:

An SDN URM is:
Pro-AA
Anti- White student
Anti-Asian student
Pro-Low mcat
Pro-Low gpa
Pro-negro venacular
Anti-Morals
Pro-Welfare checks
Pro-democrat
Anti-Classical music
Pro-Tacos, watermelon, fried chicken or whatever racial stereotype applies

Did I leave anything out?

 

[hot hot heat]

So I guess black folks on this thread have to answer every question you people pose? Gimmie a break, you've already answered your own questions which puts you on the bipolor side if you ask me!

hot hot heat: Why are minorities getting into med school?

hot hot heat: Because of their race!

hot hot heat: How can that be?

hot hot heat: It's called racism!!

hot hot heat: But it's not fair!!!

hot hot heat: It's called racism!!!

hot hot heat: But I clipped the toenails of asian polar bears during the summer to raise money to off off my visa card?

hot hot heat: Doesn't matter, it's called racism!

Ahh, yet again you don't even answer my question or make any attempt to address my points. I've probably struck a nerve because with every post I make that has official evidence, you either scream the race card and past transgressions against your great great great grandfather as evidence that all blacks and hispanics deserve more of a consideration into medical school.

Typical.

It's sad that someone who claims to be an NIH scientist has pathetic reading comprehension.

My claim is this: URMs are getting into medical school on average with lower numbers. That's a fact. Sorry to hurt your feelings, but the average black student getting accepted has lower scores then the average white or asian student.

Sorry to break that to you.

Now the question is, why is that? Are you really trying to tell me with a straight face that all blacks applying suddnely have so many great experiences that no white or non URM can mathc? Please, if you are supposedly a scientist, I fear for the future of this country.

What is happening is that addmissions commitees are looking at URM applicants and are basically saying that URMs are inferior to non URMs and whites and need to be considered on their own.

And you know what, I think you're right. We do need AA in admissions because obviously blacks and hispanics are inferior intellectually to non URMs and whites. They need to be considered on their own because there's no way a black could compete with an asian academically.

Now since most asians aren't as athletic as blacks, as seen by the large proportion of blacks in major league sports, Im going to start screaming that at least 5% of every team roster has to have an asian. Forget about the spot going to the best man, I want diversity even if it means getting an inferior product.

Hurray for mediocrity and admitting that URMs are academically inferior to others. About time the truth came out.

Geez.

 

[ice_23]

It's called having a sense of humor. Try it sometime

I'd rather not if involves degrading someone's opinion. Different strokes for different folks I guess.

Where are you getting this anti-Asian stuff from? I certainily didn't say ANYTHING one way or another about Asian students and their "numbers'. Perhaps a better question is, why do you assume ALL Asian students HAVE high numbers?? Talk about racist!

You know, it's a funny thing about SDN, once a person's gender/race is revelaed, you guys start throwing in all kinds of stuff into their posts. How does this break down:

An SDN URM is:
Pro-AA
Anti- White student
Anti-Asian student
Pro-Low mcat
Pro-Low gpa
Pro-negro venacular
Anti-Morals
Pro-Welfare checks
Pro-democrat
Anti-Classical music
Pro-Tacos, watermelon, fried chicken or whatever racial stereotype applies

Did I leave anything out?

I'm not accusing you of being racist. You seem to be arguing, with this post at least, that people against your stance on AA believe all those things you've just listed. When did I say you were "anti-morals" or "anti-classical music" or "pro-negro vernacular", to name a few of those things? Huh?

As to an error of mine, I thought hot hot hot was referring to an asian applicant with high statistics, so I brought it up.

That being said, the average asian applicant has a higher MCAT/GPA than the average URM. This statistic is documented. I am trying to understand where you're honestly coming from. Do you believe that the average URM gets in because he/she has "more to offer" than the average asian applicant (who is also a minority, and hence, more comparable to URM's than white applicants)?

-Ice

 

[ice_23]

Now since most asians aren't as athletic as blacks, as seen by the large proportion of blacks in major league sports, Im going to start screaming that at least 5% of every team roster has to have an asian. Forget about the spot going to the best man, I want diversity even if it means getting an inferior product.

The only problem with this idea is that it is easy to tell which athlete is better. It is not so easy with being a doctor. Hence any talent I have (including athletics/playing an instrument/bird-watching/pottery-making, etc.) could somehow be construed as being beneficial towards being a doctor and no one could really refute it. Throw "being a URM" in with those qualifications and you've got yourself a debate that goes, unfortunately, nowhere fast.

-Ice

 

[ice_23]

It's called having a sense of humor. Try it sometime You see I spent the first 10 years of my adulthood mad about all the racial injustice in the world. Then I realized that the ONLY person I was hurting was myself then I decided that it was better for me to keep giving 1000% and just laugh at people who would believe I was inferior and question my credentials becasue of the color of my skin. Besides, laughing releases endorphins, and leads to a healthier life. And I plan to laugh my arse through graduate school, medical school, residency, and beyond!!!

Sorry, you edited your post to include the extra paragraph, and I usually try to respond to everything that someone says to me.

I have never doubted your credentials. And I still believe that you should either respect another person's opinion, or if he/she is being provacative, don't respond to the provacative points at all.

-Ice

 

[1Path]

Do you believe that the average URM gets in because he/she has "more to offer" than the average asian applicant (which is also a minority, and hence, more comparable to URM's than white applicants)?

Why is that it that URM's are EXPECTED to speak for the whole dam race of URM applicants applying to med school? How in the heck would I know WHAT anyone other than MYSELF is bringing to the applicant pool and why should I care what the averages are? Do you speak for evey Asian applicant with that "all Asians applying to med school have high stats" crap because if you think you are, you're sadly mistaken. Not every Asian accepted to med school has superior stats.

Speaking of "averages", did you know that the average Asian applicant to med school has a PARENT that's a medical doctor or scientist? That's a hellava admissions advantage as I see it. You're so stuck on "numbers" being the answer that you're blind to the obvious legacy/conncetions that could just as easily be playing a role in the admissions of Asians who are OVERREPRESENTED in medicine.

 

[ice_23]

Why is that it that URM's are EXPECTED to speak for the whole dam race of URM applicants applying to med school? How in the heck would I know WHAT anyone other than MYSELF is bringing to the applicant pool? Do you speak for evey Asian applicant with that "all Asians applying to med school have high stats" crap because if you think you are, you're sadly mistaken. Speaking of "averages", did you know that the average Asian applicant to med school has a PARENT that's a medical doctor or scientist? That's a hellava admissions advantage as I see it. You're so stuck on "numbers" being the answer that you're blind to the obvious legacy/conncetions that could just as easily be playing a role in the admissions of Asians who are OVERREPRESENTED in medicine.

I'm not asking you to "speak for the whole dam race of URM applicants." I'm asking if that's what you believe. If you are in favor of AA enough to argue about it, then you should burden yourself with knowing that sort of information.

Also, where is this statistic that the average Asian applicant to medical school has a parent that's a medical doctor or scientist (at a U.S. university, for the legacy admit idea to hold up)? I am not one who fits that description, but it is an interesting point (although I don't know if it's true).

And if legacy admits were why many Asians get in (as you seem to be arguing), that still doesn't explain why their statistics are significantly higher than that of URM's.

-Ice

 

[1Path]

Also, where is this statistic that the average Asian applicant to medical school has a parent that's a medical doctor or scientist? I am not one who fits that description, but it is an interesting point (although I don't know if it's true).

It was published by AAMC. What, did you really think I pulled it our my arse like so many other folks did in this thread?

And if legacy admits were why many Asians get in (as you seem to be arguing), that still doesn't explain why their statistics are significantly higher than that of URM's.-Ice

Where's the AAMC study that Asians make better doctors because of their higher average stats? When that study gets published and lets face it it NEVER will, then you'll have an argument for the greatness of high stats in the admissions process.

 

[OzDDS]

Many such sponsorship programs exist. The state of Texas has one for people going into primary care. I wasn't "eligible" because I have never wanted to do primary care. Where does this policy leave the surgeons, radiologists, anesthesiologists, etc...?.

Is that what you told the adcoms at your med school interview. Sorry folks, I'm not going to medical school do do anything but interventional radiology? I'm sure they would have loved to hear that.

I agree. What you are overlooking, though, is that many patients do not relate well to physicians from a different background and vice versa. I know of many instances in which a non-white patient has said (and I quote a specific patient), "That white b!tch had better not be my doctor!" as my friend walked by the patient's room room in the ER on her way to punch in for the day..

Do not relate well? Is that what you call it? That is just called racism. How is that ANY different than some White woman sitting a table and saying, "That Ni**er had better not be my doctor!" ? If this happed, you'd be outraged! But the fact that it was a black woman.. oooh.. now its ok to be racist, and everyone runs around trying to come up with ideas on how to accomodate the racist patient. Get a life!!

This is hipocrisy.. Suck it up and deal with it people! Gimmie a fricken break.

Healthcare is not a Right in this country. Be happy you are getting to see a real medically trained physician at all! Personally I don't care who is my doctor male,female, black, white, purple... as long as they were well trained.