Do Dentists Really Make $500k/year?

[macattackDMD]

As a former pre-med now in dental school, my 2 cents:
What your family members think about dentistry WAS true 20 years ago, and is somewhat true now but is in transition. If you look at the official data, reports, and speak to people at the ADA (which I have):
dentistry is becoming wildly saturated: older pple disproportionately support dentistry, and this baby boomer generation is dying off.
A large cohorts of dentists graduated in the mid70s to mid80s (people were saying dentistry is oversaturated), many schools closed. But now many schools have opened, and 6,300 dental school spots per class are being pumped out.
The above ^cohort have been retiring which has kept the numbers constant, but from now till 2040 there will be many more dentists per demand. And working adults nowadays are less likely to pursue dental care regularly ... dentists here will say you shouldn't have to sell if you have good systems (but those pple are also good salesman lol.)
Yes Doctors also need to be salesman but it doesn't determine their livelihood as much.
Yes its become much harder to pursue private practice medicine - it is possible but harder especially the more specialized you are. Dentistry: researchers at ADA believe based on the data that the shift to corporate dentistry and DSO's is largely demographics driven. Dentistry is dominant female and people of color now, and those people are apparently less likely to pursue private practice ownership. That's also a generational thing: younger people aren't as willing to make those sacrifices.

Private dental schools are trading off the perception your family perpetuates to overcharge their students. Like, its very very unethical. They will also be happy to accept anyone in order to fill their class, even people who's application would shock you (badly.) You don't think you deserve to pay 500k? Fine, accept that kid with a 3.1 GPA or the hygenist with a 13 PAT section from the DAT. Seriously ... And once you're in school, exams are very straightforward and simple! so anyone can cram and do well.
I only chose dentistry when I had the stats to show that I could get into cheaper schools (my in-state school effectively told me I was a great applicant.) COVID happened, DAT was delayed, I'm Asian ---> going to an expensive school. There are NO guarentees and you never know how a school that can only accept 3/4% of applicants will look at the apps. I've heard Rutgers just tosses half the apps out the door regardless.

I'll say you should 1.) go to a cheaper school. There are schools besides your state school that are also more cheap. Militairy is also a GREAT option, even if you don't get 4-year you can apply to 3-year as soon as you start school. If you look at the value of their pay + not having to earn to pay debt down, + their training, its a super great option!!! I'm not doing it only cause I want to specialize (otherwise it'd be offensive how much I sacrificed to risk having such little take-home. I also can't move to a unsaturated are b/c lifestyle.)

To pursue dentistry you need to be aboslutely sure you want to have your own practice. Do the militiary route, work for them 3-5 years, save money for 10% of a practice and a bank will fund the rest. Buy or start a practice. There are no guarenteed minimums and its complicated to do this, but you hAVE too.

You make some good points about the benefits of owning a practice, but it isn’t for everybody and the type of ownership is extremely varied. It’s becoming harder and harder for a new grad to just set up shop or to buy a practice outright because corporate groups are buying these older dentist’s practices for 3-4x the actual value. Most people that have success join a multi specialist practice or partner with other dentists l. Less risk and stress. But if you want to work for corporate you can eventually “buy” into that practice also owning 30-40%. So you’d make your salary and then split 30% of the profit of the office. If you do the numbers you realize that adds up quick. Not the best work/life balance but if you’re interested in paying off loans quickly that is a viable option. As you mentioned earlier, the military is another great option.

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[aguyinortho]

No most dentists don't make 500k/yr. If you willing to go into residency which takes another 2-6years, you can make more. However, no medical practitioners average close to 500k/yr. Someone sent me this a while ago, I forgot the source.

Just realize these types of reports included W2 income but not owner distributions.

 

[2TH MVR]

I’m currently an Ortho resident and looking to make anywhere from 250-350 starting salary, based on the jobs my coresidents have gotten the previous years and talking to dental reps (very valuable sources of info because they have an ear in every office in the region). Most of my mentors who are well established in the field make between 600-800k. Some more, some less depending on how many days they work.

The difference between a successful practitioner and average practitioner really comes down to how well you can talk to people. Obviously you have to work hard and be smart, but there are plenty very talented people with great hand skills who never achieve their true financial potential because they can’t talk to/ relate to patients. Don’t focus on the money, focus on providing great dental care and EXPLAINING things to patients. Focus on taking the extra couple minutes to talk to them about their day…believe me it’s worth it. Patients can’t tell and honestly don’t care if they’re a 1/4 cusp class II molar. They notice if you’re real with them and take a genuine interest in them. That is what makes them tell their friends and write reviews. That is what makes the kind of money the “outliers” make. Every single one of the dentists and specialists I know who treat their patients this way have successful practices.

Not saying you are wrong. Being a people person definitely helps, but there are many other economic factors in play. Especially in a saturated area with tons of ortho competition. I used to believe my outgoing personality and treating every patient like a VIP and their referring dentists was the ticket to higher revenue. It worked for many years, but then things changed. For many patients ...its all about the MONEY. Ortho treats mostly younger patients. These are young families who are mostly blue collar and working paycheck to paycheck. To save $500 by going to a different ortho is huge for a young family. The patients who appreciate the positive banter is mostly the older patients which technically makes up a small proportion of your patient pool. Btw. Most of the boomer and older patients are the ones with money. Not the young families.

You want to be successful as an ortho? Be proficient with business, marketing skills. Practice in the right location.

 

[Mauricio45]

It almost feels like there is this pressure and unwritten rule from everyone that you must own. That you're "looked down upon" if you're "just" an associate. No real prestige.

But I've seen plenty of stories on DentalTown about owners who are miserable about staff and business issues. I'd rather have a high-paying associateship position than deal with all that though it's harder to find.

 

[charlestweed]

So the short answer to your question is no, not all dentists make 500k a year. And to be honest, the ones that do, are doing very high volume in bigger practices. And when you get to that level, I feel the quality suffers. It's hard to produce that much dentistry and have the quality be great. There's some real crap dentistry out there in people's mouths.

I made nowhere near this $500k amount during my first 4 years working full time (22-23 days/month) as an associate ortho at the corp offices. It was more like $280-300k/year. And I graduated 20 years ago when there weren’t as many practicing orthos as there are today. I would never reach that $500k/year amount, if I continued to work like this.

My income hit above $500k (but well under $1 million) when I started my first office in 2006…and 3 more small satellite offices (2 are shared with the GP owners) a few years later. It wasn’t because I was lucky nor because I had great business skills that helped double (and nearly tripled on some years) my income. I worked hard...6-7 days/wk. To make that much, I had to keep my associate job at the corp (to maintain a constant positive cashflow) and worked at my own offices on the weekends. Once my offices became busier, I slowly cut down my associate days at the corp. It’s a tough world out there. It’s been 15 years since I opened my first office and they are still not fully booked. There are only enough patients to keep me busy 10 days/month at 4 of my own offices. Until now, I still work 9 days/month for the corp office to fill my 5 days/wk work schedule.

Nothing in life is easy. In dentistry, you only get paid when you sit down and perform the procedures on your patients…..unless your practice has a lot of patients and you hire the associates to do the work for you. It's a simple math. The more patients you treat, the more money you will make. Being good and fast means nothing if you have a poor business skills and your practice doesn’t have a lot of patients. And yes, you have to sell in dentistry. That’s why many ortho and GP practice owners have to make their offices look like a hotel lobby….hiring friendly staff with good people and sale skills….offering free stuff….black Friday specials etc……so they can attract more patients.

 

[charlestweed]

Patients can’t tell and honestly don’t care if they’re a 1/4 cusp class II molar. They notice if you’re real with them and take a genuine interest in them. That is what makes them tell their friends and write reviews. That is what makes the kind of money the “outliers” make. Every single one of the dentists and specialists I know who treat their patients this way have successful practices.

Patients may not care but the referring GPs do. Your work will not only be looked at by the patients but by the general dentists as well. You always have to do good work in order to gain more patient referrals. I am not a sociable person. I usually spend more of my time on patient treatments and less time on talking to my patients. I usually let my chairside assistants to do all the talking for me. Most of my patients are kids…. they tend to be more timid and they talk less than adults.

 

[macattackDMD]

Patients may not care but the referring GPs do. Your work will not only be looked at by the patients but by the general dentists as well. You always have to do good work in order to gain more patient referrals. I am not a sociable person. I usually spend more of my time on patient treatments and less time on talking to my patients. I usually let my chairside assistants to do all the talking for me. Most of my patients are kids…. they tend to be more timid and they talk less

Patients may not care but the referring GPs do. Your work will not only be looked at by the patients but by the general dentists as well. You always have to do good work in order to gain more patient referrals. I am not a sociable person. I usually spend more of my time on patient treatments and less time on talking to my patients. I usually let my chairside assistants to do all the talking for me. Most of my patients are kids…. they tend to be more timid and they talk less than adults.

I’m not saying don’t strive for perfection. Obviously you need to do good work, in any profession. That goes without saying. But if you’re going to keep a patient in treatment for another 8 months to fix a small detail that matters to you because a text book told you that’s “ideal” but the patient has a stable/ balanced occlusion then that’s up to you, but I would think that’s not beneficial to the patient. My point is that good work alone will not make you successful. There’s always a balance between patient management, smart businesses acumen, and excellent clinical work.

 

[LegendaryPanda]

I agree completely. Medical school will give you so many more opportunities at much higher pay and LESS stress.

The ADA reports that an average dentist works 35.7 hours a week.
The AMA reports that an average physician works 51.4 hours a week.

I'm not saying dentistry is easy by any means, but look at the facts.

Lol the average that I've seen from every GP who does not own a practice is around 130-140 a year. As many before have said, you won't break 200k without doing a lot of advanced services over hours most likely longer than 9-5.

Here's my situation as a GP in a non-profit clinic in the Bronx (which if you take on massive debt, like I did at NYU, you'll want to aim for PSLF as your route to getting rid of the student loans)

I make $135k salaried, so that's $3,562 biweekly after taxes (no dependents). My REPAYE amount is likely gonna be around $700 when those go back into repayment in February (it's around 8k if I did a standard 10 year repayment plan). I don't pay malpractice and I get a stipend every year that covers all my CE if I go to the GNYDM lots of days.

Being in private practice, you'll make either $500 a day minimum or 35% of collections and if you work in a medicaid clinic, you'd need to work like a dog to make that $500. Medicaid will pay around $50 total for a limited exam, xrays and extraction. You're taking home around $18 for probably 30 minutes of your time. An exam, checkup and cleaning is around $70, fillings range from $25-$50, and sealants are $20 a piece.

Long story short, that 9-5 500k figure is wildly inaccurate for the average dentist. That's probably for an above average practice owner.

Those salaries are in line with the average GP in NYC that works in a non-profit organization, it's not market pay. You getting paid 135k sounds about right as you're working in a non-profit with medicaid reimbursements. Having worked in a non-profit in NYC, I can attest that their wages are usually lower by 15%-35%. Everyone got paid less, not just dentists. The up side about working at a non-profit is that if you've worked there for 15-25 years, then their insignificant 2-3% raises per year actually add up.

I'm in my third full year of private practice. I work Monday - Thursday 8-5:30 or so, and Friday 8-2:30. I'm a general dentist, working as an associate. I work on 30% production. I do 98% restorative dentistry. I don't do "advanced procedures" such as implants, root canals, extractions, Invisalign, etc. 98% of what I do is fillings, crowns, bridges, restoring implants, and hygiene. It's mostly single tooth dentistry. I get the occasional patient that wants to do some smile makeover stuff. I had a patient this year where we did an entire upper arch of crowns. Those can be equal parts fun and stressful, though. The rest of the procedures usually get referred to the specialists. My schedule could be busier - I have white spots here and there.

I work in a saturated market in the suburbs of Boston.

This year, my gross earnings on my W2 will likely be $170,000. I leave production on the table by not doing the "advanced" procedures, but they're also stressful to do. And speaking of stress, don't think dentistry isn't stressful. It's very stressful. Working on a patient that's awake, that likely doesn't want to be there, that's paying a lot of money for you to do good work, while you're hunched over them, is very stressful.

But the biggest contributing factor to my income is the fact that dental insurance companies are robbing us. We're only in network with 2 insurance companies, and that has us writing off 30% of production for those patients. The dream is to drop insurance companies and go fee for service.

I'm looking to a buy a small private practice soon, and hope to work 4 days a week and make 200k a year. We'll see what happens.

So the short answer to your question is no, not all dentists make 500k a year. And to be honest, the ones that do, are doing very high volume in bigger practices. And when you get to that level, I feel the quality suffers. It's hard to produce that much dentistry and have the quality be great. There's some real crap dentistry out there in people's mouths.

This.

 

[Screwtape]

I'm in my third full year of private practice. I work Monday - Thursday 8-5:30 or so, and Friday 8-2:30. I'm a general dentist, working as an associate. I work on 30% production. I do 98% restorative dentistry. I don't do "advanced procedures" such as implants, root canals, extractions, Invisalign, etc. 98% of what I do is fillings, crowns, bridges, restoring implants, and hygiene. It's mostly single tooth dentistry. I get the occasional patient that wants to do some smile makeover stuff. I had a patient this year where we did an entire upper arch of crowns. Those can be equal parts fun and stressful, though. The rest of the procedures usually get referred to the specialists. My schedule could be busier - I have white spots here and there.

I work in a saturated market in the suburbs of Boston.

This year, my gross earnings on my W2 will likely be $170,000. I leave production on the table by not doing the "advanced" procedures, but they're also stressful to do. And speaking of stress, don't think dentistry isn't stressful. It's very stressful. Working on a patient that's awake, that likely doesn't want to be there, that's paying a lot of money for you to do good work, while you're hunched over them, is very stressful.

But the biggest contributing factor to my income is the fact that dental insurance companies are robbing us. We're only in network with 2 insurance companies, and that has us writing off 30% of production for those patients. The dream is to drop insurance companies and go fee for service.

I'm looking to a buy a small private practice soon, and hope to work 4 days a week and make 200k a year. We'll see what happens.

So the short answer to your question is no, not all dentists make 500k a year. And to be honest, the ones that do, are doing very high volume in bigger practices. And when you get to that level, I feel the quality suffers. It's hard to produce that much dentistry and have the quality be great. There's some real crap dentistry out there in people's mouths.

This just isn’t true as a general rule. I would possibly agree if you are only talking about associates… my partner and I are both in this fabled range of $500K+ (not including my practice loan repayment). We are in-network with two insurances who both reimburse decently-not great-but decently (over $1000 for a crown, not including a build up). Add a small percentage of FFS, several hygienists, and you do the math. $500K+ isn’t that hard as an owner in a practice where fees are reasonable. The quality of work is high, the volume is medium. Hygiene is always booked, I’m pretty steady but have holes too. Bread and butter single tooth dentistry. We both do some Invisalign. These types of practices are very common in many areas and states. Maybe not major metros… But when I was looking at practices I found several like mine. Obviously I pre-screened the bad ones out first. I’m in an area of about half a million people with major metros a few hours away. Not rural to me.

 

[allDAT]

Don’t spend 600-700k to become a dentist. Go to a cheaper school or don’t go.

Lots of comments already that provide good insights so I won’t reiterate them.

 

[D1Bound]

If you live in a somewhat rural place you can absolutely make 500k. Now, I have no idea how quickly this can be done. I do know dentists that make a killing working in "undesireable" areas. Just go on indeed and look for job openings for dentists. They make a ton.

 

[allDAT]

If you live in a somewhat rural place you can absolutely make 500k. Now, I have no idea how quickly this can be done. I do know dentists that make a killing working in "undesireable" areas. Just go on indeed and looking job openings for dentists. They make a ton.

Dentists do well, but not as well as the op seems to be hoping.

Most dentists are paid a % of collections only. So if there’s no production on the schedule, you get paid $0, if there’s production on the schedule, you’ll get a % of what’s collected. The ads on indeed are often “guesses” and they’re often inflated to draw leads (it’s an advertisement after all). For example, a big corp often has ads with a salary range of 160-390k or something like that but that’s not actually a salary..”it’s your potential” which is often BS.

You’ll make 390k if produce enough to collect around 1.5 million for a corp in a top tier major metro. Maybe 1.3 million in a corp in a 2nd tier metro. Corps often take all insurances regardless of reimbursement so producing enough to collect 1.5 M is often unmanageable when HMOs and the worst PPOs are involved.

Average dental offices collect less than 700k. Average overhead as is around 67% but drops down quite a bit in an owner operated office collecting north of 1.2 million…but you have to take on the debt to buy or build the office which drags down a dentists net income until the note is paid off (usually 10 years).

There are outlier on both ends of the spectrum (as with every job).

 

[D1Bound]

Dentists do well, but not as well as the op seems to be hoping.

Most dentists are paid a % of collections only. So if there’s no production on the schedule, you get paid $0, if there’s production on the schedule, you’ll get a % of what’s collected. The ads on indeed are often “guesses” and they’re often inflated to draw leads (it’s an advertisement after all). For example, a big corp often has ads with a salary range of 160-390k or something like that but that’s not actually a salary..”it’s your potential” which is often BS.

You’ll make 390k if produce enough to collect around 1.5 million for a corp in a top tier major metro. Maybe 1.3 million in a corp in a 2nd tier metro. Corps often take all insurances regardless of reimbursement so producing enough to collect 1.5 M is often unmanageable when HMOs and the worst PPOs are involved.

Average dental offices collect less than 700k. Average overhead as is around 67% but drops down quite a bit in an owner operated office collecting north of 1.2 million…but you have to take on the debt to buy or build the office which drags down a dentists net income until the note is paid off (usually 10 years).

There are outlier on both ends of the spectrum (as with every job).

I guess the answer to a cool 500k starting salary would be OMFS.

 

[HMI]

I have heard from numerous family members that I should pursue dentistry. They say it is a 9-5 job where you make $500k a year with a stress-free life. Is this true? Would I have to open my own practice in the middle of nowhere to reach this income? They make it seem as if I will live this life in my mid 30's, which I feel is highly unlikely. I do want to become a dentist because of the ability to help people, but I was a bit hesitant seeing the insane tuition for dental school. I was under the impression that dentists made 2-300k, from which a massive chunk would be taken for student loan tuition for the first ten years. I expect to be in 600-700k of debt once I would exit dental school.

Not in Southern California unless you own multiple practices which are actually profitable (requires good team from your OM to your DA/RDA and good associates and more importantly enough paying patients ), but from experience I can tell you that is very hard to achieve simply due to saturation; there won't be enough patients and procedure to generate enough revenue to be profitable. I am down to owning one practice (used to be three) and in my good year I have netted $270K and bad year around 130K (due to covid) from my singe practice, this year will be $200-210K (I keep my overhead around 55%, I have cut down my assistants from two to one, one day out of the week I work by myself and my OM only), I am in Orange County, CA, one of the most saturated areas to be. Having said that, I have classmates (general dentists) that are clearing around $700K in CENTRAL CALIFORNIA where there is a need for dentists. But they mainly see medicaid patients and on average see 60-80 patients a day with 2-3 Drs working at the same time, but not everyone is cut out for that type of fast pace/heavy volume practice and living and working in cities where no one wants to be. The way I see it, dentistry is not a wise choice as a career anymore ( they just opened a new dental school in CA as if there's a shortage of dentists), every year you have to drop your prices to stay competitive, patients don't value our profession anymore and always bargain for lower prices and so on. It is becoming a lot more difficult, I honestly feel less confident in my financial outlook each year compared to previous years , and I have not even gone over the cost of becoming a dentist and owning a practice ( just more loans IF you can get them) or the negative effect of student loan on your borrowing power (house mortgage or office loan). I know there will be dentists on this forum telling you study hard and go to a cheap dental school, but there are none anymore, I went to UCSF ( public school) and that still costed $280k, that was 12 years ago, I know dentists who graduated from same school three years ago owing $400K, I'm sure it is more now (do not believe me, check their website). If you are considering dentistry, you need to look at averages and norms, not exceptions. Specializing helps but not all the dental specialties are created equal and even they have to make changes now (traveling to different offices and so on)(Endo and Oral surgery are the one to consider). All I can say is that my son will not become a dentist, I will not let that happen. I don't know how things are in other states for dentists.

 

[howdoiknow]

The ADA reports that an average dentist works 35.7 hours a week.
The AMA reports that an average physician works 51.4 hours a week.

I'm not saying dentistry is easy by any means, but look at the facts.


Those salaries are in line with the average GP in NYC that works in a non-profit organization, it's not market pay. You getting paid 135k sounds about right as you're working in a non-profit with medicaid reimbursements. Having worked in a non-profit in NYC, I can attest that their wages are usually lower by 15%-35%. Everyone got paid less, not just dentists. The up side about working at a non-profit is that if you've worked there for 15-25 years, then their insignificant 2-3% raises per year actually add up.

This.

Does it break it down by specialty? A surgeon can be working 60 hours for $400k while a psych is doing 30 for 300k. These averages can be very misleading. If we only looked at averages very few people would go into dermatology because they "only" make $398k. But when you look closer you'll see they're working 8-3 and averaging ~$250-$300/hr. If one squeezed in more patients 8-5 5 days a week they'd make $650k not including practice ownership or straight up cash cosmetics. Neurosurg may average $800k but they're working 2-2.5x derm hours, spend 5+ extra years in residency and its a hell lot more stressful.

It's much better if we can break it down by $/hr. For example, emergency docs in my region energency med docs make $225/hr and $275+ in the boonies (45-60 minute drive from here). These were numbers given to us by our faculty and former alumni who hold such jobs (hella transparent). Meanwhile, family docs are closer to $150/hr. At the same time you could say EM is more stressful but for some people they may prefer working 36 hrs vs 45-55 with tons of charting.

 

[luisfigo]

I expect to be around that mark in a couple years, I'm 6 months out and if I had bought in already I'd have made 30k last month and that's without having a second assistant for most of the time and just getting back into doing endo after some hiccups; now i'm pretty much humming along with endo and I'm about to start my first invisalign case, and I plan on adding some implants to my repertoire. I believe it's doable, but as others have said sometimes you gotta land in the right place. I stand on the shoulders of giants.

 

[charlestweed]

I guess the answer to a cool 500k starting salary would be OMFS.

Yup, that’s the reward the OS’s get for their hard work and sacrifice (for being the top students in their dental class and for working like a slave during their 4-6 years OS residency training). Nothing in life is easy. If you want to be successful, you need to work hard.

 

[gryffindor]

It almost feels like there is this pressure and unwritten rule from everyone that you must own. That you're "looked down upon" if you're "just" an associate. No real prestige.

But I've seen plenty of stories on DentalTown about owners who are miserable about staff and business issues. I'd rather have a high-paying associateship position than deal with all that though it's harder to find.

No, you don't have to own.

But you (general you) also can't complain that your boss doesn't allow you to order this and that, you don't agree with his/her treatment plans, his/her staff suck, you think you deserve a raise. The only way to fix most of those issues is to either find a better associate job or start your own. Some people choose to bounce around and look for that better job. Some people like myself choose to say f-this and get out there and own. When I finished residency, there were not many "good" jobs in my specialty and almost no practices for sale in my location so I chose to start up than wait for something to come around. I decided that I would rather sit around and wait for the phone to ring than do less-than-ideal orthodontics in other offices.

You can ask for a raise, but you should be prepared to show why you deserve one. Some associates think they should get a raise just because and it doesn't work that way in dentistry.

 

[Katzen7]

Yup, that’s the reward the OS’s get for their hard work and sacrifice (for being the top students in their dental class and for working like a slave during their 4-6 years OS residency training). Nothing in life is easy. If you want to be successful, you need to work hard.

Also, no...OMS does not start at a "cool 500k," try $250-300k starting.

Like every other area of dentistry, you are an associate and making a percentage of collections. You need to produce to make the money, not just show up. And all the same problems apply - most owners aren't truly ready for an associate, they expect you to go out and get the referrals. No walk in the park there.

 

[D1Bound]

Also, no...OMS does not start at a "cool 500k," try $250-300k starting.

Like every other area of dentistry, you are an associate and making a percentage of collections. You need to produce to make the money, not just show up. And all the same problems apply - most owners aren't truly ready for an associate, they expect you to go out and get the referrals. No walk in the park there.

I just spoke with a soon to be OMS. HIs job offer: base salary 350k and the sky is the limit for production. He will easily clear 500k if not hit 800k his first year out. I just don't see a snowball's chance that an Oral and Maxillofacial surgeon would be only making 250k with 3rds being so profitable.

 

[charlestweed]

Also, no...OMS does not start at a "cool 500k," try $250-300k starting.

Like every other area of dentistry, you are an associate and making a percentage of collections. You need to produce to make the money, not just show up. And all the same problems apply - most owners aren't truly ready for an associate, they expect you to go out and get the referrals. No walk in the park there.

Yes. Like other dental specialties, the OS’s have to work on the patients in order to get paid. More patients you treat = more money you will make. Nobody pays you for sitting around doing nothing. Nothing in life is easy. There are plenty of places (busy private GP offices and corp offices) that hire OS’s to come to work in their offices a couple of days a month. The daily pays at these places are usually much better than working for (or partnering with) another OS owner. The corp office, where I am at, hires an OS to work there 2 days a month. And each day is at least a $10k production day for that OS. To reach the $500k amount, the OS’s have to travel to work at multiple offices. We, orthodontists, have to do the same. Currently, I travel to work at 6 different offices (4 are my own and 2 are corp offices). My wife used to travel to as many as 9 offices. Most specialists I know have to travel.

Edit: The jobs for OS are in high demand. According to this thread, OMFS job search, there are places that actually pay the potential associate OS's the hotel cost and other traveling expenses when they fly to other states for job interviews. There is no such generous offer for ortho. I remember when I flew back home for my very first job interview at Western Dental, the corp manager didn't even show up to interview me. And this was 20 years ago, when the jobs for ortho were also in high demand.

 

[LegendaryPanda]

Does it break it down by specialty? A surgeon can be working 60 hours for $400k while a psych is doing 30 for 300k. These averages can be very misleading. If we only looked at averages very few people would go into dermatology because they "only" make $398k. But when you look closer you'll see they're working 8-3 and averaging ~$250-$300/hr. If one squeezed in more patients 8-5 5 days a week they'd make $650k not including practice ownership or straight up cash cosmetics. Neurosurg may average $800k but they're working 2-2.5x derm hours, spend 5+ extra years in residency and its a hell lot more stressful.

It's much better if we can break it down by $/hr. For example, emergency docs in my region energency med docs make $225/hr and $275+ in the boonies (45-60 minute drive from here). These were numbers given to us by our faculty and former alumni who hold such jobs (hella transparent). Meanwhile, family docs are closer to $150/hr. At the same time you could say EM is more stressful but for some people they may prefer working 36 hrs vs 45-55 with tons of charting.

Yes, it's done by the AAMC, but they're not gonna be what you're expecting. Even derm and psych averaged something like 43-45 hours a week.

 

[Sublimazing]

A lot of people who know very little about dentistry in these comments lol. I would recommend getting on Dentaltown and talking to actual dentists. My significant other is a dentist and I can confirm that several dentists who he is friends with/were in his graduating class are making this much (and more). Not as associates, however. These people own their own businesses. For example, the dentist he works for makes ~600k-700k a year as an owner. As an associate, you’re typically making ~30% of production. However, as an owner, you’ll obviously be making more and also pocketing what the hygienists produce which can make a big difference. Definitely go on Dentaltown, though. I’m sure they can give you more info than anyone here.

You can talk to those Dentaltown guys about money, marketing, and business stuff…but for the love of god don’t go into the oral surgery forum. It’s a bunch of boomers do half ass’d dental alveolar surgery and cheering one another on.

 

[TanMan]

There were people accepted into my class 21 years ago with these stats. A state school that cost $100K total including living expenses. Back when dental school was really uncool and super cheap. Medical school was the place to be.

I have to laugh when I read these threads. I went into dentistry to live a solid part-time life. Yes I'm a woman but I also own my practice because if you're a driven individual, working for someone else sucks. I don't know who all these people are looking to be associates forever or work for DSOs just to collect a paycheck. I would seriously quit if I had to have a boss again. This job sucks if you don't have complete control over what you do, unless you can close your eyes and be borderline unethical to do whatever you must for a paycheck.

If you don't feel up for joining the 6 days/week club when you graduate with 600K in debt, you should not be thinking about dental school.

It's not about the number of days you work. It's about the productivity per hour.

It almost feels like there is this pressure and unwritten rule from everyone that you must own. That you're "looked down upon" if you're "just" an associate. No real prestige.

But I've seen plenty of stories on DentalTown about owners who are miserable about staff and business issues. I'd rather have a high-paying associateship position than deal with all that though it's harder to find.

Dentaltown is full of depressed dentists and salespeople. But yeah... if you're a low paid associate, you're looked down upon by the community in general. If you're highly paid, people think you're either overpaid, busting your @ss, and/or unethical. You can't win.

I'm in my third full year of private practice. I work Monday - Thursday 8-5:30 or so, and Friday 8-2:30. I'm a general dentist, working as an associate. I work on 30% production. I do 98% restorative dentistry. I don't do "advanced procedures" such as implants, root canals, extractions, Invisalign, etc. 98% of what I do is fillings, crowns, bridges, restoring implants, and hygiene. It's mostly single tooth dentistry. I get the occasional patient that wants to do some smile makeover stuff. I had a patient this year where we did an entire upper arch of crowns. Those can be equal parts fun and stressful, though. The rest of the procedures usually get referred to the specialists. My schedule could be busier - I have white spots here and there.

I work in a saturated market in the suburbs of Boston.

This year, my gross earnings on my W2 will likely be $170,000. I leave production on the table by not doing the "advanced" procedures, but they're also stressful to do. And speaking of stress, don't think dentistry isn't stressful. It's very stressful. Working on a patient that's awake, that likely doesn't want to be there, that's paying a lot of money for you to do good work, while you're hunched over them, is very stressful.

But the biggest contributing factor to my income is the fact that dental insurance companies are robbing us. We're only in network with 2 insurance companies, and that has us writing off 30% of production for those patients. The dream is to drop insurance companies and go fee for service.

I'm looking to a buy a small private practice soon, and hope to work 4 days a week and make 200k a year. We'll see what happens.

So the short answer to your question is no, not all dentists make 500k a year. And to be honest, the ones that do, are doing very high volume in bigger practices. And when you get to that level, I feel the quality suffers. It's hard to produce that much dentistry and have the quality be great. There's some real crap dentistry out there in people's mouths.

High volume is relative. What may be high volume to you may not be to another. I try not to disparage others and assume that people do crap dentistry when they are making a lot of money. In a few years, you may find that you got way faster and that the 3 year old (in practice), you were not as skilled as when you have 10 years of practice. I always tell others not to set your bar so low. It is these mental barriers that prevent us from performing optimally.

Setting low goal posts may help lower our expectations and avoid disappointment, but it also reduces our drive to aim for the stars.

 

[Mauricio45]

No, you don't have to own.

But you (general you) also can't complain that your boss doesn't allow you to order this and that, you don't agree with his/her treatment plans, his/her staff suck, you think you deserve a raise. The only way to fix most of those issues is to either find a better associate job or start your own.

It's best to find an associateship where you're the only dentist in the office and owner is hardly (if ever) there. That is a good political situation to be in. Hard to find though. I currently have that with my associateships. I love it. No one ever bosses me around or tells me what to do or how to tx plan things.

Rarely does it work out when two or more dentists get along with each other. We dentists are too territorial or arrogant to work in close harmony.

 

[gryffindor]

It's not about the number of days you work. It's about the productivity per hour.

Yes, but only someone who has been in the trenches and figured out how to be productive understands this. Anyone graduating with a $4500/month loan payment is most likely not working 3 days/week those first few years.

 

[charlestweed]

Yes, but only someone who has been in the trenches and figured out how to be productive understands this. Anyone graduating with a $4500/month loan payment is most likely not working 3 days/week those first few years.

Having large amount of debt should help motivate a person to work harder. All of the successful dentist owners I know (and I know a lot of them because they are my referring dentists and my wife’s friends) don’t have rich parents who help them. They all graduated with debts. They all had to take out loans to set up their practices. They all had worked very hard when they first opened their practices. Practicing in a competitive market like SoCal is not easy.

If you are good and fast, you can see 2-3x more patients per day and produce 2-3x more per day than your slow colleague. And if you work 6 days a week, your income will be 4-6x higher than the same unmotivated colleague, who only works 3 days/wk. If you can make $45,000 a month, then having a $4500/month loan payment should not be a huge issue. With this income, you can easily pay the entire student loan amount off in 3-4 years. You can semi-retire and only need to work 2-3 days/week when you are in your mid to late 30s….assuming that you went with the traditional route: started dental school at 22 and started working at 26 or 29 (if you spent 3 additional yrs to specialize).

Work hard when you are young and healthy, when you have no kid to support or have kids but they are still very small. Don’t waste your youth years sitting around doing nothing at home…and getting fat. Nobody respects a lazy and broke person, even if this person has an advanced degree like DDS or MD. Waking up every day thinking about work and thinking about paying bills sucks. Don’t be a slave to the banks. Don’t be like some of the 60-65 yo dentists who still have to work full time because they realize they haven’t been able to save enough for their retirement. Getting out of debt ASAP is the key to happiness in life. And one of the ways that you can achieve this….that is within your reach….that you can control is your work ethic.

 

[Rube]

I am an owner who employs one part time dentist. 60% of owners are making 160-210k. There are 25% making 250-300 and a small few making 500k. I'd say most that are making 300- 500k are outliers clinically or FFS or they employ mulitiple docs.

If you take insurance (in network) you're going to have a very hard time breaking above 200k in most parts of the country as a solo doc.

 

[howdoiknow]

I am an owner who employs one part time dentist. 60% of owners are making 160-210k. There are 25% making 250-300 and a small few making 500k. I'd say most that are making 300- 500k are outliers clinically or FFS or they employ mulitiple docs.

If you take insurance (in network) you're going to have a very hard time breaking above 200k in most parts of the country as a solo doc.

Was there an opportunity cost in becoming an owner? IE did you "waste" time sitting around your office and how much would you have made during that time working as an associate elsewhere (assuming $120-$150/hr). How much was the capital investment in your office and how many years did it take you to "break even" had you just stayed an associate?

 

[PerioDont]

I am an owner who employs one part time dentist. 60% of owners are making 160-210k. There are 25% making 250-300 and a small few making 500k. I'd say most that are making 300- 500k are outliers clinically or FFS or they employ mulitiple docs.

If you take insurance (in network) you're going to have a very hard time breaking above 200k in most parts of the country as a solo doc.

What is your source for 60% of owners making that amount? I know many associates that make just a bit less than that

 

[TanMan]

I am an owner who employs one part time dentist. 60% of owners are making 160-210k. There are 25% making 250-300 and a small few making 500k. I'd say most that are making 300- 500k are outliers clinically or FFS or they employ mulitiple docs.

If you take insurance (in network) you're going to have a very hard time breaking above 200k in most parts of the country as a solo doc.

I can say that this is a largely false statement. In network may mean lower reimbursements, but the idea of having a very hard time breaking 200k net profit, even post-tax, is absolutely ridiculous. The tradeoff with in network status is higher volumes. I say this as a solo doc and what I know of other solo docs. If you're not able to ramp up production speed, then you may face the dilemma/scenario that you propose.

Yes, but only someone who has been in the trenches and figured out how to be productive understands this. Anyone graduating with a $4500/month loan payment is most likely not working 3 days/week those first few years.

This is why I emphasize learning to become productive during dental school, and not after graduation. Also, it's important for dental students to understand that dental school is safe mode... safe but unproductive/unrealistic. Learning the real world way of doing things is essential to pay off that debt (not that I would advocate doing it quickly), but instead, focusing on opening your own office. The rates of return are significantly higher. I sincerely believe that people who don't want you to become an owner are those that want to keep you as an associate.

 

[Rube]

The ADA says most solo GPs make about 175.. I think most solo docs probably fall into this 160-200 range. I make more than this on 4 days. I know of 3 dentists that have failed-- I don't think they were cut out for owning a business. A lot depends on where your practice is located, how insurance dependent it is, how you treatment plan and what kind of clinician and business person you are. I'd say there are a decent chunk that make 300. Are we saying net after debt service? I think an annual gain of 50 or 60k equity should be considered.

 

[Rube]

Was there an opportunity cost in becoming an owner? IE did you "waste" time sitting around your office and how much would you have made during that time working as an associate elsewhere (assuming $120-$150/hr). How much was the capital investment in your office and how many years did it take you to "break even" had you just stayed an associate?

A little, but I never had time to sit around. I bought a well performing practice and struggled the first 3 months with some business related aspects. It cost me real money. After I figured things out I began to be more profitable and added 400k in production over 3 years.

Most owners go through some bumps in the road, for me it was making sure your staff doesn't take advantage of you and works hard for you. I inherited an OM who had a part time issue with alcohol and pills. It took me a while to realize what was going on with her. She was hiding what she wasn't doing-- my aging was out of control. I didn't know what I didn't know until I did. Eventually I realized I was vunerable because she knew how to do things no one else did. I had to figure out how to live without her before I fired and replaced her. I don't like the OM/ queen bee position. They can hold owners hostage. I now have team leads which are much better.

 

[yappy]

I sincerely believe that people who don't want you to become an owner are those that want to keep you as an associate.

100% agree. People want to employ dentists to make money off of of them. To me it makes zero sense; work for me at a low percentage of production. Ill take care of the business side of things because ownership is too hard.
*proceeds to hire high school graduate to run the office*

They’re talking out of both sides of their mouth. Running a dental office is easy, default rates are less than 1%. Aside from the lower percentage by remaining an employee or associate, consider that as an owner you will also have an asset.

The #1 bad business decision that dentists make is working for someone else long term.

 

[TanMan]

The ADA says most solo GPs make about 175.. I think most solo docs probably fall into this 160-200 range. I make more than this on 4 days. I know of 3 dentists that have failed-- I don't think they were cut out for owning a business. A lot depends on where your practice is located, how insurance dependent it is, how you treatment plan and what kind of clinician and business person you are. I'd say there are a decent chunk that make 300. Are we saying net after debt service? I think an annual gain of 50 or 60k equity should be considered.

Net after debt service and taxes. These salaries are often really skewed since owners tend to give themselves really low salaries and high distributions. Unfortunately, I had to give myself a significant raise in salary due to the huge discrepancy (aka audit risk) with taking a mediocre salary (2.5x my original salary). Even then, I'm not a member of the ADA nor do I participate in these surveys. Another theory I have is that those that have time to fill out income surveys probably don't have enough patients to have the time to fill out these surveys, lol.

 

[periopocket]

It's not about the number of days you work. It's about the productivity per hour.



Dentaltown is full of depressed dentists and salespeople. But yeah... if you're a low paid associate, you're looked down upon by the community in general. If you're highly paid, people think you're either overpaid, busting your @ss, and/or unethical. You can't win.



High volume is relative. What may be high volume to you may not be to another. I try not to disparage others and assume that people do crap dentistry when they are making a lot of money. In a few years, you may find that you got way faster and that the 3 year old (in practice), you were not as skilled as when you have 10 years of practice. I always tell others not to set your bar so low. It is these mental barriers that prevent us from performing optimally.

Setting low goal posts may help lower our expectations and avoid disappointment, but it also reduces our drive to aim for the stars.

Hey Tan Man, do you take every PPO insurance?

Also, do any of the specialist you work with OS, Endo, Perio take PPOs?

Thanks my man

 

[TanMan]

Hey Tan Man, do you take every PPO insurance?

Also, do any of the specialist you work with OS, Endo, Perio take PPOs?

Thanks my man

Nope, we have removed PPOs that don't pay or give us the runaround. The worst offender is United Concordia.

Specialists we work with take some PPOs, but they are more selective.

 

[Mauricio45]

You can talk to those Dentaltown guys about money, marketing, and business stuff…but for the love of god don’t go into the oral surgery forum. It’s a bunch of boomers do half ass’d dental alveolar surgery and cheering one another on.

You mean Tommy Murph? Lol!

 

[2TH MVR]

It almost feels like there is this pressure and unwritten rule from everyone that you must own. That you're "looked down upon" if you're "just" an associate. No real prestige.

But I've seen plenty of stories on DentalTown about owners who are miserable about staff and business issues. I'd rather have a high-paying associateship position than deal with all that though it's harder to find.

Look. Just do YOU. Nobody here knows your exact situation. At the end of the day .... all that matters is what you want to do. Happiness is different for everyone.
I've done it all. Associateship. Partnership. Ownership with multiple offices. And now an employee at a DSO. Each situation comes with it's positives and negatives. Also .... your AGE, current financial situation, and chance also plays a part in where you land.
At this point in my life (boomer) .... I fully enjoy working for the DSO. But when I 1st graduated ..... ownership was my goal. Private ownership with multiple offices was great for many years ... until it wasn't great. Private ownership is like a raising a child. To be successful ... you will need to invest tons of time and money into that entity. This is great when you are young and energetic, but becomes an issue when you get older. My original goal was to have just one private office. Work PT. Enjoy life. Well. Sounds good, but I found that working less meant less money and I still had to deal with the politics of owning a building/private office which became too much hassle (time consuming). So I sold it all. The right decision for someone at my point in life.

It's obvious from your posts that you have a bias towards not owning. My advice is to keep your options open. If a small private practice comes available at the right price .... maybe take a chance. Do BOTH. Associateship PT and private practice PT. Who knows. You may discover something that has been missing all these years.

 

[I_Love_Huskies]

You mean Tommy Murph? Lol!

Lol. I just read a recent post on DentalTown where he was bragging about poaching another dentist's 6 unit bridge while patient was on vacation and had her temp bridge fell out. That's a douche move.

 

[TanMan]

You can talk to those Dentaltown guys about money, marketing, and business stuff…but for the love of god don’t go into the oral surgery forum. It’s a bunch of boomers do half ass’d dental alveolar surgery and cheering one another on.

Hahaha, I just ventured on that subforum and just the inane questions they ask and the selfpromoting/aggrandizing, I'd be afraid for them to work on me.

 

[schmoob]

You mean Tommy Murph? Lol!

Don’t forget to buy his book. On eBay. And his wonder crane pick. Remember, you can do everything with a 301. Now let’s go to Guatemala and yank some teeth!

 

[I_Love_Huskies]

Don’t forget to buy his book. On eBay. And his wonder crane pick. Remember, you can do everything with a 301. Now let’s go to Guatemala and yank some teeth!

I find the crane pick aggressive. You can easily tear off a tuberosity with it.

 

[ShortShortsDad]

Hahaha, I just ventured on that subforum and just the inane questions they ask and the selfpromoting/aggrandizing, I'd be afraid for them to work on me.

It’s not as bad as the non-OMS posting OMS tips on the Dental Clinical Pearls FaceBook group. Even worse is when someone asks for a differential on what pathology may be - truly shocking incompetence (not the asking, but the people making up disease names and throwing out misremembered terms)

 

[Contach]

Lol the average that I've seen from every GP who does not own a practice is around 130-140 a year. As many before have said, you won't break 200k without doing a lot of advanced services over hours most likely longer than 9-5.

Here's my situation as a GP in a non-profit clinic in the Bronx (which if you take on massive debt, like I did at NYU, you'll want to aim for PSLF as your route to getting rid of the student loans)

I make $135k salaried, so that's $3,562 biweekly after taxes (no dependents). My REPAYE amount is likely gonna be around $700 when those go back into repayment in February (it's around 8k if I did a standard 10 year repayment plan). I don't pay malpractice and I get a stipend every year that covers all my CE if I go to the GNYDM lots of days.

Being in private practice, you'll make either $500 a day minimum or 35% of collections and if you work in a medicaid clinic, you'd need to work like a dog to make that $500. Medicaid will pay around $50 total for a limited exam, xrays and extraction. You're taking home around $18 for probably 30 minutes of your time. An exam, checkup and cleaning is around $70, fillings range from $25-$50, and sealants are $20 a piece.

Long story short, that 9-5 500k figure is wildly inaccurate for the average dentist. That's probably for an above average practice owner.

I think you have a ****ty deal if that is all you are making.

You should really look at what other options are out there. I am an oral and maxillofacial surgeon, and I sincerely hope my GP colleagues are doing much better than you. The hospital I work at in the Bronx pays about 80$ an hour for GPs to teach GPRs... At 7 hours a day, thats 560 a day, and benefits of a hospital package. That's already more than what you are making, and they aren't even busting their asses.
The consensus is that the GPs who are working at this hospital understand they are taking a huge paycut... some don't need to work, some are semi-retired, and most only do 1-2 days a week, because making this little isn't a good use of anyones, *even your* time.

DM me if you want to talk my friend

 

[TanMan]

It’s not as bad as the non-OMS posting OMS tips on the Dental Clinical Pearls FaceBook group. Even worse is when someone asks for a differential on what pathology may be - truly shocking incompetence (not the asking, but the people making up disease names and throwing out misremembered terms)

You're right... that and the nachos group. There's so much self-promotion/self-praise going on and it reminds me of when I first started out and thinking that it was all good advice. It's not all bad, but noobs really need to sort out what's good advice, bad advice, and just plain old advertising. The level of incompetence is quite scary and I'd be afraid for some of them to work on me.

 

[ShortShortsDad]

You're right... that and the nachos group. There's so much self-promotion/self-praise going on and it reminds me of when I first started out and thinking that it was all good advice. It's not all bad, but noobs really need to sort out what's good advice, bad advice, and just plain old advertising. The level of incompetence is quite scary and I'd be afraid for some of them to work on me.

Yeah there are some bat**** crazy GPs who post these long rambling nonsensical stream-of-consciousness posts about medical stuff that’s just downright made up. Even last week there was an endodontist who posted about treating an oroantral fistula and showed pics of him just obliterating everything and shoving bone into the deep dark hole of the sinus. Nobody said anything since it’s just too exhausting to police all the BS

 

[FXTTH]

I just spoke with a soon to be OMS. HIs job offer: base salary 350k and the sky is the limit for production. He will easily clear 500k if not hit 800k his first year out. I just don't see a snowball's chance that an Oral and Maxillofacial surgeon would be only making 250k with 3rds being so profitable.

My starting was 350 first year out and if I was partner my w2 would’ve been 1.2m after overhead. Private practice, 4 days/week. Do the math. A set of thirds is 30 min of work if you’re taking your time, and is 3k+. Most private practice OS have collection rates >90%. I always found it comical when Gp and other specialties tried commenting on what an OS makes. Especially when they don’t have a clue what a pager sounds like at 2am because they are sleeping, much less what someone looks like with half their face broken or what a neck looks like dissected to the carotid sheath. There is a reason OS is compensated so well in private practice, they pay their dues for 4-6+ more years after dental school.

 

[Dent001]

I’m an owner dentist. I just had my yearly meeting with my Cpa this morning going over 2021. So everything is still pretty fresh. Not gonna lie, dentistry is tough and I’ve worked hard past 3 years into ownership. Money becomes becomes more of a tangible idea compared to the environment. Yes it’s stressful but it comes in waves. Right now I’m pretty good, but we had Ups and downs like crazy last year due to staffing issues and post COVID bs. I was reflecting upon the environment/stress and the cpa numbers and I googled to see if others are in the same situation as me. It led me to this thread. I thought I could share.
2021 I made $500k worked 36 hrs 4 days a week. I’m 33, 6 years out of school. Although I only work 36 hrs I week I’ve spent a lot of time after hours stressing. It’s been a personal struggle trying to overcome business ownership. I’ve learned to stress less and enjoy the fun things I get to do in practice. I think it’ll only get better over time.
Dentistry is not easy, but definitely more variable than medicine. It’s a different kind of stress.

 

[nobeldds]

My starting was 350 first year out and if I was partner my w2 would’ve been 1.2m after overhead. Private practice, 4 days/week. Do the math. A set of thirds is 30 min of work if you’re taking your time, and is 3k+. Most private practice OS have collection rates >90%. I always found it comical when Gp and other specialties tried commenting on what an OS makes. Especially when they don’t have a clue what a pager sounds like at 2am because they are sleeping, much less what someone looks like with half their face broken or what a neck looks like dissected to the carotid sheath. There is a reason OS is compensated so well in private practice, they pay their dues for 4-6+ more years after dental school.

Your income figures are accurate and common, and well-deserved for an omfs. The unfortunate (fortunate for some) thing is that there isn’t a prominent figure that assigns incomes for careers according to how hard they’ve worked. OS is not necessarily well compensated because of the 4-6+ year residency.