Why do dentists have a high suicide rate?

[anash931]

The link between suicide and dentistry is something we have always heard about - but WHY does it happen?

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[Ivy.ch]

Being forced to work because an incomprehensible amount of debt over one’s head can’t help

 

[Saddleshoes]

Where did you get your data?
I'm not so sure dentists are all that high.
See the following...

The CDC's occupational suicide list:

1. Farmworkers, fishermen, lumberjacks, others in forestry or agriculture; 85 per 100,000.

2. Carpenters, miners, electricians, construction trades; 53.

3. Mechanics and those who do installation, maintenance, repair; 48.

4. Factory and production workers; 35.

5. Architects, engineers; 32.

6. Police, firefighters, corrections workers, others in protective services; 31.

7. Artists, designers, entertainers, athletes, media; 24.

8. Computer programmers, mathematicians, statisticians; 23.

9. Transportation workers; 22.

10. Corporate executives and managers, advertising and public relations; 20.

11. Lawyers and workers in legal system; 19.

12. Doctors, dentists and other health care professionals; 19.

 

[BYU4you]

Where did you get your data?
I'm not so sure dentists are all that high.
See the following...

The CDC's occupational suicide list:

1. Farmworkers, fishermen, lumberjacks, others in forestry or agriculture; 85 per 100,000.

2. Carpenters, miners, electricians, construction trades; 53.

3. Mechanics and those who do installation, maintenance, repair; 48.

4. Factory and production workers; 35.

5. Architects, engineers; 32.

6. Police, firefighters, corrections workers, others in protective services; 31.

7. Artists, designers, entertainers, athletes, media; 24.

8. Computer programmers, mathematicians, statisticians; 23.

9. Transportation workers; 22.

10. Corporate executives and managers, advertising and public relations; 20.

11. Lawyers and workers in legal system; 19.

12. Doctors, dentists and other health care professionals; 19.

I get the thought process behind how they combined these groups but it seems crazy being in the fields to think you can lump together dentist with doctors and “other” healthcare professionals.

Not sure how much I would actually put value on these when they have athletes and Artist in the same category, miners and carpenters or fisherman and lumberjacks.

 

[Thehighwind87]

For the most part, I believe dentists have a high depression rate due to:

1) debt load

2) difficulty in procedures.

At first the debt load isn’t that bad when you initially graduate, but as time goes on… and you feel more “trapped” in your career it becomes to feel suffocating.

As dentists we all have those days where NOTHING works. The 30 min crown seat turns into 1 1/2 hours of retaking impressions on a difficult patient. The staff no shows and you are stuck being the front back and assistant all at once. The easy class 2 18 mo turns into 1 hour of fighting a gagger who can’t get numb, is nervous and the moment you start filling the fill- the band pops out.

When you are 25-35 it’s sorta like meh comes with the territory but as time goes on and you are 35-50 and your back starts hurting, the loan obligations still pile up and you NEED to keep working otherwise you can’t fulfill your financial obligations- it drives some dentists to go down a depressing path.

I highly advocate anyone in this field to figure out your debt- tackle it- and be able to walk away when you want to. Being able to say ok I’m done and walk away is mentally freeing versus being “stuck in the field for 20-30 years and having to work” because if you don’t you can’t retire. Unfortunately a lot of new grads are signing on the bottom line of 20-25 year REPAYE, and while that sounds fine at 25-35, when you are year 25 and waiting for the forgiveness while trying to save for the tax obligation plus retirement… it can be very depressing

 

[yappy]

For the most part, I believe dentists have a high depression rate due to:

1) debt load

2) difficulty in procedures.

At first the debt load isn’t that bad when you initially graduate, but as time goes on… and you feel more “trapped” in your career it becomes to feel suffocating.

As dentists we all have those days where NOTHING works. The 30 min crown seat turns into 1 1/2 hours of retaking impressions on a difficult patient. The staff no shows and you are stuck being the front back and assistant all at once. The easy class 2 18 mo turns into 1 hour of fighting a gagger who can’t get numb, is nervous and the moment you start filling the fill- the band pops out.

When you are 25-35 it’s sorta like meh comes with the territory but as time goes on and you are 35-50 and your back starts hurting, the loan obligations still pile up and you NEED to keep working otherwise you can’t fulfill your financial obligations- it drives some dentists to go down a depressing path.

I highly advocate anyone in this field to figure out your debt- tackle it- and be able to walk away when you want to. Being able to say ok I’m done and walk away is mentally freeing versus being “stuck in the field for 20-30 years and having to work” because if you don’t you can’t retire. Unfortunately a lot of new grads are signing on the bottom line of 20-25 year REPAYE, and while that sounds fine at 25-35, when you are year 25 and waiting for the forgiveness while trying to save for the tax obligation plus retirement… it can be very depressing

I agree with the sentiment of what you’re saying, but It’s not realistic to enter a field like dentistry just to have a short career. Even excusing the debt, it takes 8 years minimum of education. That is a huge time investment that is largely not transferable to another career. I wouldn’t advise anyone go into dentistry without the expectation of working at least 25 years. Even then, if you don’t retire what will you do that comes close to paying what dentistry does?
Working for a living is not a bad thing. Sometimes I think we suffer more in our imagination than we do in reality.

 

[Thehighwind87]

I agree with the sentiment of what you’re saying, but It’s not realistic to enter a field like dentistry just to have a short career. Even excusing the debt, it takes 8 years minimum of education. That is a huge time investment that is largely not transferable to another career. I wouldn’t advise anyone go into dentistry without the expectation of working at least 25 years. Even then, if you don’t retire what will you do that comes close to paying what dentistry does?
Working for a living is not a bad thing. Sometimes I think we suffer more in our imagination than we do in reality.

I do agree and disagree with your sentiment. I still reason to say that the feeling of being trapped with debt- and you will be head over heels in debt with a mortgage practice loan and student loans while raising a family- and saving for retirement can be overwhelming. Coupled with a bad day in the dental field and you have your recipe for depression/high suicide rates. All you need is one or two lawsuits trying to genuinely help someone along with staffing issues and- while- carrying all those loans- can be hard.

Having the mental freedom of walking away is worth its weight in gold. When you are knee deep in debt and can’t walk away then it is an anchor that can drag the best of people down.

When I paid off my last loan, it was like a weight lifted from me. Knowing that tommorow I can sell the practice and go raise the kids and work whenever I feel like it is a blessing.

Those that are heavy in debt can’t, and that weight can be overwhelming. And while the initial investment of 8 years is long etc, and that you s should have a long career etc- it’s the fact that you don’t have a choice- due to debt- is what makes it stressful.

 

[charlestweed]

I do agree and disagree with your sentiment. I still reason to say that the feeling of being trapped with debt- and you will be head over heels in debt with a mortgage practice loan and student loans while raising a family- and saving for retirement can be overwhelming. Coupled with a bad day in the dental field and you have your recipe for depression/high suicide rates. All you need is one or two lawsuits trying to genuinely help someone along with staffing issues and- while- carrying all those loans- can be hard.

Having the mental freedom of walking away is worth its weight in gold. When you are knee deep in debt and can’t walk away then it is an anchor that can drag the best of people down.

When I paid off my last loan, it was like a weight lifted from me. Knowing that tommorow I can sell the practice and go raise the kids and work whenever I feel like it is a blessing.

Those that are heavy in debt can’t, and that weight can be overwhelming. And while the initial investment of 8 years is long etc, and that you s should have a long career etc- it’s the fact that you don’t have a choice- due to debt- is what makes it stressful.

According to the article below, financial stress/hardship is the major risk factor for suicide. The article listed the 4 main financial stressors: debt, homelessness, low income, unemployment. With the crazy amount of student loans that dentists have to borrow for their degree, it’s no surprise that the suicidal rate is high for dentists. It’s not just for dentists. Any person, who has low income (and unstable job) and has a lot of loans to pay back, will be more likely to commit suicide.

For this reason, it’s better to work hard to increase your income so you can pay off the student loans ASAP. I’d much rather deal work-related stress than dealing with the stress of being a “slave” to the banks. Work-related stress is less “suicidal” than financial stress. Work-related stress actually helps make me become a better clinician….it forces me to learn to improve my clinical skills so I can work more efficiently and make less mistakes.

Pay off debt first and invest later.

How Does Financial Stress Impact Health—And What Can You Do About It?

Debt can make a person up to 20 times more likely to consider and attempt suicide. Here's what causes financial stress and where to find help.

www.health.com

 

[Thehighwind87]

According to the article below, financial stress/hardship is the major risk factor for suicide. The article listed the 4 main financial stressors: debt, homelessness, low income, unemployment. With the crazy amount of student loans that dentists have to borrow for their degree, it’s no surprise that the suicidal rate is high for dentists. It’s not just for dentists. Any person, who has low income (and unstable job) and has a lot of loans to pay back, will be more likely to commit suicide.

For this reason, it’s better to work hard to increase your income so you can pay off the student loans ASAP. I’d much rather deal work-related stress than dealing with the stress of being a “slave” to the banks. Work-related stress is less “suicidal” than financial stress. Work-related stress actually helps make me become a better clinician….it forces me to learn to improve my clinical skills so I can work more efficiently and make less mistakes.

Pay off debt first and invest later.

How Does Financial Stress Impact Health—And What Can You Do About It?

Debt can make a person up to 20 times more likely to consider and attempt suicide. Here's what causes financial stress and where to find help.

www.health.com

Good assessment. Unfortunately for new grads they won’t know the burden until they are really in the thick of it (mid 30s, trying to build a practice, family while juggling all the loans)

When I first graduated, I had a bit of stress with loans since well no one likes to be in debt…

But the full weight of debt didn’t come until I had something to actually lose. When you have a mortgage with kids, practice and something to actually lose… that’s when the full burden and stress hits you.

When you have something to lose that’s when the reality of debt hits you and that’s why dentists with high debt in my opinion have a major risk of depression etc.

If you aren’t running your practice on all cylinders and barely breaking even while juggling big loans or not earning enough to have a dentist lifestyle then it’s def burdensome

 

[Molar Whisperer]

When I was in DS back in the mid to late 90s, we had a dentist speak on his experience with substance abuse. His story can happen to any of us...major auto accident resulting in chronic severe hip/joint pain. I see individuals who experienced substance abuse (in any profession) have more risk of debilitating depression and suicide.

In an unrelated experience, back in my undergrad days, a friend of an acquaintance had committed suicide. Growing up Asian, I was numb to all the Asian BS we had to endure such as parental pressures, racism and social unacceptance. I heard from that acquaintance that his friend was pressured to go to Med School by his parents so he didn't want to live anymore. My brother seriously contemplated back around 10-12 years ago. The Asian BS really affected him because he grew up ashamed to be Asian and went through Med School against his wishes. Being a physician, he experienced overwhelming work and life stresses sometimes writing charts until 2 am. His health also deteriorated around that time with 2 cancers which added fuel to his struggles.

 

[charlestweed]

When I was in DS back in the mid to late 90s, we had a dentist speak on his experience with substance abuse. His story can happen to any of us...major auto accident resulting in chronic severe hip/joint pain. I see individuals who experienced substance abuse (in any profession) have more risk of debilitating depression and suicide.

In an unrelated experience, back in my undergrad days, a friend of an acquaintance had committed suicide. Growing up Asian, I was numb to all the Asian BS we had to endure such as parental pressures, racism and social unacceptance. I heard from that acquaintance that his friend was pressured to go to Med School by his parents so he didn't want to live anymore. My brother seriously contemplated back around 10-12 years ago. The Asian BS really affected him because he grew up ashamed to be Asian and went through Med School against his wishes. Being a physician, he experienced overwhelming work and life stresses sometimes writing charts until 2 am. His health also deteriorated around that time with 2 cancers which added fuel to his struggles.

Not sure what you meant when you said “being pressure to go to med school”. Most people choose medicine because of prestige and job security…and not because they are pressured by their parents. The reason some doctors/dentists feel depressed is the excessive amount of work and responsibilities that are required of them...something that they didn't realize before they became doctors/dentists....not as glorious as they had envisioned.

This is America and we are in the 21st century. As soon as the kids turn 18, they can do anything they want including picking the college to attend and the college major. And we, parents, cannot do anything about it. We are actually afraid of our kids more than they are afraid of us. I couldn’t even convince my son to attend a nearby cheaper university, which offered him a scholarship + priority in class enrolment. He picked UCLA instead.....because it’s more "famous" and has a football team.

 

[Molar Whisperer]

Not sure what you meant when you said “being pressure to go to med school”. Most people choose medicine because of prestige and job security…and not because they are pressured by their parents. The reason some doctors/dentists feel depressed is the excessive amount of work and responsibilities that are required of them...something that they didn't realize before they became doctors/dentists....not as glorious as they had envisioned.

This is America and we are in the 21st century. As soon as the kids turn 18, they can do anything they want including picking the college to attend and the college major. And we, parents, cannot do anything about it. We are actually afraid of our kids more than they are afraid of us. I couldn’t even convince my son to attend a nearby cheaper university, which offered him a scholarship + priority in class enrolment. He picked UCLA instead.....because it’s more "famous" and has a football team.

There is this book by Amy Chua called Battle Hymn of the Tiger Mother. Although I didn't read the book, I understood the synopsis...very strict Asian parenting to a point where Americans will think it is child abuse. The author did not allow her 2 daughters to go out with friends as they must stay home and study rigorously beyond their school work. Many Asian families including in mine and my wife's, parents will hit us early and often if we make mistakes or if we didn't perform well enough to their liking. This kind of old school abuse leads to thoughts of suicide. S. Korea has the world's most rigorous public school system where 1 in 3 kids considered suicide.

Growing up in the late 70's and 80's, my father always stressed to us to be doctors. "Doctors don't starve when times are tough." My father's oldest sister didn't allow her kids to watch TV and so my father decided to follow that as well. TV was one of our few forms of entertainment back then so my brother, sister and I will watch when he was not around. We would then go run and hide when we hear the garage door open while he was pulling in. I love to watch football. One day when I in 8th grade, I didn't know the garage was already open on a Saturday morning and he surprised me coming in and beat the crap out of me. Although that event as well as the rest of my sucky childhood scarred me for life, it made me a better dad and a stronger person.

I believe the younger generation do not follow their parents way of raising children. We try to preserve our kids' mental health as much as we can by minimizing stress, pressures, and providing outlets and supporting activities. I believe that the Asian Way is the Wrong Way. We always struggle with innovation, creativity, and effective leadership. Hopefully the younger generation will outgrow those struggles.

 

[charlestweed]

There is this book by Amy Chua called Battle Hymn of the Tiger Mother. Although I didn't read the book, I understood the synopsis...very strict Asian parenting to a point where Americans will think it is child abuse. The author did not allow her 2 daughters to go out with friends as they must stay home and study rigorously beyond their school work. Many Asian families including in mine and my wife's, parents will hit us early and often if we make mistakes or if we didn't perform well enough to their liking. This kind of old school abuse leads to thoughts of suicide. S. Korea has the world's most rigorous public school system where 1 in 3 kids considered suicide.

Growing up in the late 70's and 80's, my father always stressed to us to be doctors. "Doctors don't starve when times are tough." My father's oldest sister didn't allow her kids to watch TV and so my father decided to follow that as well. TV was one of our few forms of entertainment back then so my brother, sister and I will watch when he was not around. We would then go run and hide when we hear the garage door open while he was pulling in. I love to watch football. One day when I in 8th grade, I didn't know the garage was already open on a Saturday morning and he surprised me coming in and beat the crap out of me. Although that event as well as the rest of my sucky childhood scarred me for life, it made me a better dad and a stronger person.

I believe the younger generation do not follow their parents way of raising children. We try to preserve our kids' mental health as much as we can by minimizing stress, pressures, and providing outlets and supporting activities. I believe that the Asian Way is the Wrong Way. We always struggle with innovation, creativity, and effective leadership. Hopefully the younger generation will outgrow those struggles.

Most authors tend to exaggerate things on their books to attract more readers and increase book sale. And Amy Chua was no exception.

Yes, Asian parents are strict but they know their limitations. It’s good that there are laws that protect the welfare of young helpless children. The parents know that if they push their child too hard, they could lose him/her forever. The child either rebels and leaves the house or is taken away from them by the local authority (if there’s a report of child abuse). Most parents are very reasonable. Yes, they push their kids to work hard in school but they also reward their kids handsomely for the accomplishments. It’s not just study…study…and study. My sister rewarded her son a $3000 gaming laptop for scoring 1550 on his SAT. She rewarded her oldest son a brand new Tesla for his acceptance to USC med school. Asian parents, who don’t have a lot of money, also try their best to reward their kids with nice things when their kids earn good grades in school. Many of us, Asian parents, don’t want our kids to get a P/T job or make them do work around the house because we want them to have more time to study.....and relax/play. We hope that being busy with school work + other extracurricular activities (sport, music, volunteer etc) help steer the kids away from other bad temptations at school and outside of school.

I don’t know how old your kids are. Enjoy them while they are still young. Kids usually listen to adults when they are still small (from ages 0 to around 14). It’s human instinct….young children need care and protection from their parents. Therefore, it is easier to mold them and to inspire them to do good things (ie studying hard, earning good grades, avoid making bad friends, staying away from drugs etc) when they are young. But as they get older, 15, 16 and above, they start to form opinions of their own…. They start to debate you….and it becomes harder to get them to listen to you. At this age, you can only pray and hope that they’ll make the right decisions for their life, including picking the right college, choosing a right college major, that will enable them to find good paying jobs after graduation, and have happy, financially independent life. Many of the parents, whom I met at my ortho practice, have complained to me that they couldn’t convince their kids to go to local state colleges/universities…..the majority of them want to move far away from home for the “college experience”. It’s no surprise that total student loan debt is now at $1.75 trillions.

Sorry to hear about your painful experiences in childhood. But at least all of you (you and your siblings) now have a successful prestigious career. You’re a dentist. Your brother is a physician….it’s hard to be happy when he has to battle with 2 cancers…..my hat off to him. I believe your sister is also a dentist, right?

 

[Thehighwind87]

Most authors tend to exaggerate things on their books to attract more readers and increase book sale. And Amy Chua was no exception.

Yes, Asian parents are strict but they know their limitations. It’s good that there are laws that protect the welfare of young helpless children. The parents know that if they push their child too hard, they could lose him/her forever. The child either rebels and leaves the house or is taken away from them by the local authority (if there’s a report of child abuse). Most parents are very reasonable. Yes, they push their kids to work hard in school but they also reward their kids handsomely for the accomplishments. It’s not just study…study…and study. My sister rewarded her son a $3000 gaming laptop for scoring 1550 on his SAT. She rewarded her oldest son a brand new Tesla for his acceptance to USC med school. Asian parents, who don’t have a lot of money, also try their best to reward their kids with nice things when their kids earn good grades in school. Many of us, Asian parents, don’t want our kids to get a P/T job or make them do work around the house because we want them to have more time to study.....and relax/play. We hope that being busy with school work + other extracurricular activities (sport, music, volunteer etc) help steer the kids away from other bad temptations at school and outside of school.

I don’t know how old your kids are. Enjoy them while they are still young. Kids usually listen to adults when they are still small (from ages 0 to around 14). It’s human instinct….young children need care and protection from their parents. Therefore, it is easier to mold them and to inspire them to do good things (ie studying hard, earning good grades, avoid making bad friends, staying away from drugs etc) when they are young. But as they get older, 15, 16 and above, they start to form opinions of their own…. They start to debate you….and it becomes harder to get them to listen to you. At this age, you can only pray and hope that they’ll make the right decisions for their life, including picking the right college, choosing a right college major, that will enable them to find good paying jobs after graduation, and have happy, financially independent life. Many of the parents, whom I met at my ortho practice, have complained to me that they couldn’t convince their kids to go to local state colleges/universities…..the majority of them want to move far away from home for the “college experience”. It’s no surprise that total student loan debt is now at $1.75 trillions.

Sorry to hear about your painful experiences in childhood. But at least all of you (you and your siblings) now have a successful prestigious career. You’re a dentist. Your brother is a physician….it’s hard to be happy when he has to battle with 2 cancers…..my hat off to him. I believe your sister is also a dentist, right?

Your sister should have gotten him Tesla stock instead. Depending on when she bought a 50k investment bought pre Covid would be worth 700k today. But I digress, that’s pretty generous of your sister. I’m going to be passing on stocks and investments when they do well.

 

[Molar Whisperer]

Most authors tend to exaggerate things on their books to attract more readers and increase book sale. And Amy Chua was no exception.

Yes, Asian parents are strict but they know their limitations. It’s good that there are laws that protect the welfare of young helpless children. The parents know that if they push their child too hard, they could lose him/her forever. The child either rebels and leaves the house or is taken away from them by the local authority (if there’s a report of child abuse). Most parents are very reasonable. Yes, they push their kids to work hard in school but they also reward their kids handsomely for the accomplishments. It’s not just study…study…and study. My sister rewarded her son a $3000 gaming laptop for scoring 1550 on his SAT. She rewarded her oldest son a brand new Tesla for his acceptance to USC med school. Asian parents, who don’t have a lot of money, also try their best to reward their kids with nice things when their kids earn good grades in school. Many of us, Asian parents, don’t want our kids to get a P/T job or make them do work around the house because we want them to have more time to study.....and relax/play. We hope that being busy with school work + other extracurricular activities (sport, music, volunteer etc) help steer the kids away from other bad temptations at school and outside of school.

I don’t know how old your kids are. Enjoy them while they are still young. Kids usually listen to adults when they are still small (from ages 0 to around 14). It’s human instinct….young children need care and protection from their parents. Therefore, it is easier to mold them and to inspire them to do good things (ie studying hard, earning good grades, avoid making bad friends, staying away from drugs etc) when they are young. But as they get older, 15, 16 and above, they start to form opinions of their own…. They start to debate you….and it becomes harder to get them to listen to you. At this age, you can only pray and hope that they’ll make the right decisions for their life, including picking the right college, choosing a right college major, that will enable them to find good paying jobs after graduation, and have happy, financially independent life. Many of the parents, whom I met at my ortho practice, have complained to me that they couldn’t convince their kids to go to local state colleges/universities…..the majority of them want to move far away from home for the “college experience”. It’s no surprise that total student loan debt is now at $1.75 trillions.

Sorry to hear about your painful experiences in childhood. But at least all of you (you and your siblings) now have a successful prestigious career. You’re a dentist. Your brother is a physician….it’s hard to be happy when he has to battle with 2 cancers…..my hat off to him. I believe your sister is also a dentist, right?

Yes, my sister is also a dentist and we are pretty successful. It broke my heart that my sister needed therapy because she has a lot of anxiety and sleepless nights. I am blessed that my 3 kids, 14 y/o twin boys and 10 y/o girl are all happy, healthy and very successful at school without any pressures from me or my wife. They know it is very hard to pay the bills, very hard to find good jobs, and the cost of living is nearing unattainable rates. My boys are interested in preparing for the National Merit Scholarships to minimize school costs (it never too early to prepare).