Dental to MD?

[ItsGavinC]

Nice new picture Gavin. Are those your kids? The boy looks familiar from the other picture.

That they are.

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[toofache32]

That they are.

Funny, one of your kids looks just like me...

Just kidding, I don't wanna get banned again.

 

[ISU_Steve]

And the other one looks like me.....

 

[aphistis]

...and, at least at my hospital, they know we're the go to guys for anything between the pleura and dura.

 

[LestatZinnie]

In context of my previous posts, I never called Dentistry a mid level profession. I'm sorry if thats what you thought. Midlevel = Nurse practitioners, Physician assistants, Nurse anesthetists, optometrists, etc. I understand that Dental school is hard, but I just don't see how one can say it is harder than medical school without completing all 4 years.

I respect Dentists and their training...they are very much needed.

many people say dental school is harder because during the clinical years, it's a pain in the ass having to manage your own patients, be responsible for all your work, and finish all the procedures you need. however, i'm sure med students more than make it up during their residencies, many times over.

so, if you're talking about just the 4 years of school, yes dentistry is probably more challenging. however, if you're talking about the overall path one needs to take to become full fledged professional, i think med school is tougher due to residency.

 

[ItsGavinC]

Just kidding, I don't wanna get banned again.

The second time is much worse than the first.

 

[ISU_Steve]

The second time is much worse than the first.

Yeah, because then the conjugal visits end and you get put in the SDN holding cell with a large man named "Tyrone".

 

[toofache32]

The second time is much worse than the first.

...kinda like marriage...

 

[tx oms]

...kinda like marriage...

Ha! That's funny. I'll refrain from trashing my manhood with a smily.

The second time is much worse than the first.

Or sex with a fat girl as the beer is wearing off.

 

[toofache32]

...Or sex with a fat girl as the beer is wearing off.

Ahhhh...the voice of experience.

 

[johnny_blaze]

This thread makes for a good read… a couple things stood out that I would like to post my opinion on.


1) The issue of dental school being harder than med school.

I don’t know which one is harder. I am in med school, i have experience with dentistry but have never been to dental school. I personally think dentals school would be harder for me… and not for the “honourable” reasons that so many of you may think (ie. More work needed, more responsibility, blah blah blah). The simple reason is… I’m not interested in dentistry! I enjoy learning about the rest of the body. Most MD’s will say that a general surgery residency is much harder than dermatology, however, I personally would be in hell if I did a dermatology residency (I am not that interest in the field) and I would probably find it very difficult due to a lack of motivation. I’d rather spend the time and effort doing something I love.

2) More responsibility in dental school.

This is variable depending on your point of view. I’ve listened to my dental friends go on and on about all the things they get to do but none of them actually impress me seeing as how I’ve aided in two resuscitations. How much you get to do varies between individuals. It all depends on where you are, what’s available, and who your with.

3) MD’s advising to go into dentistry as a career instead of medicine.

When it comes to MY career…who cares what someone else thinks!
Posting “If I could do it all over again I would do (insert dental specialty here)” means nothing and it proves no point. I’ve met an OMF surgeon who said he would rather have done medicine because the MD he has are just letters after his name and he realized that he wanted more out of his career that dentistry couldn’t give him. Becuase of what he has told me i have decided that medicine is superior to dentistry! Do you see how stupid that sounds????

Who does general surgery call when they need a massive carotid body tumor removed? ENT? Noooo, my friend, they speed dial OMFS. Who does peds call when they need a cranial vault reshaping for synostosis (look it up)? Plastics what? Cranio-facial who? That's right, OMFS. Who does the chairman of psych call when a family member needs their thyroid taken out? General surgery? ENT? Hell no, he call's the man, OMFS. Who does your mom call when she..., never mind, that's another topic.

Carotid body tumours are handled by vascular surgeons. Thyroid surgery is performed by general surgeons, with an interest in endocrine surgery, head and neck surgeons, or surgical oncologists (if its cancer related). There is a lot of overlap in medicine, so contrary to your belief, OMFS does not rule the world.

 

[River13]

Carotid body tumours are handled by vascular surgeons. Thyroid surgery is performed by general surgeons, with an interest in endocrine surgery, head and neck surgeons, or surgical oncologists (if its cancer related). There is a lot of overlap in medicine, so contrary to your belief, OMFS does not rule the world.

Actually, it depends which part of the world you're in. Here in Louisiana where myself and TX OMS live, OMFS rule more of the world than you assume...which type of surgeon does what varies by region, and in the South, OMFS's have an extremely broad scope...including everything above stated.

 

[tx oms]

I personally think dentals school would be harder for me… and not for the “honourable” reasons that so many of you may think (ie. More work needed, more responsibility, blah blah blah). The simple reason is… I’m not interested in dentistry!

True dat.

I’ve listened to my dental friends go on and on about all the things they get to do but none of them actually impress me seeing as how I’ve aided in two resuscitations.

You mean you got to put the Foley in? Do you suffer from the DSM-IV disease known as "Medical Student Delusion of Granduer? One of my classmates wants to be a surgeon and has taken to calling herself a surgeon ("Well, as a surgeon, I think...). Problem is, she's not a surgeon and, like all medical students, she is the most useless member of the team. If all medical students disappeared one day patients would still be okay, not so with dental school. I concede that some medical situations are much more life-threatening than those seen in the dental school; however, if you've been in many clinics you realize that most are not.

Carotid body tumours are handled by vascular surgeons.

Who do you think consulted us?

 

[Thegandlighs]

What is with all this "dental school is harder than med school" or "OMFS rules more of the world than you think" crap. Many of the posters on this thread, both medical and dental students alike, have been very egotistical. Yes, one of the med. students replied with some very asinine comments, but many of the dental students have also replied with some pretty inane comments too.

Everyone has to get off their high horse and realize that the only thing that matters as current/future physicians and dentists is the health and well-being of our patients. I'm sure a patient who was in a car accident who has massive internal bleeding complete with oral-facial injuries really cares about any of the comments made in this petty debate.

 

[dWiz]

What is with all this "dental school is harder than med school" or "OMFS rules more of the world than you think" crap. Many of the posters on this thread, both medical and dental students alike, have been very egotistical. Yes, one of the med. students replied with some very asinine comments, but many of the dental students have also replied with some pretty inane comments too.

Everyone has to get off their high horse and realize that the only thing that matters as current/future physicians and dentists is the health and well-being of our patients. I'm sure a patient who was in a car accident who has massive internal bleeding complete with oral-facial injuries really cares about any of the comments made in this petty debate.

ok, I agree, peace, lets just all agree that dental school is much harder than med school and we're better in every way from those lousy med school *****s

 

[johnny_blaze]

Actually, it depends which part of the world you're in. Here in Louisiana where myself and TX OMS live, OMFS rule more of the world than you assume...which type of surgeon does what varies by region, and in the South, OMFS's have an extremely broad scope...including everything above stated.

You’re right. It also depends which doctors are around and what their interests are in as this can affect referral patterns. A vascular surgeon with a major interest in carotid artery surgery is less likely to refer one out than one who is interested in venous and lymphatics. There are some hand surgeons that do their own upper limb revascularization rather than referring to vascular surgeons, but that doesn’t mean that all orthopaedic surgeons do upper limb revascularization, get what I mean.

I didn’t mean to offend anybody with my “OMFS rules more of the world than you think” comment. I just wanted to remind people of the overlap that exists, meaning that there are a lot of different surgeons who can do some procedures done by OMFS.

But I am a bit curious… when do OMFS get involved with carotid body tumours? The last time I spoke to a OMFS about them he told me that they always send them to vascular. Again, this might have something to do with what part of the world you are in.

 

[johnny_blaze]

True dat.

You mean you got to put the Foley in? Do you suffer from the DSM-IV disease known as "Medical Student Delusion of Granduer? One of my classmates wants to be a surgeon and has taken to calling herself a surgeon ("Well, as a surgeon, I think...). Problem is, she's not a surgeon and, like all medical students, she is the most useless member of the team. If all medical students disappeared one day patients would still be okay, not so with dental school. I concede that some medical situations are much more life-threatening than those seen in the dental school; however, if you've been in many clinics you realize that most are not.

Most medical students are allowed to do what we have been trained to do so we can practice our skills. Don’t forget that most complicated procedures are learned after medical school as practicing doctors (ie. Chest drains, central lines) Some students get more responsibility or do more complicated procedures, as they were lucky enough to be placed with a doc who either taught them or allowed them to do it. I have had the opportunity to close up following an operation, seeing as how I want to be a surgeon, this is very important to me… more important than drilling a tooth, however to a dentist, the opposite probably applies. See what I’m trying to say.

 

[johnny_blaze]

What is with all this "dental school is harder than med school" or "OMFS rules more of the world than you think" crap. Many of the posters on this thread, both medical and dental students alike, have been very egotistical. Yes, one of the med. students replied with some very asinine comments, but many of the dental students have also replied with some pretty inane comments too.

I hope people don’t think that I am trying to put down or insult dentistry or dental students in anyway, because I assure you that I do respect the field. The reason I’m posting in this forum is to correct any misinterpretations some dentists have about medicine.
When I scroll through the dental threads I see pre-med/dent students asking for advice about which career to go into and a lot of the information given to them about medicine is incorrect or greatly exaggerated. I never see any dental students giving them this very useful advice “if you want to know about the pros and cons of medicine, go post in the medics forum”. Instead, some dental students (some of which have done some years of med school, but are NOT practicing MDs) give bad advice based on what they perceive medicine to be. You may influence someone else’s decision as to what career to go into, take it with responsibility.

 

[tx oms]

Instead, some dental students (some of which have done some years of med school, but are NOT practicing MDs) give bad advice based on what they perceive medicine to be. You may influence someone else’s decision as to what career to go into, take it with responsibility.

So, since you're not a practicing MD you can't give advice about a career in medicine either.

Anyway, I think some dental students have penis envy about medical school. That's why they run their moth about how much medicine sucks. Having been there and done that, I would say dentists aren't missing much. I run my mouth based on experience. At the same time, like I said before, many medical students have an over inflated view of their condom size. You're not fooling anyone buying the magnums at Wal-Mart.

The thing I hate about all fields of medicine is the needy patients. Physicians see lots of needy, whiny patients no matter what field their in. Sure, nephrologists, surgical oncologists, etc see patients with serious/real problems but for everyone you see there's three who just want to bitch about some stupid complaint.

Only TMJ patients come to the dentist/OMFS when they don't need to be there. Sure, dental patients may bug you once post-op, but most of our patients have a real complaint that we can fix and move on. Not many patients come back over and over again to complain about their filling. You finish the treatment plan and it's over. Hell, most dentist spend the majority of their free time thinking of ways to get their patients to come back in and spend more money once their mouths have been "tuned-up". Most family practice docs spend time trying to figure out how to get rid of the miserable wretch with right arm pain six centimeters above the elbow and pain between their second and third toes on the left foot, conditions which they believe to be linked.

 

[johnny_blaze]

So, since you're not a practicing MD you can't give advice about a career in medicine either.

I can give advice on issues i feel confident in my knowlege about. The point was not for me to answer all the questions, but for medical questions to be put in the medics forum, where residents can also give advice (or correct the mistakes of others).

Most family practice docs spend time trying to figure out how to get rid of the miserable wretch with right arm pain six centimeters above the elbow and pain between their second and third toes on the left foot, conditions which they believe to be linked.

My experiences in family medicine were completely different to this, there were lots of potentially serious cases. Something as trivial as advising someone how to use their inhaler may seem like a waist of time to you but it could prevent a fatal asthma attack from occurring in the future.

I wonder what the FP residents would think about your comment? I doubt they’d say “yeah… that pretty much sums up my job”

 

[omfsres]

Most medical students are allowed to do what we have been trained to do so we can practice our skills. Don’t forget that most complicated procedures are learned after medical school as practicing doctors (ie. Chest drains, central lines) Some students get more responsibility or do more complicated procedures, as they were lucky enough to be placed with a doc who either taught them or allowed them to do it. I have had the opportunity to close up following an operation, seeing as how I want to be a surgeon, this is very important to me… more important than drilling a tooth, however to a dentist, the opposite probably applies. See what I’m trying to say.

A PA can also do every procedure you're talking about. Talk to me when you start practicing real medice/surgery.

 

[toofache32]

...I have had the opportunity to close up following an operation, seeing as how I want to be a surgeon, this is very important to me…

Impressive. With real sutures?

 

[johnny_blaze]

A PA can also do every procedure you're talking about. Talk to me when you start practicing real medice/surgery.

I was not trying to brag about what we get to do. I was trying to point out that we practice skills that are relevant to our level of responsibility and practicing these skills are more essential than learning the more advanced skills attained in later training. What’s the point of learning how to do a fem-pop bypass when you cant even suture a wound closed properly? hmmm, i guess i'll learn the answer to that when i start practicing real medice/surgery

 

[fun8stuff]

True dat.

If all medical students disappeared one day patients would still be okay, not so with dental school.

lol, the point you guys are missing is that because of the simplicity, ease, and lack of seriousness, dental students can do many things without much experience. This is why the training is so much shorter for a dentist than physicians. I would rather have a student scraping my teeth than have a student performing any type of operation on me. So I wouldn't be bragging...
just because a dental student can provide comparable care as a dentist means very little. A more realistic way of saying this would be to say- if you could pick to have all dentists or physicians disappear, which would have the most dire consequences. I think the answer is obvious. lol. anyways, i dont mean to sound arrogant, but most of you guys have no idea of what you are talking about...

 

[tx oms]

A more realistic way of saying this would be to say- if you could pick to have all dentists or physicians disappear, which would have the most dire consequences. I think the answer is obvious.

A lot of patients with toothaches wouldn't be able to make their somaticized complaints to their MD?

 

[lnn2]

if you could pick to have all dentists or physicians disappear, which would have the most dire consequences. I think the answer is obvious. lol.

It all depends on whether you have a toofache with facial swelling or pain from STDs!!!

 

[aphistis]

lol, the point you guys are missing is that because of the simplicity, ease, and lack of seriousness, dental students can do many things without much experience.

I think this here excerpt lets anyone familiar with dentistry know how much credibility you have. Gosh, Ma, remind me which end of this here spinny-sharp thing I'm supposed to stick in their mouth?

This is why the training is so much shorter for a dentist than physicians.

That's odd, I always thought it was because we don't have half our class needing two years to figure out whether they'd rather spend their career adjusting doses for HCTZ, for Prozac, or for Lipitor.

 

[Eric Dobbs]

I'm not a regular to this site, but I happened along and saw this topic. I am a dentist turned surgeon so I have some insight into this whole dentistry vs. medicine debate.

The ignorance I see from many of these posts is a big part of the reason I am no longer in dentistry. People have no idea how intense and demanding the training is to become a dentist. I'll be the first to admit that I have some ego issues, but I just couldn't deal with the lack of respect I got as a dentist.

If you think that the things dental students do aren't serious you are simply clueless. Tell the kid in my dental school class who extracted the tuberosity and floor of the sinus along with a second molar that not much can go wrong in everyday dentistry. LOL Medical students only get suture because we aren't supposed to make the nurses do it, not because it's an important part of their training. Dental students are performing their own surgeries and then suturing up on a regular basis.

As for which schooling track is harder, I would have to side with the dentists on this one as well. There were a few classes in med school that I didn't take as a dental student, but these were the easy "intro to the profession" type classes that nobody worried about anyway. The classes that everybody worried about were pretty much identical to the ones I took in dental school except that I got about three times as long to study for the exams. Some classes like path and pharm were a little more involved in med school, but not horribly so. But there were also classes where I thought med school skimped a little when compared to dental school. Believe it or not, much of anatomy was more rigorous in dental school.

I actually think that med school could probably be compressed into about a three year program if it was run like dental school. I also think that dentists know far too little to be able to practice independently when they get out. A residency or at least a closely supervised associateship should be mandatory. Dentists deserve much more respect than they get; the work they do is difficult and can't be done by just anybody.

In short, I am glad there are dentists in the world, but I am also glad that I am no longer one of them. LOL But that's a completely other issue. I don't how long this site stores old posts but I was on here about a year or so ago if anyone wants to dig up my reasons for getting out - as I recall it wasn't taken well by a lot of people here.

Johnny Blaze, stick with it. You are going to be a great surgeon someday. I can tell from your posts you aren't cut out for IM. That scalpel will be in your hand before you know it.

 

[dinesh]

Great post Dobbs.
Don't forget, dentists aren't real doctors until your teeth starts to hurt!.

 

[ktcook83]

I2I you need to get your facts straight...

I know current D1's and M1's here at umich and even most of the M1's would admit that med school is easier than dental school. The D1's start the day off earlier, stay later, and have less study time, as they have to contend with pre-clinical activities on top of didactics.

 

[johnny_blaze]

Johnny Blaze, stick with it. You are going to be a great surgeon someday. I can tell from your posts you aren't cut out for IM. That scalpel will be in your hand before you know it.

Cheers mate, I’m just itching to get that scalpel in my hand and start cutting!

I really liked your post. Its good to hear from someone who’s done a lot from each field. I personally have nothing against dentists. They can do things that we cant so they’re okay in my books. I think my main problem is that a lot of dental students on this forum give really bad advice about medicine to pre med/dent students who are still trying to decide which field to go into. There’s nothing wrong with promoting dentistry, but issues like “you’re never going to have any family time in medicine, unless you’re a GP” or “dentistry is where all the money is” are totally wrong and misleading, yet they are commonly used as arguments not to go into medicine. If this was posted in a medic’s forum, there probably will be some medic idiots who would try and put down dentistry, but I assure you there would also be some medics who would set them straight and tell them to grow up. Unfortunately that never happens here when medicine is the target, not even by the dental students who used to be medics.

I actually do find some of these threads interesting. It’s much better than the MD vs DO, IM vs Surgery, IMG vs US grad debates we always seem to get in the medics forum. I already know all about that stuff, at least by coming here I learn a bit more about dentistry… you never know… my kids may want to go into it!
(I don’t currently have any children… I meant if I have any later on in life)

 

[puffy1]

If I got a dollar for everytime a "which is harder/better/more respected, med or dent or opt" deterioted into something like this thread, I'd be a very rich man. It would be great if the energy and passion that some people put into these "debates" actually helped or improved anything, but it never does.

Bottom line: Med or dental school is as hard or difficult as you make it out to be. I know some dental students that bust their rear because they want to go into competitive subspecialties like orthodontistry or endo or omfs, or because they want to be good as a general dentist. I know others that kind of float through school, barely pass, put in as little time and effort as needed, because all they want is that degree. I see the same things happening in medical school as well.

All of this is just comparing apples to oranges. Dentistry and medicine are two vastly different fields, from the way people are trained, to lifestyles and work schedules after schooling, to everything else. Yet people still want to start these threads because we know there are enough insecure people around here that will be more than willing to, essentially, give reasons "why I'm better than you". That's what it all comes down to folks. Most of us are the best students in high school and college, make the best grades, have held positions of authority in school, and have competed for spots into two very good fields. Apparently, this doesn't end once we have entered into our chosen fields. It happens amongst our own classmates, and it happens between different fields.

And I find it stupifying that this debate occurs between people that, for the most part, don't have any real clue what they are talking about when it comes to the otherside. Seldom do we see a post from a person that has walked a mile in the other's shoes, yet for some reason they seem to know an awful lot about it.

It shouldn't be a question of "who works harder?"...you know what, we need good dentists like we need good doctors. I hope the dentist I go to busted his or her butt in dental school so that when I need help, they can get the job done. Same thing when I get sick...I hope my physician studied his butt off in med school, because I'm coming for answers and I hope he or she has them.

I'm not going to comment on which is harder/better than the other. I spent a little time in dental school before I went to med school, and my fiance is entering her 3rd year in dental school, so even though I may be more of an authority than most that post here, I will not enter into this "debate". What I will say is that I see the beauty of both professions, I respect them both immensely, and I hope that everyone that is in each profession finds happiness...if they aren't, I hope they get the heck out and fast.

It all comes down to a lack of respect for the other, and the way things seem, it's not going to change anytime soon. Once you grasp the fact that it's not which is the better of the TWO, but what is better for YOU, this unproductive, irrelevant "debate" will end.

 

[ktcook83]

If I got a dollar for everytime a "which is harder/better/more respected, med or dent or opt" deterioted into something like this thread, I'd be a very rich man. It would be great if the energy and passion that some people put into these "debates" actually helped or improved anything, but it never does.

Bottom line: Med or dental school is as hard or difficult as you make it out to be. I know some dental students that bust their rear because they want to go into competitive subspecialties like orthodontistry or endo or omfs. I know others that kind of float through school, barely pass, put in as little time and effort as needed, because all they want is that degree. I see the same things happening in medical school as well.

All of this is just comparing apples to oranges. Dentistry and medicine are two vastly different fields, from the way people are trained, to lifestyles and work schedules after schooling, to everything else. Yet people still want to start these threads because we know there are enough insecure people around here that will be more than willing to, essentially, give reasons "why I'm better than you". That's what it all comes down to folks. Most of us are the best students in high school and college, make the best grades, have held positions of authority in school, and have competed for spots into two very good fields. Apparently, this doesn't end once we have entered into our chosen fields. It happens amongst our own classmates, and it happens between different fields.

And I find it stupifying that this debate occurs between people that, for the most part, don't have any real clue what they are talking about when it comes to the otherside. Seldom do we see a post from a person that has walked a mile in the other's shoes, yet for some reason they seem to know an awful lot about it.

It all comes down to a lack of respect for the other, and the way things seem, it's not going to change anytime soon. Once you grasp the fact that it's not which is the better of the TWO, but what is better for YOU, this unproductive, irrelevant "debate" will end.

Amen

 

[superflyDO]

I don't how long this site stores old posts but I was on here about a year or so ago if anyone wants to dig up my reasons for getting out - as I recall it wasn't taken well by a lot of people here.

I envy your honesty and concern for everybody out there. I know a lot of people I met in undergrad were switching from pre-med to dentistry because "it's easier to make money" according to them - for some reason this decision was made by two of my friends when they didn't make the A they had hoped for in OChem we all took together. A few times, I'd think to myself wow they might be doing the right thing and I'd think twice about my goals but I went ahead and pursued my dream and very glad I did ever since - especially after reading your post tonight! In any case, financial security is a big factor in choosing careers, but I have yet to meet an unemployed physician. In any case, you have made a huge contribution to this site and the pre-meds who think about switching. They are very lucky to have such a thing to read. My respect for the dentists out there has only gone up after reading your posts so I don't know why some of the people out there took offense. You mentioned the difficulty of schooling and work and lack of respect and I have the upmost respect for my dentists. However what you've pointed out to premeds thinking about switching is crucial and usually will be too late to go back to med school like you did... great job. In regards to your old post, here it is:
Hi guys, I stumbled on this website last night and ended up spending a couple hours reading your messages here. I see myself in a lot of your posts and can?t help but share my story. Ever since I ?got my tonsils out? in elementary school I wanted to be a doctor. As I neared the end of my college days though, I started looking at dentistry. The actual practice of dentistry didn?t excite me that much, but I managed to convince myself that the relaxed hours, good pay, and relatively short period of schooling would easily make up for any lack of interest in the work.

I ended up going to dental school and graduated at the age of 24 way back in 1991. I got out of school and started working about 60 hrs/wk as an associate at two different offices. I made ~$50,000 that yr. The next yr. I bought an older practice in an area that had become a growing suburb, worked about the same amount of hours and made close to $100,000. Awesome money for a 26 yr. old kid and I was living it up. The next year I nearly doubled that figure and the next yr nearly doubled that! I was pulling in just over $300,000/yr. (remember this was a decade ago) and was busy congratulating myself on my choice of careers while college friends who went to med school were still in residency. In 1996 my wife of three yrs. and my new baby were killed in a car accident. I was seriously depressed and really started looking at my life and what I had accomplished. Other than my little family -which was now gone - everything in my life had been shallow and superficial. Cars, clothes, and boats had been the extent of my ambition. Work no longer had any meaning for me as I no longer had anyone with whom I could share the rewards of that work. It had all been about money for me.

I saw how empty my professional life had been and began to realize that my longing for medicine had never subsided; it was just pushed to the back of my mind. Looking back now and being honest with myself I have to admit that a part of the reason I never applied to med school in the first place was that I was just scared of being rejected by medical school. So I went back to med school in ?96 and lost myself in the wonder of it all. I am now in the fourth year of a general surgery residency and couldn?t be happier. I work like a dog (80 hr workweek limit? Hahaha) and make the money of a highschool teacher, yet I couldn?t be happier. If I took all the things that I thought would make a good career when I was 19 and put them all together, the opposite of that would be surgery. It will still be many years before I reach the level of pay that I had as a 28 yr old dentist, but I don?t care. I feel like my work has meaning now. There is no way to describe the rush you get from saving a life. You never get tired of the hugs, cards, flowers, and cookies you get from patients who wouldn?t even be alive if it hadn?t been for you.

Anyhow, my point is that if you feel the calling for medicine, don?t fool yourself into thinking money and leisure time will make up for that. The fields are similar in that both dentists and MDs are called doctor; the comparison ends there. Don?t be afraid to fail; it may take 2, 3, 4 times to get in. You may have to settle for DO or Caribbean schools. Whatever sacrifices you have to make it will be worth it.

I?m not looking to bash dentistry; it is a great profession and fills a very important need, but I had a desire for something more ? well? just different really -and I?m pretty sure there are some of you out there who are going through the very same thought processes I did at 19. Dentistry is fantastic if you are really into it, but be honest with yourself about what it is and is not.

1. People will not value what you do. In my residency I am often referred to as Dr. Magic Hands, (corny and overplayed, I know) but the irony is that I was only a mediocre dentist. We surgeons get credit for having fantastic hand skills and possessing that special touch, but the truth is that most surgeons couldn?t cut a class 2 prep to save their lives. People rave about my work as a surgeon, but nobody ever got out of my dental chair and said, ?wow, doc it must take a lot of skill to work with that kind of precision.? As far as they are concerned you just plopped a bunch of metal in their mouth and grossly overcharged for it to boot. Nothing in the realm of general surgery really comes close to the level of precision required by the dentist, yet we get all the glory.
2. You will be isolated. People do not understand dentistry and they never will. The only people who have even a remote idea of the complexity of your job is your assistant - and she thinks she could do it all better than you anyway if it weren?t for those pesky schooling requirements - so you don?t even want to talk shop with her. Even physicians are clueless about dentistry. I wish you all could see the looks I used to get from other MDs when I would try to make referrals for perio, TMD evaluation, or ortho. If MDs don?t treat it, it?s not a real disease.
3. About a quarter of your patients (remember? the people you are so magnanimously trying to help) will intensely hate your guts and another half will fear you like the plague. People will come into a dental office and whine about every little pinch or hint of pressure ? did you confuse me with your aromatherapist?!!! I?m cutting up your frickin? mouth here!!! The same phobic dental patients let the ?real docs? poke, slice, prod and generally abuse them like it was a ride at an amusement park.
Generally if I have a mild screw up as a surgeon, ?that?s OK doc, I know you did your best.? (I?m glossing over those few sue-happy #@#s who have a lawyer on retainer before they?ve even been admitted to the hospital. )The dentist is held responsible for every thing that goes wrong in the patient?s mouth whether he touched it or not. You can?t imagine how many patients I had who honestly believed ?I never had any problems until my last dentist screwed up ALL my teeth.? (Records probably showed something like RCT on #10 and an MOD on #18; yep? I can see how that would make you a candidate for a full denture. )
4. Dentistry is not glamorous. You will not be saving anybody?s life. People aren?t impressed with all the time you spent in dental school, even though if I had to compare (hard to do because I was so much younger in dental school) I would probably say dental school was more difficult to get through. You will not be the hero; and you will rarely come home thinking ?wow, I just changed somebody?s life today.? I know this sounds like shallow, weak-minded ego stroking, but you have no idea how great it feels to know that people care about and are impressed by what you do.

Again, these things don?t apply to everyone. Most people enter dentistry understanding all this and have personalities compatible with that kind of work environment. They love what they do, and in fact, would probably deny that that is the way things are because they are so comfortable with it. Most dentists are incredibly happy people. But for those of you who think in your hearts you want to do medicine but are lured by the promise of money, leisure, and quick gratification, you would do well to reevaluate your priorities.

Sorry if this sounded like a rant; it wasn?t meant to be. I am sincerely sorry if I offended anyone. Medicine has its faults to be sure, and there are many of my medical colleagues who have the same financial approach to medicine that I had for dentistry. I just wish someone would have been this blunt with me 20 yrs. ago and saved me some time. (not that I would have listened ) But I hope this may have helped some of you who are trying to decide which way to go. Eric

 

[johnny_blaze]

Wow, that's probably one of the best posts i've ever read.
very informative!

 

[airvent]

Well jeez, I'm sorry for your loss.


Your posts are honest and informative, but i couldn't help but roll my eyes andthink "oh brother!" Your feeling that Dentistry is empty and superficial, and your deep longing need for respect sound more like personal issues than a reflection of the fields. (both fields are well respected)


"Savings lives" is laughable,and only points out your want for admiration. Both fields are very rewarding whether you are saving lives or not. The simple fact that you rely on that for you support points to your need for drama as well. If there is any misconception being thrown around here is that as a MD you will be saving lives. I suppose if a Dermatololgist(sp) diagnoses skin cancer and referr you to a oncologist she saved your life.

Anyway these debates are boring, and the only people having them are the ones with insecurities about their status and respect. If i bumped into a MD that didn't respect other professionals i would think that they have some serious personal issues.

 

[GQ1]

I'm not a regular to this site, but I happened along and saw this topic. I am a dentist turned surgeon so I have some insight into this whole dentistry vs. medicine debate.

The ignorance I see from many of these posts is a big part of the reason I am no longer in dentistry. People have no idea how intense and demanding the training is to become a dentist. I'll be the first to admit that I have some ego issues, but I just couldn't deal with the lack of respect I got as a dentist.

If you think that the things dental students do aren't serious you are simply clueless. Tell the kid in my dental school class who extracted the tuberosity and floor of the sinus along with a second molar that not much can go wrong in everyday dentistry. LOL Medical students only get suture because we aren't supposed to make the nurses do it, not because it's an important part of their training. Dental students are performing their own surgeries and then suturing up on a regular basis.

As for which schooling track is harder, I would have to side with the dentists on this one as well. There were a few classes in med school that I didn't take as a dental student, but these were the easy "intro to the profession" type classes that nobody worried about anyway. The classes that everybody worried about were pretty much identical to the ones I took in dental school except that I got about three times as long to study for the exams. Some classes like path and pharm were a little more involved in med school, but not horribly so. But there were also classes where I thought med school skimped a little when compared to dental school. Believe it or not, much of anatomy was more rigorous in dental school.

I actually think that med school could probably be compressed into about a three year program if it was run like dental school. I also think that dentists know far too little to be able to practice independently when they get out. A residency or at least a closely supervised associateship should be mandatory. Dentists deserve much more respect than they get; the work they do is difficult and can't be done by just anybody.

In short, I am glad there are dentists in the world, but I am also glad that I am no longer one of them. LOL But that's a completely other issue. I don't how long this site stores old posts but I was on here about a year or so ago if anyone wants to dig up my reasons for getting out - as I recall it wasn't taken well by a lot of people here.

Johnny Blaze, stick with it. You are going to be a great surgeon someday. I can tell from your posts you aren't cut out for IM. That scalpel will be in your hand before you know it.

you think you get more repect as an md? whos your boss- the administartor of the hospital, probably a former nurse who took a weekend management course.you can be suspended,fired, disciplined told what to do. hell when was the last time you heard a dentist have to apply for vacation leave 6 months in advance. Never.

KNOW YOUR MEDICINE. many systemic diseases appear firstly in the mouth. we are the physicians of the oral cavity.

we re our own bosses, choose our colleagues, which part of town we want to work in, working hours, vacations, fee scale, to deal with insurance or not, which patients can even enter our practice. most dentists work 4 days a week and specialists 3 days.

KNOW YOUR MATH.shorter training????? 11-12 years to be a dental specialist 14 to become an OMFS.

 

[LAZYGUY]

you think you get more repect as an md? whos your boss- the administartor of the hospital, probably a former nurse who took a weekend management course.you can be suspended,fired, disciplined told what to do. hell when was the last time you heard a dentist have to apply for vacation leave 6 months in advance. Never.

Buddy, just so you realize...MDs run hospitals. Yes MDs, when you hear about HMOs and hospital administrators, think MD, MD/MBA, MD/PhD.

KNOW YOUR MEDICINE. many systemic diseases appear firstly in the mouth. we are the physicians of the oral cavity.

Does it make you feel better to referred to as a physican? Physician-Dentist?

we re our own bosses, choose our colleagues, which part of town we want to work in, working hours, vacations, fee scale, to deal with insurance or not, which patients can even enter our practice. most dentists work 4 days a week and specialists 3 days.

Have you heard of private practice? Well over half of all physicians are in private practice full-time, and/or at least in partnership with one as well as affiliated with hospitals.

Last I checked, physicians can charge whatever the hell they want and if the patients insurance does not pay for it we just bill it to the pt. Oh and yes we too, decide if we will even take insurance. No insurance, sorry next pt! Yes we too decide how much we want to work.

Do you think we are somehow enslaved to the system?

How do you think some MDs become multi-millionares, they could care less about pts and will only take pts with money that will pay outrageous prices.

KNOW YOUR MATH.shorter training????? 11-12 years to be a dental specialist 14 to become an OMFS.

Well if you want to count "college" as your OMFS training and choose the longest path in dentistry, we too can do that.

cardiothoracic surgery = 16 years and then their are fellowships after that (pediatric cardiothoracic, add another 2-3 yrs)


The original poster was just trying to comment his experience as a Dentist becoming an MD. If you felt threatened by that post there is no reason to splash everyone with a bucket filled with your insecurites about your future profession. Just remember, it was someone from your OWN PROFESSION who was bashing it! Should tell you something...

Personally, I don't look down on anyone. Why would I look down on dentists? I do look down on people who feel they are better than others. People can get so sadistic and nasty on these boards, it really is an ugly picture of humanity.


Oh and to the poster who said that a physician saving lives is "laughable", remember that the next time you or a loved one find themselves in that situation...I wonder if you will be laughing?

 

[toofache32]

you think you get more repect as an md? whos your boss- the administartor of the hospital, probably a former nurse who took a weekend management course.you can be suspended,fired, disciplined told what to do. hell when was the last time you heard a dentist have to apply for vacation leave 6 months in advance. Never.

KNOW YOUR MEDICINE. many systemic diseases appear firstly in the mouth. we are the physicians of the oral cavity.

we re our own bosses, choose our colleagues, which part of town we want to work in, working hours, vacations, fee scale, to deal with insurance or not, which patients can even enter our practice. most dentists work 4 days a week and specialists 3 days.

KNOW YOUR MATH.shorter training????? 11-12 years to be a dental specialist 14 to become an OMFS.

What on earth are you blathering about? Physicians of the oral cavity? Give me a break. That's like "periodontal plastic surgery". You obviously have some self-esteem issues that you need to sort out.

Oh and to the poster who said that a physician saving lives is "laughable", remember that the next time you or a loved one find themselves in that situation...I wonder if you will be laughing?

I think he was talking about how very few physicians are involved with "saving lives." Maybe general surgery regularly, but not most others. It's a stupid argument anyway because we all save lives....we just don't wait until the last minute. Seems to me we don't save lives, just prolong them.

 

[egpndoc]

This is the state of mind of pre-meds. Maybe I just dont get it, or maybe they are really really weird. http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?p=2686466#post2686466

 

[superflyDO]

you think you get more repect as an md? whos your boss- the administartor of the hospital, probably a former nurse who took a weekend management course.you can be suspended,fired, disciplined told what to do. hell when was the last time you heard a dentist have to apply for vacation leave 6 months in advance. Never.

Buddy, just so you realize...MDs run hospitals. Yes MDs, when you hear about HMOs and hospital administrators, think MD, MD/MBA, MD/PhD.

KNOW YOUR MEDICINE. many systemic diseases appear firstly in the mouth. we are the physicians of the oral cavity.

Does it make you feel better to referred to as a physican? Physician-Dentist?

we re our own bosses, choose our colleagues, which part of town we want to work in, working hours, vacations, fee scale, to deal with insurance or not, which patients can even enter our practice. most dentists work 4 days a week and specialists 3 days.

Have you heard of private practice? Well over half of all physicians are in private practice full-time, and/or at least in partnership with one as well as affiliated with hospitals.

Last I checked, physicians can charge whatever the hell they want and if the patients insurance does not pay for it we just bill it to the pt. Oh and yes we too, decide if we will even take insurance. No insurance, sorry next pt! Yes we too decide how much we want to work.

Do you think we are somehow enslaved to the system?

How do you think some MDs become multi-millionares, they could care less about pts and will only take pts with money that will pay outrageous prices.

KNOW YOUR MATH.shorter training????? 11-12 years to be a dental specialist 14 to become an OMFS.

Well if you want to count "college" as your OMFS training and choose the longest path in dentistry, we too can do that.

cardiothoracic surgery = 16 years and then their are fellowships after that (pediatric cardiothoracic, add another 2-3 yrs)


The original poster was just trying to comment his experience as a Dentist becoming an MD. If you felt threatened by that post there is no reason to splash everyone with a bucket filled with your insecurites about your future profession. Just remember, it was someone from your OWN PROFESSION who was bashing it! Should tell you something...

Personally, I don't look down on anyone. Why would I look down on dentists? I do look down on people who feel they are better than others. People can get so sadistic and nasty on these boards, it really is an ugly picture of humanity.


Oh and to the poster who said that a physician saving lives is "laughable", remember that the next time you or a loved one find themselves in that situation...I wonder if you will be laughing?

I don't know why some predents get so upset when someone says something in favor of medicine and not dentistry. It's pretty crazy. Anyway, great post to respond to the physician of the oral cavity's response.

About that ninja post, I think it's terribly weird and wouldn't say that's the state of mind of pre-meds. It's the state of mind of some people out there in the general population. You my friend might have a thing or two to prove too for some ungiven reason.

 

[DDSSlave]

you think you get more repect as an md? whos your boss- the administartor of the hospital, probably a former nurse who took a weekend management course.you can be suspended,fired, disciplined told what to do. hell when was the last time you heard a dentist have to apply for vacation leave 6 months in advance. Never.

KNOW YOUR MEDICINE. many systemic diseases appear firstly in the mouth. we are the physicians of the oral cavity.

we re our own bosses, choose our colleagues, which part of town we want to work in, working hours, vacations, fee scale, to deal with insurance or not, which patients can even enter our practice. most dentists work 4 days a week and specialists 3 days.

KNOW YOUR MATH.shorter training????? 11-12 years to be a dental specialist 14 to become an OMFS.

These arguments do nothing to help explain or educate the med students and md's reading this thread about dentistry. Most physicians are self-employed or in a partnership similar to dentists and dental specialists. Dentists may have some more freedom of choice when it comes to vacation, working days, which insurances to work with, etc simply because most dentists work solo. Physicians on the other hand tend to work in group practices where they have the same decisions, but those decisions and contracts are made by the collective partnership. I think with the exception of oral surgery, it is well know that general dentistry and its specialties require a shorter time frame of education than primary care medicine and medical specialties. 4 yrs for gen dentistry. 7-8yrs for primary care medicine. 6-7 yrs for a dental specialist (excluding OMFS) and what? 8+ yrs for a medical specialist. And I would not count my undergrad yrs in my overall dental training, nor would most people.

I don't see any of these realities as making dentistry any less of a profession than medicine. I don't think any mature physicians look down on dentists either. (Possibly a minority of insecure med students, but as it's been pointed out, there are insecure dental students as well.) It's just fundamentally different.

There does seem to be a slight difference in mean salaries between general dentists and primary care doctors, probably in part due to insurance being more universal and unavoidable in primary care medicine, and increased cosmetic procedures in general dentistry. Regardless, money should not be the ultimate motivating factor in deciding your whole life/career around.

As a future dentist, I'm interested in improving patient's mouths and smiles, and honestly just want to help my patients feel good about their smiles. If I can pick up on oral cancer, aggressive infections or other life threatening conditions that's great, I'm all for being apart of the team to save a life, but that's not my daily concern. And honestly, it's not most physicians' daily concerns either. I have a pediatrician and orthopedist in my family and neither enjoy being in a (rather rare) situation where someone's life may be at risk.

I do highly respect medical specialists and oral surgeons who decide to spend their career focusing on saving lives - removing tumors, treating life threatening infections, handling massive trauma. Who doesn't? They disserve whatever money and recognition they want in my book if it's me or a loved one on the table. But for my life, that's a level of stress I'm not interested in. Give me dentistry, particularly orthodontics where I can improve patients' lives in a different way.

 

[ajmacgregor]

These arguments do nothing to help explain or educate the med students and md's reading this thread about dentistry. Most physicians are self-employed or in a partnership similar to dentists and dental specialists. Dentists may have some more freedom of choice when it comes to vacation, working days, which insurances to work with, etc simply because most dentists work solo. Physicians on the other hand tend to work in group practices where they have the same decisions, but those decisions and contracts are made by the collective partnership. I think with the exception of oral surgery, it is well know that general dentistry and its specialties require a shorter time frame of education than primary care medicine and medical specialties. 4 yrs for gen dentistry. 7-8yrs for primary care medicine. 6-7 yrs for a dental specialist (excluding OMFS) and what? 8+ yrs for a medical specialist. And I would not count my undergrad yrs in my overall dental training, nor would most people.

I don't see any of these realities as making dentistry any less of a profession than medicine. I don't think any mature physicians look down on dentists either. (Possibly a minority of insecure med students, but as it's been pointed out, there are insecure dental students as well.) It's just fundamentally different.

There does seem to be a slight difference in mean salaries between general dentists and primary care doctors, probably in part due to insurance being more universal and unavoidable in primary care medicine, and increased cosmetic procedures in general dentistry. Regardless, money should not be the ultimate motivating factor in deciding your whole life/career around.

As a future dentist, I'm interested in improving patient's mouths and smiles, and honestly just want to help my patients feel good about their smiles. If I can pick up on oral cancer, aggressive infections or other life threatening conditions that's great, I'm all for being apart of the team to save a life, but that's not my daily concern. And honestly, it's not most physicians' daily concerns either. I have a pediatrician and orthopedist in my family and neither enjoy being in a (rather rare) situation where someone's life may be at risk.

I do highly respect medical specialists and oral surgeons who decide to spend their career focusing on saving lives - removing tumors, treating life threatening infections, handling massive trauma. Who doesn't? They disserve whatever money and recognition they want in my book if it's me or a loved one on the table. But for my life, that's a level of stress I'm not interested in. Give me dentistry, particularly orthodontics where I can improve patients' lives in a different way.

Right on sister!

 

[DDSSlave]

Right on sister!

brother, and thanks

 

[GQ1]

you think you get more repect as an md? whos your boss- the administartor of the hospital, probably a former nurse who took a weekend management course.you can be suspended,fired, disciplined told what to do. hell when was the last time you heard a dentist have to apply for vacation leave 6 months in advance. Never.

Buddy, just so you realize...MDs run hospitals. Yes MDs, when you hear about HMOs and hospital administrators, think MD, MD/MBA, MD/PhD.

KNOW YOUR MEDICINE. many systemic diseases appear firstly in the mouth. we are the physicians of the oral cavity.

Does it make you feel better to referred to as a physican? Physician-Dentist?

we re our own bosses, choose our colleagues, which part of town we want to work in, working hours, vacations, fee scale, to deal with insurance or not, which patients can even enter our practice. most dentists work 4 days a week and specialists 3 days.

Have you heard of private practice? Well over half of all physicians are in private practice full-time, and/or at least in partnership with one as well as affiliated with hospitals.

Last I checked, physicians can charge whatever the hell they want and if the patients insurance does not pay for it we just bill it to the pt. Oh and yes we too, decide if we will even take insurance. No insurance, sorry next pt! Yes we too decide how much we want to work.

Do you think we are somehow enslaved to the system?

How do you think some MDs become multi-millionares, they could care less about pts and will only take pts with money that will pay outrageous prices.

KNOW YOUR MATH.shorter training????? 11-12 years to be a dental specialist 14 to become an OMFS.

Well if you want to count "college" as your OMFS training and choose the longest path in dentistry, we too can do that.

cardiothoracic surgery = 16 years and then their are fellowships after that (pediatric cardiothoracic, add another 2-3 yrs)


The original poster was just trying to comment his experience as a Dentist becoming an MD. If you felt threatened by that post there is no reason to splash everyone with a bucket filled with your insecurites about your future profession. Just remember, it was someone from your OWN PROFESSION who was bashing it! Should tell you something...

Personally, I don't look down on anyone. Why would I look down on dentists? I do look down on people who feel they are better than others. People can get so sadistic and nasty on these boards, it really is an ugly picture of humanity.


Oh and to the poster who said that a physician saving lives is "laughable", remember that the next time you or a loved one find themselves in that situation...I wonder if you will be laughing?

hahaha i like that - inferiority complex. buddy that ended in the 1980s when dentistry wasnt as hard as medicine to get it to just because it was drill, fill and extract, thats all changed. those guys will be 50 now.

so you ve never heard of leukaemia, hiv, crohns presenting clinically in the mouth?

you re all working like dentists in private offices right. yeah - nothing like getting your neurosurgery done in the penthouse of some office block. anything so life or death you re not going to be performing in some 4 room condo. you ll have to work under hospital conditions - where you re not the boss

 

[toofache32]

hahaha i like that - inferiority complex. buddy that ended in the 1980s when dentistry wasnt as hard as medicine to get it to just because it was drill, fill and extract, thats all changed. those guys will be 50 now.

so you ve never heard of leukaemia, hiv, crohns presenting clinically in the mouth?

you re all working like dentists in private offices right. yeah - nothing like getting your neurosurgery done in the penthouse of some office block. anything so life or death you re not going to be performing in some 4 room condo. you ll have to work under hospital conditions - where you re not the boss

"buddy"...you should really go back to junior high. I don't think you ever left.

 

[bigeyedfish]

I tell you why med school is easy: I passed the USMLE part I without going to the first two years of med school. All I had to do was study. 17 out of my 95 or so classmates didn't pass the step I, even with your wonderful first two years. I don't need your classes to pass that test, just a book and half my brain.

Your point that we don't do the first two years so we don't anything about med school is stupid. You're stupid for trying to make it. What are you, about a junior in the local community college?

Next, what do my "medical" coleagues think of me? Well, they know I have both degrees (technically, twice the knowledge--but who's splitting hairs?) and, at least at my hospital, they know we're the go to guys for anything between the pleura and dura.

Who does general surgery call when they need a massive carotid body tumor removed? ENT? Noooo, my friend, they speed dial OMFS. Who does peds call when they need a cranial vault reshaping for synostosis (look it up)? Plastics what? Cranio-facial who? That's right, OMFS. Who does the chairman of psych call when a family member needs their thyroid taken out? General surgery? ENT? Hell no, he call's the man, OMFS. Who does your mom call when she..., never mind, that's another topic.

What did you make on Step I?

It doesn't make any sense for you in some of your posts to downplay the value of medical education, then say having both degress is "twice the knowledge." Which is it?

 

[SteffJ]

hahaha i like that - inferiority complex. buddy that ended in the 1980s when dentistry wasnt as hard as medicine to get it to just because it was drill, fill and extract, thats all changed. those guys will be 50 now.

so you ve never heard of leukaemia, hiv, crohns presenting clinically in the mouth?

you re all working like dentists in private offices right. yeah - nothing like getting your neurosurgery done in the penthouse of some office block. anything so life or death you re not going to be performing in some 4 room condo. you ll have to work under hospital conditions - where you re not the boss

man you are so ignorant... just because a surgeon performs surgeries in a hospital, does not mean he is not his own boss. It is a waste of time to argue with someone like you. have fun in chiropractic school.

 

[airvent]

Are we bored with this yet??

The Ninja website is F'n hilarious. read the hatemail.

 

[TucsonDDS]

Not that it really matters but most of the people that run hospitals are not Physicians except for maybe smaller rural hospitals in which the physicians have a partial ownership. Most of the CEO's are just businessmen that do have the power to either fire or revoke priveledges of the physicians. Next in line at the hospital that I work at is a nurse that also has the power to make for a really crappy day for all but only a few of the top docs around here. Almost all of the doctors that I know (and I know quite a few) are in group practices, not solo practices, and although they have a lot of flexibility in what they do they are still technically employees of those practices. The other doctors that I know are basically employees of the hospitals in which they work. The couple of doctors that I know that do very well financially are in solo private practice or own the majority of the group practice in which they work. This may be different around the country and I am sure it is a lot different in small towns but this is the reality here in Tucson and I would assume in most larger cities. And as far as physicians saying no to insurance, I don't think that any fatal practice or internal med docs would be able to and keep a practice open finacially in todays atmosphere, which is really too bad. Unfortunately I just don't think that enough people care enough about their health to pay out of pocket for their healthcare. Medicine is a very noble profession but I don't think that it gets the respect it deserves anymore. Back in the day when healthcare wasn't a "right" but a priviledge physicians got a lot more respect from the general public, more in line with what they deserve.