David Newman allegations

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DrDrummer said:
Jesus. What a nightmare. I feel terrible for him, his wife (also pretty well-known in the online EM world), and everyone else connected to this atrocity of a "news" piece and case, which I hope is dismissed as soon as possible. His voice is one we need in EM, and healthcare generally, and it sucks that his name is now going to be associated with this allegation.
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<puts on tinfoil hat>
I bet you this woman was put up to it by big neurology and the tPA racket.

(for those who don't know. Newman is legendary in the EM education community, and his lifelong quest has been to make people realize how poorly done the data on tPA actually is and how any attempt to accurately measure the risk of giving tPA is pooh-poohed by neurologists)
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Angry Birds said:
But, that's the horrible thing: how the media just loves to smear doctors and take them down. There should be a law to prevent such accusations from being publicized until they are proven in a court of law. Slander/libel should apply, since it really does affect this man's ability to earn a living and put food on the table for this family. I know a doctor who got taken down in a similar way--for a similar accusation--and even though he was never convicted of anything, his career forever took a hit. He now works in urgent cares in the middle of nowhere.
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sort of restating what i just typed before, but he might come out of this fine. Newman isn't a no name doctor or even a regionally relevant doctor. He is one of the top 10 (perhaps top 5) minds in academic emergency medicine.
 
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DocEspana said:
<puts on tinfoil hat>
I bet you this woman was put up to it by big neurology and the tPA racket.

(for those who don't know. Newman is legendary in the EM education community, and his lifelong quest has been to make people realize how poorly done the data on tPA actually is and how any attempt to accurately measure the risk of giving tPA is pooh-poohed by neurologists)
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He's farther reaching than tPA. I'm not ready to jump on your Big Pharma conspiracy, but I will say that David Newman has shone light on a lot of things that powerful people would like to keep hidden.

But it seems unlikely any of that is relevant. Evidence produced should be analyzed carefully and seriously, but the story seems prima facie ridiculous.
 
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WilcoWorld said:
He's farther reaching than tPA. I'm not ready to jump on your Big Pharma conspiracy, but I will say that David Newman has shone light on a lot of things that powerful people would like to keep hidden.

But it seems unlikely any of that is relevant. Evidence produced should be analyzed carefully and seriously, but the story seems prima facie ridiculous.
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I was joking about it being a conspiracy.

But yea. I was simplifying his importance to academic medicine. He has done A LOT. And hopefully in that list of things he has done is not "glaze a patient's chin"
 
Dakota said:
One of the many reasons I like having scribes, built in chapperone. I never go anywhere without mine.
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I think thats a great point. I wonder if hospitals will ever hire scribes (or maybe even just have people who are paid "witnesses") as a preventative measure against patients making legal claims like this
 
Zebra Hunter said:
http://m.nydailynews.com/new-york/m...lly-abusing-woman-surrender-article-1.2501448

Looks like the supposed semen might have actually been his, otherwise I'm not sure why he'd have been forced to surrender. This story still sounds too absurd to be true.
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Thats bad. If the evidence does indicate he did this (not saying it does yet), my question is why would a smart man do something so obviously easy to catch in a busy ED. Clearly there are cases of sick sociopaths that act very normal, but usually they go about their crimes in a ....smarter way.
 
deltamed said:
Thats bad. If the evidence does indicate he did this (not saying it does yet), my question is why would a smart man do something so obviously easy to catch in a busy ED. Clearly there are cases of sick sociopaths that act very normal, but usually they go about their crimes in a ....smarter way.
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That's why most of us look at this from the view of normal people, and not the rabid dog pack that is the public and commenters on facebook.
Having his DNA doesn't mean he did this. It doesn't mean he didn't. Conjecturing just makes us look silly.
Go watch making a murderer if you want to conjecture.
 
Even with this new article saying he was detained, I still think there is a .01% chance he did this. How many of you work in extremely crowded EDs? How many of you order medications for nurses to give? How many of you have witnessed patients upset with their treatment and w/ mental illness who threaten to sue or make **** up?

If this goes to trial and the DNA evidence is in any way inconclusive, he walks.
 
AmericaAmerica said:
Even with this new article saying he was detained, I still think there is a .01% chance he did this. How many of you work in extremely crowded EDs? How many of you order medications for nurses to give? How many of you have witnessed patients upset with their treatment and w/ mental illness who threaten to sue or make **** up?

If this goes to trial and the DNA evidence is in any way inconclusive, he walks.
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The problem is that the allegation per se will follow him wherever he goes, regardless of his actual guilt.
 
Dr.McNinja said:
That's why most of us look at this from the view of normal people, and not the rabid dog pack that is the public and commenters on facebook.
Having his DNA doesn't mean he did this. It doesn't mean he didn't. Conjecturing just makes us look silly.
Go watch making a murderer if you want to conjecture.
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Sure. But if the sheets and towel have his DNA (and its semen) thats enough evidence to say her accusations are credible enough to put him on trial and he will likely lose his license.
 
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cbrons said:
You think they'll throw this woman in prison? I have my doubts.

And how about the custody of evidence? The police using a sample which she SAYS she gathered from the E.D. Hardly a good chain of custody (or whatever the lawyers term call it).
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where would she get a sample of his semen from though?
 
Oh_Gee said:
where would she get a sample of his semen from though?
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it doesnt say anything about finding semen. AFAIK if you just have a random fluid smeared on cloth there is no good way to figure out its semen. Its all just northern blot analysis right? so a sample of tons of semen would be euploid just like any other body fluid and not necessarily visibly different from a handful of fluids or stains on sheets. Could be totally wrong, but it just seems like "we found some sort of human dna in the supposed stains and we need his dna to see if it matches him".

could very well be her own drool on the sheet.
 
DocEspana said:
it doesnt say anything about finding semen. AFAIK if you just have a random fluid smeared on cloth there is no good way to figure out its semen. Its all just northern blot analysis right? so a sample of tons of semen would be euploid just like any other body fluid and not necessarily visibly different from a handful of fluids or stains on sheets. Could be totally wrong, but it just seems like "we found some sort of human dna in the supposed stains and we need his dna to see if it matches him".

could very well be her own drool on the sheet.
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This may be a really dumb question, but why couldn't you just put it under a (high-powered) microscope.
 
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TimesNewRoman said:
This may be a really dumb question, but why couldn't you just put it under a (high-powered) microscope.
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Probably an option, I didnt give my comment a ton of thought... just more of a "they keep not saying that they have anything that resembles semen. only that they have some dna to compare it to" and then trying to think about the difficulty of identifying truly what a random smear is on a cloth if its not clearly blood.
 
Dr.McNinja said:
Having his DNA doesn't mean he did this.
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I mean what else would you need to prove the case?

The woman claims that he abused her - Check
He personally gave the patient narcotics (what doctor goes around the ER personally administering the medications they order?) - Check
The woman claims that she wiped semen off her face with a gown - Check
There is semen in the gown - Check
The semen is his - Check

I would say she has a pretty strong case if the semen turns out to be his. His behavior as described first when the story broke out is fishy as hell. The way Dr. Sagoda and the nurse reacted also doesn't look good for him.

I hope he is innocent - and we have to presume he is until proven otherwise.

I am just referring to the hypothetical case of his semen being in the patient's gown.

My only question would be if Dr. Sagoda and the nurse noticed the semen on her face since she claims to wiping it off in the bathroom AFTER seeing them.

Regardless of the outcome, a ridiculous story. I don't know how people do such acts (again, not saying that he did).
 
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PlutoBoy said:
I mean what else would you need to prove the case?

The woman claims that he abused her - Check
He personally gave the patient narcotics (what doctor goes around the ER personally administering the medications they order?) - Check
The woman claims that she wiped semen off her face with a gown - Check
There is semen in the gown - Check
The semen is his - Check

I would say she has a pretty strong case if the semen turns out to be his. His behavior as described first when the story broke out is fishy as hell. The way Dr. Sagoda and the nurse reacted also doesn't look good for him.

I hope he is innocent - and we have to presume he is until proven otherwise.

I am just referring to the hypothetical case of his semen being in the patient's gown.

My only question would be if Dr. Sagoda and the nurse noticed the semen on her face since she claims to wiping it off in the bathroom AFTER seeing them.

Regardless of the outcome, a ridiculous story. I don't know how people do such acts (again, not saying that he did).
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You're kind of implying that he did do it with the way you word things.
IN order to prove it, there actually has to bebe means as well as motive. Means would be the difficult thing to prove.
All morphine and controlled substances in an ED are carefully monitored and generally not accessible by physicians. Nursing has to retrieve it from omnicel/pyxis/whatever system you use.
You would have to have data to show where the missing drugs came from.
Then you would have to have an expert witness to explain how you can get semen on someones face while facing the opposite direction. I dont' know about you, but I have no idea how one could accomplish such a feat. maybe if you have a penis that has a 90 degree curve?
 
Rendar5 said:
Then you would have to have an expert witness to explain how you can get semen on someones face while facing the opposite direction. I dont' know about you, but I have no idea how one could accomplish such a feat. maybe if you have a penis that has a 90 degree curve?
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That's what I was wondering but @Apollyon didn't like it.
 
Rendar5 said:
You're kind of implying that he did do it with the way you word things.
IN order to prove it, there actually has to bebe means as well as motive. Means would be the difficult thing to prove.
All morphine and controlled substances in an ED are carefully monitored and generally not accessible by physicians. Nursing has to retrieve it from omnicel/pyxis/whatever system you use.
You would have to have data to show where the missing drugs came from.
Then you would have to have an expert witness to explain how you can get semen on someones face while facing the opposite direction. I dont' know about you, but I have no idea how one could accomplish such a feat. maybe if you have a penis that has a 90 degree curve?
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I'm not implying that. I'm just saying that if the semen is his... it would be hard to explain that away.

Motive - I'm horny

Means - The patient was knocked out and alone. You do know that ER docs along with anesthesiologists are the doctors that have easier access to controlled substances, right? I'm not saying easy access, but definitely easier than the rest of us. Regardless, whether you used drugs or not you should not be ejaculating on your patients.
 
PlutoBoy said:
I'm not implying that. I'm just saying that if the semen is his... it would be hard to explain that away.

Motive - I'm horny

Means - The patient was knocked out and alone. You do know that ER docs along with anesthesiologists are the doctors that have easier access to controlled substances, right? I'm not saying easy access, but definitely easier than the rest of us. Regardless, whether you used drugs or not you should not be ejaculating on your patients.[/QUOTE
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It really wouldn't be hard to explain how it were his (which has not been shown to be the case). Jilted lover is an easy defense.
You do know you're making up about ER docs having easier access to controlled substances, though. It's honestly not true. Anaesthesiologists administer their own meds. EM physicians have nursing get their meds for them w/ the exception of stuff like lidocaine, bacitracin, or tetracaine which is sometimes lying around.

Do you mind not conjecturing in a way that is implying someones guilt at this point
 
Cannot help but think of this....

"We can all say that we're never going to commit a crime, but that doesn't mean we won't be accused of one."

Godspeed to all of you in the future currently passing judgement based upon evidence in the Daily News.
 
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The horrible thing is that he can't say a word, because HIPAA. It should really work both ways until a case is sorted out, because these things take years to sort out and we're legally not allowed to defend ourselves.
 
Rendar5 said:
It really wouldn't be hard to explain it away. Jilted lover is an easy defense.
You do know you're making up about ER docs having easier access to controlled substances, though. It's honestly not true. Anaesthesiologists administer their own meds. EM physicians have nursing get their meds for them w/ the exception of stuff like lidocaine, bacitracin, or tetracaine which is sometimes lying around.
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Again, I am playing devil's advocate here. Having seen other screwed up cases like this one I don't think it is as far fetched as some of you think.

A jilted lover showed up to the ER and got medical treatment? -She had a nurse and a doctor prescribe medications to her. So arguably she had a reason to be there. If you assume she was fine and dandy then why did she get treatment?

But okay, let's assume it is true that she is a jilted lover and somehow she tricked the doctor to treat her. Would it be okay to knock her out and ejaculate on her then? Remember that two health care providers ring a bell when they noticed that she was "not right" so she was definitely out. Whether she was overmedicated on purpose or it was just a genuine adverse reaction is irrelevant. The problem remains the same. You don't fondle and/or ejaculate on patients.

Worst case scenario, he abused an incapacitated patient. Best case scenario, he engaged in consensual sex with a patient while at work, it went wrong, and his reputation is destroyed. Either way, it sucks.

Well, let me correct that. Best case scenario is that it is all false and there is no semen on that gown. But if there is, the above applies.

Just playing devil's advocate.
 
PlutoBoy said:
I mean what else would you need to prove the case?

The woman claims that he abused her - Check
He personally gave the patient narcotics (what doctor goes around the ER personally administering the medications they order?) - Check
The woman claims that she wiped semen off her face with a gown - Check
There is semen in the gown - Check
The semen is his - Check

I would say she has a pretty strong case if the semen turns out to be his. His behavior as described first when the story broke out is fishy as hell. The way Dr. Sagoda and the nurse reacted also doesn't look good for him.

I hope he is innocent - and we have to presume he is until proven otherwise.

I am just referring to the hypothetical case of his semen being in the patient's gown.

My only question would be if Dr. Sagoda and the nurse noticed the semen on her face since she claims to wiping it off in the bathroom AFTER seeing them.

Regardless of the outcome, a ridiculous story. I don't know how people do such acts (again, not saying that he did).
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We have no confirmed proof from the police that his semen was ever on the gown to begin with.

If it was, well then, cool, he's guilty and made a huge mistake.

But I've dealt with a ****load of crazy patients that have straight up made up things in the past, so until I have physical evidence of what sounds to be completely absurd, I'm going to assume innocence. Who ejaculates on a girl's face in a crowded ER where people are running about constantly and anyone could come in at any time? I'm not saying it's impossible, but it's incredibly shortsighted of a guy to do that has the critical thinking capacity of the accused.

He would also no doubt have a record of pulling morphine, so there's that. And I can't imagine a guy like himself would just give a girl a second dose of morphine all willy-nilly as they claim to have happened, since she (assumedly) would not have a tolerance and it could easily depress her respiratory drive and kill her.
 
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PlutoBoy said:
Again, I am playing devil's advocate here. Having seen other screwed up cases like this one I don't think it is as far fetched as some of you think.

A jilted lover showed up to the ER and got medical treatment? -She had a nurse and a doctor prescribe medications to her. So arguably she had a reason to be there. If you assume she was fine and dandy then why did she get treatment?

But okay, let's assume it is true that she is a jilted lover and somehow she tricked the doctor to treat her. Would it be okay to knock her out and ejaculate on her then? Remember that two health care providers ring a bell when they noticed that she was "not right" so she was definitely out. Whether she was overmedicated on purpose or it was just a genuine adverse reaction is irrelevant. The problem remains the same. You don't fondle and/or ejaculate on patients.

Worst case scenario, he abused an incapacitated patient. Best case scenario, he engaged in consensual sex with a patient while at work, it went wrong, and his reputation is destroyed. Either way, it sucks.

Well, let me correct that. Best case scenario is that it is all false and there is no semen on that gown. But if there is, the above applies.

Just playing devil's advocate.
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If you have to say "i'm not racist, but..." you're racist. If you have to say "i'm not implying anything, but" then you're implying it. You're not playing devil's advocate, you're arguing that he did something wrong and then hiding behind a statement that makes it seem like you're intellectualizing it.

And you obviously didn't understand the whole jilted lover thing, so I'm not even going to explain it more because you'll just make more inane arguments about it
 
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Mad Jack said:
We have no confirmed proof from the police that his semen was ever on the gown to begin with.

If it was, well then, cool, he's guilty and made a huge mistake.

But I've dealt with a ****load of crazy patients that have straight up made up things in the past, so until I have physical evidence of what sounds to be completely absurd, I'm going to assume innocence. Who ejaculates on a girl's face in a crowded ER where people are running about constantly and anyone could come in at any time? I'm not saying it's impossible, but it's incredibly shortsighted of a guy to do that has the critical thinking capacity of the accused.

He would also no doubt have a record of pulling morphine, so there's that. And I can't imagine a guy like himself would just give a girl a second dose of morphine all willy-nilly as they claim to have happened, since she (assumedly) would not have a tolerance and it could easily depress her respiratory drive and kill her.
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There is no confirmed proof of this. I agree with you. This is why all I have said is that IF THERE IS SEMEN ON THE GOWN then it looks pretty bad.

Don't get too worked up about this, people.

With regards to your questions:

A) Who ejaculates on a girl's face in a crowded ER? An impaired person.
B) Who gives morphine willy-nilly? A person with criminal intent.

I'm not saying that he did it but it is not impossible to do if you have criminal intentions. I don't know why so many people misinterpret what I am saying.

I sincerely hope it is not true for his sake, his family, the patients he took care of, and our profession. Peace.
 
Rendar5 said:
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If you have to say "i'm not racist, but..." you're racist. If you have to say "i'm not implying anything, but" then you're implying it. You're not playing devil's advocate, you're arguing that he did something wrong and then hiding behind a statement that makes it seem like you're intellectualizing it.

And you obviously didn't understand the whole jilted lover thing, so I'm not even going to explain it more because you'll just make more inane arguments about it
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No, I'm not saying that just because you say I am. It's not my fault that you can't understand a basic argument.
 
People say a lot of things.

Innocent until proven guilty...
 
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PlutoBoy said:
There is no confirmed proof of this. I agree with you. This is why all I have said is that IF THERE IS SEMEN ON THE GOWN then it looks pretty bad.

Don't get too worked up about this, people.

With regards to your questions:

A) Who ejaculates on a girl's face in a crowded ER? An impaired person.
B) Who gives morphine willy-nilly? A person with criminal intent.

I'm not saying that he did it but it is not impossible to do if you have criminal intentions. I don't know why so many people misinterpret what I am saying.

I sincerely hope it is not true for his sake, his family, the patients he took care of, and our profession. Peace.
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You seem only slightly less crazy than the woman in the Daily News article (assuming you both actually exist).
 
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How did he get the morphine out of the Pyxis himself? There are safety measures in place and most hospitals do not allow physicians to pull medications from the Pyxis themselves.

Just because a second victim came forward does not prove he did this. Someone could've read the news and seen an opportunity to accuse him of doing something in order to form the basis of a lawsuit (i.e., monetary intentions).
 
gutonc said:
You seem only slightly less crazy than the woman in the Daily News article (assuming you both actually exist).
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You are such a fan ;)
 
southerndoc said:
How did he get the morphine out of the Pyxis himself? There are safety measures in place and most hospitals do not allow physicians to pull medications from the Pyxis themselves.

Just because a second victim came forward does not prove he did this. Someone could've read the news and seen an opportunity to accuse him of doing something in order to form the basis of a lawsuit (i.e., monetary intentions).
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The second case will be nothing but a he said/she said situation whether it is true or not.
 
southerndoc said:
How did he get the morphine out of the Pyxis himself? There are safety measures in place and most hospitals do not allow physicians to pull medications from the Pyxis themselves.

Just because a second victim came forward does not prove he did this. Someone could've read the news and seen an opportunity to accuse him of doing something in order to form the basis of a lawsuit (i.e., monetary intentions).
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The accuser says he gave her morphine. It may not be true. However, if there is a doctor's semen on her gown morphine or no morphine we have a problem.

I only hope that if it turns out to be false that she gets at least two years in jail. This is not a joke.
 
Hey PlutoBoy, serious question. Who are you and where did you come from? Best I can tell from your posting history is that you spend all day f*cking with people on SDN. I'll stay out of your way, it's all good bruh, etc. Just curious who you are. You suddenly appeared on our board like a giant turd from the sky.
 
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A few things. We don't know that what he gave her was morphine, patients barely know their daily medications. In the ED you often tune out the background noise to get through your work and focus on your own patients. Obvious events like seizures, falls, loud disruptive patient can break that absorption, a doctor with a syringe probably wouldn't register. I doubt they would have charged him if they didn't have something. I mean the SVU definitely can identify semen, they do it all damn day. A doctor at the top of his field is a pretty sympathetic character that you don't go after in court unless you have some evidence. The fact that there is a second accuser certainly does not help him, in these cases there is often a pattern. If in our bias we are willing to assume the accusers are capable of such vindictive deceit, perhaps we can allow that the accused could also be capable of despicable acts. People with high moral standing have been known to do this; judges, priests, doctors, professors etc. We can only hope he didn't do this, for his family's sake and for the sake of the profession.
 
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Jlaw said:
She claimed that she went to the bathroom and saw remnants of semen on her face and chest which she wiped off with a towel and kept, she also kept the sheet she said he wiped it off with. NYPD interviewed him and took a DNA sample today to compare so we will know if its true in a couple days. They aren't planning to charge him until the sample comes back. So one of them will be going to jail pretty soon.
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There is no way the patient would be sent to prison or even be charged with a crime for this. It would just get written off as her having hallucinations due to the narcotics.
 
southerndoc said:
How did he get the morphine out of the Pyxis himself? There are safety measures in place and most hospitals do not allow physicians to pull medications from the Pyxis themselves.

Just because a second victim came forward does not prove he did this. Someone could've read the news and seen an opportunity to accuse him of doing something in order to form the basis of a lawsuit (i.e., monetary intentions).
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I agree, the second accusation simply does not hold much credence without any sort of corroboration. She came in with a viral infection, he could have simply been palpating her axillary lymph nodes and copped a bit of side boob which happened to make her feel uncomfortable and she saw this as her chance to come forward and be like "yeah he fondled me too!", meanwhile it was actually a completely legitimate examination. Of course she might be telling the truth too, I'm just saying her testimony is not really worth much because of the obvious ambiguity of such a situation. Like others have said this really completely comes down to the semen on the towel and that's it. If it's his, he's guilty and goes deservingly to jail, if it's not then he's innocent and some heads need to roll for ruining his career over some bs accusation.
 
hoot504 said:
Hey PlutoBoy, serious question. Who are you and where did you come from? Best I can tell from your posting history is that you spend all day f*cking with people on SDN. I'll stay out of your way, it's all good bruh, etc. Just curious who you are. You suddenly appeared on our board like a giant turd from the sky.
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I stick to the SPF forum and to a lesser extent the IM forums.
 
EpiStatus said:
If in our bias we are willing to assume the accusers are capable of such vindictive deceit, perhaps we can allow that the accused could also be capable of despicable acts.
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This.

In before the clone account accusations.
 
I'm luck if during a shift if I have 20 second to pee in the bathroom by myself.

Let alone:
get a controlled med
sneak into a patients room
titrate to procedural sedation level by myself on a probably non-monitored patient (shoulder pain)
then re-arrange the room
get an erection
masturabate (away from the target?)
ejaculate
then keep the patients respiratory status at adequate levels
and keep the nurses away so they don't see the ejaculate on her face

oh and not get interrupted once for a dam dilaudid verbal request from a nurse, the clerk for an call waiting, the nurse wanting to get vitals, the volunteer offering the patient food, the clerk trying to register the patient, or the patient's family showing up

Oh and now apparently do this TWICE, and get caught neither time.

Right.....
 
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Patients bring false accusations of incompetence against doctors for money all the time. Just saying.

I hope for everyone's sake that this is just a new and creative attempt at extortion. The story sounds ridiculous, for the reasons in the last post.

If there is physical evidence he is toast.


Regardless, this should be a reminder to everyone that in today's workplace climate you need to have a really good firewall between your professional and personal lives.
 
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link2swim06 said:
I'm luck if during a shift if I have 20 second to pee in the bathroom by myself.

Let alone:
get a controlled med
sneak into a patients room
titrate to procedural sedation level by myself on a probably non-monitored patient (shoulder pain)
then re-arrange the room
get an erection
masturabate (away from the target?)
ejaculate
then keep the patients respiratory status at adequate levels
and keep the nurses away so they don't see the ejaculate on her face

oh and not get interrupted once for a dam dilaudid verbal request from a nurse, the clerk for an call waiting, the nurse wanting to get vitals, the volunteer offering the patient food, the clerk trying to register the patient, or the patient's family showing up

Oh and now apparently do this TWICE, and get caught neither time.

Right.....
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Lol. True.

The DA is claiming that he must have had a stash of morphine :rofl:

Take a look at the video on this link:

http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2016/01/19/mount-sinai-doctor-david-newman-sex-abuse/
 
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