Canadian Interested in Australian Med Schools

[TheShowGoesOn]

It's possible they will make bigger changes in the near future. I have heard similar rumblings. The ochsner side of admissions has already drastically gone up in the standards they have set. First bringing in interviews and then increasing the MCAT score each year for 3 years straight. I can see the international side of admissions slowly catching up. They are receiving more and more applications each year as the program becomes better known (at least on the ochsner side). I don't think they are having issues with meeting quota currently. Thats why tuition keeps going up as well each year with no drop off in demand. Medical school degrees still seem to be relatively in-elastic as a commodity. But again that would be just a guess as I don't have any numbers to go off of.

Lots of speculation i'm sure. At the end of the day, they want to fill spots. I can see the Oschsner program setting higher standards because the program is geared towards the US system. I can see the other program perhaps adding in interviews, but even then... interviewing X amount of people (i'd postulate that number being around 700?) would take tremendous amounts of time and resources. The GPA of 5.0 has been that way for years as far as I can tell. Perhaps a higher MCAT or GAMSAT score. I guess we'll see. As somebody who is looking to apply for 2020 matriculation I sure hope things don't change too much

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[Laetare]

Lots of speculation i'm sure. At the end of the day, they want to fill spots. I can see the Oschsner program setting higher standards because the program is geared towards the US system. I can see the other program perhaps adding in interviews, but even then... interviewing X amount of people (i'd postulate that number being around 700?) would take tremendous amounts of time and resources. The GPA of 5.0 has been that way for years as far as I can tell. Perhaps a higher MCAT or GAMSAT score. I guess we'll see. As somebody who is looking to apply for 2020 matriculation I sure hope things don't change too much

UQ recently raised the MCAT cutoff by 5 points, which is 14 percentiles. I have sent them an email asking if any more changes are planned for 2020. I will report any pertinent information here.

 

[Domperidone]

UQ recently raised the MCAT cutoff by 5 points, which is 14 percentiles. I have sent them an email asking if any more changes are planned for 2020. I will report any pertinent information here.

View attachment 232140

Right....
Why post here? You can create your own thread too. Saves some scrolling and isn't as distracting with what's going on the rest of the thread. It's an anonymous forum anyway

So. If you don't get UQ you can apply to other schools, you know that right? There are those with even lower standards in Australia. I really don't get why anyone freaks out about getting in to an Australian school as a full fee paying off shore student. In sense that they don't really care when its about profits. Don't over think it. Seriously. If you want an easy in you will get it.

 

[mcat_taker]

UQ recently raised the MCAT cutoff by 5 points, which is 14 percentiles. I have sent them an email asking if any more changes are planned for 2020. I will report any pertinent information here.

View attachment 232140

They went up from 499 to 504 gradually in 3-4 years with slight increases each year. They didn't increase it 5 points overnight. They won't be able to tell you changes to 2020 as they are only focused on 2019 for now-- they don't know what the following year will bring. Will depend on their yield with these numbers.

And this is only for Ochsner cohort within UQ**

 

[sean80439]

Pretty sure UQ already has the highest GAMSAT cutoff requirement for domestic students.

 

[Domperidone]

Pretty sure UQ already has the highest GAMSAT cutoff requirement for domestic students.

Sorry, I don't follow (?)
I'm not trying to be nit picky, I just literally don't know how we got to domestic requirements suddenly.

Point on UQO I kinda get.

But different quotas and different requirements for full fee paying traditional v.s. domestic CSP. Especially if they're going after a CSP, the stakes are higher. Considering the government subsidizes it so they pay only 10k per year. Student contribution amounts - Study Assist. It's a pretty much a scholarship program. UQ does have bonded spots, but they're much fewer and UQ doesn't not have full fee paying domestic spots. A CSP domestic is a completely different type of candidate, and that is the primary type of domestic student at UQ. If you were to survey the number of honors students at UQ, I'm fairly sure the majority of them would be domestic-CSP and not international or bonded. the other schools tend to have greater mixes. even University of Melbourne has full fee paying domestic spots, but UQ does not.

My point anyway is that full fee paying fulfills a different purpose for the universities and so there's no point in worrying about selection criteria if you're going to be full fee paying. the premeds are asking about MCAT, so they're definitely not domestic. Standards are not about academics for internationals, not like it is for domestics.

I do wish they would raise the bar for internationals - versus taking money at exorbitant rates, knowing some of them will either fail or repeat, requiring them to spend even more. It's $12-15 000 per rotation repeated. $25-30k per semester in the pre-clinical years. $3000-5000 per "course". There was one case where this one student repeated at least 2 if not 3 years. Kudos for persistence and finally getting a degree, but they end up another $100 000+ in debt. No guarantee you'll get a job, or that you won't get the axe if you do. For some students, repeating means failing due to what restrictions their particular loan has. They're not allowed to repeat. So it means they have to drop out and repay whatever cost they already accrued. I remember clearly getting these emails from both UQO and UQ traditional students. Then never seeing or hearing from them again, because it's extremely rare for UQ to change a grade even with appeal.

If not UQ, there's plenty of other schools in Australia, you all come out the same. Australian medical school educated.

It's not ethical if you ask me, what they're doing here with selection criteria for internationals. It's almost predatory on the dreams that people have and the average being 23 at entry, means they're young and probably not a little naive (which is fine - except most don't have the capacity to really question what's going on or simply aren't jaded enough to care). They get away with it because the universities themselves can wash their hands clean of all the students after grad (or after they fail them). It then becomes someone else's problems. They aren't the ones that apply for jobs, and certainly don't lobby for jobs. They don't have anything to do with training residents. I suppose it's what makes it a truly great money making machine, and the label 'med school' has a lot of prestige to it. So, you never have problems with demand. It's genius. I'd like to think I have a conscience though.

But, if getting in to a med school in Australia as a full fee paying international is the primary worry that a premed has, there's an easy solution to it.
Just apply.

You'll have bigger things to worry about later, but this is literally going to be the most painless part of the whole process. Enjoy it.

 

[Laetare]

In sense that they don't really care when its about profits. Don't over think it. Seriously. If you want an easy in you will get it.

I am less concerned about getting in than paying for it. The University of Queensland is one of the few Australian schools which participate in the US Federal government's loan program for medical students. I was previously offered admission to another Australian medical program but was unpleasantly surprised not to be approved for a private loan. Of the schools still offering Federal loans, Sydney will stop after 2020, Flinders has told me they will decide at an undetermined date whether to continue, and Adelaide won't admit people with a previous degree.

I suppose that the relatively large number of American students in the traditional and Ochsner programs makes compliance with the US government's whims sufficiently profitable for UQ.

 

[sean80439]

Sydney has always been an iffy. When I applied back in 2014 I got the 'well... we don't know how long we will offer it or if it'll be available this year....'

 

[Domperidone]

I am less concerned about getting in than paying for it. The University of Queensland is one of the few Australian schools which participate in the US Federal government's loan program for medical students. I was previously offered admission to another Australian medical program but was unpleasantly surprised not to be approved for a private loan. Of the schools still offering Federal loans, Sydney will stop after 2020, Flinders has told me they will decide at an undetermined date whether to continue, and Adelaide won't admit people with a previous degree.

I suppose that the relatively large number of American students in the traditional and Ochsner programs makes compliance with the US government's whims sufficiently profitable for UQ.

What are your stats?
(I probably can't offer much advising as I'm of a different era now - like I don't know anything about the new MCAT, but the current students in here can). Remember it is anonymous. Just lay it all out.

Again, I'd suggest a new thread as we're off topic, the title of this thread has Canadian in it lol and now we're talking US federal loans.

If it's an MCAT issue, retake it. For UQ trad they do rolling apps, it's harder to apply by October as quota gets closer to filling. But if you apply around July it should be fine. Which gives you about another month or so to figure out what you did wrong and try again. Otherwise you risk another year of waiting around. Which may or may not be a bad thing either. Just note that you cannot transfer to UQO from UQ traditional.

It's accurate re: MCAT going up for UQO. The popularity goes up as it becomes more established. Avrg scores of matriculants goes up every year. Australia - U.S. Medical School. They are also toughening up on this cohort taking the steps in time and that MCAT is a protective feature. It's in the cohort & UQO's best interests for you to be somewhat reliable at taking standardized exams. I've seen med students stressed, then there's the UQO cohort Step 1 stress.

It's bit tough to use UQO to make presumptions about UQ trad. So grain of salt, because we're talking a uniquely Australian-American program, that requires taking the Step 1. Versus UQ trad which is largely Canadian and Singaporean, for whom things like board exams are not a requisite like it is for UQO - it's take them at your own risk. But there's no data that is published about UQ trad, not like there is for UQO, so we're left with only UQO class information.

As I mentioned. The idea is profit for international full fee paying students. They recruit you to pay $$$ in tuition. That is the trade off. If you can't pay you sorta don't fit the purpose. It's pretty cold, but it is what it is. (NB this would only be partly true of UQO).

Good luck with UQ

What's your alternative? Caribbean?
Are you aiming to stay in Australia or take the Steps and pursue residency in the US?

 

[jedrek]

Sorry, I don't follow (?)
I'm not trying to be nit picky, I just literally don't know how we got to domestic requirements suddenly.
I do wish they would raise the bar for internationals - versus taking money at exorbitant rates, knowing some of them will either fail or repeat, requiring them to spend even more. It's $12-15 000 per rotation repeated. $25-30k per semester in the pre-clinical years. $3000-5000 per "course". There was one case where this one student repeated at least 2 if not 3 years. Kudos for persistence and finally getting a degree, but they end up another $100 000+ in debt. No guarantee you'll get a job, or that you won't get the axe if you do. For some students, repeating means failing due to what restrictions their particular loan has. They're not allowed to repeat. So it means they have to drop out and repay whatever cost they already accrued. I remember clearly getting these emails from both UQO and UQ traditional students. Then never seeing or hearing from them again, because it's extremely rare for UQ to change a grade even with appeal.

Talking about this, I am genuinely curious about the fail/repeat rate among FFP international students in medical schools,is the figure something that should discourage students from applying for medical school?
Failing/Repeating a year usually bombs about $70+k of money and this is something that I wanted to find out prior to applying for medical school in Australia.

 

[sean80439]

Talking about this, I am genuinely curious about the fail/repeat rate among FFP international students in medical schools,is the figure something that should discourage students from applying for medical school?
Failing/Repeating a year usually bombs about $70+k of money and this is something that I wanted to find out prior to applying for medical school in Australia.

No. This shouldn't be a concern; if you are prepared for med school you shouldn't ever be in that situation. And you will resit exams if you fail. In my year, I think maybe only 1-2 people out of the 500ish in the whole cohort got a grade that was considered failing where they couldn't resit. They aren't failing FFP students because they want more money. Nobody knows who you are when you get your grade. The fail/repeat rate at UQ I think is very similar to most major med schools in the US/Canada too. I use UQ because I went there and it was discussed during orientation.

 

[Domperidone]

No. This shouldn't be a concern; if you are prepared for med school you shouldn't ever be in that situation. And you will resit exams if you fail. In my year, I think maybe only 1-2 people out of the 500ish in the whole cohort got a grade that was considered failing where they couldn't resit. They aren't failing FFP students because they want more money. Nobody knows who you are when you get your grade. The fail/repeat rate at UQ I think is very similar to most major med schools in the US/Canada too. I use UQ because I went there and it was discussed during orientation.

Agree with the sentiment.
Disagree with the stats, and hey, I graduated from UQ too but did the medsoc or student council thing. Lol does it mean I'm an expert or faculty? No. I'll have biases too in the responses I give - but just bear in mind what your sources are as premeds (students, grads, business agencies etc.) Everyone will have a different perspective based on their experience

Take a grain of salt from these threads - premeds reading these. I doubt this conversation is going to change the minds of anyone who has decided to go off-shore. I'd be surprised if any premeds even remembers this stuff a year or months from now. It may not always sound that way, but I'm grateful that questions are asked and that you guys as premeds are thinking about things.

So, the question jedrek had isn't merely failing out. But cost and repeating.

Stats are 5-10% per yr that fails per course or per rotation. 5 rotations per year, 100 students on any one rotation that goes through UQ. Of that perecentage some will sit a supplemental exam. I don't know the number unable to pass the resit or not offered a resit at all (yea it can.be that harsh). It is not 1-2 per year lol. This number does accumulate over 4 yrs, irony is that it translate to extra intern spots later for regular starting interns.

Would that it were. It would have been less work for me, and I'm sure less work for Jenny Schafer. Less of a nightmare for the students. I wouldn't brush them off as numbers they were people. They didn't intend to fail and some never saw it coming.

Does faculty intend to fail students? No.
That wasn't what I was implying. Faculty is separate from UQ in the sense of finances and quota. Some express that they wish UQ wasn't large and that the course is meant for 200 students. Not 550-600. What can be an issue is Australian faculty is Australian. They've no idea international UQ trad students pay so much or UQO even more than everyone else at 90k USD annually.

It is not as surprising when students resit or repeat preclinical years. With some exceptions. Rotations are the ones frequently catch people off. Because the live exams are highly subjective. You get used to this and to an extent it's part of the culture and "the game" you learn to adapt to. In the sense that no two doctors will agree on a particular diagnosis. Similarly for some stations your grade by one examiner could be 80% and the other will give you 50%. Even it's not something to lose sleep over, just consider that some things will be out of your control. It's not always reflective of your own abilities, but you can safeguard things by consistently working hard. It is tempting to become too relaxed in Australia.

Mind you UQO rotations are conducted differently on the day to day than UQ Trad. Same rules never apply. One year one rotation coordinator commented (perplexed) at the fact that on avrg UQO students did worse that UQ in Australia (domestics and internationals combined) on their rotation, but UQO student satisfaction rates were far higher. He forgot the fact that some 4th yr Australian rotations are done in 3rd yr for UQO and had no idea that you do so much more as student in the US. Faculty can be so clueless - not all of course, some were very supportive and helpful.

Anyway no one intends to fail. Faculty doesnt intend to fail you but they don't always realize how much the university will charge you. Should they? I don't know.

Failure stats - depends on if you are a glass half full or half empty.

I would say take med school seriously as the take home. It sounds obvious but you'd be surprised. Australian culture is laidback and relaxed in general, it's tempting to fall into that especially when you're studying with domestic Aussies with job guarantees. Most of them will have done 3 years of biomed or premed courses at UQ.

Some internationals fall into the trap of thinking getting into school easily means med school isn't challenging and that they'll breeze through all their exams. I'm sure you would if you have prior graduate degrees in human physio or anatomy etc. But that's not everyone.

I actually prefer to scare premeds now. Rather than you actually suffer the consequences later - because it is going to be harsh if there are any. Does it mean you can't be a doctor or will be a bad one - not neccessarily at all.

If there is selection criteria by schools, it's often for your protection and benefit. As well as to protect the school - failing students is tremendous work. It's not about getting in the way of your future.

N.B. have edited for clarifications

 

[mcat_taker]

Talking about this, I am genuinely curious about the fail/repeat rate among FFP international students in medical schools,is the figure something that should discourage students from applying for medical school?
Failing/Repeating a year usually bombs about $70+k of money and this is something that I wanted to find out prior to applying for medical school in Australia.

Well technically you would be failing a semester not a year, so to repeat the semester is 31K roughly plus living expenses. But like Sean said, you can resit exams you failed usually, provided everything else is in order. And like Dom mentioned only 5 percent usually require this supp so roughly 20-30 people out of 500.

So it is statistically unlikely, although medicine is hard anywhere so you will still need to work. Although I find that it is a bit self selecting in that people who come here are pretty studious regardless of their stats on entry, with the few exceptions here and there.

Bottom line, it is not a figure that should prevent you from applying unless you think your background is severely lacking in science.

 

[sean80439]

If you fail a semester in Y1 or Y2, you have to restart the year though. In Y3 and Y4 pending the change actually happens (which is likely), you'll have to repeat the semester instead of the rotation.

Also, I think you tend to have more people fail rotations - I would say that 5-10% is probably more accurate for rotations. When we would get test statistics back showing number of students that got whatever percentage below a 3 (outright fail) it was single digits.

 

[Domperidone]

If you fail a semester in Y1 or Y2, you have to restart the year though. In Y3 and Y4 pending the change actually happens (which is likely), you'll have to repeat the semester instead of the rotation.

They've been discussing the change for years. and saying it's likely for years. Great if it happens. There was a lot of discussion that went in by staff and students - it's meant provide safeguards and better resit opportunities. If they bring in the elective, easier to repeat without getting stuck with graduating mid yr to abysmal job opportunities.

 

[sean80439]

They've been discussing the change for years. and saying it's likely for years. Great if it happens. There was a lot of discussion that went in by staff and students - it's meant provide safeguards and better resit opportunities. If they bring in the elective, easier to repeat without getting stuck with graduating mid yr to abysmal job opportunities.

Oh no, it's happening next year. It was already approved apparently.

When are these changes being introduced?
These changes will be introduced to both Year 3 and Year 4 in 2019.
The structural changes will be introduced in both Year 3 and Year 4 at the same time. The reason for this is the different course patterns for UQ-Ochsner and onshore students in Years 3 and 4 that does not allow changes to be made sequentially. As shown in table 2, Ochsner students undertake Paediatrics and O&G in year 3, while doing GP and MiS in Year 4. This means that we cannot run versions of courses of different footprint at the same time – and hence changes need to be introduced to Year 3 and 4 simultaneously.

I am a current Year 4 student; how will these changes affect me?
If you complete your program in 2018, these changes will not affect you. If you are a current Year 4 student and do not complete your program in 2018, you will be able to continue to enrol in the current Year 4 courses in the 8-week rotation model. There may be minor changes to the duration of teaching activities in 2019, but we will ensure that teaching and assessment is consistent with the current Year 4 courses.

I am a current Year 3 student; how will these changes affect me?
If you are entering Year 4 for the first time in 2019, you will enrol in the new semester-long courses. To ensure you benefit from the improved teaching and learning experience, special arrangements to manage the introduction of changes to assessment and progression will be introduced.
Transition arrangements for Year 4 students in 2019 include:
• The criteria required to pass the Year 4 Workplace Learning Portfolio course will take into consideration this is a new form of assessment, and will not include summative assessment of workplace-based assessments
• Workplace based-assessment will continue to be assessed as part of the clinical courses, as they are currently
• If you have only one clinical course remaining to complete your program at the end of 2019, you will be able to undertake this in the first 8 weeks of 2020 (equivalent to medical rotation 1). This is the same as the current arrangement in that you will complete your program in March ready for late intern start in April.

I am a current Phase 1 student; how will these changes affect me?
From 2019, all students commencing in Phase 2 will undertake the new semester-long courses and benefit from the integrated approach to teaching and introduction of longitudinal assessment with the Workplace Learning Portfolio courses

 

[Domperidone]

As I said, great if it finally happens. Water off a duck's back if it doesn't. I was around when it was approved the first time then didn't occur at the very last minute. There were even petitions by students who hated the idea. Bit dramatic when the new curriculum was meant to be more protective and beneficial. For many different reasons.

I remember the nuances and promises made. It's a very long awaited change and one that was meant for the better that came out of staff and students.

As with many things at UQ and every public service profession. We used to joke UQ prepares you for Qhealth.

Sorry I must sound quite jaded but a lot of things have become so "normal" I forget it may not be the case for everyone.

Many of the colleges and trainees go through similar things. Whatever ups and downs and changes occur (or don't occur last minute) as a student don't end after you grad. The RACP is going through it's own tumultuous time now, RACS did like 2 yrs now.

 

[mcat_taker]

If you fail a semester in Y1 or Y2, you have to restart the year though. In Y3 and Y4 pending the change actually happens (which is likely), you'll have to repeat the semester instead of the rotation.

Also, I think you tend to have more people fail rotations - I would say that 5-10% is probably more accurate for rotations. When we would get test statistics back showing number of students that got whatever percentage below a 3 (outright fail) it was single digits.

Ok I see what you mean. I meant that if you fail a course in phase 1 you only retake that course, but because that semester is only offered in either spring or fall you need to wait an entire year to start the course up again so you fall a year behind. You aren't however, paying 70k you are paying 31k to repeat the semester.

And yes I wasn't talking about below a 3. Almost everyone gets a 3 who fails. It's basically unheard of to get below that unless you just didn't sit the exam at all.

But roughly 5 percent each semester gets the 3 and needs to supp at least in phase 1. Majority of that 5 percent who failed pass the supplemental exam. So no, 5 percent of the class doesn't fail each semester. But we only see stats each term on how many people got a 3 so I can't extrapolate on post supplemental exam pass rates.

 

[Domperidone]

No 5-10% for preclinical yrs too. In my time. That was reported by faculty. But that's combined resit or no resit. Closer to 10% for rotations with high subjectivity of live exams. People do get 2s, particularly with live exams. It's not unheard of.

This stuff isn't talked about much for obvious reason - stigma, shame etc. It probably should be.

What year are guys in again?

 

[sean80439]

I'm done in 6months barring no insane things. I believe mcat_taker is a year behind.

As far as stats go, this is going off of their BB announcements based on how they determined grades from my preclinical years. Maybe it was different for your class? Rotations definitely have a higher resit percentage, but that's partly because of how subjective things are.

edit: Yeah I also don't equate resitting an exam to failing the course. There might be 5-10% that resit, but to fail outright or to fail the resit is far lower percentage it seems like for preclinicals. For clinical years - we definitely have students regularly retaking a rotation. That's not unheard of, though it will change next year - and I would agree with that 10% number wholeheartedly.

 

[jedrek]

Thanks for your responses,guys.

I was worried about this after hearing from a friend that students usually fail the rotations in 3rd/4th yr. Being someone that is weak in hands-on,but strong in theory,I am more concerned with the fail rate of the clinicals. For me,I correspond to Sean's answer on fail being equivalent to repeat the year,after failing the supplementary exams,because that is the point where students have to commit more finances and time.

My friend in University of Newcastle Medical School,talks about his school having no resits after failing,sounds pretty brutal and punitive for having to come back for a semester. He also told me that of the people who failed, the fail(repeat) rate of internationals are a lot lower than the locals, so I am guessing it's <5%?

 

[sean80439]

Complacency is your biggest enemy in Australia.

 

[Domperidone]

Thanks for your responses,guys.

I was worried about this after hearing from a friend that students usually fail the rotations in 3rd/4th yr. Being someone that is weak in hands-on,but strong in theory,I am more concerned with the fail rate of the clinicals. For me,I correspond to Sean's answer on fail being equivalent to repeat the year,after failing the supplementary exams,because that is the point where students have to commit more finances and time.

My friend in University of Newcastle Medical School,talks about his school having no resits after failing,sounds pretty brutal and punitive for having to come back for a semester. He also told me that of the people who failed, the fail(repeat) rate of internationals are a lot lower than the locals, so I am guessing it's <5%?

Other way around. internationals more prone to repeat. But it's not based on stats - experience and anecdotal.

Just because you are granted resit does not always mean you'll pass either.

Again, point is not to be anxious about it but to take your studies seriously. And when you are on rotations - take feedback seriously as you go. It's not particularly conducive to being hands on but they will have expectations of you and how quickly you respond to feedback.

It's not a bad thing necessarily with repeats or fails.
If it turns out to be no surprise to the student involved, and at least a proportion of the time it's not fluke. Again we're talking about low selection criteria (because the schools need the money).

So you get this black box of students coming in. Most are going to be fine. But there's always that 1/10 that will fail something in medical school - it's 4 years with dozens of courses. You will know someone who failed something by the end of medical school.

For instance, some students coming in will have great GPAs and MCAT scores, but could never get past an interview. So they'll end up at a school without interviews. This may or may not come back to haunt them on rotations (i.e. if you come across as excessively awkward, arrogant or shy). Or your GPA/MCAT were crap. If you it was because of poor discipline so long as you recognized it and turn it around it's possible to do well. But you're always going to get students who don't learn to change study habits and it's very easy to lose sight of this as you get on in Australia. Opportunities are no different to any offshore school.

Don't think of it as the system working against you either. if that makes sense.
Repeats aren't meant to be 'punitive' entirely, just that they happen to be that way financially because it's not a fully ethical system that we're left with. (I.e. full fee paying, no job guarantee, very low selection criteria, it's just not a great mix - but it's not the fault of faculty either that did not choose this).

Domestics are treated the same as internationals.
And in a place like Australia, legitimately they also have a domestic cohort that will need to be pumped into Australian hospitals. Faculty are all Australian, they're all doctors, they would have trained not just medical students but junior doctors & trainees. And their primary objective is ensuring you're safe for the wards. that you'll be a reliable and dependable intern/resident. Influencing that..is a lot of human factors too. Again, we're talking healthcare and the lives and welfare of patients. In the balance is not just student well being, but public health safety. There is nothing worse than working with an unreliable, unsafe and lazy resident or intern.

Again, most faculty do not realize that there's a lot of financial cost that international cohorts burden. If you're NOrth American you're most likely on some loan. Domestics have job guarantees regardless and CSP students have lower tuition (those from low SES backgrounds will still suffer too from repeats) - so the consequences are a bit attenuated. I don't know if it's necessary for faculty to some how be softer just because the penalties are higher for internationals with failing. Then we're walking a moral fine line. That's a tough call.

Repeats and fails and medical school do not compare to how much more punitive it will be if this happens in residency at a hospital. even if you don't fail, damage to reputation is very hard to recover. Getting out from under a microscope means you have to work 2-3x harder. Take QHealth for instance - if you have to repeat the intern year, you automatically go to the bottom priority group for the match the next year. So behind everyone in the rest of the country. If you repeat a rotation as an intern you do not get paid for those 3 months of rotation repeated. You lose whatever elective rotation you wanted that year. You may not even get re-hired for the following year and either have to move to a new hospital (any one that will take you) or face unemployment. Hospitals overall try to be supportive of junior staff, but it's lower threshold than for students. Because you actually have responsibilities.

Edited..
Sorry I've made the response longer.

 

[Domperidone]

I'm done in 6months barring no insane things. I believe mcat_taker is a year behind.

As far as stats go, this is going off of their BB announcements based on how they determined grades from my preclinical years. Maybe it was different for your class? Rotations definitely have a higher resit percentage, but that's partly because of how subjective things are.

edit: Yeah I also don't equate resitting an exam to failing the course. There might be 5-10% that resit, but to fail outright or to fail the resit is far lower percentage it seems like for preclinicals. For clinical years - we definitely have students regularly retaking a rotation. That's not unheard of, though it will change next year - and I would agree with that 10% number wholeheartedly.

Enjoy 4th year! It's an exciting time.

It'd be nice if they finally improved something at UQ for preclinical.
By the time I left, they did some university wide survey, which showed student satisfaction at UQ Med was extremely low. It wasn't just my years, but the years immediately above and after that were affected. I don't know if it's still like that, but there were times it would take 2-3 months to get a reply to your email from admin for example. To their credit again, they're under-budgeted (severely), with a curriculum that is not meant for the amount students they're given. So, they could not have been more serious about the concept of self-directed learning.

 

[Laetare]

What are your stats?
(I probably can't offer much advising as I'm of a different era now - like I don't know anything about the new MCAT, but the current students in here can). Remember it is anonymous. Just lay it all out.

Again, I'd suggest a new thread as we're off topic, the title of this thread has Canadian in it lol and now we're talking US federal loans.


It's bit tough to use UQO to make presumptions about UQ trad. So grain of salt, because we're talking a uniquely Australian-American program, that requires taking the Step 1. Versus UQ trad which is largely Canadian and Singaporean, for whom things like board exams are not a requisite like it is for UQO - it's take them at your own risk. But there's no data that is published about UQ trad, not like there is for UQO, so we're left with only UQO class information.

As I mentioned. The idea is profit for international full fee paying students. They recruit you to pay $$$ in tuition. That is the trade off. If you can't pay you sorta don't fit the purpose. It's pretty cold, but it is what it is. (NB this would only be partly true of UQO).

Good luck with UQ

What's your alternative? Caribbean?
Are you aiming to stay in Australia or take the Steps and pursue residency in the US?

As you say, this discussion has wandered pretty far off-topic. So I'll be brief and if I find anything useful to add or ask I'll start a new thread. My undergraduate GPA is high and I expect to score well enough on the MCAT. I have not taken the MCAT yet because I had applied to Western Sydney University, which does not use it. Rural generalist in Australia is my intended career so UQ looks like the best way forward. Thanks for your good wishes.

 

[TheShowGoesOn]

@Domperidone @mcat_taker @sean80439 It's nice to have guys like you on here who have been through the Australian medical school process and are so willing to help. Just wanted to come back and let you know I appreciate it. I'm currently preparing to write the GAMSAT... doesn't look too bad. If anything comes up between now and my application process i'll be sure to post. Cheers and good luck to all.

 

[Domperidone]

As you say, this discussion has wandered pretty far off-topic. So I'll be brief and if I find anything useful to add or ask I'll start a new thread. My undergraduate GPA is high and I expect to score well enough on the MCAT. I have not taken the MCAT yet because I had applied to Western Sydney University, which does not use it. Rural generalist in Australia is my intended career so UQ looks like the best way forward. Thanks for your good wishes.

There's veering off topic and then there's fact that you'd be potentially missing other relevant responses from other long time posters. :/
I have a tendency to go through every thread that comes up in here. I can't say that everyone else will.

Anyway take the MCAT. Otherwise it's just good intentions.

Really take the time out (like 2-3 months solid) to study for this exam. If you have work, then work. But commit the rest of your time to that exam, and nothing else. Do lots of questions, do as many practice exams as you can. You will want to have a comfortable score not bare minimum right at selection criteria. Doesn't just help with ensuring you get in somewhere, but also any confidence boost like that helps you for later. It's really.. a baby exam compared to the type of exams that come later in this profession. Even if you don't take the Steps to go stateside.

Why Australia? why not just stay in the US if you have a high GPA?

 

[mcat_taker]

I'm done in 6months barring no insane things. I believe mcat_taker is a year behind.

As far as stats go, this is going off of their BB announcements based on how they determined grades from my preclinical years. Maybe it was different for your class? Rotations definitely have a higher resit percentage, but that's partly because of how subjective things are.

edit: Yeah I also don't equate resitting an exam to failing the course. There might be 5-10% that resit, but to fail outright or to fail the resit is far lower percentage it seems like for preclinicals. For clinical years - we definitely have students regularly retaking a rotation. That's not unheard of, though it will change next year - and I would agree with that 10% number wholeheartedly.

That's interesting and frightening that you mention resits and fails are higher in clinical years-- esp for someone who just started phase 2 in January. You would think that as someone progresses through med school the failure rate would decrease as most people who aren't cut out for it will fail out earlier and not in clinical years.

 

[Domperidone]

That's interesting and frightening that you mention resits and fails are higher in clinical years-- esp for someone who just started phase 2 in January. You would think that as someone progresses through med school the failure rate would decrease as most people who aren't cut out for it will fail out earlier and not in clinical years.

You'll be fine.

If you repeat or fall behind by one rotation with UQO, you will still be able to participate in the US match on time and start residency by July after final year. Think of it as a get-out-of-jali-free card. Under the new semester system (so far as I knew it years ago), there were meant to be fail-safe systems, I'm not sure if they saved them or changed them.

(UQ trad doesn't have this, for premeds looking at this, as internship/residency starts January).

 

[sean80439]

That's interesting and frightening that you mention resits and fails are higher in clinical years-- esp for someone who just started phase 2 in January. You would think that as someone progresses through med school the failure rate would decrease as most people who aren't cut out for it will fail out earlier and not in clinical years.

The content assessed is different, the style is different, and much of it is subjective; and on top of it they sabotaged my obgyn rotation by telling us there would be no cancer and then assessed us on cervical cancer.

 

[sean80439]

You'll be fine.

If you repeat or fall behind by one rotation with UQO, you will still be able to participate in the US match on time and start residency by July after final year. Think of it as a get-out-of-jali-free card. Under the new semester system (so far as I knew it years ago), there were meant to be fail-safe systems, I'm not sure if they saved them or changed them.

(UQ trad doesn't have this, for premeds looking at this, as internship/residency starts January).

There are still late starts for traditional students. As far as semesterizing - they said you are delayed a whole semester now if you fail a rotation. This will be true for everyone who's currently not a 4th year.

 

[Domperidone]

There are still late starts for traditional students. As far as semesterizing - they said you are delayed a whole semester now if you fail a rotation. This will be true for everyone who's currently not a 4th year.

I meant in terms of starting on time and how this would affect seeking jobs.
If you start as a late start in Australia it's literally that - you don't start with everyone else in January. If you're a domestic or a very lucky international grad, maybe you'll get a job after you finish your last rotation. Otherwise you finish when you finish mid year and wait till January the following year to actually start work. It's not appealing if you have loans.

With UQO - even if you're behind a rotation you can still have everything together by July when residency starts and not get too behind (Otherwise, again, you sit out and wait months to start the July the year after). The new semester system may throw a wrench in the works, but the idea behind semesters is lessening the stakes for failing and increasing opportunities for re-sit.

If the elective is still in place to be re-introduced, the idea was that it could be used to repeat at least a chunk of the semester in. In theory anyway. So that you could avoid such a late finish such that it would preclude you from participating in the match with your cohort if you were UQO. i don't know if this idea will be kept, but there was a big push to lessen impact on those who were behind rotations. I forget, that it's not just people who fail a rotation, but many have personal and family issues that cause them to get behind (emergency surgery, death etc.). it's a bit unfair for them to be 'penalized' in the sense that their job prospects are also affected.

There's going to be a lot of teething issues.

That's interesting and frightening that you mention resits and fails are higher in clinical years-- esp for someone who just started phase 2 in January. You would think that as someone progresses through med school the failure rate would decrease as most people who aren't cut out for it will fail out earlier and not in clinical years.

On other hand, if you were 'destined' to fail something, better that it were to occur in medical school rather than during residency. It may not seem that way, but the schools are going to be nicer about it than your programs and hospital will be and more patient. Relatively speaking anyway.

If anything, medical school really starts at the clinical years.
Pre-clinical to an extent, still resembles undergrad. you attend lectures, tutorials and labs. Once a week of seeing a patient in a group is a bit of joke in a way, but it is an important gentle introduction to the wards for students.

Every time you progress, whether preclinical to clinical, or then into residency and it's various levels the stakes and expectations are higher. There's no "easier" theme to it. Bit like a video game. You just get used to things over time. At least the job itself is more 'fun' over time, that's the only thing that makes for it. It's not to cause panic, but it is a healthcare profession. The 'weeding' doesn't necessarily end, it's continuous until you finish training and the earlier issues are picked up the better it is for everyone involved. As the stakes only every get higher with time.

Board exams are no less crappy. I can't comment on the American boards specifically, but with the Australian ones you're looking at few stations too and if you fail you wait a whole year to repeat the exams again.

If anything the Australian boards are harder because there's no Step 1s or Step 2s prior to the boards - so they incorporating basic clinical science into the exit exams in Australia (they don't on the American boards). That's a theme with the majority of the colleges. It's no less brutal.

And it's not like all these candidates 'deserved it' you can get unlucky and have a difficult case or just be too anxious and lose confidence. That's why American programs make a huge deal out of your step scores, because it one measure (a rough one) of how well you might do on boards later. Similarly.. some states in Australia (not QLD) it's a fully merit based system. The hospitals have selection criteria on interns - they look at your GPAs during medical school.

 

[med2020hopeful]

@Domperidone @mcat_taker @sean80439 It's nice to have guys like you on here who have been through the Australian medical school process and are so willing to help. Just wanted to come back and let you know I appreciate it. I'm currently preparing to write the GAMSAT... doesn't look too bad. If anything comes up between now and my application process i'll be sure to post. Cheers and good luck to all.

Hi guys,

Thank you for all the information as well. I can appreciate how much time you all put into helping pre-meds like me before making such a big decision. TheShowGoesOn - thanks for starting this thread and good luck on the GAMSAT!

I'm currently a second year M.Sc. in Cardio. Science student in Canada and am hoping to apply to UQ, USyd, UWA, Griffith and Monash for the 2020 intake. I wrote my MCAT and am just waiting for the results now. Hopefully UQ doesn't change the requirements too much! My undergrad GPA was 3.15 (wasn't very interested in my major but was too late to change) and my master's GPA is 4.0 and will hopefully finish that way. I know it has been said that if you apply, you'll get in but just wondering if things are expected to change all that much for 2020? Been doing some reading on various sites and it seems like it's getting a little more difficult to get in?

Also, would having a M.Sc. and hopefully a couple of first-authored papers assist in getting internships post-MD? I would like to work in Australia in IM in the long-term. In addition, are CMI rates different between states? Compared to UQ, would UWA or USyd have greater match rates in regards to CMI?

Sorry if this information has been mentioned somewhere already - haven't fully gone though various threads yet. Thought I would comment here rather than starting a new thread.

Thanks!

 

[Domperidone]

Hi guys,

Thank you for all the information as well. I can appreciate how much time you all put into helping pre-meds like me before making such a big decision. TheShowGoesOn - thanks for starting this thread and good luck on the GAMSAT!

I'm currently a second year M.Sc. in Cardio. Science student in Canada and am hoping to apply to UQ, USyd, UWA, Griffith and Monash for the 2020 intake. I wrote my MCAT and am just waiting for the results now. Hopefully UQ doesn't change the requirements too much! My undergrad GPA was 3.15 (wasn't very interested in my major but was too late to change) and my master's GPA is 4.0 and will hopefully finish that way. I know it has been said that if you apply, you'll get in but just wondering if things are expected to change all that much for 2020? Been doing some reading on various sites and it seems like it's getting a little more difficult to get in?

Also, would having a M.Sc. and hopefully a couple of first-authored papers assist in getting internships post-MD? I would like to work in Australia in IM in the long-term. In addition, are CMI rates different between states? Compared to UQ, would UWA or USyd have greater match rates in regards to CMI?

Sorry if this information has been mentioned somewhere already - haven't fully gone though various threads yet. Thought I would comment here rather than starting a new thread.

Thanks!

1. Wait for your MCAT score. Let's all stop counting our chickens before they hatch. But great you've written it. The other premeds in here haven't even gotten that far

2. I strongly suggest you apply for Canada first, thrn US MD or DO. I've already heard every reason under the sun why people don't even try. I get it. But point is on grad you have a 99% chance of matching in vocational training like IM direct. It remains the best return of investment of your 4 yrs and 300k.

I would personally never recommend going off shore as a first choice. Unless you have family already here etc. You only delay how hard things get by picking an easy in now.

3. So, don't take this badly, but on what basis are you making the decision re: IM or Australia? Have you shadowed anyone yet? Do you know anything about Australian healthcare, any exposure to the system? It's private and public here, two tiered.

IM - 7 yrs minimum all up in Australia versus 3-4 in US and Canada. No direct entry from med school, rotate a couple of years before applying.

4. CMI - never been guaranteed as yet by government as a permanent program. Everyone has different opinion but factually. That is it. I can't predict or promise what the situation will be in 4-5 yrs, I would highly recommend you have a plan B in the event you cannot get a job in Australia.

CMIs are currently/primarily at QLD rural hospitals or mixed private hospital and rural. And you cannot rotate as a student at the rural hospitals unless you are either a domestic student or in one case - a JCU student.

This system was set up in the 1990s for a doctor shortage 20 yrs ago. We are now in doctor oversupply by govt report. Trainees in many fields are already feeling it, takes longer and more research degrees to get on some vocational programs. Some areas are challenging to get attending positions in. Have a back up plan, don't put all your eggs in one basket.

Most internationals who can get a job will end up working in rural hospitals that do not offer subspecialties. That's if no further hurdles appear.

 

[med2020hopeful]

1. Wait for your MCAT score. Let's all stop counting our chickens before they hatch. But great you've written it. The other premeds in here haven't even gotten that far

2. I strongly suggest you apply for Canada first, thrn US MD or DO. I've already heard every reason under the sun why people don't even try. I get it. But point is on grad you have a 99% chance of matching in vocational training like IM direct. It remains the best return of investment of your 4 yrs and 300k.

I would personally never recommend going off shore as a first choice. Unless you have family already here etc. You only delay how hard things get by picking an easy in now.

3. So, don't take this badly, but on what basis are you making the decision re: IM or Australia? Have you shadowed anyone yet? Do you know anything about Australian healthcare, any exposure to the system? It's private and public here, two tiered.

IM - 7 yrs minimum all up in Australia versus 3-4 in US and Canada. No direct entry from med school, rotate a couple of years before applying.

4. CMI - never been guaranteed as yet by government as a permanent program. Everyone has different opinion but factually. That is it. I can't predict or promise what the situation will be in 4-5 yrs, I would highly recommend you have a plan B in the event you cannot get a job in Australia.

CMIs are currently/primarily at QLD rural hospitals or mixed private hospital and rural. And you cannot rotate as a student at the rural hospitals unless you are either a domestic student or in one case - a JCU student.

This system was set up in the 1990s for a doctor shortage 20 yrs ago. We are now in doctor oversupply by govt report. Trainees in many fields are already feeling it, takes longer and more research degrees to get on some vocational programs. Some areas are challenging to get attending positions in. Have a back up plan, don't put all your eggs in one basket.

Most internationals who can get a job will end up working in rural hospitals that do not offer subspecialties. That's if no further hurdles appear.

1. For sure. Hoping I don't have to re-write but if I do, I do. It was quite hard to study for the MCAT while doing my Master's but hoping it all turned out okay.

2. I will be applying to Canadian schools, and US MD as well, this fall for the 2019 intake. Australia is a backup for me along with Ireland. I could keep trying for Canadian schools but I think my undergrad GPA will get in the way of being accepted. As such, I will attempt one application cycle then hopefully go to Australia or Ireland if I'm unsuccessful. As of now, Australia seems more attractive than Ireland as there's at least a chance of getting internship in Aus. Not the case for Ireland. I'm hopeful that having a Master's will help me at that stage.

3. I have shadowed a FM doc, an IM doc and will be shadowing a cardiologist. As of now, IM seems to be something I'm very interested in but that could change of course. I don't have any exposure to the Aus system and definitely will read more about it as application time approaches.

4. That's what I was wondering. I've heard you're more likely to get an internship in Aus if you make it clear you wish to remain rather than unsuccessfully matching in CaRMS then attempting to stay? Are there countries I could go to for internship/residency as a back-up? I.e. Singapore?

Thanks for all your help. There definitely is a lot to weigh out but I'm dedicated to pursuing medicine and am strongly considering Australia as my number one backup.

Another question - how are the opportunities for research during med school? I'm loving research more and more and could see myself wanting to continue a side project in med school, if I'm accepted of course.

Regarding IM - that is definitely a long time but as of now, I'm okay with it (in all my naivety).

 

[jedrek]

I can only answer question 4. I will not recommend Singapore as a place for internship,but it is alright after specialist training.

Firstly, it follows the US structure,where you complete the residency in a much faster time frame. It takes about 6 years to complete IM training and you can start the training as soon as you intern. This means that it is pretty packed and hectic.
Secondly, there is certain form of discrimination against IMGs,including if you are a local IMG. Generally, it is "hidden" discrimination, where no one will tell you upfront, but it is just there.
https://www.sma.org.sg/UploadedImg/files/Publications - SMA News/4610/Editorial.pdf
Thirdly, the pay isn't as fantastic as it seems, especially if you are looking at working 80h weeks. In Australia, you can earn more in fewer hours. In the US, you can earn more by working the same number of hours.
Fourth,you will be supervised for 4 years as an intern in Singapore.
Conditional Registration | SMC
Last but not least,the attrition rate is pretty bad. I know of my uncle who was local-trained in Singapore,was one of the top few candidates in medical school,ended up complaining about his 100h work weeks and the backstabbing culture of his superiors trying to steal the credit away from him. Office politics and long working hours is a norm in Singapore.

I think your back-up should be Canada or the US,if you really just want an alternative other than US/Canada, I think NZ is a good place especially if you are looking towards a system similar to Australia.(they need more doctors)

 

[med2020hopeful]

I can only answer question 4. I will not recommend Singapore as a place for internship,but it is alright after specialist training.

Firstly, it follows the US structure,where you complete the residency in a much faster time frame. It takes about 6 years to complete IM training and you can start the training as soon as you intern. This means that it is pretty packed and hectic.
Secondly, there is certain form of discrimination against IMGs,including if you are a local IMG. Generally, it is "hidden" discrimination, where no one will tell you upfront, but it is just there.

Thirdly, the pay isn't as fantastic as it seems, especially if you are looking at working 80h weeks. In Australia, you can earn more in fewer hours. In the US, you can earn more by working the same number of hours.
Fourth,you will be supervised for 4 years as an intern in Singapore.

Last but not least,the attrition rate is pretty bad. I know of my uncle who was local-trained in Singapore,was one of the top few candidates in medical school,ended up complaining about his 100h work weeks and the backstabbing culture of his superiors trying to steal the credit away from him. Office politics and long working hours is a norm in Singapore.

I think your back-up should be Canada or the US,if you really just want an alternative other than US/Canada, I think NZ is a good place especially if you are looking towards a system similar to Australia.(they need more doctors)

Thanks! That helps a lot. I will look at the links. I had no idea the hospital culture was like that there - interesting. Will also look into New Zealand.

Regardless, first step is to get in to UQ, USyd, UWA or Monash.
Also, I see you're at UWA? How do you like it there and do you think I would be competitive for a spot? I see that they require a 5.5/7 which is cutting it pretty close. Do they take into account master's gpa?

 

[Domperidone]

1. For sure. Hoping I don't have to re-write but if I do, I do. It was quite hard to study for the MCAT while doing my Master's but hoping it all turned out okay.

2. I will be applying to Canadian schools, and US MD as well, this fall for the 2019 intake. Australia is a backup for me along with Ireland. I could keep trying for Canadian schools but I think my undergrad GPA will get in the way of being accepted. As such, I will attempt one application cycle then hopefully go to Australia or Ireland if I'm unsuccessful. As of now, Australia seems more attractive than Ireland as there's at least a chance of getting internship in Aus. Not the case for Ireland. I'm hopeful that having a Master's will help me at that stage.

3. I have shadowed a FM doc, an IM doc and will be shadowing a cardiologist. As of now, IM seems to be something I'm very interested in but that could change of course. I don't have any exposure to the Aus system and definitely will read more about it as application time approaches.

4. That's what I was wondering. I've heard you're more likely to get an internship in Aus if you make it clear you wish to remain rather than unsuccessfully matching in CaRMS then attempting to stay? Are there countries I could go to for internship/residency as a back-up? I.e. Singapore?

Thanks for all your help. There definitely is a lot to weigh out but I'm dedicated to pursuing medicine and am strongly considering Australia as my number one backup.

Another question - how are the opportunities for research during med school? I'm loving research more and more and could see myself wanting to continue a side project in med school, if I'm accepted of course.

Regarding IM - that is definitely a long time but as of now, I'm okay with it (in all my naivety).

1. Good luck! Many premeds go through similar things with MCATs. You won't be alone. Not everyone can take time off and devote 100% of their time to a single exam, it's a luxury if you can.

If you're able to get a strong score in balance of everything else going on in your life - then honestly, welcome to the rest of your life should you wind up in medicine.

Clinical year students have to be on the wards while juggling recorded lectures for exams (and board exams that are 2x the length of the MCAT). I work full time, 6 days a week (5 day week is luxury, hell, time for lunch is luxury), I still hav ed lectures and board exams to prep for.

So it seems trite, but ability to handle tests and academics under stress and limited time is a skill. Kudos if you can master the juggling early. Really. They'll force it into you eventually if not.

2. Consider US DO, because again at least you have a chance at 99% of vocational training in the US after med school in IM/FM anyway. (Not pulling this out of my ass - AUA American University of Antigua help).

I can't say there's no chance of Australia turning into Ireland. It nearly had turned into Ireland once while I was a student. There's chances of internship now for present final year students sure, but I can't provide 100% assurances it will remain that way in 5 years. We still have new schools opening with hundreds of new domestic students to grad in addition to everyone else with almost no consideration of current pipeline stress. And we haven't discussed what happens after intern year. Like where do all these interns go.

Ireland used to be similar to Australia, have a look in the Irish forums. I have (and have looked at every other off shore forum). I do that out of not just interest but for you guys - so lol you can look through it more too. I admit though, that it is disorienting to go through the forums as a premed. Whereas it's easier for me as someone looking back.

Research depends on school and state. QLD is a bit more indifferent relative to the south. However you can get research if you ask around enough. It's nothing fancy particularly for students - mainly just data processing and stats. But it is something, and the experience helps you get 'better' research later. It's always good to start early, if you want to go into a more academic field. Uni Melb has 6 months dedicated to a single research project with a clinician on the wards, which is student led.

3. Great that you've shadowed IM etc.!
It helps. But, whatever you see the med students doing in the US and Canada, is not what the students do in Australia.

No one ever considers shadowing in Australia lol. Just too easy to buy a one way ticket and dump 300k apparently. Look, if you can, preferably shadow doctors in Australia, but if not, I get it. Added expense etc. or if in the end you have no other options you don't have a choice in the matter anyway, Australia is it. Not much point in taking the extra time to try it, I suppose.

I throw the idea out there anyway because it will not be like Canada or the US, although it will be similar-ish. You're currently stating that you might want to live the rest of your life working here in a really rigorous and challenging line of work in a foreign country. If you're like the majority of international premeds I've known, you'll have never been to Australia before either prior to starting school. Does it never strike any one as naive? (rhetorical question - not trying to be mean, sometimes that naivete is a protective factor for this route).

So, just pointing this out, as anecdotally, I've known both Americans and Canadians who say the same things - they wouldn't mind Australia etc. But in some cases, the clinical years change their minds or even the intern year. It's led to bitterness they have to suffer through, because it's not what they expected. Some of them expect to be granted the same responsibilities as the North American medical students, and very generally that's not going to happen in the Australian system. Or the UK one, if you end up there. Worth it in the end I suppose, but they probably could have saved themselves a lot of pain and disappointment. I wouldn't apply this to everyone, of course. All in a spectrum.

Hopefully the current students have something rosier to tell you.
They kinda keep my jadedness in check.

I think NZ is a good place especially if you are looking towards a systemsimilar to Australia.(they need more doctors)

I wouldn't look into NZ. The kiwi's in Australia have a hard time going back versus staying - they are treated as domestics in Australia. NZ has its own junior doc oversupply.

Again we're looking at this universal phenomenon of selling qualifications or degrees and very little actual accountability by overseeing universities. And this pattern of slow catch up with government. It's easy for them to do this, education is a completely unregulated market in Australia. I forgot to mention it's worse for the nursing and paramedic students - or so they tell me. They've now privatized their education at many sites. There's little consideration over the idea of actual "need" of future workforce by the universities currently. So I've worked with nurses who have paramedic degrees they can't use until they have more clinical experience.

 

[marble30]

As an aside, I am rather amazed at the sheer number of vacant BPT spots at historically popular tertiary NSW hospitals (ie. anything > zero) that are still being advertised at this time in the clinical year....

 

[Domperidone]

As an aside, I am rather amazed at the sheer number of vacant BPT spots at historically popular tertiary NSW hospitals (ie. anything > zero) that are still being advertised at this time in the clinical year....

So the following is purely anecdotal and theoretical as a disclaimer. Based on what some of my friends or co-residents/ex-coresidents have done. So anecdotal to an extreme - putting that out there now. Hopefully this doesn't ignite a flame over 'what my friends' have said or word of mouth says... :S If so, gonna say it right now. Completely not my intention. Just me acknowledging non-evidence based theories if you will. It's weak.

So, I'm assuming you've thrown the comment in there under the assumption that it means there's some BPT shortage. There isn't. Try calling and asking workforce at the tertiary sites, how many BPT applications they get during regular "match" times or regular 'recruitment' times and how many spots they actually have. I've had friends who've actually gone and done this, in order to 'game' the system and maximize their chances of getting BPT somewhere. We're getting close to recruitment/match period for 2019 - so feel free to 'call my bluff', give it a whirl. Not trying to be douchey here, just pointing out that it isn't what you think it, with tertiary hospitals randomly advertising positions right now outside of regular match times.

So, the next question is how and why. why the gaps between the match/regular recruitment periods.

it's no different to the situation with surgical PHO or unaccredited years. RMOs originally in the position may get last minute accredited positions and then the unaccredited or PHO spot is no longer of any use to them. Happens every year. Then you get PHO/unaccredited surg positions coming outside of regular recruitment or match times. Bucketloads.

Likewise, BPT positions get snapped up during the match or regular recruitment times for a particular hospital. It's often pretty competitive. Then what happens is the RMO (resident medical officer - for premeds), for whom the BPT position gets offered to, gets onto the reg/vocational program they actually wanted - like Derm or Path etc. Or depending on state - a coveted peds spots at a peds hospital. It just so happens that BPT spot was 'easier' for them to get at a particular hospital or network. They would rather have that in hand as they wait to get lucky with something else. There's always going to be more BPT/IM trainee positions than there are say..Derm. It's hard to get into say Derm before PGY4-5 or whatever the hell it is right now, and they're going to need jobs in something in the interim.

In other cases - they realize they want a year off by the time they finish the year of BPT1 - despite signing up for BPT2. Then resign before their first rotation starts, which is pretty last minute. if enough of them do it, then workforce is scrambling for months. Some hospitals have suffered mass resignations. Or the RMO decides want GP training upon realizing BPT is harder than thought on lifestyle and hours (like, who knew). So they quit and fill their time with locumming or time off before switching to a lifestyle friendlier field.

It really fluctuates though, some years BPT is popular, other years it's surgical. Psychiatry is getting really popular. Usually I think it's the between BPT1-BPT2 or BPT2s that leave after a trial of BPT. Unless they were wanting something else the whole time like derm/peds etc. Much like how surg years are taken up or tried by people who then decide nah, rads is better, it actually allows you to have a life.

It's both a pro and con to the Australian system.
There's the match, and then the jobs that come outside the match. Anything goes. Nothing is ever set in stone.

It's my own theory, but I believe it's actually easier to move around between hospitals or get jobs you actually want, if you keep applying after the match is over a few months later. Due to people changing their minds about offers or getting reg training in something else. You just have to be aware that the hospital you leave will blacklist you from ever working with them again. Doesn't always work out either, in the event there's multiple people applying for the same vacancies that crop up post match. It also means dealing with the stress of having to constantly look for the right jobs, and potentially having to move around for said jobs.

AT training after BPT is on the other hand, challenging to get (for premeds - i.e. Cardiology, neurology etc. subspecialty training). No one can finish BPT in Australia and just be a consultant in IM either or hospitalist, it requires a further 2 years minimum post exams. This is what I mean by IM training requiring minimum of 7 years. More if you need additional research years to get on a subspecialty training program, because it is getting that competitive already.

On the side, there are likely more BPT positions available at rural sites relative to applicants. But then again, right now there's always more positions in anything to do with rural. the pass rates for the BPT exit exams are abysmal generally at these sites by the way, which is why people flock tertiary. Savvier domestics will strictly aim tertiary for this very reason from PGY1 - it's an early in. This is why popular tertiary sites are popular - superior training and higher pass rates for the BPT exams. So, whenever a student or premed asks me about jobs etc. I always go - ask the residents and registrars local to you where they think is best in whatever field you want to go into.

 

[jedrek]

Thanks! That helps a lot. I will look at the links. I had no idea the hospital culture was like that there - interesting. Will also look into New Zealand.

Regardless, first step is to get in to UQ, USyd, UWA or Monash.
Also, I see you're at UWA? How do you like it there and do you think I would be competitive for a spot? I see that they require a 5.5/7 which is cutting it pretty close. Do they take into account master's gpa?

I am a pre-med in UWA,so i might not give you the best answer but will try. I think it's a pretty flexible medical school amongst the medical schools you mentioned above, they have a scholarly activity embedded into their medical school curriculum,where you make a choice between doing 1.research 2.service learning 3.coursework.

1 is the typical pathway for clinician scientists, if you want to go further into clinical research. 2 is one-of-kind, I don't think the other medical schools have service learning as an integral part of the curriculum, good if you are thinking of going towards humanitarian work/NGO after med school. 3 is a choice between the Master of Public Health or Master of Health Profession Education, the former being geared more towards epidemiology,biostatistics and preventive healthcare. The latter, is more of an educator track,that is if you are looking towards becoming a clinician educator in the later part of your career. The best part is that you complete the masters degree within your 4 year medical degree.

Think if you are applying for traditional pathway for Australia,hitting the minimum entry requirements should be enough to earn an interview. As for getting in, I wouldn't be too sure about how the medical school accepts applicants.

Yep they do take into account both Masters by Research and Masters by Coursework but the calculation of the GPA,I am really not so sure, even for the Australia side of things.

They did mentioned that Masters of Research is +0.2 to their overall maximum gpa of 7.0 and the Masters of Coursework is factored into the GPA calculation.(I assume that they use your GPA calculation based on the formula of [(recent yr gpa) + (recent yr-1 gpa) + (recent yr-2 gpa)]/3 , but I can't be sure about this) So,there is a benefit towards completing your masters degree regardless.

GPA Calculation > Faculty of Health and Medical Sciences: The University of Western Australia

1. Good luck! Many premeds go through similar things with MCATs. You won't be alone. Not everyone can take time off and devote 100% of their time to a single exam, it's a luxury if you can.

I wouldn't look into NZ. The kiwi's in Australia have a hard time going back versus staying - they are treated as domestics in Australia. NZ has its own junior doc oversupply.

Again we're looking at this universal phenomenon of selling qualifications or degrees and very little actual accountability by overseeing universities. And this pattern of slow catch up with government. It's easy for them to do this, education is a completely unregulated market in Australia. I forgot to mention it's worse for the nursing and paramedic students - or so they tell me. They've now privatized their education at many sites. There's little consideration over the idea of actual "need" of future workforce by the universities currently. So I've worked with nurses who have paramedic degrees they can't use until they have more clinical experience.

I feel that applying for IMG is a really difficult process anywhere in the world,but I feel hopeful about NZ because of their close relationship with AU. There is also several articles about the strong IMG participation in NZ,especially specialist doctors. The article below mentioned that NZ is becoming more dependent on IMG and there is also a high attrition rate of IMG doctors there. Apart from that, one thing that caught my attention is the potential GP shortage in NZ especially when a large number of the doctors are nearing the retirement age,especially by the time when we get out of medical school.(those that haven't applied for medical school as of this point) While I feel that becoming an IMG is tough,but I believe that it's a possible back-up plan if I don't get into rural in AU.

https://www.asms.org.nz/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/IMG-Research-Brief_167359.5.pdf

 

[Domperidone]

I feel that applying for IMG is a really difficult process anywhere in the world,but I feel hopeful about NZ because of their close relationship with AU. There is also several articles about the strong IMG participation in NZ,especially specialist doctors. The article below mentioned that NZ is becoming more dependent on IMG and there is also a high attrition rate of IMG doctors there. Apart from that, one thing that caught my attention is the potential GP shortage in NZ especially when a large number of the doctors are nearing the retirement age,especially by the time when we get out of medical school.(those that haven't applied for medical school as of this point) While I feel that becoming an IMG is tough,but I believe that it's a possible back-up plan if I don't get into rural in AU.

https://www.asms.org.nz/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/IMG-Research-Brief_167359.5.pdf

I'm impressed. I don't think many medical students would look this stuff up (unless forced to), let alone premeds. And then also read it.

The paper is also looking at consultant level of training in terms of jobs, or "Senior medical officers". Comforting to think that in 2015 there was a reliance on overseas trained doctors. It's going to take minimum 10-12 years before you guys get there as premeds. That's a long period of time. A lot of the general public rely on articles like this for information, this often results in allowing that push for more new medical schools. Forgetting that you do have to train the grads of those schools somewhere with resources.

The same stats could be said of Australia currently with regards to rural and regional consultant doctors or SMOs. Heavy reliance on overseas trained consultants in rural/regional areas or 'areas of need'. Hence blow back by the rural docs association when the initial VISA restrictions were announced last year. (the caveat is imbalance - Foreign doctor glut blows open mass immigration farce - MacroBusiness, which is hard to resolve - grain of salt with this paper for sure - but it's a pervasive issue with IMGs going rural, doing minimum periods of time there then all en-mass going metro. Also addressed here: How to create a practising rural doctor - MJA InSight 17, 8 May 2017 | doctorportal with regards to how training can address this, and we're facing pretty bad maldistribution in training positions with regards to rural versus metro). Sorry, I get excited when someone wants to share articles to talk about. :S, you don't have to read them.

We're all assuming the baby boomer generation is going to retire eventually, unfortunately there is also presently a large and growing junior doctor population now awaiting this. It is plausible that generation could be larger than the junior doctor workforce in NZ, I haven't looked at the numbers specifically, but they do produce their own federal healthworkforce reports. In the mean time, there's also the question of getting appropriate training to replace them and that remains an issue. Training is a often perceived as a resource by Western countries, tax-payer funded. Governments are always stingy. So it's rough. I don't like it either.

We're in the midst of the tsunami of RMOs and medical students. An actual term some academic came up years ago. With many organizations and colleges are facing right now is how to create enough training to meet demand. And we don't know what will happen afterwards. Job shortage for junior doctors. Foreign doctors caught in difficult spot. Foreign doctors taking Kiwis' jobs NB - I realize they're not evidence based, media articles on junior doctor pipeline issues.

It's okay to stay hopeful. Nothing wrong in that. Ever. Just keep doing what you're doing, keep informed/work hard, have back-ups. Fill your CV with things so long as it doesn't affect your grades. I'm sure you could find a rural position, anywhere you go. Maldistribution in rural areas is just chronic to many Western countries.

 

[filsdepute]

At the risk of going off topic I'd just like to chime in here and address this specifically (Jedrek's post re working in SG). I'm a current UQ student in the clinical phase from Singapore and I've done a number of rotations there. I've secured a job back home and maybe my reasons for choosing to do will provide another viewpoint for those premeds weighing this as an option.

Firstly, Domperidone's points are on point particularly with regards to not being entitled, having back ups, and realising that you have to calibrate your expectations knowing that whatever you think you know about medicine as a career is probably going to be very different, especially if you're considering training and subsequently working in different countries with different systems. No one can tell you what's the best fit because we don't know what you prioritise.

For example - the responsibilities of a house officer/intern are very different in Oz vs Singapore. There's a higher patient load in general and the hours are longer, and it definitely isn't as laid back nor are the expectations as "gradual" in Singapore. That doesn't mean that it's a bad place to work because some people, like me, actually prefer it this way partly because it also translates to a "shorter" time taken to exit. The competition for residency positions is stiff and consultant positions are equally slim, and so in that respect it's not much different to Oz.

With regards to pay vs Oz and the US - you have to factor in the taxes and cost of living. I think you'll find that it works out to be comparable when you take into account your student loans (and that massive US interest rate). Perhaps I'm a little biased because I agreed to be bonded to Singapore in exchange for half of my tuition here, but even so.

You'll be supervised as a junior doctor everywhere. How closely you're watched depends.

You'll be discriminated in some fashion as an IMG everywhere too. The only thing you can really do about that is to work harder, be better, and deal.

I've had to fight for all my opportunities here - no one's going to push opportunities to you to close or cannulate or do H&Ps beyond the bare minimum if you don't fight for it. But if you do, I think you'll find that that effort pays off.

(edited cos typing on a phone sucks)

 

[jedrek]

For example - the responsibilities of a house officer/intern are very different in Oz vs Singapore. There's a higher patient load in general and the hours are longer, and it definitely isn't as laid back nor are the expectations as "gradual" in Singapore. That doesn't mean that it's a bad place to work because some people, like me, actually prefer it this way partly because it also translates to a "shorter" time taken to exit. The competition for residency positions is stiff and consultant positions are equally slim, and so in that respect it's not much different to Oz.

With regards to pay vs Oz and the US - you have to factor in the taxes and cost of living. I think you'll find that it works out to be comparable when you take into account your student loans (and that massive US interest rate). Perhaps I'm a little biased because I agreed to be bonded to Singapore in exchange for half of my tuition here, but even so.

You'll be supervised as a junior doctor everywhere. How closely you're watched depends.

You'll be discriminated in some fashion as an IMG everywhere too. The only thing you can really do about that is to work harder, be better, and deal.

I've had to fight for all my opportunities here - no one's going to push opportunities to you to close or cannulate or do H&Ps beyond the bare minimum if you don't fight for it. But if you do, I think you'll find that that effort pays off.

This is a really good alternative opinion about working in Sg. I think it really boils down to minor details such as preference for the work culture,cost of living and salary. Felt that what you mentioned is precise,it is always good to do rotations in the hospital of the country you want to practise in, before you know what works best for you or not. It's like a trial and error process, even more so for those that didn't get the Pre-employment grant.

I read the articles and I realised the big issue with getting internship placements around Australia/NZ.(As mentioned by this article that you shared Foreign doctors caught in difficult spot ) It also means that it makes better choice to work as a JMO fresh out in the Australia system. Getting that rural position,is something I don't really mind if it comes my way but ultimately, I feel that it's good to do overseas rotation in NZ to find out how things work over there first. As for this article Job shortage for junior doctors , I realised that Kenji Takahashi managed to attain a job offer in New Plymouth in New Zealand. https://www.mcnz.org.nz/support-for-doctors/list-of-registered-doctors/doctor/29845
This makes me realized that it can be attributed to being a matter of time, before one eventually gets the position for a job. If I am willing to wait, that delayed gratification will pay off.

 

[Domperidone]

This is a really good alternative opinion about working in Sg. I think it really boils down to minor details such as preference for the work culture,cost of living and salary. Felt that what you mentioned is precise,it is always good to do rotations in the hospital of the country you want to practise in, before you know what works best for you or not. It's like a trial and error process, even more so for those that didn't get the Pre-employment grant.

I read the articles and I realised the big issue with getting internship placements around Australia/NZ.(As mentioned by this article that you shared Foreign doctors caught in difficult spot ) It also means that it makes better choice to work as a JMO fresh out in the Australia system. Getting that rural position,is something I don't really mind if it comes my way but ultimately, I feel that it's good to do overseas rotation in NZ to find out how things work over there first. As for this article Job shortage for junior doctors , I realised that Kenji Takahashi managed to attain a job offer in New Plymouth in New Zealand. https://www.mcnz.org.nz/support-for-doctors/list-of-registered-doctors/doctor/29845
This makes me realized that it can be attributed to being a matter of time, before one eventually gets the position for a job. If I am willing to wait, that delayed gratification will pay off.

It won't hurt you to do NZ rotation. Not discouraging this. Again going back to the idea that in this present job climate things are not going to come easy and it has unpredictability. Grads like Kenji are recent grads, there's no way of knowing what will happen later in 4-5 yrs. But schools are growing, it's not to say jobs will dry up, it's just unpredictable.

It's like what filsdepute wrote above. Which I won't rehash. It summarizes a lot of the themes with off shore.

If you stay in Australia, you may have to make sacrifices, and possibly further delay time to complete training in your actual field of interest if you end up moving a lot. Easy to say you'll be happy with this as a premed, but that energy may become difficult to sustain 4, 5, 6 or even 7 years+++ later after studies, after work etc. especially after having to work in fields you have no interest in.

I remember you posted elsewhere that you prefer tertiary, rural is only an option if you can't get this. To go tertiary as an international means you have to be exceptional for even consideration - grades, research, know heads of dept - in a climate where even interns struggle to get to know their consultants - leadership roles in medical societies etc and luck. Or just extremely lucky. You called the right hospital, at the right time, they just had new vacancy and your CV fits their gap. Then if there's an interview, you have to excel that too - like know a lot about the hospital and it's surrounding region & patient population etc.

This is purely anecdotal. But of the few classmates/upperclassmen I knew who went tertiary, that is what they did. A couple were already ex-PhD students, who did post-doc part time during med school. My brain used to melt just thinking about the accumulative amount of work they put in. But it is doable. If there's something that you're passionate about and can make you stand out, go and do that. If it doesn't affect your studies. The hospitals like to see something different on applications, otherwise we're all pretty cookie cutter, everyone has an MBBS/MD. It won't be hard to find a rural position, but it doesn't merely fall into your lap either.

The MJA article by the head of medical deans of australian & NZ schools is about where directions should go. We aren't there yet, there's workforce issues that people are still trying to resolve. And have been for decades. The major issues being maldistribution and training pipeline bottlenecks, which he discusses pretty well.

I don't want to dampen enthusiasm or optimism here, it's actually protective to have. But I've said before, multiple times, there are many challenges attached to going abroad that domestic students won't have to face. It will test your patience because half the battle has nothing to do with your abilities. People either accept this as unfair or just part of life. If you survive it does make you more resilient and adaptable.

As I can feel myself starting to repeat myself (and other posters) I'm going to end here with this point. I've been called out by the med students in here before for too much repetition, so trying to avoid that as much as possible now. They have a more than fair point.

If it's not registering have a reread at what other posters have said. All of this stuff is information overload really, I realize how hard it is for a premed or layman to process.

TLR Off shore is not impossible. It's just hard.
As already discussed above in other posts.

It's not just about willingness to wait or willingness to go anywhere. You will have to work for it. As in putting in time and effort outside of regular academic studies too and doing more than a domestic student, just to get a job. Even then there's no guarantee of an outcome, but if you don't put in the work. Guaranteed you will get nothing. And the first job or jobs may not even be conducive to your long term goals, but you have to make do with what you have.

Addit: Try to avoid giving job advice to other premeds if you're a premed. You're then taking on responsibility for other people when you're not yet at the appropriate level to. If something went wrong, you wouldn't be able to follow through. You can challenge grads for more info that's very fair. But if you've no experience I would really discourage this practice of advising other premeds on residency. It's a bit like giving medical advice to patients before you start med school. Do continue to share with each other your experiences of getting in.

 

[med2020hopeful]

Just wanted to give an update on my personal situation.
I got my mcat score back today - 507 with 130 in CARS. I know I could do better if I had more time to study but I think I’m satisfied with the mark. Hopefully this is sufficient for Australia (UWA, USyd, Griffith and UQ). I will also be applying to some Canadian schools.

Thank you all for your help. I’ve been busy at lab but will go through your posts and research a bit more before replying.