California Northstate University College of Medicine(CNUCOM): Avoid this school at all costs!

[WildWing]

FYI - we put together and published an article on this: LCME Denies Full Accreditation for CNUCOM

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[voxveritatisetlucis]

no where on the the school web site from what I can tell

This is why schools can’t be for profit. Owner interests conflict with student interests too frequently

 

[spidermedic]

should I go through with this school if it remains my only acceptance this cycle?

Yes. While these are all good (mostly ethical) reasons to avoid this school, beggars can't be choosers. It's an MD school. They'll match better than 98% of DO schools and even better than some of the rural-focused MD. I guarantee you no one outside of their local town knows (or cares) about these things. When those students apply to residency the program directors will only care if the individual is competent and easy to get along with.

No school is perfect. I think my school is the best yet many of my classmates are always complaining about admin and the littlest things (They don't know what it's like at other schools). Don't let some online post steer you away. A US MD is literally the highest achievement (financially, prestige, etc) anyone can get in the entire world

 

[voxveritatisetlucis]

should I go through with this school if it remains my only acceptance this

This is tough. How many schools did you apply to, how many interviews did you get, and what are your general stats? Generally, you shouldn’t turn down an acceptance but I’m pretty sure almost every med school would be sympathetic to an applicant who doesn’t want to attend a school that is not accredited.

Why can schools accept people without accreditation? Seems like that would reduce these occurrences.

 

[spidermedic]

This is tough. How many schools did you apply to, how many interviews did you get, and what are your general stats? Generally, you shouldn’t turn down an acceptance but I’m pretty sure almost every med school would be sympathetic to an applicant who doesn’t want to attend a school that is not accredited.

Why can schools accept people without accreditation? Seems like that would reduce these occurrences.

No MD school has ever shut down or failed to get accreditation. If that does happen (again, it's like 99.99999999% unlikely) the students will be divided amongst other MD schools to finish their schooling without interruption. This school will get accredited and will have many competitive matches.

The same thing was said about BCOM, ICOM, Noorda, etc. Those schools will all graduate and match 80%+ of their matriculating class. The main difference here is that this is an MD school and will match a larger portion of its matriculating class (lower attrition, less students held back) and match more competitively overall.

Part of me thinks anyone telling OP to pass on this school is on the waitlist themselves and wants to get in

 

[chilly_md]

The for-profit medical schools like CNU and the DO ones are a recent phenomena. I wouldn't count them in the statistics for traditional medical schools. And Oral Roberts had a medical school that closed for financial reasons.

 

[FutureDoctor5000]

Don't listen to spidermedic... LOL.. one search on google will tell every PD that this school failed to get accreditation and was deficient in every single standard and is still provincially accredited, might actually end up getting shut down and is also a for profit school at that. Yea no... they aren't going to realistically match better than 99% of MD schools and even the more established DO schools tbh(Ok state, MSUCOM, TCOM), if I was a PD, I'd be weary of students from such new for profit schools. If you have the stats to get into this California MD school you prbly have the stats to get into an out of state MD or established DO.. 100% do those things instead go to a school like this.. apply to more places and see if you can get another acceptance... if not then you will work with what you got.

 

[spidermedic]

Don't listen to spidermedic... LOL.. one search on google will tell every PD that this school failed to get accreditation and was deficient in every single standard and is still provincially accredited, might actually end up getting shut down and is also a for profit school at that. Yea no... they aren't going to realistically match better than 99% of MD schools and even the more established DO schools tbh(Ok state, MSUCOM, TCOM), if I was a PD, I'd be weary of students from such new for profit schools. If you have the stats to get into this California MD school you prbly have the stats to get into an out of state MD or established DO.. 100% do those things instead go to a school like this.. apply to more places and see if you can get another acceptance... if not then you will work with what you got.

News | College of Medicine

medicine.cnsu.edu

Link your school's match list. Please and thank you

 

[FutureDoctor5000]

News | College of Medicine

medicine.cnsu.edu

Link your school's match list. Please and thank you

We clearly have a homer from CNU here.. I am done

 

[spidermedic]

We clearly have a homer from CNU here.. I am done

I have never stepped foot in California and I despise the coasts. If you're gonna make a claim then back it up

There's a reason a thread titled "IM program invites" exists in the DO forum. IM at "mid-tier" academic programs is easily achievable by any average (and even below-average) MD student. But when that student has the initials DO it becomes much harder, even if they have higher stats

 

[Goro]

No MD school has ever shut down or failed to get accreditation. If that does happen (again, it's like 99.99999999% unlikely) the students will be divided amongst other MD schools to finish their schooling without interruption. This school will get accredited and will have many competitive matches.

The same thing was said about BCOM, ICOM, Noorda, etc. Those schools will all graduate and match 80%+ of their matriculating class. The main difference here is that this is an MD school and will match a larger portion of its matriculating class (lower attrition, less students held back) and match more competitively overall.

Part of me thinks anyone telling OP to pass on this school is on the waitlist themselves and wants to get in

No med school ever closed??? Look up Oral Roberts School of Medicine, Hahnemann, and the Medical College of Pennsylvania. These were all MD schools, and their closures all happened within my lifetime.

BTW, CNU's match list were pretty much equivalent to the mediocre to good DO Schools.

EDIT: Snark retracted. what is your DDx list for a medical school that has deficiencies in ALL 12 accreditation categories?

 

[KnightDoc]

Ummm, no med school ever closed??? Look up Oral Roberts School of Medicine, and if that isn't bad enough, look up Hanuman and the Medical College of Pennsylvania. These were all MD schools, and they all happened within my lifetime.

BTW, CNU's match list were pretty much equivalent to the good D. Schools. And spare me how few people went into Family Medicine.

Ummmm, Hahnemann/MCP was one school, not two, and it didn't close -- it became Drexel, within MY lifetime!

 

[voxveritatisetlucis]

List of defunct medical schools in the United States - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

This article is pretty interesting. There is actually a ton, granted there seems to have been a surge of closures leading up to and during the First World War.

Most recent example I can find is Touro’s attempt to create an allopathic school in NJ but they never got accredited or enrolled students.

 

[deleted555445]

List of defunct medical schools in the United States - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

This article is pretty interesting. There is actually a ton, granted there seems to have been a surge of closures leading up to and during the First World War.

Most recent example I can find is Touro’s attempt to create an allopathic school in NJ but they never got accredited or enrolled students.

The history behind those closings and the Flexner report is pretty interesting, I'd recommend it if you have a couple of hours to burn. If you have more time to burn Paul Starr's Social Transformation of American Medicine is a thiccc book but super interesting about the foundations of American medical education, practice, and regulation.

 

[gyngyn]

There is a lot at stake here. Remember to maintain a civil tone.

 

[tinyacorn019]

What implications would the lack of accreditation have for the undergraduate program?

 

[FutureDoctor5000]

I have never stepped foot in California and I despise the coasts. If you're gonna make a claim then back it up

There's a reason a thread titled "IM program invites" exists in the DO forum. IM at "mid-tier" academic programs is easily achievable by any average (and even below-average) MD student. But when that student has the initials DO it becomes much harder, even if they have higher stats

What level of education are you.. just curious... just as an FYI I am an all around average DO student by USMD AND DO standards sitting on a bunch of mid tier IM and upper mid tier invites(as are other DO's).. there's nothing truly special in my app tbh.. I know of DO's with higher scores than me who do have IM invites from places like Yale, Penn, WashU, U wash, OHSU, Brown, Vandy, Dartmouth, Emory, UVA, UNC, Tulane, Georgetown tho.. I would still not got to CNU and would be weary...

 

[KnightDoc]

What implications would the lack of accreditation have for the undergraduate program?

Not much. My understanding is that it's a tiny program whose main purpose is to funnel students into its graduate programs. It's not really a full blown, stand alone UG. LCME accreditation has nothing to do with either its UG or its other graduate programs.

 

[spidermedic]

What level of education are you.. just curious... just as an FYI I am an all around average medical student by USMD AND DO standards sitting on a bunch of mid tier IM and upper mid tier invites(as are other DO's).. there's nothing truly special in my app tbh.. I know of DO's with higher scores than me who do have IM invites from places like Yale, Penn, Brown, Vandy, Dartmouth, Emory, UVA, Tulane, Georgetown.. I would still not got to CNU....

M2 and that's exactly my point. There are probably many MDs interviewing alongside you and your DO colleagues with lower scores than you. As step goes P/F and most DOs don't take Step 2 CK (this may or may not change, some may find out/decide too late) the MD initials become much more important. It is easier being average as an MD than it is being average as a DO

 

[voxveritatisetlucis]

The Wikipedia article for Cal north state says it’s a nonprofit but consensus on here is that it is for profit. Is this some sort of tax technicality? Or was Cal Northstate founded with help from a hospital system (similar to kaiser permanente SOM) and this somehow makes it nonprofit?

 

[FutureDoctor5000]

No med school ever closed??? Look up Oral Roberts School of Medicine, Hahnemann, and the Medical College of Pennsylvania. These were all MD schools, and their closures all happened within my lifetime.

BTW, CNU's match list were pretty much equivalent to the mediocre to good DO Schools.

EDIT: Snark retracted. what is your DDx list for a medical school that has deficiencies in ALL 12 accreditation categories?

Yea the match list doesn't look anything extra ordinary... a few impressive matches but even brand new DO schools have a few of those every year lol

 

[FutureDoctor5000]

M2 and that's exactly my point. There are probably many MDs interviewing alongside you and your DO colleagues with lower scores than you. As step goes P/F and most DOs don't take Step 2 CK (this may or may not change, some may find out/decide too late) the MD initials become much more important. It is easier being average as an MD than it is being average as a DO

Good for you man.. go study now.. get of SDN

Your point doesn't even make any sense cause I know people with lower stats in my class who have simmilar invites but I digress.. a score or a degree isn't the only thing programs are looking for and you will learn that hard way..

 

[Doctoscope]

People like spidermedic constantly remind me that medicine should be thought of as a job, not an identity.

 

[FutureDoctor5000]

Good for you man.. go study now.. get of SDN

Your point doesn't even make any sense cause I know people with lower stats in my class who have simmilar invites but I digress.. a score or a degree isn't the only thing programs are looking for and you will learn that hard way..

No med school ever closed??? Look up Oral Roberts School of Medicine, Hahnemann, and the Medical College of Pennsylvania. These were all MD schools, and their closures all happened within my lifetime.

BTW, CNU's match list were pretty much equivalent to the mediocre to good DO Schools.

EDIT: Snark retracted. what is your DDx list for a medical school that has deficiencies in ALL 12 accreditation categories?

Hell TCOM's and MSUCOM match list is

 

[spidermedic]

Hell TCOM's and MSUCOM match list is

Hence me saying 98% of DO schools. These two are good schools and the only one's I'd recommend someone choosing over an MD (if the MD is farther from their support system)

 

[DOVinciRobot]

News | College of Medicine

medicine.cnsu.edu

Link your school's match list. Please and thank you

That’s not an impressive match list. It’s even worse when you consider it’s a private MD school from California.

If you don’t think PDs will care about this you have zero insight into resident selection.

 

[FutureDoctor5000]

Hence me saying 98% of DO schools. These two are good schools and the only one's I'd recommend someone choosing over an MD (if the MD is farther from their support system)

Even Ok state and arguably KCU as well... but good change in tone from your prior comments😂

 

[spidermedic]

That’s not an impressive match list. It’s even worse when you consider it’s a private MD school from California.

If you don’t think PDs will care about this you have zero insight into resident selection.

https://www.lmunet.edu/debusk-college-of-osteopathic-medicine/do/academics/documents/2021-residency-placement-by-location.pdf

Residency Placements | UPIKE

Residency Placements Illustrated below are KYCOM's Residency Placement Outcomes reported as of June 30 of the respective Match Year. Table 1 represents ...

www.upike.edu

Are these what you consider good? I mean... they are established schools after all. Each have >10% attrition from what I've seen and I know people who graduated from both.

 

[FutureDoctor5000]

https://www.lmunet.edu/debusk-college-of-osteopathic-medicine/do/academics/documents/2021-residency-placement-by-location.pdf

Residency Placements | UPIKE

Residency Placements Illustrated below are KYCOM's Residency Placement Outcomes reported as of June 30 of the respective Match Year. Table 1 represents ...

www.upike.edu

Are these what you consider good? I mean... they are established schools after all. Each have >10% attrition from what I've seen and I know people who graduated from both.

Who brought up U-pike? The mission of those schools is to produce primary care physicians in rural areas.. still I see matches to derm, uro, ortho, Rad onc from those schools in the past few years...
The 10% attrition rate maybe misleading.. it's like 15-20% don't graduate on time.. I would say the 5-6 year graduation rate even at U-Pike is prbly 90-95%.

 

[spidermedic]

Who brought up U-pike? The mission of those schools is to produce primary care physicians in rural areas.. still I see matches to derm, uro, ortho, Rad onc, ent..

Goro pointed out that CNU's match list is equivalent to "mediocore to good DO schools" well... I see like 2 DR matches out of 500....

BTW, CNU's match list were pretty much equivalent to the mediocre to good DO Schools.

 

[DOVinciRobot]

https://www.lmunet.edu/debusk-college-of-osteopathic-medicine/do/academics/documents/2021-residency-placement-by-location.pdf

Residency Placements | UPIKE

Residency Placements Illustrated below are KYCOM's Residency Placement Outcomes reported as of June 30 of the respective Match Year. Table 1 represents ...

www.upike.edu

Are these what you consider good? I mean... they are established schools after all. Each have >10% attrition from what I've seen and I know people who graduated from both.

Red herring.

 

[chilly_md]

It is a common mistake to try to read match lists unless one has more in-depth knowledge about programs in a certain speciality or the particular interests of the students applying.

 

[FutureDoctor5000]

Goro pointed out that CNU's match list is equivalent to "mediocore to good DO schools" well... I see like 2 DR matches out of 500....

lol DR wasn't not competitive at all the past few years, had a 92% match rate for DO senior.. doesn't mean anything.. it's also not a very popular specialty in general and has only gained more popularity since COVID. Not everyone who goes to medical school wants to become a pediatric neuro oncology orthopedic surgeon. I would think a schools whose mission is to produce rural primary care doctors would attract mostly those people.. but still produced non primary care docs in everything from ortho to urology to surgery/anesthesia/derm, rad onc. I don't know what this has to do with CNU tho...

 

[spidermedic]

It is a common mistake to try to read match lists unless one has more in-depth knowledge about programs in a certain speciality or the particular interests of the students applying.

I know quite a few individuals at both schools. A few wanted ortho but had 0 support and even pushback. Ended up doing FM and PM&R

 

[FutureDoctor5000]

I know quite a few individuals at both schools. A few wanted ortho but had 0 support and even pushback. Ended up doing FM and PM&R

Were they realistic? Had the scores and EC's for ortho? If that was the case then they were dumb to listen their school. Advising at most schools is dumb and listening to an advisor as an only opinion is dumb.. key is to get mentors in the field to help you find your path in the field.

 

[chilly_md]

I know quite a few individuals at both schools. A few wanted ortho but had 0 support and even pushback. Ended up doing FM and PM&R

I am unsure why LMU is also your example. It does not necessarily surprise me that students are encountering issues there.

 

[spidermedic]

I am unsure why LMU is also your example. It does not necessarily surprise me that students are encountering issues there.

These two schools were ranked dead list (out of all med schools) by USNWR survey. And I used them because their match lists were readily accessible and in response to goro saying that CNU is essentially as good as a "mediocre" DO school

 

[MDMechEngr]

Yes. While these are all good (mostly ethical) reasons to avoid this school, beggars can't be choosers. It's an MD school. They'll match better than 98% of DO schools and even better than some of the rural-focused MD. I guarantee you no one outside of their local town knows (or cares) about these things. When those students apply to residency the program directors will only care if the individual is competent and easy to get along with.

No school is perfect. I think my school is the best yet many of my classmates are always complaining about admin and the littlest things (They don't know what it's like at other schools). Don't let some online post steer you away. A US MD is literally the highest achievement (financially, prestige, etc) anyone can get in the entire world

I would choose this school over all DO schools all day, everyday and twice on sunday. They will get accreditation in time. Mark my words. Not having federal loans sucks, but it is the tax you pay for being from CA. SDN sensationalism.

 

[chilly_md]

These two schools were ranked dead list (out of all med schools) by USNWR survey. And I used them because their match lists were readily accessible and in response to goro saying that CNU is essentially as good as a "mediocre" DO school

Thesaurus results for MEDIOCRE

Synonyms for MEDIOCRE: decent, satisfactory, middling, medium, ordinary, passable, indifferent, so-so; Antonyms of MEDIOCRE: excellent, outstanding, great, superior, exceptional, superb, stellar, special

www.merriam-webster.com

 

[tinyacorn019]

Not much. My understanding is that it's a tiny program whose main purpose is to funnel students into its graduate programs. It's not really a full blown, stand alone UG. LCME accreditation has nothing to do with either its UG or its other graduate programs.

Makes sense. Correct me if i'm wrong however, but surely there's no reason for the undergrad program to exist besides to justify the existence of the medical school and offer a pathway to attend. I'd imagine that COM not gaining proper accreditation would harm the undergraduate program if anything. No incentive to attend would likely deter a lot of prospective students. I'm only speaking as the parent of a current student in the undergraduate program who is concerned about their future. If we were to know that the accreditation for the medical school was up in the air, we would not have considered enrollment.

 

[spidermedic]

Makes sense. Correct me if i'm wrong however, but surely there's no reason for the undergrad program to exist besides to justify the existence of the medical school and offer a pathway to attend. I'd imagine that COM not gaining proper accreditation would harm the undergraduate program if anything. No incentive to attend would likely deter a lot of prospective students. I'm only speaking as the parent of a current student in the undergraduate program who is concerned about their future. If we were to know that the accreditation for the medical school was up in the air, we would not have considered enrollment.

If your child is smart enough to get into a BS/MD program they're smart enough to get accepted to any DO program and a few MD if they study hard enough for the MCAT

 

[spidermedic]

I would choose this school over all DO schools all day, everyday and twice on sunday. They will get accreditation in time. Mark my words. Not having federal loans sucks, but it is the tax you pay for being from CA. SDN sensationalism.

SDN sensationalism indeed. it's usually those who are unhappy with their current situation that dominate these forums. They are 5x more active than MDs despite making up a tiny fraction of all med students

 

[FutureDoctor5000]

I would choose this school over all DO schools all day, everyday and twice on sunday. They will get accreditation in time. Mark my words. Not having federal loans sucks, but it is the tax you pay for being from CA. SDN sensationalism.

Here we see a man/woman with ability to see the future ...bravo... now can I have you handle my stock portfolio?

These two schools were ranked dead list (out of all med schools) by USNWR survey. And I used them because their match lists were readily accessible and in response to goro saying that CNU is essentially as good as a "mediocre" DO school

So your whole argument here is based on a semantics error by goro and what a "mediocre " school is.. a for profit medical school with issues gaining accreditation after graduating its first class... not accreditation with warning or monitoring straight up provincial accreditation, what could go wrong?? it's almost unheard of LOL.. You have to literally compare it to rural DO schools with completely different missions and goals. That's not even this argument, anyone who can get into a California MD school can get into better MD schools out of state and any of the much better and more established DO schools. Plain and simple... stop stroking your ego and make this into another MD vs DO argument.. no one cares 🥱 😴

 

[voxveritatisetlucis]

the urology match at Mayo Clinic stood out. Isn’t urology pretty difficult to match?

 

[KnightDoc]

Makes sense. Correct me if i'm wrong however, but surely there's no reason for the undergrad program to exist besides to justify the existence of the medical school and offer a pathway to attend. I'd imagine that COM not gaining proper accreditation would harm the undergraduate program if anything. No incentive to attend would likely deter a lot of prospective students. I'm only speaking as the parent of a current student in the undergraduate program who is concerned about their future. If we were to know that the accreditation for the medical school was up in the air, we would not have considered enrollment.

Yes, but it's not just a med school. It's also a pharmacy school, dental school, etc., but you're absolutely right. If you're only there as part of the BS/MD program, then there's no reason for you to stay if the med school closes.

OTOH, it's not like they are running the UG to compete with the UCs or anything. They wouldn't need the UG to justify the existence of the med school. There are MANY very reputable med schools that are not part of larger universities, and don't have associated UGs. Mayo and Mt. Sinai are just two examples. Yes, these guys are running it to be a feeder for the BS/MD program, as well as for the other professional schools, but it's not a necessity. It just so happens to be part of their business model, but, again, whatever LCME does with the med school does not directly impact the UG.

For now, there is nothing to do but wait and see if the situation is salvageable, and, if not, whether someone steps in to take over. If not, you just transfer your kid out. It will be a PITA, but transferring out of the UG will be a lot easier than transferring out of the med school. Good luck!!

 

[FutureDoctor5000]

the urology match at Mayo Clinic stood out. Isn’t urology pretty difficult to match?

One urology match wouldn't make me want to go to a school with accreditation issues, I mean I would exhaust all my options before I matriculated at this school...

 

[spidermedic]

the urology match at Mayo Clinic stood out. Isn’t urology pretty difficult to match?

Yes. That's the MD advantage. My (low-tier) MD school has matched dozens of students to Yale, hopkins, mgh, etc... our average MCAT isn't far off from that of some DO schools with high averages like CCOM, PCOM, Touro, but you'll never see them match at such institutions

 

[deleted771945]

If your child is smart enough to get into a BS/MD program they're smart enough to get accepted to any DO program and a few MD if they study hard enough for the MCAT

I remember back in 2015 when they sent out their BS/MD invitations. It was a cold email that immediately offered a "conditional acceptance" to their "2+4 or 3+4" BS-MD combined program. They also had a note at the end of the email saying "this is not a blanket email!" Hahaha.

 

[deleted771945]

Yes. That's the MD advantage. My (low-tier) MD school has matched dozens of students to Yale, hopkins, mgh, etc... our average MCAT isn't far off from that of some DO schools with high averages like CCOM, PCOM, Touro, but you'll never see them match at such institutions

Which school?

 

[spidermedic]

Which school?

A very good one. The bias is real though. Just scan those programs websites you'll see them match FMGs from Lebanon, Saudi, and other countries but never touch an osteopath. They may interview them as a courtesy and to give them a little ego boost but never rank to match (RTM)