Pro vaccine mandate Rph that changed stance?

[Bubba98]

Has any Rph on this board that was adamantly pro COVID-19 vaccine MANDATE FOR EVERYONE changed their mind? To what degree?

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[Rouelle]

If this thread takes a dark turn into political rhetoric, I’m out. But to answer your question:

I wouldn’t say I’m “adamantly pro mandate,” but I generally support allowing organizations (hospitals, schools, places of employment, etc) to have the ability to mandate it as a condition of employment or participation. I support it just as much as, for example, MMR, varicella, and other vaccines that are required for my kids to enroll in school. I have had basically this same view since the vaccine arrived on the scene.

 

[Dred Pirate]

If this thread takes a dark turn into political rhetoric, I’m out. But to answer your question:

I wouldn’t say I’m “adamantly pro mandate,” but I generally support allowing organizations (hospitals, schools, places of employment, etc) to have the ability to mandate it as a condition of employment or participation. I support it just as much as, for example, MMR, varicella, and other vaccines that are required for my kids to enroll in school. I have had basically this same view since the vaccine arrived on the scene.

This is stated better than I could, but agree 100%

 

[owlegrad]

If anything I think I have gone the opposite direction - I was more sympathetic to people that wanted to wait when it was first released. Now I am much more pro-vaccine mandate.

Although I wouldn’t say “everyone”. I would say “everyone for whom they are recommended”. From the tone of the OP I suspect that is not the level of nuance they are looking for though. I am curious if there is anyone here that has gone in that direction though.

Now masks on the other hand…I started by hating them but thinking they might be necessary to hating them and thinking they are pointless (or worse). In short my hatred has only grown.

 

[Bubba98]

If this thread takes a dark turn into political rhetoric, I’m out. But to answer your question:

I wouldn’t say I’m “adamantly pro mandate,” but I generally support allowing organizations (hospitals, schools, places of employment, etc) to have the ability to mandate it as a condition of employment or participation. I support it just as much as, for example, MMR, varicella, and other vaccines that are required for my kids to enroll in school. I have had basically this same view since the vaccine arrived on the scene.

Hospitals, schools, places of employment, etc. Isn't this just everyone?

 

[Rouelle]

Hospitals, schools, places of employment, etc. Isn't this just everyone?

I can think of many groups of people who are not public school students and are not employed by hospitals or other employers that do (or would) mandate vaccination.

 

[WorthlessOxygen]

I suppose I might fall into your category. I was in favor of local/statewide vaccine mandates for large gatherings while in a state of emergency. I haven't changed my mind there but given that my area hasn't been in a state of emergency in quite a while, I wouldn't support the same mandates that I did then.

Still in favor of the mandates for schools/hospitals/etc stated above.

 

[WorthlessOxygen]

Now masks on the other hand…I started by hating them but thinking they might be necessary to hating them and thinking they are pointless (or worse). In short my hatred has only grown.

Interesting, I got used to them pretty quickly. I'm not sure how useful they are but I honestly don't care one way or the other about wearing one.

 

[RxPreceptor]

Yeah **** politics

 

[owlegrad]

Interesting, I got used to them pretty quickly. I'm not sure how useful they are but I honestly don't care one way or the other about wearing one.

As odd as it is, I think part of my issue with them is the inconsistency. I only wear them at work now and despise how pointless it seems. Not to mention of course the usual complaints of being stuffy, uncomfortable, etc.

 

[grumpyRph]

they literally don't make any sense when they said it doesn't stop the spread. if they're gonna mandate covid vaccine so you don't have a severe outcome, they might as well mandate people not be obese or be smokers. granted, your health insurance could go up if you are obese, smoke, and i suppose you could say that if you don't have the covid vaccine. but to mandate it as a condition of employment or to sit at a restaurant...is C.R.A.Z.Y. because...IT DOESN'T STOP THE SPREAD!

 

[Rockinacoustic]

If I were an employer I'd rather pay for your vaccine than your week-long ICU stay

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

they literally don't make any sense when they said it doesn't stop the spread. if they're gonna mandate covid vaccine so you don't have a severe outcome, they might as well mandate people not be obese or be smokers. granted, your health insurance could go up if you are obese, smoke, and i suppose you could say that if you don't have the covid vaccine. but to mandate it as a condition of employment or to sit at a restaurant...is C.R.A.Z.Y. because...IT DOESN'T STOP THE SPREAD!

You are allowed to mandate you stop smoking to be hired. You can also increase insurance premiums for that.

Maybe that's the solution. Don't mandate the COVID vaccine but if you haven't taken it your monthly insurance premium goes up $100.

 

[grumpyRph]

You are allowed to mandate you stop smoking to be hired. You can also increase insurance premiums for that.

Maybe that's the solution. Don't mandate the COVID vaccine but if you haven't taken it your monthly insurance premium goes up $100.

there are examples of non-smoking mandates? wtf?

 

[grumpyRph]

If I were an employer I'd rather pay for your vaccine than your week-long ICU stay

sure. because everyone who gets covid ends up in icu lol.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

there are examples of non-smoking mandates? wtf?

Cleveland Clinic is the one I know off the top of my head.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

sure. because everyone who gets covid ends up in icu lol.

And not everyone who ever has any knee pain is going to be disabled over a knee issue, but a month of PT on my knee when I was 23 and at 30 it was excluded from my disability policy.

Not everyone who gets COVID gets admitted but if you're unvaccinated that risk goes up significantly.

 

[Rockinacoustic]

sure. because everyone who gets covid ends up in icu lol.

I pressume you don't wear a seat belt when driving then- because not everyone who gets into a car accident dies

 

[DagS132]

Now masks on the other hand…I started by hating them but thinking they might be necessary to hating them and thinking they are pointless (or worse). In short my hatred has only grown.

i absolutely love masks simply due to the fact that i dont need to shave. sometimes im lazy and just want to head out, similar to how hats allow you to leave without styling your hair

 

[Dred Pirate]

i absolutely love masks simply due to the fact that i dont need to shave. sometimes im lazy and just want to head out, similar to how hats allow you to leave without styling your hair

right there with you - plus covers me from making stupid faces at people - although I hate them during a code, never realized how much I lip read, and then when people call your name I have no idea where it is coming from.

 

[footfairy]

sure. because everyone who gets covid ends up in icu lol.

I've had one employee miss 20 days of work between 3 separate cases of covid. Even without an ICU bill that's 20 days (10 during the initial summer, 5 during omnicron, and 5 this past May) of my operation being down a worker and/or scrambling for coverage. There are a ton of direct and indirect costs associated with this.

 

[grumpyRph]

I've had one employee miss 20 days of work between 3 separate cases of covid. Even without an ICU bill that's 20 days (10 during the initial summer, 5 during omnicron, and 5 this past May) of my operation being down a worker and/or scrambling for coverage. There are a ton of direct and indirect costs associated with this.

Ok um I know in CA they’ve been given 6 weeeks of Covid leave over the past 3 years . I imagine there’s been similar policies across other states and you use it or lose it . So your employee may have been sick but also taking advantage of that leave rightfully so.

 

[RxPreceptor]

Yeah, I will say I’m kind of sick of employees abusing the system with Covid cases that are often nothing more than some vague, mild cough and cold symptoms.

I mean there’s like totally no way anyone could cheat or lie on home test kits with questionable accuracy and reliability to begin with (sarcasm for those of you with difficulty interpreting tone)

it won’t matter ultimately though, lazy people find excuses for everything in life…back to playing the “family emergency” card

to get back to the original question, I’m still pro common sense/anti conspiracy theory. The degree to which is slightly less adamant being way more understanding of those who wish to hold off and delay due to uncertainty in this global 3 ring circus

 

[grumpyRph]

Yeah, I will say I’m kind of sick of employees abusing the system with Covid cases that are often nothing more than some vague, mild cough and cold symptoms.

I mean there’s like totally no way anyone could cheat or lie on home test kits with questionable accuracy and reliability to begin with (sarcasm for those of you with difficulty interpreting tone)

it won’t matter ultimately though, lazy people find excuses for everything in life…back to playing the “family emergency” card

to get back to the original question, I’m still pro common sense/anti conspiracy theory. The degree to which is slightly less adamant being way more understanding of those who wish to hold off and delay due to uncertainty in this global 3 ring circus

abusing the system. ffs. let them stay home instead of being abused by corporate and customers my god.

 

[Old Timer]

they literally don't make any sense when they said it doesn't stop the spread. if they're gonna mandate covid vaccine so you don't have a severe outcome, they might as well mandate people not be obese or be smokers. granted, your health insurance could go up if you are obese, smoke, and i suppose you could say that if you don't have the covid vaccine. but to mandate it as a condition of employment or to sit at a restaurant...is C.R.A.Z.Y. because...IT DOESN'T STOP THE SPREAD!

Say:
"I don't know anything about vaccines" without actually saying the words "I don't know anything about vaccines"

 

[Bubba98]

Say:
"I don't know anything about vaccines" without actually saying the words "I don't know anything about vaccines"

I think you just did

 

[Old Timer]

I think you just did

Dream on my friend. Most vaccines do not stop transmission,. Polio, whooping cough, and many others. However, against the original strain the vaccine crushed transmission to the ground. While not stopping transmission, Polio vaccine will keep it bay., See Rockland county New York to see what happens when vaccines become optional.

Anyone who says since they dont stop transmission,. they are useless, knows absolutely nothing about vaccines or vaccination. Sorry, you and the grumpmeister are in that category.

 

[RxPreceptor]

Dream on my friend. Most vaccines do not stop transmission,. Polio, whooping cough, and many others. However, against the original strain the vaccine crushed transmission to the ground. While not stopping transmission, Polio vaccine will keep it bay., See Rockland county New York to see what happens when vaccines become optional.

Anyone who says since they dont stop transmission,. they are useless, knows absolutely nothing about vaccines or vaccination. Sorry, you and the grumpmeister are in that category.

Polio vaccination rate for 2-year-olds is as low as 37% in parts of N.Y. county where paralysis case was found

Samples of the virus found in wastewater suggest it is spreading in the area, but vaccination provides near-total protection.

www.nbcnews.com

 

[Bubba98]

Polio vaccination rate for 2-year-olds is as low as 37% in parts of N.Y. county where paralysis case was found

Samples of the virus found in wastewater suggest it is spreading in the area, but vaccination provides near-total protection.

www.nbcnews.com

I believe the polio outbreak was caused by a vaccinated individual most likely from the UK or Israel and spread within the community. They traced it back to an oral vaccine that is not used in the US due to its ability to infect others. Since NY (politicians from a particular party) decided to go full lockdown, school aged children might not have been up to date on their shots. That was the concern.

An argument was made to me trying to justify legalization of hard drugs. I said it was a bad and lazy argument to base it on the fact that I drink coffee and if I don't have it I get a headache and some brain fog therefore I'm a drug addict that is successful in life. You are playing with definitions in a similar way. A mandate has to be justified. Stop infection and transmission was used. A danger to those healthy under 55yo was also used.

 

[owlegrad]

A danger to those healthy under 55yo was also used.

Are you saying there is *no* danger to people under 55yo? Or that there is some level of risk but not high enough to justify getting a vaccine? Or am I misunderstanding you altogether?

 

[Bubba98]

Are you saying there is *no* danger to people under 55yo? Or that there is some level of risk but not high enough to justify getting a vaccine? Or am I misunderstanding you altogether?

I'm talking about mandates

 

[owlegrad]

I'm talking about mandates

Ok so do you or do you not think there is a risk to people under 55yo?

 

[Bubba98]

Ok so do you or do you not think there is a risk to people under 55yo?

(False dichotomy) I didn't create this thread to talk about relative risk among age groups. Happy to talk about it if you want on another thread that you can create.

 

[owlegrad]

(False dichotomy) I didn't create this thread to talk about relative risk among age groups. Happy to talk about it if you want on another thread that you can create.

You are the one that brought it up! But fine, you don’t want to discuss the issue you brought up.

Also I gave three options originally (the third being to ask you what you meant if not the first two) so hardly a false dichotomy. And it seems to me that either you think there is a risk or not so I am not totally sure how even the first part is a false dichotomy but maybe it is in some way I am not seeing.

 

[RxPreceptor]

Petty Betty everyone

 

[BenJammin]

The only mandate I used to support but no longer is the mask mandate.

 

[Bubba98]

The only mandate I used to support but no longer is the mask mandate.

Even now? So you are in charge. You have a few million 20 somethings all over the US who refuse to comply. People much smarter than me asking you to medically justify it. Then the optics and logistics of enforcing that. Think it through. It gets silly.

 

[BenJammin]

Even now? So you are in charge. You have a few million 20 somethings all over the US who refuse to comply. People much smarter than me asking you to medically justify it. Then the optics and logistics of enforcing that. Think it through. It gets silly.

Huh?

 

[Old Timer]

I believe the polio outbreak was caused by a vaccinated individual most likely from the UK or Israel and spread within the community. They traced it back to an oral vaccine that is not used in the US due to its ability to infect others. Since NY (politicians from a particular party) decided to go full lockdown, school aged children might not have been up to date on their shots. That was the concern.

An argument was made to me trying to justify legalization of hard drugs. I said it was a bad and lazy argument to base it on the fact that I drink coffee and if I don't have it I get a headache and some brain fog therefore I'm a drug addict that is successful in life. You are playing with definitions in a similar way. A mandate has to be justified. Stop infection and transmission was used. A danger to those healthy under 55yo was also used.

You are correct in that this outbreak in NY was due to a person from outside the US bringing in Polio form the oral vaccine. However, if the community in NY was fully vaccinated this would not be an issue. We stopped using the OPV years ago. BTW, OPV, does stop transmission and that is why it is used in other parts of the world where Polio is still spreading. The IPV used in the US does NOT stop transmission.

Then you go off into cloud ****oo land. Your coffee argument is a simply stunning straw man, which you knock down with ease but has nothing to do with the question at hand.

Then you show your stripes. It happens sooner or later. You lose all pretense of being about science and go into full anti-vax mode. You could be RFK, Jr under the mask. So buckle up buttercup and let's get to the truth.

Vaccine mandates are as American as apple pie. On January 5, 1777 General and future President George Washington required all troops to be vaccinated against smallpox. ALL 50 states mandate Polio vaccine to attend public school. From a time when Americans weren't so ****ing selfish. Vaccine mandates by state for pre-school and day care:

History of vaccine mandates in the US

Next you go to page 1 in the anti-vaxer hand book. The covid vaccines don't stop transmission. Are you ready for this? The vaccines were NOT designed to stop transmission. The EUA guidance from the FDA required only 50% efficacy against infection and 2 months of safety data. Everyone was shocked and I mean shocked when the original vaccines reduced transmission by 95-95%. You can see by these two graphs that before Delta and Omicron, the vaccine crushed transmission. Banish this idea that we only vaccinate to stop transmission. These particualr vaccines were developed to stop severe disease and death and they have been wildly successful, that they gave us a carefree summer in 2021 was a bonus.

Now Imagine what the death curve would have looked like without vaccines. Now further imagine what the death curve would have looked like if we had mandated vaccines.

Next, I really cant believe I have to explain basic immunology to pharmacists, but here goes. There is no IM vaccine that will create sterilizing mucosal antibodies in the nose, mouth throat to repel a respiratory virus. We will need an an initial IM vaccine and a follow up nasal booster. Great work at Yale being done on this as we speak.

Next you glom on to the lie that people under 55 are not really effected by Covid. This is total BS. To let it rip for the 275 million Americans under 65 would rselt in over 600K deaths with and IFR of 0.2% Seems far better to have mandated the vaccines rather than have the death and suffering associated with the vaccinate the old philosophy. You also act as if death was the only bad outcome. You fail to account for the strain on the healthcare system, the effect on the economy of lost labor. You also ignore long Covid and what you fail to accept is Covid is an inflammatory disease that effects the endothelium. The long term effect of Covid on the human body is unknown. Best to do everything n our power to avoid it.

It would have been best to vaccinate everyone and to look out for our fellow citizens and not be so shortsighted and selfish.


From a purely scientfic POV, the mRNA Covid vaccines are safe and effective. We should put our politics aside and get vaccinated.

 

[WorthlessOxygen]

Vaccine mandates by state for pre-school and day care:

My biggest surprise today: I think I should cut back on **** talking Ohio

 

[RxPreceptor]

OMG WV…yeah, going to take a long time to undo your reputation
PA looking like a good place to live long term

 

[GrandTheftAutumn]

Does South Dakota even exist?

 

[BidingMyTime]

Does South Dakota even exist?

Yes, but not in the same sense as other states. South Dakota is completely filled with cattle and oil rigs, humans go there during the day to work, but nobody actually lives there.

 

[Dred Pirate]

Not to be “that guy” The oil rigs are actually in North Dakota But the test is right.

Yes, but not in the same sense as other states. South Dakota is completely filled with cattle and oil rigs, humans go there during the day to work, but nobody actually lives there.

 

[Bubba98]

You are correct in that this outbreak in NY was due to a person from outside the US bringing in Polio form the oral vaccine. However, if the community in NY was fully vaccinated this would not be an issue. We stopped using the OPV years ago. BTW, OPV, does stop transmission and that is why it is used in other parts of the world where Polio is still spreading. The IPV used in the US does NOT stop transmission.

Then you go off into cloud ****oo land. Your coffee argument is a simply stunning straw man, which you knock down with ease but has nothing to do with the question at hand.

Then you show your stripes. It happens sooner or later. You lose all pretense of being about science and go into full anti-vax mode. You could be RFK, Jr under the mask. So buckle up buttercup and let's get to the truth.

Vaccine mandates are as American as apple pie. On January 5, 1777 General and future President George Washington required all troops to be vaccinated against smallpox. ALL 50 states mandate Polio vaccine to attend public school. From a time when Americans weren't so ****ing selfish. Vaccine mandates by state for pre-school and day care:
View attachment 359666
History of vaccine mandates in the US

Next you go to page 1 in the anti-vaxer hand book. The covid vaccines don't stop transmission. Are you ready for this? The vaccines were NOT designed to stop transmission. The EUA guidance from the FDA required only 50% efficacy against infection and 2 months of safety data. Everyone was shocked and I mean shocked when the original vaccines reduced transmission by 95-95%. You can see by these two graphs that before Delta and Omicron, the vaccine crushed transmission. Banish this idea that we only vaccinate to stop transmission. These particualr vaccines were developed to stop severe disease and death and they have been wildly successful, that they gave us a carefree summer in 2021 was a bonus.View attachment 359664

View attachment 359665

Now Imagine what the death curve would have looked like without vaccines. Now further imagine what the death curve would have looked like if we had mandated vaccines.

Next, I really cant believe I have to explain basic immunology to pharmacists, but here goes. There is no IM vaccine that will create sterilizing mucosal antibodies in the nose, mouth throat to repel a respiratory virus. We will need an an initial IM vaccine and a follow up nasal booster. Great work at Yale being done on this as we speak.

Next you glom on to the lie that people under 55 are not really effected by Covid. This is total BS. To let it rip for the 275 million Americans under 65 would rselt in over 600K deaths with and IFR of 0.2% Seems far better to have mandated the vaccines rather than have the death and suffering associated with the vaccinate the old philosophy. You also act as if death was the only bad outcome. You fail to account for the strain on the healthcare system, the effect on the economy of lost labor. You also ignore long Covid and what you fail to accept is Covid is an inflammatory disease that effects the endothelium. The long term effect of Covid on the human body is unknown. Best to do everything n our power to avoid it.

It would have been best to vaccinate everyone and to look out for our fellow citizens and not be so shortsighted and selfish.


From a purely scientfic POV, the mRNA Covid vaccines are safe and effective. We should put our politics aside and get vaccinated.

IFR is closer to 0.03%

 

[Old Timer]

IFR is closer to 0.03%

So do the match and tell me how 1 milllion people died?

 

[Bubba98]

So do the match and tell me how 1 milllion people died?

Age-stratified infection fatality rate of COVID-19 in the non-elderly informed from pre-vaccination national seroprevalence studies

The infection fatality rate (IFR) of COVID-19 among non-elderly people in the absence of vaccination or prior infection is important to estimate accurately, since 94% of the global population is younger than 70 years and 86% is younger than 60 years. In systematic searches in SeroTracker and...

www.medrxiv.org

 

[Bubba98]

So do the match and tell me how 1 milllion people died?

And the "carefree summer in 2021" you mention is the smoking gun against you. You admit (I would argue belatedly) that the jabs were never meant to stop transmission but how many people went recklessly enjoying life that summer jabbed thinking they were bulletproof?

 

[Bubba98]

You are a fraud

 

[Old Timer]

And the "carefree summer in 2021" you mention is the smoking gun against you. You admit (I would argue belatedly) that the jabs were never meant to stop transmission but how many people went recklessly enjoying life that summer jabbed thinking they were bulletproof?

That is correct. Thee is NO WAY an IM injection of any kind could stimulate the production of IG-A antibodies in the nose and throat to prevent all infections of a respiratory virus. If you however, you are now going to argue that since transmission sould not be stopped, the vaccine is useless, you are proving that you barely passed immunology or forgot everything you know about vaccines. The IM Polio vaccine does not stop transmission, yet until the emergence of the ant0cax movement kead to pockets of people insufficiently vaccinated, it kept Polio at bay and until this year, Polio was considered eradicated in the US. So stopping transmission is not the be all and end all. The vaccines were designed to to prevent severe disease and death and they did that very well. If people decide to behave badly, that has nothing to do with the vaccine.
The vaccine is safe. The vaccine is effective. The vaccine saved millions of lives