Australian vs. US Med Schools

[Highly]

Does anyone have the background or knowledge to comment on the differences or pros/cons of Australian vs. US medical schools? I'm at the tough point where I have to decide SOON whether to go to University of Sydney or the US. (I've had 4 interviews in the US, 3 more to go, 1 acceptance so far.)

A little background: I'm Australian, grew up in Melbourne and went to university in the States, where I'm now living and working.

Any input at all would be appreciated. Thanks

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[driedcaribou]

It boils down to the question of where do you want to practice when you graduate and what area of medicine are you interested in?

If you search the forums, there have been many discussions on how difficult it is for someone who graduates outside of the US to go to the US to practice. Search around for a bit and you'll find some really good information.

As an Australian, it would be cheaper for you to go to school (or 'Uni') there.
If you stay in the US, you would have an easier time getting into a residency of your choice if you graduate from a US school.

 

[pitman]

Not that it's all that more difficult getting a US residency as an IMG (American from a foreign school) assuming you don't want a competitive specialty. However, as an FMG (foreigner, foreign school), it'll be a bit more difficult than as an IMG. If you're competent, independent, want to be a generalist, this doesn't need to be an issue. It didn't affect my decision one iota, though others place a lot of weight on it (and some tools who troll this forum try to claim that this issue means the only reason to go abroad is if you couldn't hack it in the US -- silly drivel!). I'm not disagreeing much with driedcaribou, but I'd say that this all boils down to how one weighs any perceived benefits of Aussie med (e.g., adventure, different training, cheaper, etc.) against needing to do a little better on average on USMLE I than you would if you were a US grad, to get the same slot.

To confuse the point some more...where you want to do your res will probably be a bigger determinant of where you should go. In either country, there are significant hurdles to practicing if you had a foreign residency. In the US, you'll pretty much have to start over, and in Australia, you'll have to repeat some of that training. Search the forums (I think redshifteffect talks a lot about this) for more details.

Other considerations:

Australian schools have a far less competitive atmosphere -- students don't compete for internship slots since they are assigned by random ballot.

Australian schools teach a bit less reliance on high tech expensive tests

Australian schools teach less basic science, with a bit more clinical, so studying some extra for USMLE part I will be up to you. USyd will be pure PBL, with almost everything learned 'centered' around cases, with science and clinical application significantly integrated from the start. Some love this, some hate it.

 

[Winged Scapula]

MY observations are that the Aussie schools teach much less basic science (which unfortunately IS needed to practice medicine despite what they'll tell you, unless you enjoy not knowing why certain medications work, where certain vessels are, etc.) and the students have much less expectations/skills at the senior level. Oftentimes I was told, "You'll learn this as an intern", unfortunately, having worked in the US and lived with medical students and residents I knew that some skills and knowledge was already expected here as a senior student, and couldn't wait for intern year.

This doesn't mean you can't catch up, you simply have to do more as a student at Oz so that you will be on par with your US colleagues if you decide to come here for residency (as an example when I was at Flinders we didn't take call, didn't write notes on our patients, rarely did procedures like central lines or chest tubes. But I spent a LOT of outside time hanging around the OR so got to suture heaps, learn names of instruments and the general procedures of the OR much better than my colleagues.)

As said above, go to school where you want to do your residency it will make the transition easier. And do your residency where you want to practice.

 

[pitman]

Kimberli, you sound like you've hardened your position somewhat over the years! I don't see it as black-and-white for where to go to school vs. residency+practice, but do think it's important for everyone to do their own cost benefit analysis before embarking. Yes, easier to get res where you go to school, but that doesn't necessarily mean do it that way, even with a choice. Of course, I don't have the luxury of hindsight yet .

-pitman

 

[Winged Scapula]

Kimberli, you sound like you've hardened your position somewhat over the years! I don't see it as black-and-white for where to go to school vs. residency+practice, but do think it's important for everyone to do their own cost benefit analysis before embarking. Yes, easier to get res where you go to school, but that doesn't necessarily mean do it that way, even with a choice. Of course, I don't have the luxury of hindsight yet .

-pitman

Of course, many of us either don't have the luxury of going to school stateside or choose not to do so for many reasons. However, it sounds as if the OP has a resonable chance to go to school in the US and unless he has a burning desire to study in Oz, my point was that it would be much easier to stay in the states provided he wanted to do residency there - if he were thinking about post-grad training in Oz, then he should study there.

I HAVE hardened my position over the years, especially now that I have more contact with medical students here and see how much less I know, especially with regard to basic science, than they do. I also now see how much basic science is useful in clinical practice. And its not stuff I once knew and forgot, its stuff I either never learned or didn't learn well enough to really know and use. Its pretty embarassing at times frankly. But I don't blame Flinders per se, although they were (at the time, perhaps its changed now) a bit cavalier about what we needed or know or how much US students learned; I simply should have studied and learned more on my own.

 

[pitman]

So studying enough science to do well on USMLE I wasn't sufficient to feel on par? Is this chiefly biochem and anatomy?

 

[driedcaribou]

But I don't blame Flinders per se, although they were (at the time, perhaps its changed now) a bit cavalier about what we needed or know or how much US students learned; I simply should have studied and learned more on my own.

Wow. I thought I was just being a fussy whinger when I complained how the University of Sydney's Graduate program lacked a lot of teaching in the Basic Sciences.

At my stage, I can only speculate how useful learning a lot of the basic science is but instructors all give the excuse that you'll 'learn it later'.
I suspect this attitude is partly because they've done medicine for so long that everything they know seems 'easy' by now.

Do you think this is more of a flaw of the Graduate program?

I hear rumours how the old Undergraduate programs had a lot more foundation in the Basic Sciences.

 

[Mike84]

Hi Kimberli,

I'm a Canadian undergrad who is looking into applying to Australia or Ireland for medical school. Do you know what the U.S. match success rate is for Canadians who go to an Oz school ? (Or where I can find out that info?)

I heard that Oz schools do not really prepare you for the USMLE.

Of course, many of us either don't have the luxury of going to school stateside or choose not to do so for many reasons. However, it sounds as if the OP has a resonable chance to go to school in the US and unless he has a burning desire to study in Oz, my point was that it would be much easier to stay in the states provided he wanted to do residency there - if he were thinking about post-grad training in Oz, then he should study there.

I HAVE hardened my position over the years, especially now that I have more contact with medical students here and see how much less I know, especially with regard to basic science, than they do. I also now see how much basic science is useful in clinical practice. And its not stuff I once knew and forgot, its stuff I either never learned or didn't learn well enough to really know and use. Its pretty embarassing at times frankly. But I don't blame Flinders per se, although they were (at the time, perhaps its changed now) a bit cavalier about what we needed or know or how much US students learned; I simply should have studied and learned more on my own.

 

[Winged Scapula]

Hi Kimberli,

I'm a Canadian undergrad who is looking into applying to Australia or Ireland for medical school. Do you know what the U.S. match success rate is for Canadians who go to an Oz school ? (Or where I can find out that info?)

I heard that Oz schools do not really prepare you for the USMLE.

Mike...

I don't know whether or not that data has been collected. With the exception of visa issues, I wouldn't expect that Canucks would have any more difficulty in landing a US residency position than any other FMG. You can certainly contact each school, but again since the numbers are still relatively few, I'm not sure you'll get an accurate representation.

 

[Winged Scapula]

So studying enough science to do well on USMLE I wasn't sufficient to feel on par? Is this chiefly biochem and anatomy?

Depends on what your definition of "doing well" is! I passed on the first try, but I would hardly impress anyone with my score. Therefore, if you did well, perhaps you would feel on par, but I never did, and I don't think that even if I had a better score I would have felt on par because most of my knowledge was "cramming" and not true, lasting knowledge (whatever that is - ie, I don't feel like I had enough of a base to do more than memorize for the exam).

But yes, I would say that my main weaknesses are biochem, anatomy (which isn't really tested on USMLE anyway), physiology, etc...basically all the basic sciences! I don't use Path or Embryo every day, but the 3 mentioned above I do, and find it difficult to learn these as well as the general stuff about being a surgeon.

 

[Winged Scapula]

Wow. I thought I was just being a fussy whinger when I complained how the University of Sydney's Graduate program lacked a lot of teaching in the Basic Sciences.

At my stage, I can only speculate how useful learning a lot of the basic science is but instructors all give the excuse that you'll 'learn it later'.
I suspect this attitude is partly because they've done medicine for so long that everything they know seems 'easy' by now.

Do you think this is more of a flaw of the Graduate program?

I hear rumours how the old Undergraduate programs had a lot more foundation in the Basic Sciences.

The old 6 year programs DID have a lot more emphasis on the basic sciences and while the literature suggests that in the end (ie, during residency) there is no appreciable difference in skill sets between PBL and more traditional curriculums, I suspect that the PBL format was not really designed for teaching the basic sciences and while trialed at Harvard, most of us are not Harvard material and require a little more formal teaching.

So I don't think it a flaw of the grad program as much as its a flaw of the use of PBL - its great for clinical sciences, ethics and the like, but to learn biochem, anatomy, etc. you need a more traditional approach - at least most of us do. And I really thought I'd learn better in a PBL format - was a real proponent of it in the beginning - but cannot get away from the need for more lectures, exams, etc. for *most* of us.

I LOL when I read your comment about being told you'll "learn it later". I was told the same thing when I whinged about it as well. Trouble was, it turned out that later was during my intern year, which is structured much differently in Oz than it is in the US. I was already expected to know a lot of things like how to treat electrolyte imbalances, possible consequences of imbalance and its treatment, drug interactions, etc. when I started as an intern here. So I wasn't really behind my colleagues in Oz, having graduated in the top 1/3 of my class, but have heard time and time again that my knowledge base is poor in comparison to my colleagues here. Clinically, I'm fine...its the basic sci stuff I lack (and we still get tested on it every year on our annual Surgery in-training exam).

 

[driedcaribou]

I was already expected to know a lot of things like how to treat electrolyte imbalances, possible consequences of imbalance and its treatment, drug interactions, etc. when I started as an intern here.

Do you feel you get looked down upon by your colleagues in the US?
Are you disadvantaged in anyway because of this?

I also heard that in 3rd year and 4th year we don't get as much responsibility as they would in Canada and Australia.

 

[Winged Scapula]

Do you feel you get looked down upon by your colleagues in the US?
Are you disadvantaged in anyway because of this?

I also heard that in 3rd year and 4th year we don't get as much responsibility as they would in Canada and Australia.

I have never noticed any overt stigma. Most of the residents and faculty either don't know where I went to medical school, have forgotten or don't care. The most common reaction when asked and I answer is, "cool".

I would definitely say its true that medical students in Oz have way less responsibility than students in the US, now that I've gotten a chance to work closely with senior US students and know what the expectations are. OTOH, when I rotated in the US as a 4th year student doing electives, I was told I was much better clinically than most of the US students. I attributed this to being more mature and comfortable with patients and spending a LOT of time outside of that required in the OR, suturing, and doing other procedural tasks. But in general, this would require going "above and beyond the (expected) call of duty" in Oz.

 

[BCE]

Part of the problem is you guys are taking the Australian medical degree in isolation from the post-graduate medical education.

Basic sciences are taught in much greater detail as a junior resident and examined in the primary specialty examinations. (Although I think medical school teaching of basic sciences has declined, particularly in anatomy over the last decade)

It may seem dumb but thats the English model of medical education that we are stuck with Im afraid. Its unfair of you to cristise the lack of basic sciences when you have only done half the package.

US = 4 years under grad + 4 years med + 3-7 years respidency = 11-15 years training = competent specialist

Oz = (3 years undergrad + 4 years med) or 6 years med + 8ish years post grad = 14-15 years = competent specialist

To the OP

If you want to work in Oz - train in Oz
If you want to work in the US - train the US - if you have this option and you want to practice in the states it would be silly to train in Oz

cheers

BCE

 

[Winged Scapula]

Part of the problem is you guys are taking the Australian medical degree in isolation from the post-graduate medical education.

Basic sciences are taught in much greater detail as a junior resident and examined in the primary specialty examinations. (Although I think medical school teaching of basic sciences has declined, particularly in anatomy over the last decade)

It may seem dumb but thats the English model of medical education that we are stuck with Im afraid. Its unfair of you to cristise the lack of basic sciences when you have only done half the package.

US = 4 years under grad + 4 years med + 3-7 years respidency = 11-15 years training = competent specialist

Oz = (3 years undergrad + 4 years med) or 6 years med + 8ish years post grad = 14-15 years = competent specialist

To the OP

If you want to work in Oz - train in Oz
If you want to work in the US - train the US - if you have this option and you want to practice in the states it would be silly to train in Oz

cheers

BCE

You are correct of course, that we are not getting the entire training by only doing the medicine course. The problem IMHO is that the Australian graduate entry programs are being MARKETED to US students as an equivalent to a US medical education, one that prepares you to start residency. This is simply not so, at least with regards to basic science preparation. Yes, we were told time and time again, "you'll learn this in your intern/RMO years", and this would be true for those staying in Oz.

However, at the time I trained there, we essentially were told we were not allowed to stay after graduation (and as a matter of fact, were required to sign a statement to that fact) and were expected to go back to the states along with the afore-mentioned premise that we were being taught enough basic science to practice medicine well in that environment. My feeling was and continues to be that if you market yourself to a certain population of students and tell that they will be getting the educational equivalent of "X", then it should be so. If we had been told that we would not receive the basic science training of our US colleagues and that we would have to stay in Oz for another year or two (should that be allowed) to gain it, I suspect many would haven chosen to train elsewhere.

 

[pitman]

If you want to work in Oz - train in Oz
If you want to work in the US - train the US - if you have this option and you want to practice in the states it would be silly to train in Oz

Careful here -- without more qualification, I disagree with this assertion -- it's not silly to train in Oz if you want to practice in the US and can train in the US. There are a myriad of factors affecting our decisions to train overseas, and none are so absolute. Ppl should be well-informed of all the implications (objective data), yes, but should make their own weighed (subjective) judgments.

-pitman

 

[driedcaribou]

Part of the problem is you guys are taking the Australian medical degree in isolation from the post-graduate medical education.

It may seem dumb but thats the English model of medical education that we are stuck with Im afraid. Its unfair of you to cristise the lack of basic sciences when you have only done half the package.

It is not unfair for us to criticize the system because we are comparing one undergraduate progam to another undergraduate program. Post-graduate training is not part of the 'package' International Students pay for.
If students in Australia get less responsibility than students in North America, that's a fact. It's not a judgement.

Is it wrong to want more education? After all, isn't it the patient who will benefit from more knowledgable practitioners?

We did not say the system was dumb nor were we attacking it.
No one has mentioned that the Australian medical system and its doctors are inferior which is what your reply implies (which is the only reason why I can see you added the number of years of training to your reply).

Perhaps you missed all the good things we mentioned about the Australian programs?

Kimberli has already mentioned some wonderful points as well although I don't feel as if the program was marketed toward Canadians.

The only thing I have to add that it is easier these days to do post-graduate training in Australia.

If you want to work in Oz - train in Oz
If you want to work in the US - train the US - if you have this option and you want to practice in the states it would be silly to train in Oz

I agree with pitman that we all have our reasons for choosing to go overseas to train and learn.

However, I believe it is much easier for one who has finished post-graduate training in the US to practice in Australia than one who has finished post-graduate training in Australia to practice in the US. The US has much more restrictions than Australia with regards to foreign doctors.

I think your view that teaching on the basic sciences is declining may actually be a worldwide phenomenon. It seems as if medical education is undergoing another change... I could be wrong... but in general the focus towards doctor patient relationships seems to take more priority than basic sciences in institutions now.

 

[pitman]

However, I believe it is much easier for one who has finished post-graduate training in the US to practice in Australia than one who has finished post-graduate training in Australia to practice in the US. The US has much more restrictions than Australia with regards to foreign doctors.

Agreed. With regard to residency + practice in the US following Aussie (any int'l) degree, the difficulty to weigh against any benefits is twofold:

1) getting residency is a bit more difficult in that on average one needs to do a bit better on USMLE than US counterparts for a given slot. This hurdle is pretty small if you want to be a generalist, but is more prohibitive the more competitive the specialty. FMGs have the added difficulty of having to get a visa.

2) kimberli's point -- once training/practicing in the US, the practical problem of not being up to par w/ US grads in the basic sciences

With regard to doing residency in another country, then practicing in the US, I'm not as informed but basically the hurdle is higher -- you'd need to repeat much of residency in the US. The other way around, to practice in Australia I think you start further on in their system if you're certified and you're mostly held back only until you pass the college's exams(?)

ok, just reread the thread and noticed I'm just repeating myself and others -- sorry!

-pitman

 

[BCE]

Ok points taken, its unfair of Australian universities to market themselves as offering the complete package to overseas students. I think the Oz medical course graduates competent doctors compared to the US - in my limited - read 6 months - experience of working in the US. But they are clearly behind in basic sciences because of how they are delivered across both undergraduate and post-graduate medical education in Oz.

Sure if you have exceptional strong personal reasons to train in Oz and then move back to the US then fine. I still think you are making life needlessly hard for yourselves if you have a place offered in a US school and want to do a US residency and you choose to train in Oz. Obviously its a personal decision.

As a Specialist Emergency Phyisican, the only hurdles to practicing in the US is the USMLE and insurance. Most hospitals will accept the FACEM as equivelent to the ABEM - but require insurance cover. It varies from state to state, but most of the large insurers will cover FACEM qualified Emergency Physicians - the main issue is USMLE. I had no problems either getting work or insurance. It may vary for different specialties.I agree the process is easier in reverse - but only on short term contacts - permenant migration has another set of licencing hurdles.

cheers

BCE

 

[pitman]

As a Specialist Emergency Phyisican, the only hurdles to practicing in the US is the USMLE and insurance. Most hospitals will accept the FACEM as equivelent to the ABEM - but require insurance cover. It varies from state to state, but most of the large insurers will cover FACEM qualified Emergency Physicians - the main issue is USMLE. I had no problems either getting work or insurance. It may vary for different specialties.I agree the process is easier in reverse - but only on short term contacts - permenant migration has another set of licencing hurdles.

BCE, could you elaborate on what you did, I don't understand the initialisms? You're an emergency physician, trained and registered in Australia, and are in the US (for how long?) working in emergency med. Hurdles were getting insurance (no problem) and passing USMLE -- does this mean you're back in training or no? What about visa?

Thanks.

-pitman

 

[sjkpark]

Decided to participate in flame war.

Kimberli, I am surprised that you didn't write notes and take calls as a student in Flinders. This is routinely done in New Zealand by medical students, and in many specialties you are required to do this to pass the run.
(Although this depends heavily on registrars: my psych reg did not call me once during 6 weeks because it was the end of the year and he knew that I was getting stressed out by the exams - he was nice enough to sign it off)

Also very interesting discussion re: basic sciences. Yes, I think we are more cavalier as people than Americans and this reflects in the medical education.
However, I think if you only rely on medical school to teach you *everything* that you need to know as a houseman, you get what you deserve. I think medical school teaches you bare minimum amount so that you can build your own knowledge. Don't sell your basic medical texts just because you're done with first 2 years of medical school!

To OP (reiterating)
If you want to practice in the States, go to a medical school in the States.
If you want to practice in Aussie, go to school in Aussie.

If you are thinking about competitive specialty, this is very very very important. Don't think you could waltz into something like ophthalmology or rads in Australia or New Zealand with your degree from the States. They make it very clear that preference is given to their own graduates. I don't have delusions about matching into those specialties in the States.

Post-graduate training is not part of the 'package' International Students pay for.
If students in Australia get less responsibility than students in North America, that's a fact. It's not a judgement.

Is it wrong to want more education? After all, isn't it the patient who will benefit from more knowledgable practitioners?

But should we overhaul our medical education system for the benefit of fewer foreign students who are aiming for USMLE? I'm not defending Flinders, I'm not familiar with their curriculum, and I don't know how they advertised themselves. But yes, they are *equivalent* in terms of their degree being recognised in the States, provided that you go through the trouble to gain ECFMG certificate.

But you would be naive to have thought that an Australian school would prepare you for US postgraduate education. Australian medical schools exist primarily to produce doctors for Australian taxpayers. They are not there to prepare Australian graduates to sit USMLE; they are to prepare them well to become competent house officers in Australian hospitals.

Do you know the 1st time pass rate for FRACP Part I? 50%
Do you know the 1st time pass rate for FRANZCP Part I? 42%

Whereas if an American residency programme had such an appalling pass rate for board exam, they would have gotten their accreditation taken away. So here's our big catch-up.

The only thing I have to add that it is easier these days to do post-graduate training in Australia.

Easier than what? Easier for whom? It's not easier academically, as exemplified by above pass rates for specialty part I's.

However, I believe it is much easier for one who has finished post-graduate training in the US to practice in Australia than one who has finished post-graduate training in Australia to practice in the US. The US has much more restrictions than Australia with regards to foreign doctors.

But post-graduate training from Australia is recognised in other countries, such as NZ, UK, and Canada, which may not accept US qualification.

 

[Winged Scapula]

Decided to participate in flame war.

Kimberli, I am surprised that you didn't write notes and take calls as a student in Flinders. This is routinely done in New Zealand by medical students, and in many specialties you are required to do this to pass the run.
(Although this depends heavily on registrars: my psych reg did not call me once during 6 weeks because it was the end of the year and he knew that I was getting stressed out by the exams - he was nice enough to sign it off)

I wrote some notes but we were told not to pre-round and instead rounded on patients as a team, so the notes were usually written either by one of the House Officers or the Consultant.

An interesting, and true story will reflect the attitude toward students taking call when I was at Flinders. When I was rotating on Ob-Gyn during my 3rd year I decided to take overnight call because a) I enjoyed the rotation and wanted to see more deliveries, b) because I felt it was important to take call to "see what it was like" , c) despite being told frequently by the residents and nurses that they would call me at home if there was an impending delivery, it never happened and d) my rotation was in January, the hospital was air-conditioned and my house was not!

So I hung around the ward until about midnight when it seemed to slow and we had no imminent babies coming. I then searched for the "Medical student call room" which I was told existed by Flinders faculty and administration. After no success, I contacted hospital security and they finally located a listing of all the call rooms, their locations and even produced a key to the listed medical student call room. By this time it was nearly 1:30 am and no sooner had I slipped between the cool sheets when I was confronted with a loud pouding on the door. It was one of the medical residents who had co-opted the room. He never had a key obviously, simply left the room open, but preferred this room and told me it was "his", despite the clear sign on the door designating it as a medical student call room. Not wishing to escalate his ire any mkore I left, but not before he advised me that if I needed a place to sleep I could easily (ha ha if you know Flinders) rent a room in Student Housing. I didn't need a place to sleep, I had my own place less than 2 blocks from the hospital. I proceeded to spend the night in the Ob-Gyn break room. When I mentioned this to the faculty/administration no one seemed to be concerned; it seems as students never really took call and they couldn't understand why I would want to, as "its not required, you know".

When it came time for my Surgery rotation, I hung out in the OR lounge and the residents knew to find me there if they had an ER consult or an OR case for me to assist on. So that was the end of taking call as a student at Flinders; it simply wasn't required and the situation seemed to actually discourage it.[/QUOTE=sjkpark]

Also very interesting discussion re: basic sciences. Yes, I think we are more cavalier as people than Americans and this reflects in the medical education. However, I think if you only rely on medical school to teach you *everything* that you need to know as a houseman, you get what you deserve. I think medical school teaches you bare minimum amount so that you can build your own knowledge. Don't sell your basic medical texts just because you're done with first 2 years of medical school!

I'm not sure anyone was advocating forgetting your basic sciences or the idea that medical school teaches you everything you need to know to be a practicing physician. Far from it, I think we would all agree on that point. The argument was that we were not being taught even enough basic sciences to function as a house officer, at least in the US and this was not what we were "sold".

But should we overhaul our medical education system for the benefit of fewer foreign students who are aiming for USMLE? I'm not defending Flinders, I'm not familiar with their curriculum, and I don't know how they advertised themselves. But yes, they are *equivalent* in terms of their degree being recognised in the States, provided that you go through the trouble to gain ECFMG certificate.

Again, no one is arguing that the curriculum needs to be changed or that the degree awarded is in any way substandard to that given in the US and it is recognized by ECFMG and the US medical population as being at *least* equivalent. But the truth is, at least when I was a student at Flinders, the new Australian GEMP schools were marketing themselves aggressively to North Americans (even to the extent to having one faculty member responsible for admissions tell me they "preferred: North Americans over those from other countries as we seemed to assimilate to Aussie customs and lifestyle better), and telling us that we would be taught enough to function well as US residents. They also "promised" additional help with the USMLE as they realized that most Americans and many Canadians and even some Aussies, were interested in taking the exam. The semester started with scheduled supplementary lectures which mostly consisted of faculty telling us, "I don't know what you need to know, so I don't know what to lecture you on" [thanks for the preparation] or, "I can't believe that the American medical establishment really believes that an exam is a good measure of what makes a good physician. Its ridiculous that you have to take this exam...do they really believe that memorizing the Coagulation cascade is going to make you a good doctor...blah blah blah."

Not even a semester later, the lectures simply dropped off and then disappeared without any notice. I was active in developing the USMLE library of books at Flinders as I realized we would have to study outside of the usual course expectations and have stated nothing but the same to any interested parties since. As Student Bookstore manager I also made sure that we carried a large stock of USMLE review books, again because there was such a high demand (1/4 of our class was North American and taking the USMLEs).

So no one is arguing that the schools should do anything different with their curriculum but they need to market themselves more honestly or at least be upfront with the students and tell them there are many aspects of basic science which ARE relevant to the practice of medicine (which we were often told were not) and that X, Y, and Z is missing from the curriculum and will be taught to those students staying on Oz for internship, but those who are not will need to learn it themselves.

But you would be naive to have thought that an Australian school would prepare you for US postgraduate education. Australian medical schools exist primarily to produce doctors for Australian taxpayers. They are not there to prepare Australian graduates to sit USMLE; they are to prepare them well to become competent house officers in Australian hospitals.

Naive? Perhaps. BUT the new GEMP schools aggressively market themselves to North Americans and let's be honest, we are a valuable tuition/$ commodity to them. Those of us who went to Flinders in the early days did not just "happen" upon the idea of going to an Aussie school' they were advertised in the US and rather heavily. Most of us who were more mture realize that these were still Aussie schools and that we would learn information which may not have been directly useful to us as a practitioner in the US (ie, Aussie health care policy or indigenous health issues). I did not go to school in Australia expecting it to be the US. I did however believe them when they said they would adequately prepare us for a US practice. In hindsight since none of them had been in a US medical school or a US resident (many faculty had been US fellows) they probably had little idea of what the day to day practice and fund of knowledge requirements for a US resident were. If you were not aware, the Australian GEMPs were substantially funded by the $30,000 AUD tuition per year per international student. It was often said that without these monies the schools would struggle, having to subsist on "australian taxpayer" monies.

Easier than what? Easier for whom? It's not easier academically, as exemplified by above pass rates for specialty part I's.

I think you misunderstood the poster who said it was easier to do an Aussie residency. He/she meant NOW. In the old days when I was a student the opportunities to stay were slim to nil. It is much easier for someone without Aussie citizenship to stay after medical education for further training. This was not a statement meant to reflect the quality of an Aussie residency; most people, and myself included, think it, in many ways, superior to a US residency. No one is questioning the quality or the difficulty of the training.

But post-graduate training from Australia is recognised in other countries, such as NZ, UK, and Canada, which may not accept US qualification.

I'm not sure this reflects quality rather than similarity of training. Each country has their own right to accept or not training obtained outside of the country. I would have loved to trained in Australia but the US medical establishment, at least in Surgery, does not accept most foreign qualifications for residency. In many cases, this is due to concerns about adequacy and quality of education. But in others, and Australia is likely in this category, the issue is not of quality but simply standardization or simply not wanting to deal with ascertaining the value of all international medical training.

Hope this clarifies things.

 

[Ratan1982]

Is Australia better than Irish Schools? Does anyone know any informationabout this pertinent topic?

 

[pitman]

Pertinent it might be, but that's a question that can't be answered... "better"???

 

[Insider]

Congratulations Kimberli on your accomplishments!

In Oz, you hang out a bit on the wards. I spent weekends and nights in the ED and ER to the great amusement of the staff! Not part of the program, that's for sure. But you keep turning up, provide some nice conversation, and people will involve you to some extent. No real duties. No immersion. In the US, you live and breathe medicine as a med student. If you are a med student in Oz, why not go to the US for a rotation and see for yourself. Maximize your fun, do a surgery clerkship. It was about the most intense experience of my life. I had put in a suture or two in the ED in Oz, canulas, got all dressed up and held a retractor. The only procedure, we had to be officially checked off for during the third year was a PR exam. Interesting choice. I had NO disection experience, had never held a scalpel! And, of course, the PIMPING! Basic science matters! Clinical science matters! Procedures matter! It is the difference between being a doctor and just acting the part!

I too did not think medical school in Australia would be the same as medical school in the US. However, we were repeatedly told that we would get through the same basic science and clinical science just not in the same order. We were told that we might not be prepared for USMLE Step 1 by the end of the 2nd year but by the end of the 4th year we would have covered all the Step I and II material. When students expressed concern about the pace and the coverage, they were always assured that in the end it would all be there. Lots of that sort of talk. The idea being that they might not do things exactly the same way but that it would be comparable. DO NOT COUNT ON IT.

Yes, they did pitch heavily to N. Americans at a time when staying in Oz for internship was not an option. I was interviewed in N. America. I asked specifically about preparation for practice in the US. Told, "Don't worry. It's never been a problem for our graduates". I think there is an element of dishonesty.

The problem is not that these schools do not teach to the USMLE, the problem is that they do not adequately cover the basic OR clinical sciences. They have dreamed up all sorts of filler material to keep you busy. "You learn everything you need to as an intern." It's interesting because the health services complain that the interns aren't coming in prepared.

There is real backlash in Oz now. Loudest outcry probably from pathologists and surgeons. Maybe, things will change. The Ozzie MBBS is NOT equivalent to a US MD except in the sense that it meets an ECFMG requirement. This kind of hard sell by some of the programs is unfortunate.

I think those planning on staying are also being misled. Evidently, internationals do provide a very significant source of financing for GEMPs. Seems, some will say just about anything. Often quite vague promises. Or they will send out some tidbit entitled "International Students Wishing to Stay in Australia After Graduation" and the link will take you to a list of the specialites being recruited as if that would be of any benefit to you.

Is it possible to stay? At the moment, probably, for a year or two. All purpose, workforce filler. Will we be able to get specialty training? Probably not. I think we are being duped. Big changes from year to year, though. I think people planning to spend two years as a JMO, get sponsorship, get PR and then get into one of the college training programs (other than rural GP possibly) are fooling themselves. Yes, they want foreign doctors WHO ARE ALREADY TRAINED (as in qualified in their specialty)! Do they want to train you? NO! Being a RMO in Australia is not equivalent to a US residency!

I knew I was in for an uphill battle from day 1 and I studied so hard. But I had know idea how steep the hill was. During the first week, much of the PBL was devoted to cookie baking schedules and other social planning. I knew I was in trouble. Everyone argued about what they did and did not have to know. In the first couple years, the tutors were often grad students, without science or medical background. Romper room.

Back to the Kaplan! That's what it comes down to! You come this far, finish your degree, you gotta do what you gotta do. I love it though. I believe that I can pass the USMLE. Try as I may, it will not be because I have an intimate knowledge of basic and clinical science.

 

[driedcaribou]

But should we overhaul our medical education system for the benefit of fewer foreign students who are aiming for USMLE?

No one suggested that the system be overhauled for the benefit of a few foreign students. But if a program is marketed toward certain populations than all the issues must be clear to them.
I think this was more complicated when the Australian schools first accepted Internationals and more of the bugs have been sorted out now.

But you would be naive to have thought that an Australian school would prepare you for US postgraduate education. Australian medical schools exist primarily to produce doctors for Australian taxpayers. They are not there to prepare Australian graduates to sit USMLE; they are to prepare them well to become competent house officers in Australian hospitals.

When I was interviewed for the University of Sydney I did not feel like I was marketed in the sense that their medical program would allow me to practice in Canada or the US. However, from what Kim says, it sounds like the program was sold to them in that manner. The fact that the Australian Medical programs require International students for their funding funding dictates that they should shoulder some responsibility in assisting Internationals with their careers.

Easier than what? Easier for whom? It's not easier academically, as exemplified by above pass rates for specialty part I's.

Sorry I did not clarify.
What I meant to say that it is easier now for an International student to stay in the country to train and specialize than it was before due to changes in the immigration policies.

But post-graduate training from Australia is recognised in other countries, such as NZ, UK, and Canada, which may not accept US qualification.

I thought I implied that in my previous posts.

The US is the only country that seems to have the most laws preventing foreign specialists from practicing in the country without having to jump hoops from the beginning.


---

It is important to note that it is not only the International Students who feel their are some holes in the educational system but also some Australians as well.

http://www.adf.com.au/contents.php?subdir=media_rel/2004/&filename=med_edn_25oct04

Pasted is the content from that link:

'Rescuing Medical Education

ADF - Media Release - 25 - October - 2004

* Program & Registration - 405 kb (med_educn.pdf)
* Download Application Form (med_edn_registn.doc)

Rescue Helicopter

Stamford Sydney Airport
O'Riordan St (cnr Robey St), Mascot
18 February 2005

"Without a good understanding of human anatomy and solid experience developing the skills needed to perform surgery, mistakes in the operating theatre are more likely to occur"
Prof John Preston Harris, Canberra Times 8/5/04

These questions need answers:

* Is Medical Education in Crisis? - and if so, who and what is responsible?
* Are we downgrading basic sciences?
* Are our teaching hospitals failing our medical students?
* How do we assess overseas trained medical education and those who claim to be competent medical practitioners? What is the acceptable standard?
* Why private medical schools? Will more medical schools help or hurt standards?
* What is the future of post graduate medical training?

Speakers include:

* Dr Bruce Shepherd, Chairman, Australian Doctors' Fund
* Professor Don Sheldon, Chairman, Council of Procedural Specialists
* Dr Bill Glasson, Federal President, Australian Medical Association
* Professor Helen Beh, CEO, Australian Orthopaedic Association
* Professor John Preston Harris, Lecturer, Sydney University Medical School
* Andrew Perry, Former V/President, Australian Medical Students Association
* Professor Bob Birrell, Centre for Population & Urban Research, Monash University
* Dr Anne Kolbe, President, Royal Australasian College of Surgeons
* Dr Brendan Nelson, Federal Minister for Education, Science & Training
* Professor Phillip Allen, Past President International Academy of Pathologists
* Dr Randall Williams, Senior visiting surgeon, Modbury Hospital
* Professor Guy Maddern, RP Jepson Prof of Surgery, University of Adelaide
* Professor Ian Wronski, Australian College of Rural & Remote Medicine
* Dr Mukesh Haikerwal, Vice President, Federal AMA "



So please don't think that it is only the International students who are judging the Australian medical education.

It is worth mentioning that I am very grateful that the Australian Universities and government allows Internationals to attend their institutions. This policy allows a more diverse cultural background the Australian classes, attracts bright minds around the world and as a bonus, funds their medical programs.

Insider: Thank you for your comments. I thought it was easier to stay to specialize (once you get permanent residence status) but maybe I'm wrong?

 

[deleted59964]

Its unfortunate that some Australian schools have failed to live up to their promises to you north american international students. It's my opinion that the current trend toward PBL is erroding the teaching of basic science in many aussie schools, and that this will run it's course like all other educational fads.

I wonder which programs you are/were enrolled in, are they the graduate entry 4 year programs ? I am an australian doing one of the 6 year programs at a school with a heavy basic science program - I guess my point is that not all aussie schools have the same curriculum. I chose my school because of it's basic science program. If you are considering an aussie school - check out all of them !

 

[Insider]

Its unfortunate that some Australian schools have failed to live up to their promises to you north american international students. It's my opinion that the current trend toward PBL is erroding the teaching of basic science in many aussie schools, and that this will run it's course like all other educational fads.

I wonder which programs you are/were enrolled in, are they the graduate entry 4 year programs ?

YES!

 

[mish]

I'm new to this site and boy am I suprised to hear this discussion about Oz medical education, especially from a foreign perspective.

I am a local student in one of the grad med schools and I can say myself that I have been disappointed at the education standards here and what we are taught.

Well firstly, I have to say that it will always be difficult to bridge the gap between US and Oz medical education. US is a larger market/population, medical technology is so much more advanced, there are just so much more patient cases and exposure that we will probably never see here. I think medicine overall would be so much more demanding as a profession in the US and so the course is much more rigorous.

However, I have to say despite all of that, the amount of basic sciences taught in Oz medical school is a real and serious concern. We are just not taught enough of everything - hardly any biochem, no drug interactions (hell, I haven't even been taught dosages, etc!), physiology is pretty poor and anatomy is limited. At the moment, I don't feel very confident that I won't hurt somebody when I get out. Yes, they do tell us that we will be taught all that "later" but I don't think it is good enough. Even when as an intern, surely you will have some, even if minimal impact on patient's lives. Surely it's best to have a good grounding of the basics before being let out with the potential to hurt somebody. Anyway, basic sciences is necessary to make informed decisions in medicine overall. I understand that unis can neer teach you everything but the courses here are fast becoming a 'do-it-yourself'.

Currently, the program is being taught on a PBL case basis - for example, MI case, hyptertension case, etc...etc....the problem with this is, yes, it will be good if you were ever only exposed to MI and hypertension cases but as we all know, there are a million and one medical problems out there. How are we meant to have a good knowledge of cardio by doing this? I believe it's better to look at the cardiac system overall - function, physiol, etc, etc and then determine what problems might arise from each.

And PBLs - yes, I am not a big fan of them. I totally agree with previous comments regarding it being a "baking day" and what people did over the weekends. Most of the time, I feel it is a total waste of time as it becomes a...'let's see what the textbooks say session'. The tutors - yes, mostly PhDs who have even less of a knowledge of the topic compared to the students they are supposed to look after. Asked once why one tutor decided to help out, reply (although honest) was that it was paying something like A$30 per hour....well, it's all good for them but it's not helping any of us. Sure I can understand they can't get specialist to head every tutorial but surely at least a tutor/lecturer who can contribute something to the group. I've had PBLs which break into factions, others with no idea, others which become a website search fo answers session...most of the time I find it very frustrating. At the end of the day, the PBLs become a "have we guessed all the right things on your sheet tutor?" I might as well spend the 6 hours of tutorials in the library reading my own stuff and learn more things that way.

Regarding how the courses are being marketed to the overseas market - I am going to raise something a bit controversial. Most of the universities in Australia are underfunded. There is not enough government help to improve university resources and overseas students are the next best way to get the money. The courses are being sometimes falsely marketed. I mean, there is no way that an Oz course ever will be the same or reach the same standard as US courses. I've known international students who asked before enrolling whether dissections will be a part of the course and were told "yes, of course". Let me say I have never even been given the opportunity to hold a scapel. Worse, the cadaver sections are already cut up for us (as have been told now that "it takes too long to do dissections") and the very worse of all is that when given the chance to see it, you are told you only have 1.5 hours! Yes - hold semester of cardiology = 1.5 hours of seeing the heart and that's it for the whole of your medical studies.

The other thing I feel is that for the overseas candidates, universities here are accepting almost anyone as long as the money's paid. The US students are actually a very knowledgable bunch overall, but there have been others from other countries who come starting the course who lack even a good command of English. I know someone who wanted to do med but missed all the application deadlines and didn't have good scores but somehow managed to secure one of places anyway. How does this all work! Sometimes I feel a bit disgusted with what is happening.

In general however, I have noticed a decline in the amount of US students in my program (but an increase in Canadian). Not sure whether this is a reflection that US students are realising that the Oz programs are way behind.

I know several who are sitting the USMLE 1 this year and there is no way that someone can pass if just knowing what's taught in the programs alone.
There is so much that you will have to learn yourself. Most of the time I think that my US/Canadian colleagues face a big risk coming here. What happens if you don't pass the test and go back with nothing? Do you have a useless Med degree and wasted 4 years? I know that Oz schools are half the price of the US but I wonder why the big risk?

Anyway, it seems that I have used this post to vent by frustrations unfortunately. I guess even as a local student, I am very dissatisfied with the structure of our programs on offer.

 

[deleted59964]

mish, what was your undergrad degree ? I think part of the problem is that they really expect you to have a science background and so the basic sciences are then given low priority.

Oh and how far into the program are you ?

 

[Insider]

mish, what was your undergrad degree ? I think part of the problem is that they really expect you to have a science background and so the basic sciences are then given low priority.

This is not so. Most of the schools require NO science background.

There is nothing inherently wrong with PBL. It has been around for nearly half a century in US schools (Case Western pioneered it in the 60's and 70's), going in and out of vogue from time to time. However, the way many of these schools are administering it (poor materials, tutors who don't know any medicine, large groups, etc.), PBL is pretty much useless. The issue is execution. This is where some of these Aussie places fall short.

When I got to Australia, PBL was being touted as the greatest thing in medical education. Now, four years later, it has become the code word for everything that is wrong with medical education in Australia.

In any case, the real issue is that the medical sciences and the necessary skills are not being taught. Since it's endemic, Australians will probably be OK. The system will take care of them. For example, the surgeons are trying to figure out how they are going to teach anatomy to those entering surgery. The pathologists are designing bridging courses to get their trainees up to speed. As an international student, you are not going to have access to this further education in the basic and clinical sciences.

 

[sjkpark]

I admit that I had NO IDEA how grad medical education was being done in Oz when I wrote my last post. Tell me, how long is the clinical in 6-year schools?

I agree with most things being said about PBL. I think PBL is great but often introduced too early. PBL can only work if one has solid basic science background. I now enjoy problem sessions and I've been very lucky that all the people who tutored me have been absolutely brilliant (except one - out of 10+). I now find myself going back to 2nd and 3rd year notes frequently and marvel that how little I knew back then, and how I would have appreciated the lectures and workshops a lot more if they were done a little bit later.

 

[pitman]

mish, i'm guessing you're at USyd? I have to say I've had virtually none of your problems at UQ. Yes, more anatomy would be nice, but we do watch many dissections, we do do some (not a lot, but I think enough for most docs) dissecting of our own, and the tutes let us come in pretty much whenever, however much we want. There's also extracurricular anatomy, along with an anatomy competition, that we're allowed to get involved in if we want.

As far as lecturers are concerned, one of our best is a post-doc, otherwise they're usu. full professors (science and clinical alike).

N. Americans here do spend most their USMLE prep time (over 2nd year xmas vacation) on biochem, but physio is pretty strong here.

As far as PBL cases, I'm not sure what the heck they're teaching you or what LOs you're studying, but the cases are chiefly meant to introduce concepts and systems, not just the cases in themselves.

I've also heard a lot of claims about Australian schools supposedly taking anyone. I keep hearing it from ppl (or maybe the same person?) who go to USyd. I do know that UQ and Flinders and Melbourne are pretty picky, w/ most int'ls I've met at those schools from interviewing and Convention scoring in the 30's. Some predict the scores have to go down with the new schools, but that's yet to be seen. Maybe you should go to the Int'l Symposium at Convention this year to get perspectives from int'ls from other schools? I haven't heard about language issues from the many Asians at Convention last year, maybe Sydney bumped up its quota too high?

I'm curious though, how do you know what it takes to pass the USMLE? I honestly haven't even met anyone here who's failed it.

I think there's an interesting trend lately here on the forums...students (or a student) are very unhappy with USyd. People come in to post a few complaints, thinking that what they're experiencing is representative of an entire country, not saying all that much about their school but making some pretty lazy generalizations. Not that they are lazy, but the generalizations that come out are. There isn't even a half-fast attempt by some to even acknowledge that the examples they use are quite specific (and inherent) to a personal experience, or to understand the common thread of the same-minded students who implicitly seek to mould a consensus. I don't think it'll work.

-pitman

 

[deleted59964]

Originally Posted by JobsFan

mish, what was your undergrad degree ? I think part of the problem is that they really expect you to have a science background and so the basic sciences are then given low priority.




This is not so. Most of the schools require NO science background.

------
I know that a science degree is not a requirement, but I think that the majority of applicants have them anyway. I think the academic staff who actually do the teaching (as opposed to the ones making the entry requirements) would be genuinely surprised to know that they are teaching a graduate with a BA majoring in ancient greek history.

 

[deleted59964]

Sorry, cant seem to make the damn quote function work !
For sjkpark .....

These 6 year programs are mainly for school leavers, but do have mature age students (and some internationals) in them as well (most with prior degrees) - mine's nursing.

The first 3 years are pre clinical -

1st year physics, chemistry, biochemistry, anatomy, physiol.
2nd year more anat, physiol.
3rd year clincical sciences - micro, path etc. + more anat, physiol

4 - 6 year clinical

oh and a smattering of soft "professional issues" units throughout.

 

[sjkpark]

These 6 year programs are mainly for school leavers, but do have mature age students (and some internationals) in them as well (most with prior degrees) - mine's nursing.

The first 3 years are pre clinical -

1st year physics, chemistry, biochemistry, anatomy, physiol.
2nd year more anat, physiol.
3rd year clincical sciences - micro, path etc. + more anat, physiol

4 - 6 year clinical

oh and a smattering of soft "professional issues" units throughout.

I know. I go to one in NZ.

I'm just wondering how you guys clinical years are structured. Do you have trainee intern year in Aussie? And how do you guys feel about having to do 3 years of clinical compared to 2 years of clinical that your colleagues in the 4-year schools get?

 

[USMedStudent]

Geez, after all these years, you guys are still debating this issue? I thought people had grown up over the year, but obviously I was wrong. Some people just never grow up, just like TIME said in its cover Jan 24 this year. There are just NO comparisons. Period. The WORST US med school still far surpasses the BEST one in Australia by a million light years. Lately I met up with some FLINDERS old classmates of mine, and oh la la, I could easily beat up their best consultants in every area in medicine that you know how to spell. I frankly was very surprised at how pitifully little they knew. Any nurses in my hospital would know more than the best of them. Even they admitted their inferiority, but they hardly cared, and why should they, because in that part of the world nobody expected them differently. Once they've graduated, they could practically throw all the books away. Their life is so much easier than mine, and I actually envy them. It's not because I am a MD/Ph.D., it's simply because that's the HIGHEST STANDARDS here that I have to meet in order to survive in this extremely competitive medical practice in this country.

One other point is, medicine is NOT just about USMLEs, which by the way FLINDERS students fail at the rate of about 95%. I dare any Australian med schools to release the RATE of their students passing/failing those exams. The few people that passed were very lucky because they took the old paper version or the computer version at its infancy, when just about everyone that took it, passed. Now, the NBME has strengthened its exam software and expectation, and doesn't mind to fail anyone that doesn't meet its highest standards. What that means is, the absolute vast majority of med graduates from Australia can't pass the AMERICAN board exams anymore. The loophole has been closed. Permanently.

But, listen, that's just a tip of the iceberg. Some students could pay a lot of money to KAPLAN to cram just to pass them, but they don't have the kind of deep, profound, insightful, basic sciences KNOWLEDGE that US med students have. It's like you compare the Biblical knowledge between a priest and someone who has recently crammed on it for a few months. Some classmates of mine at FLINDERS were lucky to pass due to intense cramming, but most of them quickly forgot all the materials because by cramming they never really truly UNDERSTOOD basic sciences. The final result is, they have had to re-learn the materials over and over and over again, without ever mastering them. That has hindered them tremendously from enjoying what they are doing. It seems like they're constantly re-learning basic sciences, probably for the rest of their life. I personally was lucky because I did 4.5 years of biomedical graduate research before going to FLINDERS, and now I am actively doing research once again as a clinical medical scientist. I've published a few major papers lately, none of those had anything to do with my useless 4-years at FLINDERS school of med. Even back then, I could've taught many consultants there many lessons in basic sciences, most notably pharmacology, immunology, pathology, biochemistry.

In my practice, now and in the future, I make and will be making it the strongest point NOT to accept any graduates of any Australian med schools, ever. I have nothing against them personally, but I doubt very much the kind of COMPREHENSION in medicine they can possibly have, given their close-to-zero knowledge in basic sciences. True, they can do what they're told, like a robot, but do they really KNOW the WHY, not only the WHAT, of the procedures, the medications, they are offering the patients?

If anyone wants to practice medicine like a good robot would, then Australian med schools would be more than sufficient. If anyone wants to practice medicine in the US, he/she MUST NOT go to Australia.

 

[Purifyer]

Gutted. Can't be bothered reading USMedstudent's several paragraphs of verbal diarrhoea, but I would just like to say how deeply saddened I am that his general opinion seems to be that we suck.

 

[sjkpark]

Gutted. Can't be bothered reading USMedstudent's several paragraphs of verbal diarrhoea, but I would just like to say how deeply saddened I am that his general opinion seems to be that we suck.

The fact that he calls himself a USMedstudent even though he went to an Aussie school shows what an insecure wannabe he is. He probably has to go through his entire life feeling gutted that he couldn't go to a med school in the States - let him be.

Poor bastard.

 

[Insider]

What that means is, the absolute vast majority of med graduates from Australia can't pass the AMERICAN board exams anymore. The loophole has been closed. Permanently.

In my practice, now and in the future, I make and will be making it the strongest point NOT to accept any graduates of any Australian med schools, ever. I have nothing against them personally, but I doubt very much the kind of COMPREHENSION in medicine they can possibly have, given their close-to-zero knowledge in basic sciences. True, they can do what they're told, like a robot, but do they really KNOW the WHY, not only the WHAT, of the procedures, the medications, they are offering the patients?

If anyone wants to practice medicine like a good robot would, then Australian med schools would be more than sufficient. If anyone wants to practice medicine in the US, he/she MUST NOT go to Australia.

If the Australian GEMP schools were ethical, they would quit preying on North American students. They know they have little to offer them. Their standards are frighteningly low and their do-it-yourself approach doesn't work (just look at the hammering it is taking in Australia).

$20,000 and a year of Kaplan might take care of the USMLE. But some of us wanted to learn medicine!

And ask yourself why these diploma mills aren't publishing their statistics? The logical conclusion: because they suck.

 

[deleted59964]

it's no wonder the rest of the world hates america.

 

[Insider]

it's no wonder the rest of the world hates america.

Rest assured, no where does this sentiment run higher than in Australian medical schools. Where they HATE Americans but LOVE your MONEY. Evidently, so much so that they will say just about anything for the cash.

 

[Purifyer]

Rest assured, no where does this sentiment run higher than in Australian medical schools. Where they HATE Americans but LOVE your MONEY. Evidently, so much so that they will say just about anything for the cash.

What's your address in Oz Insider... I'll send you some tissues

 

[pitman]

Ya mon. They hate us all Inside(r). They secretly despise us but like our money. Just tolerating us, like the Jews. I'm so pleased w/ how far you've just stuck your foot into your mouth, Insider, er, doc_with_no_country. thanks.

Maybe it's time to get a new username and reset your counter to 0.

-pitman

 

[pitman]

One other point is, medicine is NOT just about USMLEs, which by the way FLINDERS students fail at the rate of about 95%.

Hm, aside from the rest of your post which was, incidentally, pure, meaningless & slanderous drivel, here's an actual claim that can be tested. Wait, I know more than 5% of Flinders' N. American students from last year, and they all passed the USMLE. Must be the 1 student who did, eh USMedStudent?

I dare any Australian med schools to release the RATE of their students passing/failing those exams.

I thought you knew the running average, at 5%? I mean, to know the 95% who failed, I guess you must be an embittered Tony Edwards or maybe dean Wing leaking scores, right?

Open mouth. Insert foot. Talk drivel. I know it's hard to seem convincing while trying not to supply verifyable statements (since you don't know the first thing about the schools you're denigrating), but do try again.

 

[pitman]

Try a simple google search:
"medical residents flinders"

..these are just some of the many publicly announced by the US residency programmes. Pretty impressive given the small cohorts (since only 1990!) of grad students coming out of Flinders.

*** correction after initial post: "since only 2000!" ***

 

[Winged Scapula]

Try a simple google search:
"medical residents flinders"

..these are just some of the many publicly announced by the US residency programmes. Pretty impressive given the small cohorts (since only 1990!) of grad students coming out of Flinders.

1990 might be a tad generous since the GEMP at Flinders didn't graduate its first class until 1999.

At any rate, those listings are only but a smattering - I know 8 others from my class just off the top of my head.

 

[pitman]

Sorry, I was actually thinking 2000 when i somehow wrote 1990, since I knew the grad programme was the first and started I think '96, just after i first started looking into medical schools. I was also assuming first grads would place the following calendar year, but i could still be off by a year

But I'm glad you're here Kimberli -- if i'm not mistaken, your class probably had something like 15-20 int'l students, tops? And not all would have applied for US res? And you know at least 9 who did US res? By my calculations, that's a bit better than 5% pass rate

I'd actually call bold assertions of 95% failure rate not only absurdly far off, but a big fat lie, but I'll leave others to make their own inferences.

 

[Winged Scapula]

Sorry, I was actually thinking 2000 when i somehow wrote 1990, since I knew the grad programme was the first and started I think '96, just after i first started looking into medical schools. I was also assuming first grads would place the following calendar year, but i could still be off by a year

But I'm glad you're here Kimberli -- if i'm not mistaken, your class probably had something like 15-20 int'l students, tops? And not all would have applied for US res? And you know at least 9 who did US res? By my calculations, that's a bit better than 5% pass rate

I'd actually call bold assertions of 95% failure rate not only absurdly far off, but a big fat lie, but I'll leave others to make their own inferences.

You're right - the first class would have started residency in 2000.

I believe we had at around 18 North Americans, 5 or 6 of which were Canucks. I know of 2 people who didn't pass Step 1 on the first try and some of the Canadians and Aussies took it as well (ie, the resident doing Derm is a Canadian). I haven't heard whether one who failed it first go retook it and haven't any info as to whether or not he's in a US residency. One of them did pass on 2nd try and is doing a US residency. You're right - not all of the US students did a US residency and I have lost touch with several; although a couple who stayed for internship and RMO year or who took time off after school are now in US residencies. I do not know what the pass rate is now, but at the time I was there it was around 94-95%: same as US schools.

Don't be too put off by USMedStudent's assertions - please read his old posts for further insight.