Australian Medical Schools offering Graduate Entry

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Hi, I was wondering if there are any Cdns/Americans in Australia doing a combined degree and whether it is even possible for international students. I'm thinking of MBBS/MPH. If you guys have any info, that would be great.
Thanks

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to traveller4ever,

As a former med student in Aus, let me give you some advice if I may:
a. As a general rule, you should exhaust ALL your possible chances in the US first before attempting to go abroad for med edu, ESPECIALLY if you want to go to Aus. Why?
b. Aus has become extremely racist, anti-American, anti-Asian, in the past few years, ESPECIALLY after the 9/11 and the recent Bali attacks. Aus mentality is they want to be left alone in their beautiful peaceful country. They look at you very skeptically, if not suspiciously. For example, Flinders now doesn't accept any more, with few exceptions, US students. Why?
c. There's been lawsuits against that school practically every year by US students since it launched the 4-yr program in 1996. Last year it settled 2 lawsuits with US students. Now it is being sued by at least another 1. The problems now are being investigated by the US Dept of Edu. Many current students at Flinders are talking about launching a class-action lawsuit. Why?
d. Most if not all Flinders instructors don't like foreign students, b/c since 1996 they've lost their former supreme status and are now constantly challenged in class, exams, due to their very limited knowledge. If you come ask them about USMLE materials, chances are they don't know. After that they may hate you for life. One nephrology consultant didn't even know post-strep glomerulonephritis belonged to type 3 hypersensitivity.
e. Exams are given very sparingly, at most twice a year, and are in essay types. There are also patient examination exams since year 1. Now, for essays, if some faculty members don't like you, they can fail you no matter what you write, and you have only one other chance to retake the exams, where they may fail you again, maybe b/c you write too well, too advanced, for them to understand. For p/t exams, again, if they and/or the patients don't like you, you're finished. You repeat the year. Remember, your p/t may be someone from the rural Aus where she hasn't seen a non-Oz in her entire life. All your p/t will have very thick, local, accents. They don't understand you and you don't understand them easily. Some years, Flindeers failed ALL international Asian students, some American White students, and none of its own Aus students. Those failed students had to retake the exams, many were failed again, and thus the year, for the same reason: anti-foreign, discriminatory.

Now you know why Flinders has been sued every year, and has decided enough is enough, now they don't take any more US students. The admissions people are nice and sincerely want you there, b/c you pay their salary, but they can't change the culture and they can't control the behavior of all faculty members. In that subjective system, it only takes ONE faculty member to make your life a living hell.

Remember, Aus is the only country in the world that allows an anti-foreigner Party (the ONE NATION) to operate. Racial discrimination is allowed, if not encouraged, even at the national level. That party has about 10-20% of the votes, so among the 100 faculty members you may come into contact, 10-20 of them statistically may vote for the ONE NATION, while it takes only 1 of them to destroy your career.
 
I'm a visible minority Canadian at UQ and have had the opportunity to travel through a lot of the country. I can't speak for specific events that may have occurred in Adelaide, but I haven't once encountered any instance of racism or anti-North American bias (nor have the three Americans), from faculty, school admissions, hospital staff or patients.
USMedStudent's comments seem very arrogant and self-important, the Aussies speak with an Aussie accent, how dare they! You should have better researched the school before you chose it. OSCE's from first year are the norm, in fact, I think it has helped us get integrated into the hospital system faster.
Regarding One Nation, come on! Like we don't have stupid fringe groups like that back in North America! I think you're comments are way over the top.
 
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To the Pill Counter,

All I can say to you is, good luck!

I was just as naive as you during my first, second year in Aus.

Aus schools don't normally crack you down during your first, second year. Not yet, b/c then you can transfer away and they'll lose your future tuition. The Exam Board, the Curriculum Committee may veto the faculty's recommendation that some students be made to repeat the year. The exams results were rigged to favor Aboriginal people, and dis-favor Americans, Malaysians, Indonesians, etc. They routinely did it at Flinders when I was there. Not that I personally had problems, b/c I did know how to kiss certain asses just to get the hell out, but I saw too many of my friends did. That's why no Flinders US alumni that I know of would care to keep in touch with the school after they graduate. Few even care to attend the graduation ceremony.

Remember, they didn't take you b/c they liked you. They did b/c they were on financial respirator and you came to give them more financial oxygen to breathe. Now, not all faculty members would like that. They are resentful of American money, power, attitude. It only takes ONE of them to send you to the lawyers, who won't be your best friends but your ONLY friends if such things happen.

Just ask Flinders admissions people how many appeals, lawsuits, it has had in the last few years. Sydney, Melbourne, QL are not doing any better. Just ask around and do yourself a favor, don't be so blissful in your unknowing.
 
thanks for your concerns USMedstudent.
It did shed some light that I had no idea of all the lawsuits filed against Flinders.

I am also applying to many US and Ontario (Canada) schools; I am Canadian. I just thought it would be great to experience medical school somewhere else, such as Australia (where I also have family). I guess maybe your experiences have tainted your view of Australia and I am saddened by that.
I guess I should do some more research in that area.
BTW, I am curious as to where your US friends went after Flinders? or what path you took yourself?
Thanks for your concerns.
 
To traveller4ever,

I can't tell you what path I took b/c they may trace me out and who knows what they may do to me.

I saw what happened to my friends at Flinders and I did, still do, feel sorry for them. They worked very hard all their life through college, MCAT; they borrowed $30,000 a year to go to Flinders only to be unfairly failed by some faculty members that envied their very American self-assured attitude, that were jealous of their money, car, popularity; were ashamed that my friends knew more about medicine than them and many Aus consultants who couldn't tell type I, II, III, IV hypersensitivities apart.

On p/t history-taking exams, for example, you have 5 mins to take history from a p/t. Many of them don't speak English the way we do, maybe they are illiterate, or just live in the bush (outback) thousands of miles away from civilization and therefore just can't communicate with you. All have their own specific, thick British, Scotish, Irish, Aus, or a mixture of those, accents which you may not understand. Then, your p/t will give you from 0 to 6, and the consultant gives you from 0 to 14. The passing grade could be 12-18 over 20. You don't know the passing grade for each station. The school rigs it AFTER all the results are turned in, NOT before, so even if you score 17.9/ 20 you can still fail. Now, if some p/t gives you 1 out of 5, you'll get at most 15/20, and that is almost a sure fail even if you get 14/14 from the consultant which is impossible. Most exams at Flinders are not even about medicine. but about attitude, p/t interaction, but how can you interact with those that don't want to interact with you, or those that do but just can't?

Listen, if someone scorse 24 on MCAT, that person knows better than most Aus med consultants in everything from physics to chemistry, from math to biology. When was the last time an Aus won the Nobel Prize? Science, especially medical science, is very primitive there. Few people read Robbins in Aus. No Aus I knew understood it, including even the most "prominent" consultants I talked to. Many med students there go to school till noon, then go home to work or babysit their kids for rest of the day, then study about 2 hrs each day and still pass every exam. In that environment, you may try to lie low, but sooner or later you'll stand out as a smart ass and that would cause you trouble.

Out of 10 American graduates from that school, I would say:
a. 2 got their degree in 4 years and passed all 4 ECFMG-required exams by the time they graduated.
b. 4 got their degree in 4 years but didn't pass all 4 ECFMG-required exams by the time they graduated.
c. 1 got their degree in 5-6 years but did pass all 4 ECFMG-required exams by the time they graduated.
d. 3 got their degree in 5-6 years but didn't pass all 4 ECFMG-required exams by the time they graduated.

So, I think only 20% got their plan worked out. 40% had to stay out at least a year to study and take the USMLEs, CSA. 30% already repeated a year, but when they graduated they still had to stay out for yet at least another year to study for the USMLEs, CSA. At best, 2 could apply for residency after 4 years, 5 could do so after 5-6 years, and 3 could do so after 6-7 years.

That's a dismal record, at best. But don't worry, Flinders is under investigation by the US Dept of Edu already, so to play safe it already froze all recruiting efforts in the US and Canada, except some very rare exceptions (e.g. their own citizens studying college in North America). Other Aus med schools have similar, or even worse problems from what I heard.
 
USmedstudent:
Well, ur comments have raised some serious thinking for myself. I guess when I go to the Adcom at u of Sydney later this month, I will definitely have some questions to ask! or i'll somehow ask politely:)

I feel terrible that you feel so awful about it all. I'm glad it looks like everything went alright for yourself in the end. And I'm glad you let the rest of us know of the situation out there. Thanks:)
 
USMedStudent

:mad:

How dare you say those things!!! Im offended!!!

You sound just like the typical arrogant loud-mouth Amercian who only thinks of themselves!

How the hell can you say that Australia is more racist than Amercia??...come on. A country that pulls over Black men for walking the streets at night!

Maybe....just maybe not everyone can understand your yank english, because we are a MULTICULTURAL society....or haven't you ever heard of that :mad: Ive heard that Amercian Doc are encouraged to learn Spanish because of Hispanics.

You sounded like you were offended that a Rural Australian had never seen a foreigner before. Who the f**k do you think you are?

If you are so smart..and know so much....why didn't you get into US med school? About AU med school not letting in many US students.....like your US schools ever let Aussies in!. Oh and geezzz heaven forbid that we haven't heard about your USMLE exams. Maybe thats because we don't give a ****.

Also that fact that you are talking about Flinders....which is in South Australia...have you even visited the rest of the country?

If you don't like it....piss off
Don't inflict your hated views on others

It is people like you that make the world as f**ked up as it is :(

To Traveller4ever

Please don't listen to USMedStudent. You'll love it here, just talk to Pill counter and Leorl. True that Australia does want to remain safe, that we love our country and want to protect it. USMedStudent views are one sided and he obviously has some resentment towards not being selected into US schools.

Jenni - a proud Australian

20th October 2002 - National day of mourning for the victims of the Bali blast.
 
I forgot to mention USMedStudent,

The reason Aboriginals get special consideration is because they are severely disadvantaged with regard to both education and social structure.

This is no different to your minority (African-American, Hispanic etc) scholarships.

Jenni
 
I can understand your anger Jenni, but don't let it bother you. I take strong opinions posted by new members with a grain of salt.
I would like to hear from Kim Cox, Crepitus and Treesap, people who have been on this board for a while and what their views are. USMedStudent: you have no credibility, at least, not yet.
 
Overall, I learned absolutely nothing, zero, about medicine in Aus. My 4-yrs in Aus were a vacation. Aus consultants had nothing to teach me even if they had wanted. However they did teach me how racism, prejudice, are formalized from the lowest to highest levels in a society.

Prejudice is in all of us, but at least in the US and other civilized countries there are LAWS that prevent people from expressing it. However it is only in Aus that it is allowed to express, carry on with concrete actions. Jenni, don't you know how inhumane, how barbaric, the Refugee Detention Center in Woomera, South Aus, is treating refugees, those that Aus created by invading their countries? It's just not the way the civilized world works. Not now, not here. I can cite numerous incidents in Aus newspapers that many Aus politicians made very racist, sexist remarks that if any US politicians said the same, their career would be over the next day.

There're ethnic, racial quotas in all US med school ADMISSIONS policies, but NOT in GRADUATING ones. US schools just don't accept more than a pre-set number of student from certain races, ethnics, because if they do, over 75% of future doctors would be Asian and that won't be good for social harmony. However, once a student's been in school, he/she is treated fairly and equally as everyone else, because he/she is an integral member of the school community.

In Aus, however, med schools are only interested in MONEY that US students pay, and have no regards of their education, future career, graduation. They allow racism to proliferate in classrooms, wards, exam rooms, Exam Boards meetings where they rig results. They know if graded fairly, all US students would easily pass, and that may send the message that their education standard is too low--which I think is abysmally low by the way. It'd be like a competition where everyone gets the gold medal. So they pre-set a number that each year they just have to fail some US students to make their school looks "tough and rigorous." How? They give exams that require essay-typed answers which they can easily give any points they want, from 0 to whatever, without having to explain why.

Some consultants gave me the questions before the exams, because I cared to come to their office often, pretending I was dumb. They liked that, that boosted up their inferiority complex toward US students. Aus radio, TV, newspapers, magazines, are all about US, done, made, in the US. Aus Prime Minister Mr. Howard would trade his right arm for a meeting with Prez Bush. The opposition leader branded him as "arse-licking the Americans" outright, one Mr. Howard never disputed. Many consultants can be patriotic, they resent that, and they take it out on whom, if not people on whom they have absolute power over?

In many papers I wrote, I got, say, 8 out of 10 on certain questions while other smarter more independent-minded friends of mine wrote Robbins-typed answers and got 2 out of 10. When they knew they failed, they tried to get their papers to question why, but the school refused to let them see their own papers, until many weeks, months, later when things cooled down and everyone already went home. When they finally got their papers, so what, what could they say, because there were no markings on the papers, just "2" at the end. There were no criteria on how a paper should be graded, what the students should write to get the grades, etc. All were subjective like Figure Skating at the Olympics, widely opened for the virus of prejudice to infect, invade, break loose in Aus society.

About the OSCE exams, I couldn't care less if the p/t was Aboriginal or illiterate or whatever, but I cared because HE or SHE would determine my progress, my career, my life. It's profusely stupid that the school let the p/t to give marks to students, up to 30% (0 to 6 out of 20), and the consultant gives the rest 70%. Again, there were no criteria, no write-up reports, so a student could be as good as God and may still fail the OSCE.

Many people choose to be blissful in their ignorance. That's good for me, less competitors for my future jobs.
 
Hey USMedStudent,
I wanted to send you a private message with some questions. But, you haven't enable private messaging for yourself. Can you do so from the User CP link on top? If not then I'll post my questions here.....
 
To be honest, the postings of that sad, bitter, twisted, arrogant, ignorant, and quite frankly paranoid and delusional poster are hardly worth dignifying with a response, but alas, I couldn't let his/her sad rants go uncorrected.

1. To be quite honest, any racism in Australia pales into complete insignificance compared to anywhere else in the world. I've lived, studied and travelled through pretty much most of the world, and I've lived in Australia most of my life, and I can objectively and confidently say that Australia would have to be the most tolerant and least racist place in the world. No other country has absorbed more people from more racial and ethnic backgrounds over such a short period of time (especially post WWII) with so few problems. When was the last time you saw L.A.-style Rodney King riots in Australia? Never! When was the last time you had a self-confessed KKK High Wizard running for Federal Parliament like in the U.S.? (can't remember his first name, but his surname was Duke)? How can you say Australia is racist against Asians? Behind New Zealanders and Brits they are the biggest immigrant group, and there is absolutely no racial quotas or discrimination in the immigration process. As for being racist against Americans, I must strongly disagree. Have you any idea how many Australians sent their condolences to the U.S. or signed condolence books at U.S. consulates after September 11? Australians are not racist against Americans, they just don't like Americans like USMedStudent seems to be - an arrogant, ignorant, neo-Imperialist *****, pumped up with so much self-importance and belief that the whole world exists just to serve his/her fast-food overfed derriere! One of the classic quotes that shows this beautifully is his/her shock and disgust that "All your p/t will have very thick, local, accents. They don't understand you and you don't understand them easily." Geez, horror of horrors, you'd think that those damned "Ossies" could at least make an effort to speak like an American!! Please, on behalf of all Aussies, please let me apologise for not submitting total American cultural hegemony. I'll make sure to write a letter to my local member requesting American pronounciation be introduced from Kindergarten to High School curricula! To be frank you are obviously very blinkered and not a very intelligent, adaptable, or socially adept person, because I have yet to meet one American that has had any even remotely significant troubles understanding Aussies. God help you if you had to go to Scotland, Ireland or parts of England (Yorkshire or Sunderland spring to mind for starters!)

2. "Aus mentality is they want to be left alone in their beautiful peaceful country." Oh geez, once again, I must apologise on behalf of my countrymen and women for this horrendous crime against humanity! Fancy wanting such a heinous thing! Once again, I think everyone is increasingly seeing what a sad, ignorant, immature and bitter little individual USMedStudent really is. Sorry, we'd prefer a few more planes smashing into our own equivalent of the World Trade Centre, same race riots, and maybe while you're at it, could you maybe arrange for a few Columbine-style schoolyard massacres and a Washingtonesque sniper for good measure? Thanks.

3. "They look at you very skeptically, if not suspiciously." With an obviously ignorant, arrogant, and neo-Imperialist mental midget such as USMedStudent, it's hardly surprising! For most people with even a semblance of normality and social skills exceeding those of a gnat (i.e. anyone not out of the USMedStudent mould), you will be treated hospitably and with respect, just like anyone else.

4. USMedStudent asks why there are lawsuits against Flinders from US med students. I can hazard a guess that it has a lot to do with the overly litigous and "victim mentality" that sad people like USMedStudent are brought up in, as well as the fact that people like USMedStudent (not all US med students obviously) are used to having "Mommy and Daddy" get them their own way throughout life, and when they find that that doesn't cut it in their non-sheltered private schoool, country-club, ivy-league alma mater world, they resort to the good ol' "sue the bastards" mentality. Would it be that the students are just not good enough to make the grade? Is that what happened to USMedStudent? He/she seems very consumed by hatred and bitterness. Did he/she get failed by an Aussie consultant? Or did he/she get dumped by an Aussie girlfriend/boyfriend?

5. USMedStudent claims "Most if not all Flinders instructors don't like foreign students". If they're all conceited, ignorant, arrogant, know-it-all, twits like USMedStudent, it hardly comes as a surprise.

6. USMedStudent also is horrified if the Flinders consultants "don't know about USMLE materials". Once again, I'll have to apologise on behalf of my fellow countrymen and women for not just providing a discounted world-class medical education tailored specifically to students who want to just nick off back to the U.S. after graduation and do the USMLE. I mean, quite obviously, with the U.S. being the world superpower that it is, we should just submit wholeheartedly to its cultural and economic neo-Imperialism and do all in our power to just make Australian universities like South Seas U.S. colleges! Once again, just for you USMedStudent, I'll raise this one with my local member. But before I do that, I might just remind you, that the vast majority of students at Flinders don't and never will give a rats backside about the USMLE.

7. "Remember, your p/t may be someone from the rural Aus where she hasn't seen a non-Oz in her entire life." It may come as news to USMedStudent, but not everyone in the world gets sent on "Mommy and Daddy"-funded bi-annual trips to exotic locations. Geez, fancy those "Ossie" rural dwellers having the gall to think about dealing with the worst drought in a hundred years, depressed commodity prices, and putting the next meal on the table for their family! They should be more like USMedStudent and get "Mommy and Daddy" to send them to a two-month all expensed paid language camp in Tuscany! Once again, your arrogance, ignorance and blindingly obvious neo-Imperialist world-view is to be honest quite frightening. To think that a troglodyte such as yourself is even close to obtaining a medical degree (very different from actually being a doctor) is quite frankly enough to make one wake in the dead of night in a cold sweat!

8. "In that subjective system, it only takes ONE faculty member to make your life a living hell." Warning lights are flashing big time here! Once again, methinks there is a strong likelihood that our old friend USMedStudent had a personality clash (not surprising - I think even the most easy-going and tolerant person would have trouble not finding USMedStudent's personality and attitudes attractive).
 
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9. USMedStudent claims: "Remember, Aus is the only country in the world that allows an anti-foreigner Party (the ONE NATION) to operate. Racial discrimination is allowed, if not encouraged, even at the national level. That party has about 10-20% of the votes, so among the 100 faculty members you may come into contact, 10-20 of them statistically may vote for the ONE NATION, while it takes only 1 of them to destroy your career." Oh, I love it. USMedStudent must be right into self-mutilation (maybe he can raise this with the psychiatrist/counsellor when he sees them about his numerous other personal issues), because he/she is shooting himself/herself in BOTH feet - repeatedly. United States - KKK High Wizards running for federal parliament, and receiving significant support. UK - ever heard of the British National Party? Netherlands - ever heard of a party leader called Pim Fortuyn? Maybe if you started reading something aside from your CNN McNews you might! New Zealand - ever heard of Winston Peters? He's only part of the ruling coalition government! Austria - Jorg Haider? Denmark? Norway? And don't even get me started on Asian countries "racial policies". Tried even buying some land as a non-Japanese in Japan recently? What about China? Your ignorance and provincial mindset is astonishing USMedStudent! Have you ever heard of that Australian Commonwealth legislative instrument called the "Racial Discrimination Act" USMedStudent? www.austlii.edu.au - you'll be able to find it on the website resolved to at this link. It expressly prohibits any form of racial discrimination. It is also mirrored in State and Territory legislation. Once again, your claims are farcically baseless and ignorant.

10. USMedStudent continues his bittter rant by talking of his fellow US med student friends (hard to believe I know!) by saying "...they borrowed $30,000 a year to go to Flinders only to be unfairly failed by some faculty members that envied their very American self-assured attitude, that were jealous of their money, car, popularity; were ashamed that my friends knew more about medicine than them and many Aus consultants who couldn't tell type I, II, III, IV hypersensitivities apart." Mate, to be 100% honest with you, I don't know any Australian (or anyone else for that matter that "envies" the "very American self-assure attitude". If it's anything like the attitude you seem to have, then we prefer to describe it as "being an arrogant, conceited, cocky, know-it-all w*nker"! I know if I were some experienced and highly-skilled consultant, and I were faced with some pimply-faced early-twenties spoilt brat trying to tell me that I and "my friends knew more about medicine than them and many Aus consultants", I wouldn't exactly be giving you an easy time. You really are quite a sad little individual, with some serious personal issues USMedStudent!

11. "Many of them don't speak English the way we do, maybe they are illiterate, or just live in the bush (outback) thousands of miles away from civilization and therefore just can't communicate with you." Did you even read your post back to yourself before posting USMedStudent? USMedStudent's arrogance is really quite astonishing! For your information, the literacy rate (as measured in accordance with accepted international standards) 99%, with the 1% consisting of primarily Aboriginals in remote areas. Australia ranked the highest of English-speaking countries in a recent OECD report on functional literacy. The U.S. wasn't even in the top ten. Once again, I apologise for "not speaking English the way you do"! To be honest, I'm extremely surprised that you lasted 4 days in Australia, let alone 4 years with your atrocious attitude!
12. USMedStudent then quips: "but how can you interact with those that don't want to interact with you, or those that do but just can't?" Once again, I think it's clear for all to see, that there quite obviously is a not insignificant deficit in USMedStudent's social skills.

13. And USMedStudent continues with his/her ignorance-induced self mutilation with: "When was the last time an Aus won the Nobel Prize? Science, especially medical science, is very primitive there." A quick search of the internet indicates that in 1996 (there might be more recent ones, but that was the first that came up), an AUSTRALIAN, by the name of Professor Peter Doherty of the Australian Academy of Science won Australia's EIGHT Nobel Laureate in SCIENCE. Not bad for a country of less than 20 million people. The U.S. would have to win 120 Nobel Laureates in science to even equal Australia on a per-capita basis. Aspro, atomic absorption spectrophotometer, bionic ear, frozen embryo babies (Queen Victoria Medical Centre, Melbourne), oral vaccine for bronchitis (University of Newcastle), two-minute AIDS test (Uni of Melbourne), controlled-release oral morphine capsules, multi-focal contact lens, non-invasive TB test, medical application of Penicillin (Howard Florey), 1960 Nobel laureate for research into acquired immunological tolerance (Sir Frank MacFarlane Burnett) are just a very small fraction of the medicine/science-related inventions, innovations, or achievements of Australia. Not bad for for such a "primitive" place!

In short, I wouldn't wipe my backside with the misleading, ignorant and almost farcical drivel that USMedStudent has posted. I can assure you with absolute confidence that you'll not only be assured of a world-class medical education in Australia, but you'll have a great time. Aussies laugh at themselves, and like people who can do the same. A lot of USMedStudent's problems I'm afraid are likely to stem from his/her inability to do just that!
:rolleyes:
 
Dear oh dear USMedStudent - you are a sad and ignorant little individual aren't you.

1. Your "vacation" obviously was brought to a violent and unpleasant end, when it became obvious that "Mommy and Daddy" weren't going to be able to buy you an real education. Face it, you weren't good enough, and I hazard a guess that you never will me.

2. Those "laws" which you talk about are highly developed in Australia. Do a search on "Racial Discrimination Act" at www.austlii.edu.au for a start. Your ignorance is astounding. Lecturing Australians on prejudice and racism - that's a bit rich coming from an American!

3. Yes, the Woomera Detention Centre is sooooooooo barbaric. I mean the kids get sent to school every day, they have computers rooms, better medical care than the vast majority of Australians, religiously-sensitive food provided (eg: halal food), Satellite subscription television (with foreign language programmes), tax-payer funded legal aid, recreation equipment, the list goes on and on! Once again, please do everyone a favour (including yourself) and don't broadcast you ignorance so blatantly! While you're at it, please cite all these comments made by politicians.


4. Thank God that Australia doesn't require the political correctness gone made quota systems that have infected U.S. society. The fact that you need such quotas clearly reflects the prejudice and racism that exists in U.S. society!

5. Where's your evidence of "rigging" of grades? Maybe you're just having trouble accepting that even though "Mommy and Daddy" had to buy you a top-quality Australian medical education (because you weren't smart enough to get accepted in the U.S., so your parents were forced to BUY you a place in Oz!), you just couldn't cut it. I doubt you ever will.

6. There are a lot of things that Australians have, but an inferiority complex to Americans - puuuuuuuuuuulease! Give me a break! I hate to break the news to you, but Australians increasingly view the "Land of the Free, Home of the Brave" with a shake of the head, roll of the eyes, and even a sense of pity for its inhabitants.

In short, I suggest you just accept the fact that you're obviously a socially-inept, psychologically troubled individual who just couldn't, and probably never will "really make the grade". I think the sooner you do this, the better for everyone, including your sad and sorry self.

Overall, I learned absolutely nothing, zero, about medicine in Aus. My 4-yrs in Aus were a vacation. Aus consultants had nothing to teach me even if they had wanted. However they did teach me how racism, prejudice, are formalized from the lowest to highest levels in a society.

Prejudice is in all of us, but at least in the US and other civilized countries there are LAWS that prevent people from expressing it. However it is only in Aus that it is allowed to express, carry on with concrete actions. Jenni, don't you know how inhumane, how barbaric, the Refugee Detention Center in Woomera, South Aus, is treating refugees, those that Aus created by invading their countries? It's just not the way the civilized world works. Not now, not here. I can cite numerous incidents in Aus newspapers that many Aus politicians made very racist, sexist remarks that if any US politicians said the same, their career would be over the next day.

There're ethnic, racial quotas in all US med school ADMISSIONS policies, but NOT in GRADUATING ones. US schools just don't accept more than a pre-set number of student from certain races, ethnics, because if they do, over 75% of future doctors would be Asian and that won't be good for social harmony. However, once a student's been in school, he/she is treated fairly and equally as everyone else, because he/she is an integral member of the school community.

In Aus, however, med schools are only interested in MONEY that US students pay, and have no regards of their education, future career, graduation. They allow racism to proliferate in classrooms, wards, exam rooms, Exam Boards meetings where they rig results. They know if graded fairly, all US students would easily pass, and that may send the message that their education standard is too low--which I think is abysmally low by the way. It'd be like a competition where everyone gets the gold medal. So they pre-set a number that each year they just have to fail some US students to make their school looks "tough and rigorous." How? They give exams that require essay-typed answers which they can easily give any points they want, from 0 to whatever, without having to explain why.

Some consultants gave me the questions before the exams, because I cared to come to their office often, pretending I was dumb. They liked that, that boosted up their inferiority complex toward US students. Aus radio, TV, newspapers, magazines, are all about US, done, made, in the US. Aus Prime Minister Mr. Howard would trade his right arm for a meeting with Prez Bush. The opposition leader branded him as "arse-licking the Americans" outright, one Mr. Howard never disputed. Many consultants can be patriotic, they resent that, and they take it out on whom, if not people on whom they have absolute power over?

In many papers I wrote, I got, say, 8 out of 10 on certain questions while other smarter more independent-minded friends of mine wrote Robbins-typed answers and got 2 out of 10. When they knew they failed, they tried to get their papers to question why, but the school refused to let them see their own papers, until many weeks, months, later when things cooled down and everyone already went home. When they finally got their papers, so what, what could they say, because there were no markings on the papers, just "2" at the end. There were no criteria on how a paper should be graded, what the students should write to get the grades, etc. All were subjective like Figure Skating at the Olympics, widely opened for the virus of prejudice to infect, invade, break loose in Aus society.

About the OSCE exams, I couldn't care less if the p/t was Aboriginal or illiterate or whatever, but I cared because HE or SHE would determine my progress, my career, my life. It's profusely stupid that the school let the p/t to give marks to students, up to 30% (0 to 6 out of 20), and the consultant gives the rest 70%. Again, there were no criteria, no write-up reports, so a student could be as good as God and may still fail the OSCE.

Many people choose to be blissful in their ignorance. That's good for me, less competitors for my future jobs.
 
Dapo

Thankyou :laugh:

Lets just hope we don't have to hear from this d**khead again.

Jenni :)
 
Cheers Dapo, I've got finals here at UQ next week and didn't have the energy.
 
Despite what you read on the news, US is one of the most accepting countries in the world. In the US, race is at the front page of news all the times because quite simply you will be hard pressed to find another country where you see so many poeple of different colors on the street!!!!! And in order to understand US well, you will have to live here to truly appreciate what blacks and other minorities have gone through in the past and you will see that US has surprisingly come a long way. Americans are still constantly dealing with the issue of race out in the open, and this is an immensely better situation than places where racism is not talked about but yet people are influenced by it all the time without being aware of it. That would be bad....

I am sure the consultants in Australia are excellent clinicians. I think that USmedstudents were pissed off @ USMLE step 1 which is purely basic science (it does not test you on diagnosis or treatment per se, but test you on the molecular stuff such as cell membrane of the gram -ve bacteria, calcium channel @ neuromuscular junction, etc. At times, they even tell you the diagnosis of the pt in the question but yet the last sentence of the question asks you something on the molecular level). Therefore, it is not surprising if clinicians don't know much about the answers to USMLE step 1 questions because knowing or not knowing the answers will not influence patient care strategy at all
!!!! People in the US forget a lot about USMLE step 1 material after they pass it anyway. If I ask my attendings in the US, they won't know the answers unless they look them up. And unless you do research, nobody will remember Kreb's cycle.

I would probably say that USmedstudent is just very bitter about his or her experience in Australia. I doubt he or she is psychotic :) since the anonymous nature of internet does make person more bold than usual. However, I am still wondering if all the horror stories he mentioned at least had some truth to it. I did study aboard in England for a year during college and, trust me, it was a way for British college to make $$$ off American visiting students. Nevertheless, i was treated by the faculty as welcome guests and I enjoyed my time there. If that wasn't the case, I would probably be very pissed off too! :D

Lastly, US as a nation does have lots of money. But they have earned it for the most part. Americans work harder than Europeans by far (don't know much about Australians' work schedule). And in general, Americans (or American kids) do not take that much vacation. On the other hand, when I backpacked across Europe, I saw many aussie kids who have been on the road for 1/2 year already. I am still wondering where the money came from for those kids! Also Americans aren't really that bright but that nation does take the brightest away from other countries. It is not surprising why others detect some arrogance from America as a nation.
 
To PillCounter - no worries. Normally wouldn't worry about someone of USMedStudent's obvious intellectual insignificance, but thought his rubbish and lies couldn't go unchecked.

Re the USMLE - the arrogance of USMedStudent to think that the consultants should be wholly familiar with every little detail of the USMLE curriculum is what I think is the most galling. Probably half of the consultants he is so keen to slate, have more medical knowledge and expertise than he/she could ever hope to have! That might be what is making him/her so bitter - I suggest he just accepts the fact.

Yep, Americans work very hard, and good on them. They have an ethos of rewarding and honouring those who are successful, and this is to be admired. But I think that particularly in the last 10 or 20 years, this almost workaholic attitude has quite tragic results for U.S. society (don't worry, this has also become an issue in Australia). We should ask ourselves why the Europeans work less, but still seem to enjoy a good standard of living. Perhaps they work smarter, not harder, or perhaps they are just happy without the excesses and "wants" rather than "needs" that Americans, and to a lesser extent Australians feel they have to strive for.

Just a comment re "Aussie kids" travelling through Europe (even though this is a medical forum and we probably should try to stick to the topic) - I'll give you a tip where the money came from - go and look at how many Aussies there are with working holiday visas, working their backsides off in London or the UK in general. There I think you will find your answer.

Hast lluego.

Dapo

P.S. May our thoughts be with all the Bali bombing victims and their families on this national day of mourning, 20th October. Try to wear a wattle sprig or other native flower if you can.
 
Please do not take USMedStudent's anecdotal stories as representative of all US student's experiences at Flinders University. I am finishing up year 1 and found it to be a good school. There are a couple lawsuits mainly to do with Fin Aid matters and not passing classes. If you do not pass a year, you cannot get Stafford loans for the following year. Show me a US med school without pending lawsuits. The US Dept of Educ "investigating" Flinders is patently false. Flinders, along with every other institution in the world that has Stafford eligiblity, is under constant review. Professors not knowing USMLE material is also false. Basic science is basic science and yes, professors here know what a type III hypersensitivity reaction is. USMedStudent is obviously not a native english speaker and maybe the problem lies with that, as with many non native english speaking students. Anyway, Flinders still recruits and accepts North American students, along with Asian, European and Aussie students. It is a great school , Adelaide is a wonderful place to live, and the Aussies are a good bunch.
 
Hey folks, I didn't want to get this far. It doesn't concern me. There are things you learn only by time-worn real life experience. To MD1088, you sound just like me a few years ago. I was among the first few US students at Flinders. I was naive, utterly blissful. I thought it would be like that until graduation. But something happened to many good friends of mine, one is now STILL at Flinders. He was the guy everyone went to ask questions in the ward. But he was failed and was not given the chance to do the sup exam. Everyone knew he was backstabbed by the Flinders Exam Board, and/or some consultants, because he was too good. He caused resentment in the wards. His peers trusted his knowledge than they did to Flinders consultants. Now, you can choose to believe me, or not, I don't care. Things like that would never happen in a US med school. Over here, things like personality conflicts are not factors to fail a student the whole year. Here even if a faculty member or even the Dean or President of the university intensely dislikes a student, he or she can't fail him, but in Aus any consultant can. That's the main difference between the 2 systems, and is the gist of ALL my replies.

About doctors not knowing many basic sciences facts, that's everywhere in the wards, but should not be in the classroom. TEACHING faculties must know those facts, especially those in their specialty, more than family docs. If they don't know then they can't teach, right? Yeah right, at Flinders they just don't know. They don't even read Robbins there. In fact that book is not even required, and not even Rubin. Flinders students therefore know less than 10% of what any US med student knows in pathology, and in fact in all areas of medicine. I can say that, because 94% US students pass the USMLE-1 on first try, after year 2, but at most only 20% Flinders US students pass it before graduation. The rest either took and failed, or haven't taken it. So they miss the March match, and therefore must sit out for at least 1.5 year, until the following June. To MD1088, you can check this yourself. At most five year-4 Flinders US students (this is alread an abnormaly good year, in other years there were 1-3) have passed the USMLE-1 so far, and none of them has passed all 4 ECFMG-required exams for the upcoming Match. You know what they are doing? They are applying for residency at Queen Elizabeth hospital (a substandard one in South Aus), a safety net for US / Canadian students that don't have anywhere to go after graduation.

This is my last visit to this forum. Talking about these things leaves bad taste in my mouth, and I don't have to. I've already moved on, and Aus experiences are far and gone in my memories. I had wonderful Aus friends there, in fact I was involved with a few Aus women. We travelled to Brisbane, Sydney, Perth. We had fun, we had joy in the sun, on the beach. The weather was heavenly, the people were good, the admissions people were fantastic (Dr. Teubner and Dr. McDowell), but it was only the year 2-3 faculty members that caused the problems. I didn't care if they couldn't teach because I could learn on my own, but when they failed US students unfairly I was furious. Over the years, ALL students that failed OSCE were international students, especially US ones. MD1088, you can check that if you don't believe me. In 1996 they were on verge of bankruptcy when they started taking US students, not out of anything but needs to make money, to survive. That dependency on US students angered a lot of faculty members who were just very patriotic, very conservative, very Australian, maybe somewhat egoistic. They were unhappy, to say the least, so they treated US students with contempt, skepticism, if not persecution. They didn't want us, didn't welcome us. In the wards, they simply paid less attention to us, didn't volunteer to teach us until and unless we asked. When we made mistakes they derided us, made us look bad and stupid in front of the nurses and other students. During OSCE exams they had ways to make us feel uncomfortable, then they had ways to mark us down and fail us as they wished, because there were no write-up hard copies as evidence. No matter what we did in that OSCE room, they could still fail us, and every year they did by the half dozen.

My conclusion is, Flinders is a good LOCAL school, that serves good purpose to the local people. However it is pedagogically, scientifically, culturally, INCAPABLE of teaching highly driven US students, especially someone with sophisticated background in sciences. It knows it too, and it has done itself a favor by reducing dramatically, if not entirely, its recruiting efforts in North America.
 
To xbliss187x,

Sorry I didn't see your post earlier. I don't have the time to reply to all posts on here, and I am sorry I won't have the time to read and reply to your questions. This Flinders issue doesn't concern me, not anymore. There was a bitter divorce between Flinders and US students, but it was passe' now. It takes some Canadians now, I heard, but not US students anymore. Even Flinders may not be there in 5 years anyway. There's been active talks to combine Flinders, Uni Adelaide, Uni South Aus, into 1. In Adelaide there'll be only Uni Adelaide med school. Flinders med school may close for good in a few years. In 1996 it almost did, but was saved when Dr. Teubner proposed the 4-year program, taking US students to bail the school out of financial bankruptcy. If it now closes for good, its faculty members may then move to Canberra to join the new med school there. Some Flinders faculty members have gone to Canberra to help set that up. End of an era.

To Dapo and some others that didn't like my posts, sorry folks, but it's not worth your anger. How Aus treats its non-Oz population, everyone in the world knows, the UN knows. Mary Robinson, the UN High Commissioner for Refugees knows. Oz people are very nice, very sweet, but only to themselves. I don't think they are racist per se; I think they are xenophobic rather. They just want to be left alone to enjoy their beautiful peaceful country. Why not? Nothing wrong with that. Pre-1973 it was the all-white country, all-Brit-descendant country. Post-1973 it took non-Oz people in for the exact same reason that Flinders did: MONEY. Again, nothing wrong with that, no such thing as free lunch anywhere, is there? Problems only occur when it doesn't fulfill its duties, its contracts, to people it has taken in. It doesn't have to play, but if it does it must play it fair, by the rules, or it faces embarrassing UN reports, student lawsuits.

Human rights duties, as agreed in most civilized countries, are that it must treat refugees with humanity, not with guns, barbed wires, and batons. It's funny for me to hear someone saying that Aus gives computer, etc., to refugees. Let me just ask if they want to move to Woomera and live in that 45 C degree center in the desert, surrounded by sand and barbed wires. Try to put a bird in the cage, feed it well, open the door, and see if it chooses to stay in or to fly out to seek food by itself. It's okay howver to detain refugees like that, or worse than that, in Pakistan or Iran, my friends, but not in a civilized country that you claim Aus to be.

Educational duties are that Aus must treat US students fairly, not avenging on their vulnerable souls because some of its faculty members actively dislike them. Aus owns its land (which is still controversial how it got it from the Aboriginal people) and its schools, and so it can legally do whatever it wants with it. That includes it can close its doors to the world and isolate itself. That seems to be the way it is doing, because even if it wants to open its doors, few reaonable people in the world would care to come in to play with the unfair player anymore.

Life goes on, folks. ****, I almost miss my 36-hour shift! Adieu, good luck to you all!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

"Take it easy, it's just life after all."
 
I haven't the time to address all the issues raised here but wanted to comment.

Be forewarned that it has been 2 years since I have been at Flinders so I am not fully informed about the goings-on since then but can speak with authority on the previous 4 years.

First, if it were true that Flinders was not recruiting Americans anymore I would find it illogical to have received an email (from the school) not more than 1 month ago asking if I would be willing to have my picture and some comments placed in an informational booklet about the program.

As for the lawsuits, I can only speak with some knowledge about one. A classmate of mine did poorly on several exams and had to repeat a year and felt persecuted by the faculty. The difference in my experience with this friend? I actually studied with him and saw the type of answers he came up with. Sure they were nearly "'Robbin's textbook perfect." However, unfortunately, they didn't answer the question posed. If you can't answer the question, detailed minutiae about the Histopath of Breast CA, while interesting and even correct, doesn't get you a passing grade. I and other friends who studied with him told him time and time again that he wasn't getting "it" - he ignored us, despite the fact that we passed every exam and are doing US residencies. What happened with the others? I don't know, but I do know that many of the US students focused on memorizing details and didn't see the forest for the trees.

It is true that the Financial Aid office was often incompetent in handling US forms, etc. However, I never was denied funds nor did the arrive late. This is because I saw the mistakes the FAO made and called, wrote, double-checked forms, etc. to make sure they were done right and sent in a timely fashion. You have to be more proactive and take some responsibility. Fair? Maybe not, but if that's the way it is, so be it - I'll fix it.

Who cares that a certain book wasn't required? And why does a "required book" (even if one existed) have to be American-written? Flinders doesn't require any texts - you use whatever tome you care to. Robbins, while considered the classic Path textbook in the US, isn't necessarily the best, nor is it the best choice for everyone. Rather than simply demand that a program/school must be substandard because they don't use this text, why not applaud the fact that they allow students to use whatever works for them? Rubin and Farber was a very popular book when I was there, but yes, it too was not required. Again, no book is REQUIRED...and this fact is no different than MANY other schools which have a suggested list but no required reading list.

Should consultants remember basic science details? Some do and some don't. I really don't expect consultants (or attendings here in the US) to remember a lot about the Kreb's cycle and frankly am often asked by faculty about certain pharm details, biochem etc. proving to me that they don't retain these details if they aren't important to their everyday clinical practice. I will concede that there are some attendings who seem to know everything and remember all the details from medical school on, but I find it more likely that most forget the vast majority of their basic sciences.

I'd also like to challenge the statement that only "20%" of Americans passed the course and the USMLEs in 4 years. This may be true for the current crop of students (about which I have no knowledge) but it is certainly not the truth for past years. It is true that some have stayed in Oz (and one is indeed working at the Queen Liz. Why? Because he fell in love with an Aussie girl and wanted to stay in the country as long as possible. He took the USMLE this year and is applying for the US match - he waited for personal reasons not because he had some problem with Flinders. Matter of fact, this guy was one of the biggest supporters of the school, even when reason suggested he not be.)

American students did fail the OSCE - but I often attributed that to infamiliarity with the nature of oral exams. We just don't take them (nor do we often take essay exams in the US) here. Being able to communicate effectively in such a forum is extremely important given the fact that many specialist Board exams have an oral component. The time pressure in the OSCEs was pretty rough but the vast majority of us passed the exam without trouble.

I cannot recall a single instance in which a "rural Ossie" or Aboriginal was chosen as a mock patient. Ours were usually typical early-to-middle-aged white adults from Adelaide. I can recall very few instances in which someone's accent was so thick that I couldn't understand them - the literacy rate of Aussies is much much higher than that of the US and most urban and even rural Aussies have perfectly understandable accents. I am baffled by this accusation.

At any rate, I haven't much time and even if what USMedStudent were hard facts, I can understand why "personality conflicts" arose - it reminds me of other "ugly Americans" who made me embarassed to call this country home. Don't go abroad if you expect it (and the country's citizens) to be just like America. Height of arrogance if you ask me.
 
I've just come back from paying my respects in The Domain (Sydney) to the victims of the Bali bombings, so I am feeling good having seen the nice side of humanity today. That's even more reason not to bother wasting my time and energy replying to that sad little bitter and twisted individual USMedStudent. I'll give him some tips:

1. Just accept that you quite obviously aren't the super-gifted medical/scientific genius you make yourself to be. If you were, you would have a scholarship to one of these almighty US medical schools you seem to worship - Mommy and Daddy wouldn't have had to pay your way through at Flinders, a place that will gladly accept the money that the US students can bring in.

2. Just accept that you are totally in the minority, and that you should probably look at your interpersonal and social skills (or lack thereof) for the reasons behind you seemingly not getting on with consultants and academic staff.

3. It's quite evident from your ignorant, condescending, arrogant and neo-Imperialist world view and attitude that you obviously and understandably grated other students (both US and others) and academics, by coming across as a A-Grade w*nker.

Get over it and to be honest, we won't miss you if you never come back.
 
Would that be the same Mary Robinson who's been very silent on human rights abuses in non-Western/developed countries. Let's face it, Australia's an easy target. Haven't heard her being as vocal against China or Cuba? Would that be the same Mary Robinson who was deafeningly silent on the human rights abuses of the Taliban? Would that be the same Mary Robinson who advocates providing kindergarten students with pornographic literature and graphic material to "educate" them about homosexuality? The woman is an ultra-left wing loony with less than zero credibility. And for your information, she is the FORMER UNHCR Commissioner.

Before you post here with your ignorant, illogical and arrogant views, maybe you could do us all the favour of actually having even a fleeting understanding and knowledge of Australian history. Australia has always been a country of migrants from ALL corners of the globe. The First Fleet in 1788 had 19 different nationalities on it, including an American Negro former slave. Pre-1973 Aus was quite clearly NOT an "all-white" country as you claim. The 1850's saw a massive explosion in the Chinese-Australian population due to the Gold Rush. Afghans have been here since very early days (involved alot in the camel trains in Central Australia), as have the Lebanese. Japanese have been here since very early days (involved alot in the pearling industry in Broome). How was Australia an "all-Brit descendant" colony pre-1973?!? So have the hundreds of thousands of non-British migrants who came before 1973 (some many many years before) somehow come to be seen as British? Are my ancestors from France and Germany somehow British? The Italians were the biggest migrant group after the British. The Italians have been here for centuries. Most of the Greeks, Italians, Slavs, Baltic people, Scandinavians, Germans, etc. came well before 1973. Many came before WW2, many more came directly after WW2. Many Vietnamese came before 1973 as they fled from the war. East Timorese have for decades, if not centuries been part of the community in Darwin. How did Australia take "non-white people" "for MONEY"?!? I can guarantee you that the millions of refugees fleeing persecution that we have taken did not pay us anything! They cost money - they must be processed, housed, given social security and health care. I can guarantee you that money was the last thing on the Australian government's mind!

In short, your farcical assertions and obvious lack of knowledge about Australian history just confirms everyone's view that you are an ignorant "ugly American". I think Kimberley Cox summed it up perfectly. You are an embarassment to your parents and your countrymen and women.

Australia does comply with its international obligations. If you'd cared to read the biased and politically motivated report put together by a bunch of United Nations hacks and nobodies, you would have seen that even they couldn't find any breaches of our obligations.

Re Woomera - if it's good enough for Australian Defence Force Personnel, then it's good enough for illegal entry immigrants. The differences are that the ADF Personnell did NOT have airconditioning (which the illegal entry migrants do - there goes your 45 degree argument), they did not have computers, satellite television, world-class health care, counsellors, educational facilities, etc., etc. Oh, and might I add, there is absolutely NOTHING stopping the illegal entry migrants from leaving. The Australian government would quite gladly pay to fly them back to Indonesia, from where they planned their illegal entry into Australia. While you're at it, maybe you can have a look at the US's treatment of its burgeoning prison population (the largest per capita in the world - predominantly black and hispanic I might add), as well as its treatment of Cubans trying to flee to Florida (the US coast guard routinely uses water cannon and other force on those in flimsy vessels trying to flee).

Just a final note about your comments re Aboriginals and land rights. Ever heard of the phrase "People in glasshouses shouldn't throw stones."??

In short, get over your bitterness, face it that you have some serious personal issues, and accept that you're quite obviously not the mentally-gifted prodigal son you claim to be. In fact, to be honest, I think it's plain for all to see that you're really quite ordinary.
 
Oy! I read the first post a few days ago and ignored it, as I usually do with things like this. I have been studying for exams, so I won't tell you what I really think.

First of all...USMedStudent, you have a conspiracy theory! Not everyone is out to get you and some people may not like you, but you should try to figure out why and move on. Yes, I agree that if your patient doesn't like you, you SHOULD be failed. Flinders is training doctors, not book-smart academics. Passing the OSCEs does require patient interaction and you should have attained some level of sophistication in this by the time you reach 3rd year (as this school has a clinical focus).

As for people hating Americans because of their lifestyle, etc...a bit of that does go on, but not to any major extent. I was surprised at first that everyone despised Americans, but loved Canadians when I first got here. I didn't get bitter about it or try to show them otherwise, I think it is amusing. The rest of the world sees the US very differently than we view ourselves, I think this was a surprise for a lot of people. Most Americans have never left the country (including George W. before he was elected!), so this perpetuates the image that we are all self-absorbed rich folk. I don't think ANYONE here is jealous of my car or any other international student's...you should see it! We all suffer from lack of funding at some point in the year, most of us are on really strict budgets and can't wait to actually have an income.

The other thing about Aussies is that they like to make fun of themselves and others. I caught on to this pretty quick and learned to dish it right back and haven't had problems since. It is all in fun, but you almost need to be warned that people are going to deride you as soon as you get off the plane. My family is British and they do it as well...maybe it is a Commonwealth thing.

As for the lawsuits...FALSE, FALSE, FALSE! I had never heard of any of this, so I checked with the office of education to see if I should be worried about 3rd year. Here's the scoop...there have been 3 lawsuits against Flinders in their 25 years of teaching and all of them have been brought by American students. The US is the most litigious country and you'd think that this would make them avoid admitting American students. Not true. The 2002 intake of international students is at least half Americans and it looks like 2003 will be at well (don't worry, it is not finalized yet!). As for the investigations by the US Dept of Edu, that is regarding loans and reporting to the goevernment...it has nothing to do with quality of education (like MD1088 said). Kimberli mentioned one lawsuit back in 1997(?) which they actually told us about at the beginning of the year. We are all very clear on how we will be assessed on every exam. I kind of have to laugh about writing Robbins-esque answers and not passing...my exam answers are barely coherent and I still passed!

Woomera is not cool. I don't know if you have ever seen the place, but I have to agree...I wouldn't want to spend any time there. Flinders currently has a group of students who lobby the government and try to change the policy regarding mandatory detention for immigrants. I think the majority of citizens DON'T agree with the policy and there are almost weekly protests, but the government won't change it. As an American, there are a lot of things I don't agree with that my government does, but I don't expect people to blame me for what George W. does. I have protested darn near everything under the sun and probably have a CIA file (heh, heh). Don't blame all Aussies for something the administration won't change.

Lastly, USMedStudent doesn't speak on behalf of anyone but himself! I don't feel this way, nor does anyone I have talked to. I am a little annoyed, however, that mudslinging brought out some nastiness in the usually hard-to-offend Aussies. Calling all Americans names just because one guy pissed you off isn't showing your superiority, either.

So, can we call a truce?
 
Hey treesap

Thankyou for your message,

I would like to say sorry...I was extremely angry when I read USMedStudent's message, I was probably also influenced a bit because of all the emotion in my City (Perth) due to the Bali Bombings.

I realise that not all Amercians are like USMedStudent (thank god :) ). And I am sorry that my angry outburst may have made it seem I felt that way.

In these troubled times we need to stick together even more, and not find petty differences.

Peace

Jenni
 
I gave more detailed info on this page and the page after, just in case anyone's interested, here it goes:

http://www.studentdoctor.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=46845&perpage=15&pagenumber=1

I feel funny that some people responded to my posts in a very personal manner. That's okay. I don't know what schools they went or are going to down there, but mine, except Flinders, didn't teach me that.

Plus, people are what they eat anyway.

How can anyone explain the statistics that international students at Flinders fail one particular exam at the rate of 3,000 - 6,000% higher than that of Aus domestic students? And what about that rate of ASIAN students which would be in the 10,000% to 50,000%?

In any years since 1996, there are more international ASIAN students fail that exam in one year than Aus students do in the entire history of the 4-yr course. And, Aus students are 2/3rd of the class, Asian students are 1/10th to 1/20th, international students are 1/3rd.

Now, someone said "if a patient doesn't like you, you SHOULD be failed."

What a statement! What do you mean, define, "doesn't like" as in? I don't like a lot of my patients here in this ER, but does it mean I SHOULD make them suffer for a year with no income, no job, groaning in pain? Have you ever heard of "FIRST, DO NO HARM"? The world would be pushed back 1 thousand years of civilization if people were allowed to do the way they are at Flinders. You "don't like" someone, you fail, fire, hurt, that person? I hope you won't ever be my boss. This is not a romantic relationship, let me remind you. This is a medical relationship, where personal conflicts, personalities, preferences, charisma, etc., should play no parts in the decision-making process. Everyone wants nice, pleasant doctors, but it's logistically impossible to judge that FAIRLY. One patient may not like a doctor, but what about others that may like him/ her?

The OSCE is not a ballet audition. Med schools are not the Bolshoi Ballet Company. Sociology and Psychology 101, hundreds of research, say people don't like people for many and for no reasons, mostly irrationally. There are "love at first sight" and there are "hate at first sight." In psychiatry there are transference and counter-transference. That's why people dye their hair for, to be liked more, or disliked less, in their new hair color than in the old one. That's why people do eye, nose, breast, belly, thigh, jobs for.

Perhaps if international students at Flinders go to plastic surgeons before they enroll, they wouldn't have those many problems.

Students need not please anyone; they need to get out correct information from patients and perform correct procedures. It's been said in the halllway at Flinders that if you're a blond girl, you shall get lots of good grades from Oz male consultants. In most if not all OSCE stations, consultants are white males. It's no wonder a few female students I know dyed their hair blonde. It may sound silly, but in that superficial, subjective environment, that's the way it is. If you can't kick it, join it. I did, just to get the h*ll out.

In any relationships, when they're broken, oftentimes it's multi-factorial, multi-dimensional, multi-sided. Who says it's student's fault, but not the patient's or consultant's fault, when things don't seem to go too well? Why students are automatically found guilty when either the patient or consultant points them a finger?

Think about it, folks.
 
Hey USMedStudent

I thought I saw you say that you weren't going to mention this topic again...that u had had enough and were leaving??

I think I can speak for everyone in saying why don't you just do that. Make us all happier.

This Forum was good until you came along.

We are trying to get over the issue now....incase you hadn't read the last two messages. Why do you have to keep bringing it back up...you messages don't even make sense anymore....infact they never did.

Get lost

Jenni
 
Jenni don't waste your time. His claims have been refuted by graduates and current students of Flinders. No one has corroborated his claims. My feeling is he's playing the victim role and the race card due to disillusionment over his failure to excel at Flinders.
 
I don't know the current ethnic make-up of Flinders students. When I was a matriculant, the percentage of Asian students amongst the international students was low - those that were accepted had all trained in the US for undergraduate.

Is there a higher failure rate amongst Asians attending Flinders? Again, I don't know but anecdotally (since I believe those are the "stats" USMED is using) ALL students who failed in my year were WHITE - including some Aussies, males and females. I've already spoken about 1 such case - two other cases were students who had no basic science background and admitted that it did them a disadvantage (and I've discussed here before my belief that Flinders underplayed the extent to which a good basic science background was necessary to do well), another was a white Aussie who missed a great deal of class, didn't show for exams and refused to participate in the group process (yet still had the nerve to demand to be passed). There was an American female in the year behind me, of Asian descent, who failed multiple times - IMHO, not because she was Asian but rather she lacked pure and simple common sense and could not understand the material. It seems easy to blame it on the fact of her race, but without the "back story" your reasoning would be faulty. My feelings on why some Americans failed? It had nothing to do with a desire to make them repeat a year (after all, if you don't make satisfactory progress, you are unable to get loans to pay the tuition, therefore it would be in the school's BEST interest to pass you and get 4 years of tuition out of you rather than 1 - most of us would have been unable to come up with the money to pay for a year without loans) but rather that the make-up of the students themselves. Several students noted that they preferred Flinders to US schools because we"didn't have to work as hard" or the "hours are better", etc. These same students may have very well failed at a US school - not because of their race but because they were looking for the easy way out, or weren't very motivated.

Is there racism at Flinders? Sure - as I've said before I found Australia, especially Adelaide, to be very "white". Strangely enough however, Asians make-up the largest group of immigrants to the country and are much more accepted than those of African descent. Do I believe there is institutionalized racism there? Not during my term. And frankly its no worse, and probably in many ways better given the relative cosmopolitanism of Aussies in general, than here in central Pennsylvania where I regularly see my non-US born colleagues given a hard time because of their accents or their names.

I don't know what problems Flinders has had recently, or if any of what USMED is saying is true - it is untrue that Flinders grads don't keep in touch with the school - we do just as much as any other grad of any school. I didn't attend my graduation not because I wasn't interested but because it was right in the middle of interview season (matter of fact, on the same day as my interview at UVA) and its a pretty expensive trip for someone yet to be making a salary. Most of my colleagues felt the same. I've received a few emails over the last couple of years from current Flinders students asking for advice about the match - none of them has stated any problems. Doesn't mean they don'[t exist of course.

Let's be careful before we accept USMED's anecdotes as statistics - if a class has 1 Asian and 1 Asian fails, there is a 100% failure rate among Asians - likely a fair bit higher than for Caucasians but not indicative that an institutional bias exists against racial minorities.
 
Maybe I am higher on the Maslow's pyramid than I thought, but in my due conscience I must stand up for those grown men that cried. This is an extremely serious issue to many people, not only as much because Flinders produces false-negative results, but also because it produces false-positive graduates every year. I'd be very skeptical of Aus docs that Flinders produces, because they all enjoy favorably rigged results from the Exam Board. I was told that Flinders had to graduate 56 Aus docs a year or it might lose tuition grant from Canberra. It is paid to train 56 docs, so it just has to graduate 56. This is social engineering, but I couldn't care less what Flinders does to Aus people.

Now, about the lawsuits against it, any students that wanted to sue had to go through various internal appeals boards / processes, and only after they had exhausted all of those would they be legally allowed to take the matter to court. The school had a hundred ways to stonewall such appeals for weeks, months. Even after that, they had to find and pay lawyers, who would write letters to inform Flinders of their intent to take legal action, then the school could settle right there, or the matter went to court. Even then, the Adelaide Court might understandably be under pressure from various sources (e.g. political) to throw out the lawsuit. But even with that, as far as I know, at least 3 - 5 lawsuits did make it to the end since 1996, and Flinders settled before there were trials. Most students dropped their lawsuits because it would take months or years to follow, during that time they had to repeat the year, had very awkward moments interracting in the wards, because behind their back everyone from the nurses to the orderlies knew they were suing, and most of them understandably avoided those students. Many students therefore just bit the bullet, repeated the year, and got the h*ll out. Had they kept it, the school might fail them again and again, they were afraid.

About a former Flinders student on here, with all due respect, she has no rights to judge other students' academia. For one, she didn't see their written papers, and secondly she didn't see them performing on OSCE.

About an Oz person in Perth, s/he showed the exact attitude of a typical Oz: show the doors to people s/he didn't like. I met just too many people like him/her in Aus, and that was what I have been saying from my first post: Oz people are very nice, sweet, but only to themselves. They want to keep their country nice and pure and free from "bad elements," from those they don't want to be around in their lovely peaceful country. They can rationalize everything they've done to foreign, Aboriginal people. They can simply say "we did that for the good of the country." No questions asked thereafter. To her/him I would say: with all due respects, you don't own this board; you don't own this world. You can choose to ignore my posts, or write against them, but you can't stop my voice of Conscience.

To the student in Brisbane, I wish him /her the best. Nobody deserves the sad fate of dozens of international students at Flinders. S/he is only on year 1 or 2, so s/he is not ripe, yet, for Oz consultants to drop their axe on. I hope they won't, but if they will, it will be at the end of year 2 or 3 as they always do at Flinders.

I said in 2000, not 1 like the former Flinders student thought might be the case, but 5 out of 5 international Asian students were made to fail, while absolutely no one else was. Then, last year, ALL students that failed OSCE year 3 were also Asian. Before denying further, she could easily email Flinders to confirm. Since 1996, at least 30 - 60 international students were made to fail that exam alone, while at most 1 -3 Aus students failed. The RISK FACTOR for international students therefore is at least 30 - 60 times higher than for Aus students. Nobody including God can deny this FACT.

The anti-international students atmosphere at Flinders, like I said from my first post, has INCREASED tremendously in recent years. I am glad I Ieft all in 1 piece, on time. Last year, 6 international yr-1 students left before the end of first semester because they heard of what happened to international students in previous years, costing Flinders at least $720,000 in opportunity costs over 4 years. No wonder that at least 5-7 yr-1 students failed the year last year but were made to pass and go on to yr-2, with only "directed learning" recommendation--an unprecedented move--because the school couldn't afford financially to see them leaving for good. They should be grateful to 6 people that left. What a joke. Talking about "rigging exam results." That's exactly what the Exam Board is for: to determine according to its budget who passes who fails and how many. This year, class of 2005, there are at most 3-5 US students in the program, while in previous years they were the majority among 30 international students Flinders accepted each year. Money doesn't smell, so it now takes non-US students instead.

If someone has to start all over again in yr 1, s/he may as well re-start at another school, but if s/he has to repeat yr 2, 3, chances are s/he must bite the bullet and do so, because it's hard if not impossible to transfer. That's why Flinders dropped its xenophobic axe only on yr-2, yr-3 international students, who are the most vulnerable and who have no clout--nobody behind to stand up for them.

This issue is NOT trivial. Flinders has consistently damaged the career of dozens of international students unfairly. I've seen several grown men cry at Flinders, and they were not my patients. They were my friends and colleagues. Anyone with Conscience would feel uneasy about it.
 
With all due respect I HAVE SEEN the papers of the student in my class who failed and sued Flinders. I accompanied him to review his test results on HIS REQUEST because he trusted me to give him honest feedback. And I told him as I said here, "You didn't answer the question" or "While your answer contains correct information, you didn't impart it in a succint, easy to understand manner" etc. I had also read his papers which were returned to us and had many of the same comments.

I was not in the room with him during the OSCE but assumed, after living and studying with him for 2 years that he had a tendency to do poorly in oral exams (as many Americans did; it was not a format we were comfortable with) and made the same mistakes on the OSCE as he did with the written exam. However, you are correct I was not present so do not know for sure.

I have repeatedly said that I have no information about the goings-on currently at Flinders. I am not suprised that students would find it difficult to sue Flinders - a situation undoubtedly the same as in the US. Would a US student sue his school I'm sure there would be the same concerns about whether or not he/she was treated fairly on the wards, etc. after the word got out. I'm not in the least suprised that Flinders would discourage lawsuits - what school wouldn't?"

I don't expect that we will ever have the answer as to whether or not there exists some bias at Flinders. I'm not sure you''ll be able to prove/disprove that. If there were some institutional bias at Flinders I'd have expected more of us to have a problem.

Obviously you've had some difficulties at Flinders and I encourage you to post about that (I think I've been pretty open about my problems with the program). However, make sure that your facts are correct:

for example,in the class that started in 1996 none of the students that failed were Americans nor were they ethnic minorities

in my class (started 1997), the two that had to repeat were 1) the afore-mentioned American white male and 2) a white Kiwi whom I mentioned didn't show for class, exams, or most of PBL but yet demanded to be passed even after she failed subs. Of the year starting in 1998, both Americans I am aware of who failed were ethnic minorities but knowing them as I do (and being aware, at least in 1 case, that person never attended any clinical/academic requirements) I was not suprised.

I suppose it is fair to claim that because I was not at the person's side when they were being tested or did not see their OSCE results, that I cannot know why they failed and to go with your argument that it was racism or a desire to get more money out of the Americans. Yet, you seem willing to discount my argument that I observed the behavior and knowledge base of these people for at least a year and should be accorded some value for such. OSCEs and essay type exams are not as objecgtive as the MCQs we are used to and I do not naively believe that there isn't some bias which exists in the scoring of such. However, I believe that knowing a person, knowing how they approach testing situations, their attitude about Flinders and the faculty and their fund of knowledge is a very valuable tool. Thus, I suggest that you consider my source of knowledge on these situations as valid just as I will not question your information on the situation/students failed there over the last 2 years (the Asian female whom I referred to earlier who failed started in 1998). I do not question what has happened since 2000 - I haven't been there since then and it would be irresponsible for me to speak about that just as it is irresponsible for you to state that the same occured 1996-2000.

If Flinders has moved away from recruiting Americans that is unfortunate. In the beginning, Americans were outrightly preferred because of their relative ease of communication in the English language and the relative similarity of the two cultures, making the transition easier. It is doubly unfortunate if the lack of recruitment in the US is due to the litiginous of previous American students. None of my classmates ever complained they felt a bias because of their race; if things have changed that is a terrible shame because while Flinders may have had things wrong with it, the vast majority of us did not feel there was an institutional bias. You are correct in that the faculty was not used to being questioned or called on the carpet and I do believe they have not handled it appropriately (ie, closing ranks rather than being more open about grading policies, etc.). However, IMHO (and as one of the international students there reputed to have been more "vocal" than others) many of my colleagues threw fits about problems which are inherent to academia (not soley Australia) or were quick to cry "foul" rather than try and reasonably assess the problem and fix it. It was a lot easier to blame the school, the faculty, the country rather than realize YOU need to change.

These are simply my thoughts on the issues you have raised. I have no evidence that what you present is incorrect (or at least for the last couple of years) or correct. But I do question simply playing the race card. How do you know the reason these Asian students were failed was because of their race? Could it not be that their fund of knowledge was lacking, that they were unable to communicate effectively, aside from their race? Did these students study together? There are too many variables to simply assume the issue is an institutional bias against Americans or eth nic minorities.

As I have been at home recovering from some emergency surgery and haven't much more energy, I'll end my discourse on this topic here.
 
I just posted this as a new thread, but I probably just should have replied to the current one.

Can anyone suggest neighborhoods in Sydney close to the Uni? I'm looking to move in January to begin Medical school and I haven't been able to find much in the way of housing information (off campus). I'm too old (30) to live in a dorm, but I don't mind house-mates. I'm looking to purchase a motorcyle as well...is Sydney a "motorcycle-friendly" city?

Here in San Francisco, we use "craigslist.org"...is there an equivilent community in Sydney for these types of questions.

Also, can anyone tell me how much I should expect to take out in loans? I've heard $30k (USD) is expected, but that was not in Syd...which is probably more expensive than South Australia or Brisbane.
 
Hi,

Im not sure about good suburbs in Syndey as I live in Perth, and have only been to Syndey on stopover.

But I do know a friend who goes to Uni of Syd...or it may be Uni of NSW...I could give you her email if you want.

Living is Sydney is more expensive than anywhere else in Australia. My friends was at one point spending AU$260 (~US$500) A WEEK in rent. This place was apparently quite nice though. She recently moved to a not as nice flat for $200/wk

Why don't you get in contact with the Uni because most help students find accomadation outside of uni dorms as well. Also maybe if you look up some real estate websites?

Sorry wasn't much help

Jen
 
correct me if i am wrong..but isn't 260AU about 130 USD...I hope that is the case or the whole thing can get sure expensive
 
OOPS

heheh yeah...thats what I meant :laugh:

Doesn't sound as bad now

What can I say....its late over here :rolleyes:
 
Saint Ryan - check out your other post - I've replied there. Near Sydney Uni you can find some nice places in parts of Glebe (slightly grungy, but increasingly yuppiefied), Camperdown (right near RPA), Annandale and Newtown (more grungy and "alternative" than Glebe).

More and more people are driving scooters (Vespas) in Sydney, but not really sure if it's "motorcycle friendly". I think I see more when I go down to Melbourne. Having said that, the traffic in Sydney can be atrocious at times, so a motorcycle is probably a good thing. However, Sydney drivers can be pretty "motorcycle unfriendly"!
 
Hi,
I'm a US med student, and interested in doing an elective rotation in Australia, preferrably @ Royal Melbourne or Royal Children Hosp. in Melbourne. Anyone has any idea regarding the feasibility and advisability about these two hosp.? Thanks
 
Best bet is to contact University of Melbourne or Monash University directly, I know we do at UQ but charge a hefty tuition fee for it.
 
Hi,

I'm starting at the University of Sydney in February and I just had a couple of questions.

1. Does anyone know what the best loan resources are for Canadians?

2. Is a computer good to have for the program? I'm thinking of getting a laptop.

3. I'm still looking at all the residence options. Are there some residence buildings that are better for grad students?

Thanks
 
Bank of Montreal offers max. 20grand a year with a co-signor, and top up with Canada Student Loans and teri's canhelp loans (expensive though) and/or parental support. The only way really for Canadians.

On a sidenote, passed my first year exams!!! I'm in Step 1 mode starting in January for the whole year.
 
Don't know what it's like at USyd, but here at UQ, we wouldn't last a minute without our laptops. Our whole course is on the net. PBL's, we have our laptops, and fast ethernet ports are everywhere.
Can't help with you with res. questions.
 
I'm going to Usyd in feb and I had a few questions for some loan info for U.S students attending.. or who are attending
at this point I've got my stafford loan stuff taken care of and have the maximum (which is like 18,500$ USD) anyway obiously I need to borrow more money... I've looked into a few private lenders i.e teri etc...
so my questions are:
1.What are the best lenders(best rates), and which ones would somebody recommend.
2. Why go through teri? and not a direct lender which are listed on their website (for the rest).
3. I can't get a perkins loan right? just wanna make sure.

I just would like somebody to point me in the right direction...
thanks!
scott
 
I am currently finishing up a masters degree in human genetics here in the US and have just been accepted to U. Melbourne. I am still waiting to hear from the US schools I applied to but am seriously considering Australia (I spent a semester abroad in Melbourne).

How does the Doctor of Medicine (M.D.) program work (is it similar to the US MD/PHD programs)? I am applying to MD/PHD programs here and am interested in surgery; will this program be an option for me?

Does anyone know if US students can continue by doing residency/internships in Oz?

How competitive will my MBBS be in obtaining surgical residencies in the states?

If I do decide to study medicine in the US, can I do a rotation in Melbourne?

Any answers would be greatly appreciated; I fear I will have to decide between the US and Australia and really need to make the right choice.
-Graham
 
A brief response (as I am in clinic)...

Check with U of Melbourne as to whether or not they offer an MBBS/PhD program. In Australia, the MD is a research degree, offered after 5 years of clinical practice and a dissertation (ie, its akin to the PhD here).

Surgery is not very competitive these days, but things may change in 5 years when you apply. However, the MBBS in and of itself will not change your competitiveness anymore than being an IMG will. I'm a grad of Flinders in Adelaide (ie, see my sig file).

Further training after the undergrad degree in Oz are minimally available. Thus, you should not count on being allowed to stay beyond graduation or internship (some have stayed for intern year at lower-level or rural hospitals) or for any work after completing residency (whether there or in the US).

Most US medical schools do allow you to do rotations abroad during your 4th year - I'm sure you could arrange one with Melbourne if your school (should you stay in the US) doesn't have any formal agreements. I know Flinders allows US students to come for rotations during final year.

Hope this helps.
 
There is one thing that is really getting to me. It is very upsetting to have to make such a major decision, such as where to go to medical school, without having all the facts. I am from the US, and I will be leaving for Australia in the middle to late January. I will be getting to OZ 4-6 days before classes start. Why am I leaving it so late? Well, I am waiting to hear whatever I can from a few US med schools. It is really frustrating to have to decide what to do without knowing what the US schools will have decided.
But then again, I do want to go to OZ, but that is something else entirely. Basically it is a pain in the rear to have to make such a tough decision without having all the facts.
_Da Monkey
 
Hey Surf Monkey,
Australia is an awesome place--I went to visit U of Syd, and the atmosphere is really relaxed and everyone is easy-going. I was surprised to see students walking around the campus barefoot!
I have deferred my acceptance for the year to finish up my research and also see what happens with the other apps. Yes, it is a huge decision to make--even the administration said to me that if i decide to go to australia, the road is long and hard if you want to go back to canada (they said going back to us is easier), and staying in aus may be difficult unless you gain permanent residency or marry an Oz!
But, U of Syd remains one of my top choices. Great weather, awesome school, excellent program.
Wow, I hope you have found housing if you have decided to fly down a few days before school starts! Best of luck and I'm sure one way or the other, you'll be happy with the decision.. either way, ur gonna be a doc!!!
 
how does coming out of an aussie school compare to carib schools like sgu, ross in terms of getting u.s. residencies

can anyone going to a foreign med school get residency if they pass the ecfmg tests (csa & toefl)

i'm a newbie at looking into int'l med schools so forgive me if my questions are basic
 
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