Australian Med schools

[DrIng]

This has probably been covered before but here's an overview of the Australian med school system.

There are 'types' of medical school programs in Asutralia- Graduate entry and udnergraduate. The undergraduate programs you enter straight from highschool and typically last 6 years. (To get in you generally have to have leaving results in the top 0.01% of your year... The second type is the rgaduate entry which is what most people reading this forum are probably interested in as it's similar to the US medical school. For the schools that I know about there are no pre-requisites other than having an undergraduate degree. There are no required majors in your undergraduate degree- mine was finance with no science at university at all. These programs are typically of 4 eyars duration although some are a touch longer. The first 2 years are preclinical and the last 2 are clinical focussed. That said, at Flinders at least you are having contact with patients doing basi examinations etc from the first week (my god that seems such a long time ago when the idea of listening to someone's chest was scary... Anyway) There are a variety of entance exams required the GAMSAT or in soem cases MCAT's are acceptable. Entry is done on the basis on a combination of GAMSAT/MCAT scores, undergraduate GPA and interview results. In most schools once you've got an interview your chances are fairly good.
How do they compare with US school, it's hard to say. From my experience there is a lot less focus on minutiae in the first two years (in other words you WILL have to do a decent amount of private study to do well on the Step I) and i may be a bit less intense in the clinical years. (I've heard reports on other areas of this forum of 3rd and 4th year students who have been at the hospital for 2 days straight (with no sleep and without going home) things like that are unheard of in Australia.
I can't say for certain how accepted Australian degrees are by all programs but I know of people from my year who had interviews at John Hopkins for IM and someone from a few years ahead who got a residency in Psychiatry at Yale so 'top' programs are certainly amenable to Australin degrees. Personally I had very ordinary board scores (I didn't study much- 6 weeks in total for Step 1 & 2) but got interviews for 10 psychiatry programs (but couldn't participate in the match because of the stupid CS scheduling debacle- but that should have resolved itself by now.)
Hope this helps those interested...

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[USMedStudent]

Personally I had very ordinary board scores (I didn't study much- 6 weeks in total for Step 1 & 2) but got interviews for 10 psychiatry programs (but couldn't participate in the match because of the stupid CS scheduling debacle- but that should have resolved itself by now.)
Hope this helps those interested...

Psychiatry is very easy to get into, so you shouln't have a problem to get a residency even this year if you get your CS result before July 1st. Innterview performance is graded higher by psy directors than by those of other specialties. Life, travel experiences, maturity, etc., are also more important than school transcripts and Board scores in this specialty. Any competitive candidates should know why.

About the other issue, the situation about Australian med education is like the following.

You are a local manufacturer of, say, a food product. You're proud of your product. You genuinely believe it's good. Your local consumers agree. But lately due to high cost of doing business you're in financial distress, and you must either (1) close your shop, or (2) sell your product to consumers from other countries.

Now, there're a group of possible buyers from a faraway country that wants to buy your product. You know for sure that:

1. Benefit: they will benefit little from your product, because your records show most former buyers from that same country couldn't use it back home due to different customs, way of life, etc. On the scale of 1 to 10 with 10 being the best, you know for sure it's worth 8/10 in your town but probably 2/10 in your buyers' respective country.

2. Risk: You know for sure these buyers must borrow hundreds of thousands of dollars to buy your product. You know for sure if they can't use/resell it within 6 months after leaving your shop - which you know for sure at least 90% former buyers from that same country couldn't - they'll be in a lot of financial difficulties. Even for the less-than-10% that could use/resell it, they don't do very well anyway because your product is not as good as that of the country where your buyers must be using/reselling.

3. Alternatives: You know for sure they don't have to buy your product. There're alternatives for them to buy from hundreds of other sellers from many other countries.

You're aware of the above. Now, torn by the dilemna between (1) closing your shop, or (2) selling your proud product to these foreign buyers that (2.1) you know will do them more harm than good, that (2.2) you know they have other alternatives than buying your product, you chose option (2) ANYWAY to stay in business. Having done that, (2.3) you knowingly evade all questions about the usabilities of your product, (2.4) you knowingly hide dismay consequences that over 90% former buyers from that same country have suffered from buying your product, (2.5) you knowingly don't provide your possible buyers from that country about alternatives they may want to explore.

In other words, you knowingly don't provide your possible buyers from that country with the risk/benefit/alternatives that you know will benefit them in making their decision. You know that, beneficiently you should not sell your proud product to these buyers at all. But you advertise everywhere, mislead many possible buyers and sell them your product anyway very maleficiently for the benefit of your staying in business, even knowingly at very negative consequences to over 90% of your past, current, and prospective possible buyers.

Anybody with average IQ should know what I mean.

 

[pitman]

yeah, anyone with an average IQ knows you are extremely bitter.

Do you realize you just spent a whole page making a simplistic economics analogy?

Or that whenever you open your mouth, out comes looooooonnnnnng vague sweeping indictments full of delusions and sprinkled with specific claims that are easily refuted (e.g., http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?p=2284790#post2284790 or http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?p=454816#post454816 or any other post for that matter)?

good grief.

 

[sjkpark]

I don't like the way this is shaping.

 

[DrIng]

I was trying to keep this nice people...

 

[banana k]

dr ing, i was about to write a post thanking you for an informative, balanced summary... and then i scrolled down and discovered the trolls were back.

i'm new to this forum, so i don't know the rules yet, but is there ANY formal way to ban people like USMedStudent? Honestly, we've heard your point already and we've exhausted the arguments it generates. And I for one would be interested in discussing things more constructive than how sub-par we all are. If we're really that incompetent, why do you keep posting here?

so, again, to the moderators: is there a formal way to ban trolls?

 

[pitman]

In the name of being constructive ...

I think there's one issue with Australian (grad) programmes that has sufficient merit to rant about, namely, that they don't teach as much basic science as is needed for USMLE Step 1 (to the extent that some believe that they were misled about it by the schools when they chose to come in years past, which is a legitimate gripe, but this can no longer be an issue when we know & CONSTRUCTIVELY discuss it through the miracle of the Internet, right?).

Other objective "issues" are non-unique (i.e., they're found, at the least, anywhere outside the US, such as Carib, Israel, Ireland and UK, some of which, incidentally, also don't teach the same basic sciences), while the subjective should be left at that -- allowed to be weighed by the readers themselves.

NB: THE AUSTRALIAN SCHOOLS DO NOT EXIST TO PREPARE FOR USMLE 1. They are also more relaxed in nature, without the competitiveness of American schools where many are jockeying for a better res slot (and in general, Australians aren't *nearly* as competitive in nature outside of their sport, in fact it's frowned upon as part of the "tall poppy syndrome").

As a result, N. American students in Aussie grad programmes (note that the undergrad programmes teach a lot more basic science) must necessarily be independent and motivated enough to seek out the time, resources and/or like-minded individuals to study extra basic science, to pass USMLE 1 (usu. but not always taken after the second year). Some do this studying in 6 weeks, over xmas holidays. Others do it from Day 1. Some have an issue with those who do it in 6 weeks, as they don't think such future docs will retain much later. Well, this is also non-unique, as some ppl will cram wherever you are. (incidentally, the loudest critics of Aussie grads pointing to this reason are Aussie grads themselves who claim to be quite successful in their US placements!).

Because *generally* Oz attracts self-motivated, independent-minded n. americans who have decided that the adventure/cultural experience/different perspective outweighs the negatives they know about, the input is pretty good students (who incidentally tend to have done reasonably well on the MCAT, e.g., 28 ave for this year at UQ, anecdotally similar or possibly better at Flinders and Melbourne), and the end result is that the vast majority of grads of the Aussie grad schools pass USMLE despite the 'science deficit' and get back to the US if they want. Flinders, for example, has over 90% pass rate and it's very simple to Google many, many of their residents.

Other n. american grads stay one way or another to practice (e.g., sponsorship in SA bush, marriage or PR w/ moratorium, etc.), though like for Carib and most of Europe, this can be difficult w/ all the hoops that need to be jumped through.

Some, yes, get stuck in holding patterns after muffing up, and a few get very, very bitter, blaming the world around them, just as there are tools at the Carib (or any other) schools -- check them all out on their respective forums.

-pitman

Correction made to above reported ave MCAT score (28) 1-jun-05

 

[DrIng]

I guess the other side of the USMLE preparation debate is whether you need to know that information. Obviously you do to pass the test but in terms of general medical knowledge, I don't know. I did feel that some of the study I did for the USMLE was very helpful for clinical practice and did cover gaps in my education (this was mainly things like drug interactions and side effects that I didn't learn much about as partof the curriculum.) Another side of this is that because many of the graduate programs are self directed and problem based learning approaches it is easier to scrape by in some areas and those deficiencies are revealed by an objective test like the USMLE. But then a great deal of the knowledge required for Ste 1 especially seems to be obscure minutiae which has very little relevance to clinical practice so i'd say an approach of learn it for the exam and then supress/forget it worked for me (particularly in relation to a lot of the Step 1 stuff) but then I also hate biochem with a passion!!! What relevance this post to Australia vs US I'm not really sure I was just thinking about the nature of the exam.

 

[Winged Scapula]

dr ing, i was about to write a post thanking you for an informative, balanced summary... and then i scrolled down and discovered the trolls were back.

i'm new to this forum, so i don't know the rules yet, but is there ANY formal way to ban people like USMedStudent? Honestly, we've heard your point already and we've exhausted the arguments it generates. And I for one would be interested in discussing things more constructive than how sub-par we all are. If we're really that incompetent, why do you keep posting here?

so, again, to the moderators: is there a formal way to ban trolls?

There is definitely a manner for banning users and we have a well described procedure for doing so.

The problem is you cannot ban a user for simply being a PITA. USMedStudent has a right to his opinions, and as controversial as they may be, he has not violated the SDN TOS. He does make claims about Flinders which we suspect are either incorrect or are the very least, inaccurate. However, we are also simply providing anecdotes as well. Readers simply have to use their own judgement and research to decide what's best for them.

We cannot ban users for actions such as his and I think most SDN users would agree with this policy. If there comes a time when he violates the TOS then consideration will be giving to banning (after a sufficient warning).

 

[leorl]

What you Can do, is put those PITAs in your ignore list. All you have to do is go to your user cp, look to the left and click Buddy/Ignore list, and then add the screen name of the person you'd like not to see posts from.

 

[USMedStudent]

yeah, anyone with an average IQ knows you are extremely bitter.
Do you realize you just spent a whole page making a simplistic economics analogy?
good grief.

Pitman, it's the self-repaired system that makes America great. We're the people that could be cynical at times; and we love to laugh at ourselves as much as we do at others. Just tune into any radio talk shows anytime anyday. You'll hear controversial issues, such as the Schiavo saga now. Even CNN is talking about it all the time. I am sick of most of what I hear, see, about that, too. But I'll defend to death the freedom of speech for people that bother my eyes and ears. If you or anyone are sick of my posts, fine. Just ignore them, ignore me. I don't do this for a living, so I don't recruit readers, listeners. I write NOT for popularity or agreement. I write for what I strongly believe in, which is the right to verify what I think is well-hidden, evasive, even misleading information that most if not all Australian Medical Schools are providing their prospective customers. If you and/or anyone else disagree with me, please talk to your/their beloved schools to have them releasing verifiable information about things like the Match results of their North America students, percentage of Matching, percentage of passing the Boards on first, second, third, etc., attempts. Even schools like SABA release such information every year. If Australian schools don't have something worthy hiding, why do they?

 

[pitman]

Note also that Australian schools don't directly compete/market for *domestic* students either. For example, while the cutoffs are generally known for gpa and gamsat (or undergrad equivalent), schools have never publicly released stats on their accepted students. They also don't brag about what res programmes their grads got into, or what professional college(s) they entered. It's just not an Australian thing to do. Students here don't know, or even care, how to "rate" their schools -- it's just not in their interest.

I've also seen first hand (here and having had prior marketing experience in the US) 1) the lack of marketing savvy in administrations, through no fault of their own, compared to the US; and 2) the bureaucracy involved in trying to change *anything* in administration (e.g., how to shape admissions offices to be more savvy, when unis here are run far less like the "businesses" that US schools are).

Now taking the cultural differences into consideration, it still seems to me, as an American, that one would think it'd at least be in their best interest to collect and release some stats to prospective N. Americans.

Taking UQ as an example (since it's where I am)...this is starting to happen. After several years of having only a handful of n. americans, and thus only one or two students a year taking the USMLE or applying for US res, this year's second years have many more n. americans who will be taking the usmle. There is also now the critical mass of int'l students for the school to take notice of their "issues". So this year the school is working with our medical society to collect the data, and to track the n. americans as they progress and seek residency. btw it's chiefly b.c. of this that the school will at the same time be creating an alumni database to track its domestic grads!

oh, and administrators here are bending over backwards trying to accommodate the interests of the int'l students, by working with the medical society on several initiatives and by unofficially showing gamsat (67 ave) and mcat data (28 ave) for the latest cohort.

As I said a couple years ago, it's funny how a little constructive involvement can actually make a difference.

-pitman

Correction made to above reported ave MCAT score (28) 1-jun-05

 

[USMedStudent]

I agree that it unfortunate that Australian schools do not collect and publish USMLE data; however, I do not attribute this as an attempt to cover anything up. Scant data does not imply the results are poor.

To each his own. The other day I had a 50-yr old patient who already got 2 legs cut off from vascular diseases insisted he be wheeled downstairs to smoke half a pack of cigarettes. Of course he got his wish. Should I add that he was well aware that one of his stumps developed osteomyolitis and might need to be cut off higher up? People often ridicule of advice they're sincerely given. Two yrs ago I was surprised that my uppperclassmen didn't give medical advice much to patients, didn't teach newbie residents much. But now I am becoming one of them, not that I care less, but I've learned that most people can't learn by being told, being taught, even by real, painful experience of forerunners anyway. They'll learn someday, when they're hit hard in the face by failures, by impersonal, harsh realities.

Now that I am 2 yrs into residency, I just laugh of how naive I once was, when I first entered the med school I thought was the best in the world. Now I laugh at many naive med students who are so much exactly like me once. USMLEs are hard, but with practice you may pass on first attempt. However you can't get letters of recommendation from US physicians; you can't get 78 weeks of clinical rotations to put in your CAF - common application form for ERAS. Most Caribbean students have those, that you as Aus med students don't. Those are the first and last things Residency Directors look for, look at. You rarely have a chance to explain why you don't have those. There're over 10,000 people out there who can't, every year.

It's a very cruel, competitive world out there. Every year, at least 10,000 eligible applicants don't get a residency offer, ALL of them already got 3 board exams done. Every year, nearly 20,000 IMGs compete for 7,000 residencies - the rest 15,000 residencies go to 15,000 USMGs. Next yr when MATCH II is put in place, all pre-Match loopholes will be closed for IMGs. It'll forever get more and more difficult for IMGs. Most of them never thought it would happen to them, but it did. I was told by one that it was a blasting blow to the face that he didn't get a residency after so many years of going to school, so many years of trying to get a job that wasn't and may never be. He said he never got used to it, even after 6 consecutive years now. Already passed Step 3 too, but this year he's still looking for a residency. His car was towed by creditors a long time ago. His credit scores probably are in 2 digits now, from defaulted school loans. And he's an all-around White American, with acceptable school records, graduating from St. George, average board scores. Now he's begging me to hire him next year when I open my own practice, if by then he still hasn't got a job.

 

[leorl]

Interesting. From the ECFMG Reporter of 29/03/05

2005 MATCH PERFORMANCE - NUMBER OF IMGS MATCHING INCREASES

For the third consecutive year, the number of first year (PGY-1)
residency positions offered through the Match increased. A total of
21,454 first year positions were offered in the 2005 Match, held earlier
this month. This represents an increase of 262 positions compared to
last year and an increase of 852 positions since 2002.

The number of IMGs who matched to first year positions increased by 143.
Of the 7,645 IMGs who participated in the 2005 Match, 4,230* (55.3%)
matched. In the 2004 Match, 4,087 (53.2%) IMG participants were matched
to first year positions.

There was an increase in the number of matches for both U.S. citizen
IMGs and IMGs who are citizens of other countries. Of the 5,554 IMG participants who were not U.S. citizens, 3,087 (55.6%) obtained first year positions. The number of non-U.S. citizen IMGs who obtained positions in 2005 increased by 117 compared to last year. This is the fourth consecutive year that there has been an increase in the
number of non-U.S. citizen IMGs matching to first year positions.

There were 2,091 U.S. citizen IMG participants, an increase of 76 over
last year. This is the second consecutive year that the number of U.S.
citizen IMG participants has increased. Of the 2,091 U.S. citizen IMG
participants, 1,143 (54.7%) were matched to first year positions, an
increase of 26 over last year.

*Note: The total number of IMGs who will fill PGY-1 positions for the
2005-2006 academic year will be higher than this number, since a
significant number of IMGs obtain PGY-1 positions outside of the Match.

I don't think the situation is as dire as the above poster states. We've all heard those stories but know plenty more who were successful. And obviously, this guy's embellishing.

 

[pitman]

Once again, USMedStudent making stuff up in his scaremongering campaign -- how else to explain his using particular stats that are WAY off base?

Btw students here *do* get US LORs when they go to the US for electives. They aren't necessary in order to get matched, but they do help, and they are gotten. Another "slip-up" by USMedStudent.

...Much hyperbole, little fact.

I'm starting to think USMedStudent works for a Carib school. It's the only thing that explains his constant scaremongering, comparisons, and easily refuted "mis-statements".

-pitman

 

[f_w]

USMedStudent:

I start to get the impression that there is something intrinsically wrong with you. If you can't make it back into the US medical system as a citizen and graduate of an australian school, this can only mean one of two things:
- you suck
- you have the interpersonal skills of an amoeba and as a result got some scathing LOR's.
(or more likely a combination of both)

Every year, numbers of prelim medicine, prelimg surg and FP positions remain unmatched. Hospitals are hiring non-citizens from places like india and nigeria via phone interview in may and early june. (If I registered my dog with the ECFMG, I am pretty confident I could get him into a prelim surgery position somewhere.)




> USMLEs are hard, but with practice you may pass on first attempt.

If making a PASSING grade on the USMLE on the first attempt is a concern for you, maybe you don't have the cognitive and standardized testing skills it takes to make it through medicine.

> However you can't get letters of recommendation from US

Of course you can. You just have to go to the states for an elective or two.

 

[USMedStudent]

I don't think the situation is as dire as the above poster states. We've all heard those stories but know plenty more who were successful. And obviously, this guy's embellishing.

This is my Easter favor for you guys. These are the things your best friend doesn't tell you, and of course your school won't:

Here is the stat from page 3, http://www.nrmp.org/2005advdata.pdf :
Total applicants: 31,862. Withdrew: 4,398. No ranking: 2,116. Matched PGY-1: 19,760.
USFGs: total applicants 3,507. Withdrew: 954. No ranking 462. Matched PGY-1: 1,141.

Total applicants that didn't have a job: 31,862 - 19,760 = 12,102. (38%)
Total USFGs that didn't have a job: 3,507 - 1,143 = 2,364. (67.4%)

The "Match Percentage" (some 50s% for USFGs) only considers those that followed through the last stage but still didn't make it.

The "Unemployed Percentage" is much higher than that, because it ALSO includes those that (1) didn't have an interview so they withdrew, and (2) had interview(s) but didn't think they'd match so they didn't rank.

For USFGs that I think most readers of this board belong to, the most RELEVANT percentage - the ELIGIBLE but UNEMPLOYED one - is at least (2,364/3,507) = 67.4%, plus or minus a few insignificant percentage for people that may get hired illegally pre-Match, legally post-Match. FYI, it's illegal for a program that participates in the match to pre-Match any candidates. I say 'PLUS" this percentage because there are hundreds of new USFGs that enter the ELIGIBLE applicant pool every week, who just passed their required boards in recent days/weeks but most likely won't get a job before July 1st since most jobs were already filled. Tens of thousand more USFGs that haven't passed all required exams are not even being mentioned here. Those are the INELIGIBLES. Some of them go to Physician Assistant school; some go to Nursing, etc.

Among USFGs: tens of thousands of INELIGIBLES, many thousands of UNEMPLOYED ELIGIBLES. Go ask your school how many of its former graduates belong to these 2 unfortunate groups. To find out the former, it only needs to tell you how many former North American graduates it has certified the ECFMG certification for. Subtract this from the TOTAL North American graduates you'll know the number of the INELIGIBLES.

Remember, this 67.4% failure rate includes only ELIGIBLES who already passed Step 1, 2CK, 2CS. Many of them are repeat applicants, with better profile than previous years. Many have passed Step 3, have done further graduate work to boost up their profile, have been actively working in doctors' office, have had recent letters of recommendation from US physicians. The friend of mine that I said in a previous post has glorious letters from the doctors he's working with, for, right now. He passed Step 3 on first attempt. But he can't compete with many new ELIGIBLE graduates who have been doing all 78 weeks of clinical rotations alongside US students right here, who are practically on the same par with US students in the last 2 yrs of med school. During Scramble, some programs just asked where he did the clinicals, and upon his saying he did it in England, before he could say further he heard profuse thanks and a click on the other side.

That's all for now. God Bless you all. Pour out all your anger on me. I am a Catholic, I'll absorb your sins.

 

[f_w]

> plus or minus a few insignificant percentage for people that may get
> hired illegally pre-Match

Nothing illegal here. Anyone who didn't graduate from an AAMC member school is free to sign with a program beforehand. Many of the less competitive IM/FP/peds programs have 20 positions in the match (with secured medicare funding), and another 5 or 10 outside of the match (funded by the faculty practice or some other less secure source). It is entirely legal for the program to fill these positions with 'independent applicants', as long as they require a withdrawal confirmation from the NRMP.

There are no stats on these people once the NRMP lists them as 'withdrawn', I happen to know plenty of people who got hired outside of the match, usually to some community IM program (the only reasonable way for a non-citizen/non-PR to get the necessary H1b work visa).

 

[Mike84]

>

I happen to know plenty of people who got hired outside of the match, usually to some community IM program (the only reasonable way for a non-citizen/non-PR to get the necessary H1b work visa).

I'm Canadian. If I get into an Australian school (I'm applying for 2006 entry), I'm gonna apply for a U.S. FM residency on an H1B when I graduate. Are you saying that, since I need the H1B, I'll prolly get a "sucky" program? Even for FM?

 

[f_w]

The number of hospitals sponsoring H1bs is relatively small. They tend to be the smaller community type. For some reason, universities have lots of hangups on sponsoring H1b. They are afraid of you being defined as an 'worker' by virtue of your visa. On a J1 they can maintain the farce that you are actually a 'trainee' which gives you far less rights than a 'worker'. In addition, it will cost them a couple of $1000 to get your H1b, the J1 costs them a signature on a piece of paper.

In FP your chances are probably better to find a decent residency on H1b than in most other specialties. Don't worry, you'll be fine.

 

[pitman]

The "Unemployed Percentage" is much higher than that, because it ALSO includes those that (1) didn't have an interview so they withdrew, and (2) had interview(s) but didn't think they'd match so they didn't rank.

3) the unknown numbers who placed outside the match; 4) the unknowns who withdrew b.c. they started a family; 5) the unknowns who withdrew for other personal reasons; 6) the unknowns who withdrew for unknown unknowns

Would you prefer that govt unemployment stats for a nation include every adult without a job or all those with under-the-table jobs? Don't you think THAT would be grossly misleading?

-pitman

 

[USMedStudent]

3) the unknown numbers who placed outside the match; 4) the unknowns who withdrew b.c. they started a family; 5) the unknowns who withdrew for other personal reasons; 6) the unknowns who withdrew for unknown unknowns -pitman

People believe what they want to believe. Tens of thousands of INELIGIBLES are flocking to several test-prep programs yr after yr after yr. They and over 12,000 UNEMPLOYED ELIGIBLES that applied but didn't have a residency this year have heard of advice similar to mine in previous posts, but most chose to ignore. Many condemned the advice they were given. Most must have done something seriously wrong, such as going to schools that didn't put them on core rotations in the US, such as going to schools that didn't teach them to ace the boards, etc. Residency programs don't ask for much. Any responsible officials would do like those in my Program. We want well-rounded candidates that've passed the boards with average scores on first attempt, have done core rotations in the US, so that we don't have to teach them the basics all over again once they've got on board.

Imagine if you have to choose a candidate to work with you for 3-5 yrs, during which time you'll see him/her more often than you see your spouse. Would you choose one you know VERY LIKELY will work well based on his/her 78 weeks of experiences, based on several letters of references you can call to confirm; or you take your chances to pick one that MIGHT work well based on his/her 4 weeks of experience here and 74 wks in another country that you have no way to know what he/she did over there, that you can't confirm anything he/she tells you anyway? And you can only interview 10 out of 100 applicants anyway, 95+ among them have done 78 wks of rotations here, less than 5 of them have done only 4 wks here on an elective nobody cares about. Would you call in any among those 5 for interview, and if you do, on what basis will you compare him/her with 99 other candidates to make the $200,000 decision?

I can't believe how stupid I once was by paying $120,000 to a school I had no idea how it'd train me. Less than 10 among 100 North American graduates of my school have got a US residency. The rest are either INELIGIBLES or never-had-an-interview-ELIGIBLES. If not for my Ph.D., I am sure I'd still be looking for a residency now and for the next several yrs, like MOST of my classmates. One is a car mechanics now. The other is getting back to his electronic technician job. A few have married and are living off their husband/wife. Most if not all are in school loan default. Those that are, may have credits in the 2 digits. They may never get back to the mainstream society, now that their paychecks, if any, are deducted substantially to pay the interest on Stafford loans. At this rate, they won't pay them off by the time they retire.

Many other friends are ducking at Queen Elizabeth hospital in Aus that's a safety net for everyone that has nowhere to go. QEH is like a refugee camp for Aus med grads that're unwanted everywhere else. They're in loan default too, and are too scared to get back to the US unless for a Residency. At least one even changed his/her last name (identity not disclosed), as if to run away from creditors. Some work in remote hospitals in the bush a thousand km up North of Adelaide, with almost no chance to ever get back to the US, or even an Aus city, or finish the RMO in Aus. One has got married to a divorced Aus, much older than him/her (identity not disclosed). I wonder if it's a blank marriage just for him/her to get an Aus citizenship to get into an Aus specialist training program. It'd be a nightmarist story if one is to do a documentary film on "life after Aus med schools for North American students." It may even win the Oscar for horror movie.

I am on here to gather info for my duty as Chief Resident next year, when I'll be involved in screening and interviewing candidates. This is my last post on the issue, for at least 6 months. God bless you all.

Year-2 IM Resident

 

[f_w]

- You take yourself and your buddies Curly and Moe as a representative sample of ALL FMG's.
- I am sorry you sucked in medschool and had trouble finding a residency.
- I am glad to hear that someone found pity on you and hired you after all (charity and mercy, it's a catholic thing)
- your pompous 'next year when I am chief resident' BS is almost embarassing. But I couldn't fault your PD (who is the one making the hiring decision) for shying away from grads of your medschool after what he has been through with you.

 

[Winged Scapula]

Less than 10 among 100 North American graduates of my school have got a US residency.

This is patently false. I know 10 just off the top of my head from my class alone who are currently doing or have already finished residency in the US and are either doing fellowships are or working as physicians. Since I also know 2 more from the class before me, that equals 12 right there. I find it highly unlikely that in the 5 years that Flinders has graduated medical students, that we 12 are the only ones who have gotten a US residency.
Bear in mind that these are just people I know and keep in touch with. I'd love to "prove" this to you but since I don't have these people's permission to do post their names here, I can't in that fashion.


Please tell me where you got this information from so that I can verify it with Tony Edwards or someone else because you have been mislead.

I don't deny that Flinders has its problems and that there are people who have not passed the USMLE on the first try. But please do not continue to post flagrant misunderstandings or dare I say, lies.

 

[deleted59964]

 

[Winged Scapula]

I have received some interesting information from Dr. Tony Edwards, Professor of Biochemistry, Chair of Admissions Committee and Coordinator of International Medical Education Programs at Flinders. I have known Dr. Edwards since my days at Flinders and always found him to be honest and fair; therefore, I have no reason to doubt the veracity of this information he provides.

He does state that since Dr. Teubner (the former Chair and Coordinator) died they have not a complete set of data (they do ask students to provide a score report to FLinders, but cannot force them to do so), but what he does provide (and they are working on getting all the data together) does verify my claims above:

"Dear Kimberli,

Thanks for your email. It was nice to hear from you and I appreciate
the information about the website comments.

.... (personal information that I have deleted for privacy issues)

We certainly try hard to keep reliable data on both USMLE outcomes
and PG history. I will try to get something comprehensive together
for you ASAP but the short summary is that

* nearly all our US and Canadian students sit USMLEs and while we
don't have results for all of them, for the 50+ where we do have
results, the Step 1 first attempt pass rate is about 96% Which is
higher than the pass rate for Canadian and US Schools. Students who
took the Step 1 test in 2003-2004 (NB: latest year full set of data available - Kim) had a mean mark of 226 v. 215 for all takers.

* among graduates from 1999-2001 for instance, we knew in 2003 of 17 that had Residencies in the US (NB: and I don't believe this includes those that had finished residency by 2003 - Kim) and since I took over Jillian's job at the end of 2003 most of our US or Canadian graduates (other than those who have stayed in Australia) seem to have been successful in the Match. So anecdotally, very few are now failing to get
Residencies Indeed people have places at establishments like Yale and
Mayo Clinic in Rochester.

It would be good, however to provide you with more systematic data
and I will try to put this together. But USMed Student's claims are
definitely wildly wrong!

....(more personal stuff)

Best regards,
Tony Edwards
Dr A M Edwards
Chair, Admissions Committee; and
Co-ordinator International Programs
Department of Medical Education
School of Medicine, Flinders University

GPO Box 2100, Adelaide, South Australia 5001
Telephone: (618) 8204 4262
Fax: (618) 8204 5675
Email: [email protected]


Undoubtedly USMedStudent had a hard time atFlinders and is quite upset and bitter about his experiences. He has every right to post his thoughts and beliefs about that experience. However, I draw the line at posting what amount ot lies. I try and stop these when and where I can. I will simply suggest that users take his statements with a grain of salt and verify the data about Flinders grads themselves.

 

[banana k]

brilliant!

 

[deleted59964]

Excellent, thanks for that Kimberli - it's so nice to have some facts about this topic.

 

[Winged Scapula]

I usually try not to get drawn into these topics but when gross inaccuracies or lies (which I suspect in this case of sour grapes) are posted here I feel a responsibility to do what I can to get the appropriate information for users.

Obviously I cannot do that for all schools but when and where I can I will try to do so.

As always, please do not use SDN or advice/information from me or anyone else affiliated with it to make significant decisions about your educational and/or career plans. Please validate with other independent sources and make up your own mind about the best path for you.

All my best...

 

[leorl]

It is very ironic that the attempts of USMedgrad and posters like him to get everyone to "JUST CHECK OUT THE FACTS, MAN!" have come around to bite him in the ass. Not that anyone believed his exacerbations and lies to begin with. Thanks to those in the SDN community (not just the moderators ) who keep a level head and demonstrate vigilance. The sole purpose of these boards is to dispell accurate information that will help a universal medical student/staff population, and I believe we are doing so successfully thanks to y'all.

 

[BambinoMD]

I guess the other side of the USMLE preparation debate is whether you need to know that information. Obviously you do to pass the test but in terms of general medical knowledge, I don't know. I did feel that some of the study I did for the USMLE was very helpful for clinical practice and did cover gaps in my education (this was mainly things like drug interactions and side effects that I didn't learn much about as partof the curriculum.) Another side of this is that because many of the graduate programs are self directed and problem based learning approaches it is easier to scrape by in some areas and those deficiencies are revealed by an objective test like the USMLE. But then a great deal of the knowledge required for Ste 1 especially seems to be obscure minutiae which has very little relevance to clinical practice so i'd say an approach of learn it for the exam and then supress/forget it worked for me (particularly in relation to a lot of the Step 1 stuff) but then I also hate biochem with a passion!!! What relevance this post to Australia vs US I'm not really sure I was just thinking about the nature of the exam.

I think most of the stuff that you need to study for Step 1 (2) is definitely needed in order to build up your clinical acumen armamentarium in a systematic and practical way. You can never really know too much in medicine, and if you study good Step 1 prep books you should learn the basic stuff that you really ought to know, or at least be initially familiar with so that you can build up more practical clinical knowledge on a solid basic medical science foundation. The mechanics, or style of the exam itself is another thing entirely, and it is meant to be difficult so as to stratify the candidates, but reading good prep books whether or not you take the exams is almost invaluble if you have any ambition about wanting to know your $hit across the topic spectrum. And I wanted to say a word on how long you have to study for Step 1 in the other thread, but alas(!) it was closed. If you aren't a slacker student in general, one or two months should allow you to pass the test, but for those of you that want to get into a program in the US, passing it isn't the ultimate point. Rather, beating the mean by the largest margin possible is the ultimate point. So if someone was to ask me when to start studying the prep books, I'd say as soon as possible, especially if you are in a PBL program.

Oh by the way, sorry if this was off topic.

 

[BambinoMD]

It is very ironic that the attempts of USMedgrad and posters like him to get everyone to "JUST CHECK OUT THE FACTS, MAN!" have come around to bite him in the ass. Not that anyone believed his exacerbations and lies to begin with. Thanks to those in the SDN community (not just the moderators ) who keep a level head and demonstrate vigilance. The sole purpose of these boards is to dispell accurate information that will help a universal medical student/staff population, and I believe we are doing so successfully thanks to y'all.

In the interest of objectivity there are a few things which I think UsMedStudent has right (even though, sadly, I think most of the stuff he propagates is inaccurate propaganda). One is that I think the matching statistics for FMGs is pretty low, I think that it was in the mid 50% range in 2003 compared to, like, 93,% for US grads, although I have no idea what the statistics are for N. American FMGs specifically. In any case, that is why it is so important for FMGs to be well prepared academically, get good Usmle scores, and do US rotations. On that note, another thing that USMedStudent correctly alludes to is that Carib. students do have some advantages, maybe even really significant ones when it comes to getting a spot in the US. This is because they do 2 whole years of clinical rotations in the US. This could be a huge advantage as these students are known quantities when it comes to applying in the US, and they are already "socialized" to the US medical system/culture. Not to mention them having more chances to network and get lots of letters of recommendation from US attendings. Now don't read between the lines and infer that I'm arguing that going Caribbean is better, I was just stating some advantages that they can have.

Also one is largely on their own when setting up rotations from Australia, so start organizing and setting up rotations at least 3 to 4 months before hand. Also I didn't have a visa problem, but it could be a real problem and those of you that need visas will need to be very flexible.

 

[Winged Scapula]

In the interest of objectivity there are a few things which I think UsMedStudent has right (even though, sadly, I think most of the stuff he propagates is inaccurate propaganda). One is that I think the matching statistics for FMGs is pretty low, I think that it was in the mid 50% range in 2003 compared to, like, 93,% for US grads, although I have no idea what the statistics are for N. American FMGs specifically. In any case, that is why it is so important for FMGs to be well prepared academically, get good Usmle scores, and do US rotations. On that note, another thing that USMedStudent correctly alludes to is that Carib. students do have some advantages, maybe even really significant ones when it comes to getting a spot in the US. This is because they do 2 whole years of clinical rotations in the US. This could be a huge advantage as these students are known quantities when it comes to applying in the US, and they are already "socialized" to the US medical system/culture. Not to mention them having more chances to network and get lots of letters of recommendation from US attendings. Now don't read between the lines and infer that I'm arguing that going Caribbean is better, I was just stating some advantages that they can have.

Also one is largely on their own when setting up rotations from Australia, so start organizing and setting up rotations at least 3 to 4 months before hand. Also I didn't have a visa problem, but it could be a real problem and those of you that need visas will need to be very flexible.

I agree that he is correct about the overall statistics for IMG/FMG matching. The NRMP does not separate the candidates into IMGs vs FMGs, etc. so we really have no hard data except that from the schools as to the matching for US citizens who study abroad. Anecdotally, it does seem as the average FMG without US citizenship has a hard time, if one checks the forums and job postings, but again...this is simply anecdotal.

I remain unconvinced that 2 years in the states provides a significant advantage over several months, which most of the Aussie schools will allow you to do. A student really shouldn't need 2 whole years to get accustomed to the US system and since every hospital is a little different in its day to day functioning, there will be learning for all interns come July 1, regardless of country of origin. I was able to get several LORs from US faculty, which I'm told were good and this was with less than 6 months in the US (I used my vacation term as well to do a rotation). But since this is not a factor which we can measure, it really depends on what the consumer feels is appropriate for him or herself. I do think that spending some time in the US getting acclimated to the system and getting some LORs is of great importance. Students studying abroad who desire to come to the US should make every effort to do some clinical rotations here, IMHO.

 

[Winged Scapula]

Thanks...I'd forgotten that ECFMG kept that data and if I understand correctly this just relfects those who used NMRP, not any pre-matches or SFMatch.

 

[leorl]

Right, I posted those statistics in the 1st page, which USMed responded to with some sort of inflated number. I think then it becomes important to do as Kim did and contact schools of interest directly to see if they have information on the pass rates of their North American students. Or perhaps, ACER, for a blanket stat on US students in australia as a whole (like AB does for Ireland, although we're not sure how helpful this pass rate is).

I also agree with Kim in that I don't think that 2 years of US clinical experience is hugely beneficial. It'd help when going back, as there would be less acclimatizing or "catch up" time to get used to the system. But in a lot of places abroad, you get more clinical exposure (i.e. 3 or more years) in a setting that really allows you to communicate with patients (and not worry about impressing some attending or something all the time).

 

[BambinoMD]

I remain unconvinced that 2 years in the states provides a significant advantage over several months, which most of the Aussie schools will allow you to do. A student really shouldn't need 2 whole years to get accustomed to the US system and since every hospital is a little different in its day to day functioning, there will be learning for all interns come July 1, regardless of country of origin. I was able to get several LORs from US faculty, which I'm told were good and this was with less than 6 months in the US (I used my vacation term as well to do a rotation). But since this is not a factor which we can measure, it really depends on what the consumer feels is appropriate for him or herself. I do think that spending some time in the US getting acclimated to the system and getting some LORs is of great importance. Students studying abroad who desire to come to the US should make every effort to do some clinical rotations here, IMHO.

What you used your vacation term to do a rotation? Blasphemy! Well, I used my vacation term for full time study for the USMLE so you probably had a better time then I did. Well having essentially 3-4 rotations that you can do in the US when coming from Australia just means that the stakes are higher, and you need to make those rotations count, that's all. My advice would be to not waste the opportunity and to read up and prepare before hand, work hard, and get good letters. The best thing about not doing 2 years in the US is that it is a lot less stressful being a 3rd and 4th year med student in Australia

 

[gnin]

Out of curiosity, how hard is it for a foreign student who graduates from an aussie medical school to get PR or citizenship status and do his residency and practice medicine in australia?

 

[UsydGrad]

* nearly all our US and Canadian students sit USMLEs and while we
don't have results for all of them, for the 50+ where we do have
results, the Step 1 first attempt pass rate is about 96% Which is
higher than the pass rate for Canadian and US Schools. Students who
took the Step 1 test in 2003-2004 (NB: latest year full set of data available - Kim) had a mean mark of 226 v. 215 for all takers.

* among graduates from 1999-2001 for instance, we knew in 2003 of 17 that had Residencies in the US (NB: and I don't believe this includes those that had finished residency by 2003 - Kim) and since I took over Jillian's job at the end of 2003 most of our US or Canadian graduates (other than those who have stayed in Australia) seem to have been successful in the Match. So anecdotally, very few are now failing to get
Residencies Indeed people have places at establishments like Yale and
Mayo Clinic in Rochester.

It would be good, however to provide you with more systematic data
and I will try to put this together. But USMed Student's claims are
definitely wildly wrong!

....(more personal stuff)

Best regards,
Tony Edwards
Dr A M Edwards
Chair, Admissions Committee; and
Co-ordinator International Programs
Department of Medical Education
School of Medicine, Flinders University

GPO Box 2100, Adelaide, South Australia 5001
Telephone: (618) 8204 4262
Fax: (618) 8204 5675
Email: [email protected][/I]

OK, Dr Edwards at Flinders has told us that he is aware of 17 Flinders graduates who have entered residency programs in the US. And he knows of 50 Flinders grads who have passed step USMLE step 1 (there are 3 more steps in the process!). And how many international students has Flinders graduated over the last 5 years? How many N. Americans? Is it in the hundreds? Less? I am not impressed with the way he throws out the names of a couple big name institutions ("establishments", as he says) in the US without even specifying what specialty programs accepted his students.

He qualifies his statements with "other than those who have stayed in Australia" -- he absolutely would have access to that number but has failed to provide it.

This is hardly "factual" data. It is interesting how some posters have seized on this! Even Dr. Edwards admits, it is "anecdotal". His statements raise a lot more questions than answers!

Anecdotally, Flinders has the best reputation of Australian schools for preparing international students.

The "fact" that everything in this Australian international medical student business is "anecdotal" warrants extreme caution.

 

[pitman]

USMedStudent, you're carrying on like an impudent child and should accept that you have no idea what you blather on about. If you knew anything about the man whose motives/integrity you're questioning (or cared to), you might understand this criticism.

Incidentally, you have painted yourself into a corner: are you accusing Tony (thus Flinders) of lying, or just of being deceptively evasive? About which numbers? What, the really high pass rate he's reporting for recent (most relevant) cohorts just isn't acceptable to you? Come on, don't make allusions, make the accusation!

Do you realize the sample size of int'ls you'd have to use to undermine his data is that for the most recent (i.e., relevant) *year* reported? Wanna take a guess at what that was? Are you trying to convince anyone that the students who've chosen to stay in Oz (which isn't easy) do so only b.c. they couldn't pass USMLE I (the only USMLE that really matters, and the only one that's a point of contention)? Or that Tony's a liar b.c. in his email defending USMLE pass rates he didn't give a treatise on those grads who haven't even taken the USMLE??

If Tony were to "publish", say, his email to Kimberli (which she technically has just published), would that thus non-anecdote therefore be more factual to you? Or would your argument then shift to being that the schools must be lying non-anecdotally, b.c. your anecdote as an embittered (supposed) *USyd* grad trumps all?

Are you a paranoid?

*This post originally responded to one made by USMedStudent that was subsequently removed*

-pitman

 

[AusMeds]

I am a Canadian who is currently attending Flinders. I know Dr. Tony Edwards and must say that one would be hard pressed to meet a more honest and decent individual. His integrity is exceptional. In fact, Dr. Edwards' passion for the school and all of its students is one of the things that makes Flinders great. I don't believe the criticism that is launched in his direction, or quite frankly in the direction of all Australian medical programs is appropriate.

There seems to be a perception promoted by a select few that the Oz medical programs are just out to steal cash from gullible North Americans and don't care what happens to them. This could not be further from the truth. I have met many of the 100+ foreign students at Flinders and have not met one that is not having a positive experience here or one that believes they will not secure a residency in their desired target country. At the same time, we all recognize that having accepted the IMG route - we will have to work harder than a non-IMG back home in order to reach our goal. That's OK as that's what I signed up for.

I consider myself to be a welcomed guest in a foreign country. I could not be more proud to call my Australian hosts my friends and am grateful that they have opened their "home" to me. I fully recognize that there are numerous Australians who cannot attend medical school who would desire my spot and am humbled that it has been given to me. I don't expect an Australian medical program to be designed around the USMLE or the MCCQE (Canadian equivalent) and (in the spirit of PBL-style self-learning) accept full responsibility for preparing myself to write these exams. I also accept the fact that if I don't perform well in these exams that this is my responsibility and would be my failure and not the failure of Flinders. I am willing to work harder than a Canadian back home to prepare myself to write these exams and to secure a competitve+ grade. I accept the fact that Flinders will make a "small" profit from my tuition and believe that they have a right to do so; after all, there has to be something in it for them or else why would they operate an international students program? My opportunity to have a medical career (an opportunity that I would have been hard pressed to achieve at home due to the limited number of medical school spots) and Flinders' opportunity to make a small profit on my education represents a win-win scenario that I am totally comfortable with.

If my belief-system makes sense to you, then you will be happy at Flinders or most other Australian medical schools. If you think that I am crazy for believing as I do - then stay home as you will not be happy here. It's as simple as that.

What I find quite troublesome about this thread is the posting of incorrect facts and disinformation by a select few. It would be a real shame if this disinformation caused people considering Australia for medicine to make bad decisions - perhaps going to lesser schools elsewhere or dropping the idea of medicine altogether. The behaviour by these posters is so NOT what medicine is all about. Medicine is about helping people not harming.

It would be much more helpful to everyone if these posters publish their experiences in such a way that says ... "I had a bad experience in Oz because I expected X and got Y - so if you expect X you may want to consider somewhere else." To post statements that suggest Australian medical schools are all dishonest and "warrant extreme caution" suggests a vengeful motivation directed at the Australian schools that will harm both the great reputations of these schools and the prospective students who read this board expecting constructive help in making very difficult life decisions.

 

[banana k]

thank you, aus meds... whenever i get jumpy about going into med in australia because of some of the troll posts here (despite all the constructive posts that i try to pay more attention to), thankfully something like yours or kim cox's or whoever's comes up and helps me remember what the point is--being happy and helping people. not getting to the top, like it too often is in us med schools. cheers.

 

[Winged Scapula]

OK, Dr Edwards at Flinders has told us that he is aware of 17 Flinders graduates who have entered residency programs in the US. And he knows of 50 Flinders grads who have passed step USMLE step 1 (there are 3 more steps in the process!). And how many international students has Flinders graduated over the last 5 years? How many N. Americans? Is it in the hundreds? Less? I am not impressed with the way he throws out the names of a couple big name institutions ("establishments", as he says) in the US without even specifying what specialty programs accepted his students.

He qualifies his statements with "other than those who have stayed in Australia" -- he absolutely would have access to that number but has failed to provide it.

This is hardly "factual" data. It is interesting how some posters have seized on this! Even Dr. Edwards admits, it is "anecdotal". His statements raise a lot more questions than answers!

Anecdotally, Flinders has the best reputation of Australian schools for preparing international students.

The "fact" that everything in this Australian international medical student business is "anecdotal" warrants extreme caution.

I thought I made it clear that the information was anecdotal and not finalized data. Perhaps they do have the data and are refusing to share it but given my past interactions with Dr. Edwards, I choose to believe that he is being honest with me(us).

I can't say how many international students or N. Americans Flinders has graduated but its hardly in the hundreds in the 6 years of the GEMP. 100 at the most, which would include non-North Americans.

I too would like to see the final data and will share it when I receive it.

 

[pitman]

USydGrads is correct to point out that the data from Flinders is incomplete and self reported.

Yeah, just as there's usu a grain of truth to paranoid delusional behavior. Just enough to make others paranoid. Unfortunately, the data Aussie schools get must necessarily be self-reported and thus incomplete (unless such (self-)reporting were to become part of student assessment!) So ranting and raving about reports only being 'hearsay' or 'anecdotal' (since how can a school publish in good faith what's hearsay?) will persist, as though such forms of reporting inherently deserve condemnation.

Flinders is attempting to keep better, albeit anecdotal, tracking data. UQ is also starting to do this (now that there are much larger numbers of int'l students), as a joint affair b/w admin and the med soc in order to help a bit with validity. USyd, if they know what's good for them, will also start to do this if they haven't already.

But while helpful to future level-headed candidates, such steps by the schools won't ever shut up those ppl who only see deception and greed and other nefarious intentions in the schools here. They will merely shift the argument to what illogically [and non-uniquely] amounts to, "there's no way for us to verify their hearsay/anecdotes, so it must be wrong, given their capitalist greed!" And when the schools put in the effort to verify the data manually, the response will be akin to, "they're collating/verifying the data themselves, so it's unreliable and they must be lying, the greedy capitalists!"

Such terminal naysayers should never come to Australia.

-pitman

 

[UsydGrad]

Doctors practicing in Australia are registered with their state medical boards. These registers are public information. If you still know the names of your graduates (and they didn't change names to escape this or that), it would not be difficult to find out if they are practicing in Australia.

I suspect that N. American state/province registers could be similarily searched if you had a list of graduates.

Does your school make you do stupid little projects (ie. "options"). There's an idea.

I do not question Dr. Edwards integrity or the legitimacy of his "data". I am impressed that Flinders has a real live biochemist involved in such matters -- as opposed to all these touchy feely role-playing GPs come "medical educators". However, I don't think the numbers presented here and credited to him are terribly informative.

It'd be a nightmarist story if one is to do a documentary film on "life after Aus med schools for North American students." It may even win the Oscar for horror movie.

By the way, I like this guy/gal's sense of humor and would be willing to work on such a project with him/her. There are some real horror stories coming out of some of these places. Happy to say, some survive. I've been trying to convince some investigative-type journalist pals in the US to take a look at this.

Just don't go into debt to shell out 120K+ on the basis of anecdotes. (Some where between junk bond and blue chip -- hard to know just where!)

Incidentally, to say that a school doesn't adequately prepare students for the USMLE, is to say that they don't teach medicine. [Many Australian doctors with no desire to work in the US take this exam to enhance their resumes -- it means something everywhere. Interestingly, you pretty much can't go anywhere in academic medicine in Australia with out doing a couple years stint in the US (or possibly Great Britain depending on your specialty).] This is a very straight forward exam testing minimal basic and clinical science. The very idea that the USMLE is such an "issue" with FMG candidates in Australian medical schools should clue you in.

I would recommend doing the Kaplan 15 week IMG Step 1/2 Prep Course (www.kaptest.com) prior to entering an Australian program so you can keep your focus though all the fun and games. (Sometimes, I think, I got my ECFMG eligibility in Australia but I got my medical education at Kaplan.)

 

[pitman]

Enough pitbully attacks for me! This is the end of my existence here. No way I'm getting sucked into this crap. "10+ posts" is already too many! I suspect many others have been driven away for the same reason.

(http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?p=2425991#post2425991)

since you claim integrity...bye bye now. c'ya. adios.

 

[mgobovic]

I've only skimmed through the posts on this topic but wow does there seem to be some controversy about Aussie schools! I figured I'd just put in my 2 cents in since I've recently graduated from USyd. Yes they have some problems. I don't think PBL is a good way of learning all throughout four years. I think it's excellent for topics like pathology and learning clinical medicine but not for basic science. And as for the north american students who graduated with me it's hard to say I haven't heard how they've done on the match but they all did excellent on their USMLE (ie well above the mean). A lot of my US classmates decided to stay for internship year mostly b/c of having aussie significant others. I don't think anyone would say that going overseas for medical school is the ideal situation if you're planning on coming back to the US to practice but I certainly don't think it has harmed me. In my case I prematched at UMDNJ which was in my top 3 and while I didn't get interviews at MassGen or JHU I was pretty pleased at the invites I did get. I certainly didn't get the impression from my interviewers that an Australian education hurt me actually at U Arizona and Penn State it was the opposite.

I think that in the end that if you're going to do it be sensible and don't have any illusions. Yes going overseas makes it more difficult. No they're not going to spoon feed you medicine. No they don't gear their medical education towards taking 2 8-hour multiple choice exams. Yes you're going to have to keep on top of things especially USMLE Step 1, LORs and US clerkships. I think they definitely could do a better job teaching basic sciences. But I also think they do an excellent job teaching clinical medicine my USMLE scores sure show it. No I don't have any regrets.

 

[pitman]

Glad to hear from someone at usyd who isn't bitter .

But ppl should keep in mind that 99% of any perceived bitterness comes from just two posters (who many here believe are one and the same).

-pitman

 

[UsydGrad]

Leorl:
I tried to put you and those green things on my "ignore list", but it was not possible.

What you Can do, is put those PITAs in your ignore list. All you have to do is go to your user cp, look to the left and click Buddy/Ignore list, and then add the screen name of the person you'd like not to see posts from.

 

[UsydGrad]

I have had some limited email correspondence with Dr. Edwards. He provided some additional information. I would encourage those with questions and concerns to contact him directly. He seems helpful and offered, what I thought, a balanced view. He did not attempt to candy coat the situation in regard to international students. I found this refreshing.

I understand that 14/17 international students in the most recent Flinders graduating class are doing internships in SA. [It was not mentioned (they may be MIAs) whether any of the remaining 3 successfully gained residency in N. America.] The 14 have received placements in teaching hospitals which I think is encouraging. However, those 14 are not in US (or Canadian) residency programs. Perhaps, some will get there eventually. It was pointed out that 38/"just over" 100 Flinders international graduates to date have obtained residencies in N. America. It wasn't clear whether these were all US/Canadian citizens (many Asian international students desire residencies in the US), what types of residencies, how long it took to get them or whether any were successfully completed. [ECFMG data suggest that USFMGs fare worse than foreign FMGs when it comes to gaining residency in the US (obviously, there are some good reasons for this).] In any case, my feeling is that these numbers are much more encouraging than some of the vague comments put out by other schools.

I will also point out, most of the recent Sydney graduates (as confirmed by the admission's office) are also still in NSW doing internships. However, not all were able to get teaching hospital placements. If you can't get an internship in a teaching hospital, it's probably not worth your time. (Internship and RMO years in Australia are not going to count toward training elsewhere. So, it comes down to the quality of any experience that can be gained.)

I think the implication is that the 4-year programs at these schools do not offer a complete package. How many times have you had your questions/concerns countered with, "Don't worry, you'll learn all that in internship!"? Does an internship +/- an RMO year (1-2 more years in their system) make up the difference? Perhaps. Statements to the effect that the Australian MBBS is equivalent to the US MD degree are somewhat misleading. Equivalents in terms of what? For ECFMG purposes, yes. Educational standards, no. (No real standards to speak of.) Basic science training, no. Clinical science training, no. Procedural skills training, no.

Incidentally, I think it should be mentioned again that "doctors" are not on the select occupations list for immigration to Australia. It is certain "specialist medical practitioners" who have been added to the list.

As always, I would encourage you to independently confirm any information of interest.

I am a Canadian who is currently attending Flinders. I know Dr. Tony Edwards and must say that one would be hard pressed to meet a more honest and decent individual. His integrity is exceptional. In fact, Dr. Edwards' passion for the school and all of its students is one of the things that makes Flinders great.

 

[banana k]

actually, USyd, they are on the list... every specialty AND the GP designation is worth 60 points on the skilled migration points test. i'm not sure whether there is a separate stream for specialists vs GP's in ADDITION to the skilled migration stream, but from what i recall surfing the DIMIA web page, they were included there too.

didn't you say you were leaving the forum at some point?