Atheism in Medical School and the Practice of Medicine

[DokterMom]

A very religious, elderly cancer patient once asked me if I believed in God and to pray with her. I told her that I did, even though I actually don't and held her hands while we prayed. I felt that in that moment, she was simply scared of the idea that she might die soon and looking for comfort in her belief that God was watching over her and that she would soon find peace in heaven. Maybe it was insincere, but I'm glad I did it.

I've also prayed with religious friends when they have asked me to. My boyfriend's family is pretty religious and when I am at their home, I join them in holding hands and praying before we eat. I think it's more a matter of showing respect for their beliefs in the same way that I would hope they respect mine.

This seems fundamentally dishonest, and in some ways, disrespectful of both her beliefs and mine. Hypocrisy and all...

I think one of the reasons people mistrust athiests more than people from other religions or other belief systems is the idea that you need a religion to have a system of morals. The religious person thinks that even if you believe in a different god, at least you believe in a god and therefore you have some moral system. Most of the moral systems are very similar in nature, too. But an athiest has no such thing. If we hurt or kill somebody, we aren't worried that a god will punish us for our actions. That scares people.

So the only reason you do good things and refrain from doing bad ones is the belief / fear that God will punish you? Seems like a 3-year old's moral code... Most atheists believe in right and wrong and a substantially similar type of moral codes as most religious people, minus the dietary restrictions.

Sure, there are some religious people who will question your trustworthiness because of a perceived lack of moral framework, however personally, I have more of an issue with knowing whether or not I'm interacting with an "atheist" (no problem) or an "anti-theist" whose presuppositions are that I am stupid, irrational, untrustworthy, or maybe need to stop breathing. This militant anti-theist movement has actually harmed atheist as a whole, in my opinion. Hating what someone else believes can easily give way to hating those who believe it. And this works both ways. It's no good.

I guess what might tricky here is walking the line of being kind and good-hearted while also espousing a view that argues someone else's fundamental belief system is "made up." It's a confrontational stance, no matter how politely gilded, since the stakes on one side are so high.

Anti-theists? Haven't met many of them, and certainly not arguing that it makes any sense to denigrate a religious person's world view -- particularly in a time of need. Please don't confuse the two. But honestly, I see much more disrespect of atheism than atheists overtly disrespecting religious people.

I find it very easy to be cynical in this world as a scientist and I realized I didn't want to have all this hate and anger in my heart. There was no smug intention in those words, only love that I'm trying to share.

Hate and anger? Who would want that? Certainly not most atheists. CERTAINLY not most secular humanists. If your heart was formerly filled with hate and anger, I can see why you wanted and needed a change, but please don't blame those bad feelings on a lack of religion. The two are in no way related.

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[tdram]

You implied that a belief in religion to feel better on approaching life was akin to addiction which is a disease (a mental disorder) that impairs daily functioning (i.e. alcoholism).

Religion can and does impair daily functioning, especially when it comes cultish and extremist. It can be more dangerous than alcohol.

Alcohol is not dangerous for everyone and neither is religion. But some people take both too far.

 

[DermViser]

Read what you wrote, replace any reference to religion with the drug of your choice. You said it, not me.

You can replace any of the words in my sentence to change the meaning. But equating religion, which gives many people solace, the drive to do things out of the goodness of their heart for those less fortunate, to be a better father/mother/sibling, etc. and feel that they have a purpose in life, to illicit drug addiction which, BY DEFINITION, impairs daily functioning is a low blow and serves nothing more but to inflame.

 

[tdram]

That's so funny, as there was a temporary time that I stopped taking drugs. I'll admit it made me feel very bad inside (i.e. hate and anger as you mentioned) - almost like acid eating up the lining of the container that holds it. I realized that I couldn't life with feelings like that.

See what I mean? It's the way you said it.

 

[DermViser]

Religion can and does impair daily functioning, especially when it comes cultish and extremist. It can be more dangerous than alcohol.

Alcohol is not dangerous for everyone and neither is religion. But some people take both too far.

I am sure there are atheists who also take it too far. But to tar an entire group as taking it too far is just as bad as well.

 

[tdram]

I am sure there are atheists who also take it too far. But too tar an entire group as taking it too far is just as bad as well.

Lack of a belief can't be taken "too far". You're confusing an atheist and an anti-theist. It's the second that can take it too far by attacking the religious. I condemn the second. I am the first.

 

[LostinLift]

Hate and anger? Who would want that? Certainly not most atheists. CERTAINLY not most secular humanists. If your heart was formerly filled with hate and anger, I can see why you wanted and needed a change, but please don't blame those bad feelings on a lack of religion. The two are in no way related.

Actually if you believe in certain things then they are completely intertwined. But I would not dream of forcing my beliefs on someone, true change can only come from deep internal motivation.

I was a mostly very happy person before, but cynicism and negativity, at least my in experience (disclaimer), tend to follow from a "life is cruel/pointless" ideology.

 

[tdram]

You can replace any of the words in my sentence to change the meaning. But equating religion, which gives many people solace, the drive to do things out of the goodness of their heart for those less fortunate, to be a better father/mother/sibling, etc. and feel that they have a purpose in life, to illicit drug addiction which, BY DEFINITION, impairs daily functioning is a low blow and serves nothing more but to inflame.

It also drives even more people to discriminate, hate, take away people's human rights, mistrust, and kill. The facts are out there, just look around the world. I lived through it.

 

[DermViser]

See what I mean? It's the way you said it.

The words you replaced in my sentence were: "felt that God must not exist" with "stopped taking drugs". You could have easily replaced that with "taking drugs". That's what happens when you replace words, it changes the meaning of them entirely.

 

[tdram]

The words you replaced in my sentence were: "felt that God must not exist" with "stopped taking drugs". You could have easily replaced that with "taking drugs". That's what happens when you replace words, it changes the meaning of them entirely.

You stopped doing something (believing in god), so I replaced it with stopping doing another thing (taking drugs). I have not changed the meaning of your sentence.

If you stop doing something and experience the symptoms you had, that's withdrawal.

 

[DermViser]

It also drives even more people to discriminate, hate, take away people's human rights, mistrust, and kill. The facts are out there, just look around the world. I lived through it.

Well, it's obvious this thread is devolving quite rapidly, and likely will be closed soon so I'll leave now, and make good use of the Ignore button. So .

 

[tdram]

Well, it's obvious this thread is devolving quite rapidly, and likely will be closed soon so I'll leave now, and make good use of the Ignore button. So .

OK, if you want to just ignore what makes you uncomfortable, feel free. Doesn't change the facts though.

 

[WhippleWhileWeWork]

Lack of a belief can't be taken "too far".

I assume you mean lack of belief in God, not lack of beliefs in general?
I'd argue that anti theism is in fact atheism taken too far.

 

[tdram]

I assume you mean lack of belief in God, not lack of beliefs in general?
I'd argue that anti theism is in fact atheism taken too far.

While anti-theists share the lack of belief in a god, that is the only similarity. An atheist is not an anti-theist. An atheist is simply one who does not believe in a supernatural power. That is not the same as hating people who do or hating religions and desiring to destroy them. That is a completely separate thing.

 

[WhippleWhileWeWork]

But honestly, I see much more disrespect of atheism than atheists overtly disrespecting religious people.

You must not be familiar with the "New Atheism" movement.

 

[WhippleWhileWeWork]

While anti-theists share the lack of belief in a god, that is the only similarity. An atheist is not an anti-theist. An atheist is simply one who does not believe in a supernatural power. That is not the same as hating people who do or hating religions and desiring to destroy them. That is a completely separate thing.

Of course, I didn't say they were the same thing. I said one is the other taken too far, in my opinion.

 

[DermViser]

While we don't always agree, I do appreciate your having shared your perspective here as a religious person. I do worry about this topic a lot, and am always looking for people's opinions on how to be kind and respectful in this domain. I'm sorry it ended with poor armchair psychology.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not a religious devout person who goes to a place of worship frequently and uses religion as an edict as to what others should do. I do, however, believe in a higher power than myself, as I am mortal, and I make absolutely no apologies. I am sad too that it devolved into name-calling and clairvoyance over something so benign.

 

[tdram]

You must not be familiar with the "New Atheism" movement.

I don't subscribe to that. Honestly the name atheism means nothing to me. There's no group I belong to. I just don't believe in a supernatural world. That's about it. You can use whatever name you want to describe it. What I don't do is hate religions and want to destroy them. That's not me.

I couldn't care less what you believe in. That's your right to do in your own head. If it works for you, great.

 

[WhippleWhileWeWork]

I don't subscribe to that. Honestly the name atheism means nothing to me. There's no group I belong to. I just don't believe in a supernatural world. That's about it. You can use whatever name you want to describe it. What I don't do is hate religions and want to destroy them. That's not me.

You're also an "atheist" when it comes to the hundreds of religions you don't believe in as well.

Good, I'm glad you don't hate people who don't believe what you believe. But I'm not sure why you quoted me to say this.
I'm also not sure what your last sentence has to do...with anything. It's illogical to a monotheist.

 

[tdram]

Good, I'm glad you don't hate people who don't believe what you believe. But I'm not sure why you quoted me to say this.
I'm also not sure what your last sentence has to do...with anything. It's illogical to a monotheist.

I was just pointing out that these are just labels that don't mean much. People get too worked up over labels and who belongs to which one. I don't like labels, I just use them because there's sometimes no better way to explain something quickly.

 

[tdram]

I'm done with this thread too. It's too bad that religion is such a touchy subject that people take offense so easily. This is likely why there are so many wars going on in the name of religion, a thing that's supposed to promote peace.

 

[WhippleWhileWeWork]

I'm done with this thread too. It's too bad that religion is such a touchy subject that people take offense so easily. This is likely why there are so many wars going on in the name of religion, a thing that's supposed to promote peace.

You've made multiple swipes at religion and religious people in this thread. Saying you don't care what people believe is disingenuous at best, when you clearly are being antagonistic towards people who don't believe what you believe.
In this post you're basically saying "Religious people are easily offended so they start wars", really?
We're the intellectually dishonest ones?

 

[WhippleWhileWeWork]

I was just pointing out that these are just labels that don't mean much. People get too worked up over labels and who belongs to which one. I don't like labels, I just use them because there's sometimes no better way to explain something quickly.

Your first two sentences are in conflict with each other. Those labels mean everything, they encompass entire worldviews, cultures, and societies some times, if they didn't really mean anything, people wouldn't get worked up over them.

 

[tdram]

Your first two sentences are in conflict with each other. Those labels mean everything, they encompass entire worldviews, cultures, and societies some times, if they didn't really mean anything, people wouldn't get worked up over them.

I'm not gonna get riled up. Don't waste your time. I just stated some observations and facts. What you make of them is up to you. I don't really care either way.

 

[WhippleWhileWeWork]

I'm not gonna get riled up. Don't waste your time. I just stated some observations and facts. What you make of them is up to you. I don't really care either way.

Hey, we agree on something!

 

[tdram]

You've made multiple swipes at religion and religious people in this thread. Saying you don't care what people believe is disingenuous at best, when you clearly are being antagonistic towards people who don't believe what you believe.
In this post you're basically saying "Religious people are easily offended so they start wars", really?
We're the intellectually dishonest ones?

I'm not making "swipes" at anybody. I just made observations. You're interpreting them as me trying to knock you down. I'm not. I really don't care what you believe in. I hope you don't care what I believe in either.

 

[tdram]

Hey, we agree on something!

Yes, I guess so!

 

[tdram]

If any atheists want to talk to a fellow atheist about my experience in med school, feel free to PM me.

 

[pilotjoe]

I'm disappointed that I am late to the party for this one. I too, was thinking about starting a humanist/secular group at my (Jesuit) medical school. I was hoping that we could use it to help de-stigmatize the term atheist and discuss how we should handle situations in medicine like the OP discussed.

When I worked in the ER, I was lucky enough to work with a great physician who was also an atheist. I asked him how he handled being asked if he was religious. I liked his response, "I thank you for your concern about my beliefs, but what is important is that you <insert well wishes>. I am here to ensure that you get the best treatment possible." Or some variation of that.

I would most certainly comfort the patient in almost any way possible as well, including reading a verse with them.

EDIT: I was raised a Christian in the midwestern Bible-belt.

 

[TooMuchResearch]

Hi,

I'm an incoming MS1 student and very excited to begin medical school in a few weeks. I was browsing through my school's "student clubs" that are offered, and I noticed that there are multiple religion-based groups (Christian, Mormon, Jewish, Muslim) whose primary aim it is to discus the practice of medicine through the scope of their religious and spiritual beliefs.

As an atheist, this got me thinking about how my lack of belief in the claims of religion may affect my medical career, and it also got me wondering whether or not a forum or group for secular medical students would serve a worthwhile purpose (unfortunately, there are no "secular" or "humanist" clubs at my school).

I know religion can be a touchy subject for some people, but I was hoping to get some insight from fellow medical students on the issue of being an atheist medical student:

1) First of all, I'm curious if any of your schools have any sort of secular student clubs that discuss issues of medicine/patient interaction through a secular lens? If so what are their goals/purpose?

2) In your experiences, is atheism/agnosticism common among medical students?

3) Most importantly, I'd like to have a discussion on this thread about atheism and medicine. Let's say, hypothetically speaking, if I were to start a "Secular Medical Student" group, what sort of ideas would be good starting points for interesting discussion?

To get the ball rolling...

How should an atheist physician handle interactions with intensely religious patients? In my very limited experience of shadowing physicians as an undergrad, I witnessed multiple patients discuss religious matters with the residents/attendings (ie. asking if they believe in God, if they pray, if they are religious, etc). Is it wrong to be honest with them, in times that they are likely fearful (of death, surgery, disease, etc) and seeking security through your words?

Or, can it actually be important/beneficial for secular physicians to be honest and open about their beliefs, both with their patients and the medical community as a whole? Is there a dangerous under appreciation of medicine (not in an arrogant sense, but in an "I'm not going to the doctor even though I have [insert disease/symptoms of your choice] because I know God will protect me"...sense) in religious communities?

On the flip side, can some religious physicians actually do harm to their patients by practicing through a religious lens? For example, I once shadowed an orthopedic resident who was a devout Mormon. When it came to pain management of his patients, he was very opposed to the usage of standard narcotics (hydrocodone, oxycodone, etc). He refused to prescribe drugs to many of his patients (I know I'm no doctor yet, and I know that the prescription of narcotics is an issue in itself, but it was easy to tell that he was basing his decisions largely off of his Mormon belief system) and even tried to convince them to remove all alcohol and caffeine from their diet (as if a glass of wine or a cup of coffee was going to slow down the recovery time of a broken arm...)


Lastly, I'll leave you with this. I have seen no reason to believe that any religion on Earth is anything more than man-made. There may certainly be some sort of higher power that we cannot perceive, but no all-knowing, all-powerful, and beneficent being (as proclaimed by most religions) would allow the amount of suffering that exists in the world that requires medicine in the first place. As such, I believe that this life is the only life that is guaranteed (yolo...?) and thus must be cherished and lived to the fullest of potential. In my case, I know for a fact that I became a much more open-minded, empathetic, and compassionate person towards all of fellow-mankind when I abandoned the religious beliefs that I was raised with. My lack of belief is an integral component of my desire to become a physician and contribute to humanity through the practice of medicine, and I believe I will be a better physician because of it (Note: I'm only saying that I will be a better physician than I, personally and subjectively speaking, would have been with MY previous religious beliefs...I'm by no means claiming that secular physicians are better than religious ones!).

And now for your thoughts... thanks for reading/responding!

You handle interactions with intensely faithful folks the way you do with everyone else. If they ask about your beliefs, it is okay to redirect them or tell them you're not comfortable discussing it. If they ask you to pray with them, you can certainly stay with them and reflect quietly on their care or anything else...it doesn't hurt you to sit quietly while someone else prays.

Refusing to provide adequate analgesia to post-op pts and pts with fractures is cruel. Veterinarians can apparently lose their professional credentials for that type of behavior, but we allow it for human doctors treating human patients. However, abstaining from caffeine and alcohol during fracture healing is better for recovery.

 

[Mad Jack]

Hi,

I'm an incoming MS1 student and very excited to begin medical school in a few weeks. I was browsing through my school's "student clubs" that are offered, and I noticed that there are multiple religion-based groups (Christian, Mormon, Jewish, Muslim) whose primary aim it is to discus the practice of medicine through the scope of their religious and spiritual beliefs.

As an atheist, this got me thinking about how my lack of belief in the claims of religion may affect my medical career, and it also got me wondering whether or not a forum or group for secular medical students would serve a worthwhile purpose (unfortunately, there are no "secular" or "humanist" clubs at my school).

I know religion can be a touchy subject for some people, but I was hoping to get some insight from fellow medical students on the issue of being an atheist medical student:

1) First of all, I'm curious if any of your schools have any sort of secular student clubs that discuss issues of medicine/patient interaction through a secular lens? If so what are their goals/purpose?

2) In your experiences, is atheism/agnosticism common among medical students?

3) Most importantly, I'd like to have a discussion on this thread about atheism and medicine. Let's say, hypothetically speaking, if I were to start a "Secular Medical Student" group, what sort of ideas would be good starting points for interesting discussion?

To get the ball rolling...

How should an atheist physician handle interactions with intensely religious patients? In my very limited experience of shadowing physicians as an undergrad, I witnessed multiple patients discuss religious matters with the residents/attendings (ie. asking if they believe in God, if they pray, if they are religious, etc). Is it wrong to be honest with them, in times that they are likely fearful (of death, surgery, disease, etc) and seeking security through your words?

Or, can it actually be important/beneficial for secular physicians to be honest and open about their beliefs, both with their patients and the medical community as a whole? Is there a dangerous under appreciation of medicine (not in an arrogant sense, but in an "I'm not going to the doctor even though I have [insert disease/symptoms of your choice] because I know God will protect me"...sense) in religious communities?

On the flip side, can some religious physicians actually do harm to their patients by practicing through a religious lens? For example, I once shadowed an orthopedic resident who was a devout Mormon. When it came to pain management of his patients, he was very opposed to the usage of standard narcotics (hydrocodone, oxycodone, etc). He refused to prescribe drugs to many of his patients (I know I'm no doctor yet, and I know that the prescription of narcotics is an issue in itself, but it was easy to tell that he was basing his decisions largely off of his Mormon belief system) and even tried to convince them to remove all alcohol and caffeine from their diet (as if a glass of wine or a cup of coffee was going to slow down the recovery time of a broken arm...)


Lastly, I'll leave you with this. I have seen no reason to believe that any religion on Earth is anything more than man-made. There may certainly be some sort of higher power that we cannot perceive, but no all-knowing, all-powerful, and beneficent being (as proclaimed by most religions) would allow the amount of suffering that exists in the world that requires medicine in the first place. As such, I believe that this life is the only life that is guaranteed (yolo...?) and thus must be cherished and lived to the fullest of potential. In my case, I know for a fact that I became a much more open-minded, empathetic, and compassionate person towards all of fellow-mankind when I abandoned the religious beliefs that I was raised with. My lack of belief is an integral component of my desire to become a physician and contribute to humanity through the practice of medicine, and I believe I will be a better physician because of it (Note: I'm only saying that I will be a better physician than I, personally and subjectively speaking, would have been with MY previous religious beliefs...I'm by no means claiming that secular physicians are better than religious ones!).

And now for your thoughts... thanks for reading/responding!

No one cares about your belief or lack thereof. As to "no all-knowing, all-powerful, and beneficent being" would not allow there to be great suffering in the world- without pain, you cannot truly understand joy. Without loneliness, you cannot appreciate what it means to have others close to you. Without death, life becomes meaningless. Suffering and pain, whether evolved or designed, are what give us the depth of feelings and emotions that make us fully human and allow us to experience the great highs of life due to the stark contrast provided by its greatest depths.

Religion has been shown to have numerous psychological and health benefits, as well as providing social support structures that are largely absent in the lives of many that do not actively practice religion. A recent study showed that those who attend weekly religious services live seven years longer than those who do not. Active practitioners of religion are less likely to commit crimes, abuse drugs, and are more likely to have finished high school, among other things. Plus people who actively attend religious services are shown to be happier than nonbelievers and those that do believe but do not attend weekly services. I would be wary of judging the beliefs of others, however foolish they may seem to you, for religion, despite all of its flaws, is actually a pretty good thing for people.

Atheists do this weird thing where they seem to be very preoccupied with the religion of others, despite not having one of their own. It's similar to how a lot of conservative Christians seem to be all bent out of shape about the homosexuality of others despite not being homosexual themselves. In six years, only twice did the religion of coworkers ever come up. No one cares. Except, strangely enough, atheists. These conversations were always initiated by atheists- dude, we don't care about your lack of belief, nor do we care what each other believes. What we do when we go home is between us and whatever higher power we do or don't believe in. And I never had a single case of a patient questioning the beliefs of their physicians or caregivers- they've got bigger things to worry about if they're in the hospital than what you do on Sunday morning FFS.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/jeffrey...for-all-of-us-even-those-who-dont-follow-one/

 

[Promethean]

. However, abstaining from caffeine and alcohol during fracture healing is better for recovery.

Source? You may pry my caffeine out of my cold jittery hands. Seriously, I have doubts that moderate use of either of those would have significant effect. And taking my comforting cuppa away is probably going to do more harm than good.

 

[EMDO2018]

No one cares about your belief or lack thereof. As to "no all-knowing, all-powerful, and beneficent being" would not allow there to be great suffering in the world- without pain, you cannot truly understand joy. Without loneliness, you cannot appreciate what it means to have others close to you. Without death, life becomes meaningless. Suffering and pain, whether evolved or designed, are what give us the depth of feelings and emotions that make us fully human and allow us to experience the great highs of life due to the stark contrast provided by its greatest depths.

Religion has been shown to have numerous psychological and health benefits, as well as providing social support structures that are largely absent in the lives of many that do not actively practice religion. A recent study showed that those who attend weekly religious services live seven years longer than those who do not. Active practitioners of religion are less likely to commit crimes, abuse drugs, and are more likely to have finished high school, among other things. Plus people who actively attend religious services are shown to be happier than nonbelievers and those that do believe but do not attend weekly services. I would be wary of judging the beliefs of others, however foolish they may seem to you, for religion, despite all of its flaws, is actually a pretty good thing for people.

Atheists do this weird thing where they seem to be very preoccupied with the religion of others, despite not having one of their own. It's similar to who a lot of conservative Christians seem to be all bent out of shape about the homosexuality of others despite not being homosexual themselves. In six years, only twice did the religion of coworkers ever come up. No one cares. Except, strangely enough, atheists. These conversations were always initiated by atheists- dude, we don't care about your lack of belief, nor do we care what each other believes. What we do when we go home is between us and whatever higher power we do or don't believe in. And I never had a single case of a patient questioning the beliefs of their physicians or caregivers- they've got bigger things to worry about if they're in the hospital than what you do on Sunday morning FFS.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/jeffreydorfman/2013/12/22/religion-is-good-for-all-of-us-even-those-who-dont-follow-one/

Wow I usually agree with you but a lot of your post is really delusional. I'm calling BS on everything I highlighted. Religion has ruined many people lives, it has destroyed even more minds.

 

[tdram]

Wow I usually agree with you but a lot of your post is really delusional. I'm calling BS on everything I highlighted. Religion has ruined many people lives, it has destroyed even more minds.

I agree. More killing, abuse, and torture has been done in the name of religion than anything else. More hatred has been created over religious differences than anything else.

The findings of that study likely have more to do with the sense of community that religion creates than anything else. People who belong to any sort of community are by far happier and well adjusted than those who don't.

It has nothing to do with the belief in God itself.

 

[Mad Jack]

Wow I usually agree with you but a lot of your post is really delusional. I'm calling BS on everything I highlighted. Religion has ruined many people lives, it has destroyed even more minds.

Show me the research that shows religion is a bad thing. There are some people that go down the crazy path and get all nuts about it, but the majority of people that believe are pretty damn normal and just happen to be believers. If you are one who believes in the evidence, rather than relying on anecdotes, religion is a very positive thing.

http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/2648114?uid=2&uid=4&sid=21104499108033
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencet...-shoplift-drugs-download-music-illegally.html
http://news.byu.edu/archive12-oct-churchschool.aspx
http://money.usnews.com/money/perso...12/04/12/religion-makes-people-happierbut-why

 

[DermViser]

Wow I usually agree with you but a lot of your post is really delusional. I'm calling BS on everything I highlighted. Religion has ruined many people lives, it has destroyed even more minds.

You've got to be kidding.

 

[tdram]

You've got to be kidding.

Take a look at Iraq and the Middle East and tell me religion's got nothing to do with it..

Religion also teaches people to be closed minded, and not question things, which is dangerous.

 

[EMDO2018]

I agree. More killing has been done in the name of religion than anything else.

This thread is very triggering for me. My little sister attempted suicide because my family disowned her for coming out as a lesbian saying she will burn in hell, it wasn't natural, life of sin, etc. I had to convince her not to drop out of school. I always support her and I'm there for her if she needs something. Honestly, religion does do some good for people but it also does a lot of bad, my personal experience with it have mostly been negative, I don't care too much for it.

 

[pilotjoe]

http://www.gallup.com/poll/170822/believe-creationist-view-human-origins.aspx
http://www.salon.com/2014/04/21/sor...f_americans_dont_believe_the_big_bang_theory/
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2004/feb/16/20040216-113955-2061r/?page=all

"Mommy, where do we come from."
"Well, Johnny, Adam was the very first man ever. God created him from dirt and blew life into him. He saw that he was lonely, so he took a rib out of him and created Eve, the very first woman."

"Then their kids interbred and led to everyone here today." THE END

 

[DermViser]

This thread is very triggering for me. My little sister attempted suicide because my family disowned her for coming out as a lesbian saying she will burn in hell, it wasn't natural, life of sin, etc. I had to convince her not to drop out of school. I always support her and I'm there for her if she needs something. Honestly, religion does do some good for people but it also does a lot of bad, my personal experience with it have mostly been negative, I don't care too much for it.

Oh, then I very much understand how you feel. Very sorry for what happened - I agree that's not right.

 

[tdram]

This thread is very triggering for me. My little sister attempted suicide because my family disowned her for coming out as a lesbian saying she will burn in hell, it wasn't natural, life of sin, etc. I had to convince her not to drop out of school. I always support her and I'm there for her if she needs something. Honestly, religion does do some good for people but it also does a lot of bad, my personal experience with it have mostly been negative, I don't care too much for it.

This is very sad. I'm sorry that your sister had to go through that.

 

[WhippleWhileWeWork]

I agree. More killing, abuse, and torture has been done in the name of religion than anything else. More hatred has been created over religious differences than anything else.
.

Do you have some sort of data for this?
There's a few things that pop out at me with this sort of claim
1. define "in the name of religion", does that just mean that people's resolve to die for resources, power, control, etc was strengthened by their religious convictions? Or are you claiming that wars are literally being fought over nothing but differences in beliefs about a deity?
2. for the majority of recorded human history, mankind has been religious and fighting wars. Of course most wars have something to do with religion, at least in so far as those fighting were religious, there was no other real option.
3. correlation does not equal causation. Just because religious people are fighting doesn't mean religion is the singular cause of the fighting.

 

[WhippleWhileWeWork]

Take a look at Iraq and the Middle East and tell me religion's got nothing to do with it..

Tell me:
1. money
2. power
3. land
4. resources
have nothing to do with it.

Over simplifying war into some caricature about religion isn't being very fair.

 

[AnonymousMed]

Thanks for all of the responses everyone, some have been very helpful at answering my initial concerns. I definitely wasn't expecting to come home to 100+ responses, but I'll respond to a few of them that jumped out at me.

I certainly would not preach to any patient or argue with them about their religion. But I'm not sure I'd go as far as to pray with a patient. I think that would be insincere. I don't mind finding a priest (most hospitals have one) and then being present during the prayer, but it wouldn't make sense for me as an athiest to fake belief in prayer for the benefit of a patient.

I actually have been asked about my religion by several patients, even as a med student, and it's a tricky situation. Usually these are hyper-religious types who would go into shock if I told them I was an athiest. So the dilemma becomes, should I be honest with them because the patient-doctor relationship should be one of trust? or should I lie to them because the doctor also has a responsibility to do no harm to the patient, physically or psychologically. Maybe athiests shouldn't be treating hyper-religious patients because if the patient was to ever find out that he/she was treated by an athiest, that might enough to cause them significant psychological harm.

I had a hyper-religious patient that I ended up in a really long conversation with and she sincerely believed that athiests were possessed by the "devil". Believing in the wrong god, in her opinion, was simply a mistake that could be corrected, but denying the existence of a god all together had to be rooted in pure evil. I kept my mouth shut and didn't say a word about athiesm, but I feel like if I was an attending, I would be honest with her and let her decide if she wanted to continue having me take care of her or not. It just wouldn't have been right to continue seeing her and let her find out down the road that she was being taken care of by the "devil". That would certainly harm her a lot mentally.

This is a very important question, one that I would like to gain more insight on. It seems that a lot of people think a physician should simply keep his beliefs or lack thereof to themselves, while others think that honesty in the face of questioning from a patient is more appropriate. I, having not even begun medical school, do not know yet how I would feel handling these sorts of situations. With most aspects of my life, I feel that sincerity is essential to healthy human relationships, and I feel that this would be especially true of my relationships with patients.

A very religious, elderly cancer patient once asked me if I believed in God and to pray with her. I told her that I did, even though I actually don't and held her hands while we prayed. I felt that in that moment, she was simply scared of the idea that she might die soon and looking for comfort in her belief that God was watching over her and that she would soon find peace in heaven. Maybe it was insincere, but I'm glad I did it.

I've also prayed with religious friends when they have asked me to. My boyfriend's family is pretty religious and when I am at their home, I join them in holding hands and praying before we eat. I think it's more a matter of showing respect for their beliefs in the same way that I would hope they respect mine.

By definition, your actions in the first scenario were insincere...However, I'm not claiming that they were right or wrong. Would it maybe be better to handle the situation in a manner that is both honest and comforting? Maybe saying something like "I do not know whether or not there is a higher power. All that I know is that I will treat and care for you to the best of my abilities, and if there is a higher power looking over us, well then that's great too. However, I would be happy to spend a moment to pray with you if that is what you would like"... or something along those lines?

One thing medical training put in perspective for me is that I think there must be a physiologic mechanism in the CNS that wires people to need/seek/be comforted by religious beliefs. Likely, communities tightly bound by religion over the development of the human race were positively selected by increased reproduction and resource management.

Therefore, whether I think the real God is the Christian God, Muslim, Hindu etc, or whether there is a God at all, I understand the value in people's beliefs and that their beliefs are soundly based.

On that note, I don't have any problem praying with patients or offering comforting words relating to their religious beliefs. I think there really isn't any shame in hiding atheism if your patient is looking for understanding and wants to feel like you know and understand their beliefs.

I think it is a bit of a stretch to claim that communities with religion were positively selected for because of religion. Correlation does not imply causation. I would say that communities tightly bound by any factor are more likely to survive. Religion is a tightly binding factor because children are indoctrinated from such a young age, and oftentimes exiled (socially or literally, depending on the place and times) if they choose to reject the beliefs of their community. Fear (in hell, exile, social rejection, etc.) is used as a mechanism to promulgate the religion over time, resulting in tightly bound communities. In this light, however, I do not think that religious beliefs are soundly based...they are simply the product of cultural upbringing.

I think one of the reasons people mistrust athiests more than people from other religions or other belief systems is the idea that you need a religion to have a system of morals. The religious person thinks that even if you believe in a different god, at least you believe in a god and therefore you have some moral system. Most of the moral systems are very similar in nature, too. But an athiest has no such thing. If we hurt or kill somebody, we aren't worried that a god will punish us for our actions. That scares people.

This is an important point because people do truly believe this of atheists. This is also a reason I feel that it is important to be open and honest about your beliefs as an atheist in order to help change the general perception of what an atheist is.

I don't see why you would find this puzzling, surely you can understand that a system of testing for the natural world has very limited applicability to supernatural occurrences. As far as the things that can be proven from the bible, that's the realm of archaeology and there has been some useful evidence produced from that.

Another source of proof (or rather disproof) from the bible that you may consider looking at is its inherent contradictions. There are many instances in the old testament and the new that God, or men of God, act in ways that are clearly against the moral code that he wrote. Is killing the innocent immoral? Of course, but that doesn't stop God from killing the first born sons (babies, toddlers, children included) of every Egyptian woman during the plagues. It's instances such as this that should be considered as evidence and make people question their belief system. It made me question mine.

That's so funny, as there was a temporary time that I felt that God must not exist. I'll admit it made me feel very bad inside (i.e. hate and anger as you mentioned) - almost like acid eating up the lining of the container that holds it. I realized that I couldn't life with feelings like that.

I felt like that too at one time because I felt like I was lied to my entire childhood, which I came to the conclusion that I was. Everything I thought I knew about the world was flipped upside down. However, these feelings are short-lived and in many cases atheists become happier, kinder, more empathetic and sincere than ever before, after they transition. Unfortunately though, many people share your misconception that living as an atheist means living with perpetual hate and anger towards the world. Just for the record, that's not true at all. This is a dangerous misconception that contributes to the negative connotation of the word atheist.

 

[WhippleWhileWeWork]

Another source of proof (or rather disproof) from the bible that you may consider looking at is its inherent contradictions. There are many instances in the old testament and the new that God, or men of God, act in ways that are clearly against the moral code that he wrote. Is killing the innocent immoral? Of course, but that doesn't stop God from killing the first born sons (babies, toddlers, children included) of every Egyptian woman during the plagues. It's instances such as this that should be considered as evidence and make people question their belief system. It made me question mine.

That's not a contradiction. That's a misunderstanding on your part of the creator -creation distinction. You're declaring innocence based on your measuring stick for it.

 

[AnonymousMed]

No one cares about your belief or lack thereof. As to "no all-knowing, all-powerful, and beneficent being" would not allow there to be great suffering in the world- without pain, you cannot truly understand joy. Without loneliness, you cannot appreciate what it means to have others close to you. Without death, life becomes meaningless. Suffering and pain, whether evolved or designed, are what give us the depth of feelings and emotions that make us fully human and allow us to experience the great highs of life due to the stark contrast provided by its greatest depths.

Religion has been shown to have numerous psychological and health benefits, as well as providing social support structures that are largely absent in the lives of many that do not actively practice religion. A recent study showed that those who attend weekly religious services live seven years longer than those who do not. Active practitioners of religion are less likely to commit crimes, abuse drugs, and are more likely to have finished high school, among other things. Plus people who actively attend religious services are shown to be happier than nonbelievers and those that do believe but do not attend weekly services. I would be wary of judging the beliefs of others, however foolish they may seem to you, for religion, despite all of its flaws, is actually a pretty good thing for people.

Atheists do this weird thing where they seem to be very preoccupied with the religion of others, despite not having one of their own. It's similar to who a lot of conservative Christians seem to be all bent out of shape about the homosexuality of others despite not being homosexual themselves. In six years, only twice did the religion of coworkers ever come up. No one cares. Except, strangely enough, atheists. These conversations were always initiated by atheists- dude, we don't care about your lack of belief, nor do we care what each other believes. What we do when we go home is between us and whatever higher power we do or don't believe in. And I never had a single case of a patient questioning the beliefs of their physicians or caregivers- they've got bigger things to worry about if they're in the hospital than what you do on Sunday morning FFS.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/jeffrey...for-all-of-us-even-those-who-dont-follow-one/

People do care, though. That is the whole point of this discussion. How should you respond as an atheist when patients ask you sincerely if you believe in god, pray, etc?

These "studies" you are referring to without citation sound like bogus, and I can provide plenty of evidence that, on the contrary, religion has been shown to have numerous harmful effects on the psychology and health of individuals and communities as a whole. Where shall we start...Child-abusing catholic priests? The crusades? Suicide bombings?

 

[AnonymousMed]

That's not a contradiction. That's a misunderstanding on your part of the creator -creation distinction. You're declaring innocence based on your measuring stick for it.

Okay, I guess in a sense you're right. I'm declaring innocence based on my subjective belief that a baby cannot be guilty of any crime for which it deserves to be murdered as punishment. One of the ten commandments is "thou shalt not kill", but if you still see this as not being a contradiction in itself, then it is certainly at the very least a contradiction to my own morals (which are not based upon religious doctrines).

 

[WhippleWhileWeWork]

Okay, I guess in a sense you're right. I'm declaring innocence based on my subjective belief that a baby cannot be guilty of any crime for which it deserves to be murdered as punishment. One of the ten commandments is "thou shalt not kill", but if you still see this as not being a contradiction in itself, then it is certainly at the very least a contradiction to my own morals (which are not based upon religious doctrines).

Like all things written outside of our immediate context, we must apply proper hermeneutics to flesh out what the text would have meant to the people it was written to. "Thou shall not kill/murder" was specifically addressing unlawful killing. Clearly it doesn't mean any/all killing because more laws were given that named death as the punishment for breaking said laws. So there is no contradiction just because God kills while telling his people not to kill, because he also tells them to kill. "Unlawful" being the lynch pin of the contradiction, if God finds fault with Egyptian babies, he's free to do that, he's the law giver and judge. Is this distasteful to our modern sensibilities? Sure. That doesn't mean it's a contradiction though and does little to prove or disprove anything about the bible, as I see it.

 

[DrBodacious]

I think it is a bit of a stretch to claim that communities with religion were positively selected for because of religion. Correlation does not imply causation. I would say that communities tightly bound by any factor are more likely to survive. Religion is a tightly binding factor because children are indoctrinated from such a young age, and oftentimes exiled (socially or literally, depending on the place and times) if they choose to reject the beliefs of their community. Fear (in hell, exile, social rejection, etc.) is used as a mechanism to promulgate the religion over time, resulting in tightly bound communities. In this light, however, I do not think that religious beliefs are soundly based...they are simply the product of cultural upbringing.

This is obviously just a hypothesis and one of the the ways I rationalize religion. To me, there has to be some reason why cultures all around the world have developed religion. I think people are wired to want/need religion, and personally I do think natural selection has been present. If not, then I guess God is the one who is installing different religions around the world?

It will take someone smarter than me to prove this is actually causation rather than correlation. In some ways, religion has been an "opiate for the masses," and people that are part of a stable community and able to accept their place in life with a more positive attitude offered by the comforts of religion are more likely to thrive and reproduce, I think. (I am not trying to dis religion, I am just looking at it from an outside perspective. You can not deny after seeing a newborn in the nusery that there are not a number of instinctive behaviors that various organisms have in their DNA, and maybe religion is one of them.)

 

[tdram]

Okay, I guess in a sense you're right. I'm declaring innocence based on my subjective belief that a baby cannot be guilty of any crime for which it deserves to be murdered as punishment. One of the ten commandments is "thou shalt not kill", but if you still see this as not being a contradiction in itself, then it is certainly at the very least a contradiction to my own morals (which are not based upon religious doctrines).

Don't waste your time arguing about the Bible. It's been done to death. The believers will not change their mind, and they don't have to, as long as they don't stand in the way of other people's beliefs or hurt people who don't agree with them. Unfortunately this happens too commonly, as all the conflicts around the world attest to.