APMSA: behind the curtain

[dtrack22]

The APMSA letter was entertaining and contained a few factual inaccuracies. Which is both surprising, and not, given who was behind it. The APMSA has a working adult who really runs the organization from a day to day standpoint. Working with donors, professional podiatry orgs, corporate sponsors, coordinating students meetings/travel, etc. They can have a lot of decision making power within APMSA, at least as much as the current crop of students are willing to give him/her.

Meet Marit Sivertson, JD. Executive director of the APMSA.
See APMSA staff: Staff

I am surprised that an attorney would let such inaccuracies slip through. But I am not surprised that someone with such close ties to ABFAS would orchestrate said letter. She is also executive director of the Minnesota Podiatric Medical Association.

Minnesota Podiatric Medical Association: Staff

This is where ABFAS comes in. Nicole Bauerly, who practices in MN and has been involved with MPMA. She is also the residency director at Hennepin.
ABFAS staff: Staff


In summary: APMSA puts out a letter inaccurately conflating Dr. Rogers SDN contributions with the contributions/claims from the rest of us. Which I find offensive as I feel many of us should have been cited instead. They return money, reducing student educational opportunities even though the majority of students would receive some sort of benefit from said money.


ABFAS is losing their control over many local hospital bylaws and the control they had at the state level in certain places. So they use their ties to the student organization to try and exert whatever power they have left over podiatrists. Ultimately the goal is to make ABFAS a requirement for any of us to practice, increasing membership and therefore revenue. We are such a dumb profession. Any ways, back to my cushy job.

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Members don't see this ad.

 

[Winograd1717]

I think if you want to be cited you need to come out as public as rogers did on here. Don't post anonymously behind "DrFootLover69" if you want to be taken seriously and cited.

 

[Adam Smasher]

The APMSA has a working adult

LOL, rank and file podiatry students well into their 20s aren't considered adults

 

[dtrack22]

LOL, rank and file podiatry students well into their 20s aren't considered adults

“Working adult.” As in someone being paid over $100k to be there. As in a salaried professional, not a student volunteer.

 

[Adam Smasher]

don't walk it back, we know what you meant and it's dead on

 

[Shiyuan]

Can confirm the power of the Exec Dir, when I was in APMSA they held a lot of the power. Politics here at its finest. Them being scared shows ABPM is moving in the right direction 😎👍🏻

 

[dtrack22]

Can confirm the power of the Exec Dir, when I was in APMSA they held a lot of the power. Politics here at its finest. Them being scared shows ABPM is moving in the right direction 😎👍🏻

Correct. Probably the same person I dealt with. Who I liked, but needed to be put in their place (so to speak) when it came to things like the website, official position statements, residency Genesis, student recruitment efforts, etc.

 

[619]

This is some serious forensic investigation that is being uncovered regardless of whichever fence you sit on. Looks like a quid pro quo. It's weird to think the students came out with that perfectly written letter and also turn down $80k.
I mean $80k can help reduce student loans for APMSA members. If you ask APMSA members if they should refund the $80K or use it to pay down the members student loans, I think the answer is obvious.

Hopefully the moderators don't shut this thread down and delete comments.

 

[Weirdy]

Hopefully the moderators don't shut this thread down and delete comments.

Post does not break TOS and all information compiled can be found publicly. No reason to delete or shutdown right now.

Have been following it this morning since it was posted.

Please do not assume we are out to get everyone.

 

[619]

Post does not break TOS and all information compiled can be found publicly. No reason to delete or shutdown right now.

Have been following it this morning since it was posted.

Please do not assume we are out to get everyone

Well can't be too sure. @CutsWithFury was banned for talking too much. I don't always agree with him but I appreciate his contribution. I still take a drink for him. He will always be a soldier

 

[newfeet]

Well can't be too sure. @CutsWithFury was banned for talking too much. I don't always agree with him but I appreciate his contribution. I still take a drink for him. He will always be a soldier

They should un ban him.

 

[dtrack22]

This is some serious forensic investigation that is being uncovered regardless of whichever fence you sit on. Looks like a quid pro quo. It's weird to think the students came out with that perfectly written letter and also turn down $80k.
I mean $80k can help reduce student loans for APMSA members. If you ask APMSA members if they should refund the $80K or use it to pay down the members student loans, I think the answer is obvious.

Hopefully the moderators don't shut this thread down and delete comments.

It’s something ABPM should be thinking about. Purely from a PR standpoint. Go directly to the schools/students and offer scholarship $ with all of that $80k they are getting back. And then remind the students that this won’t be the first time ABFAS screws over a significant portion of them and that even without APMSA support, you will always be there to help them out when you can.

 

[shadesofgrey]

What is the salary for this kind of job? No way it's 100k. Right? How much work does it take to actually run an organization that is a glorified student council.

I’m sure these director positions are far more labor intensive than I imagine them, but there’s no way they command a 6 figure salary.

 

[deleted1138023]

Abfas wants to destroy abpm. it's pretty evident. they are trying to do it at every level. This is clear collusion.

 

[deleted1138023]

also I'll tag them @Official_APMSA

 

[PatchAdamsFan]

What is the salary for this kind of job? No way it's 100k. Right? How much work does it take to actually run an organization that is a glorified student council.

I’m sure these director positions are far more labor intensive than I imagine them, but there’s no way they command a 6 figure salary.

During the few years that I was involved with APMSA, the executive director salary ranged from 80k to just under 100k. It involved a fair amount of work, but when you look at it over the course of the entire year most would consider it a part time position. For all its faults, the APMSA did a lot of good work including (what comes to mind) calling out board pass rate transparency, being a megaphone for student ailments to the deans, and that sweet, sweet ASICS discount. It's discouraging to hear about the conflict of interest raised by @dtrack22 , the students there are usually very bright and generally hold their leadership accountable.

 

[Shiyuan]

Makes you wonder if APMSA members are reading this and just now finding out about this potential COI...

 

[heybrother]

"Dr. Lee Rodgers, President of ABPM, has posted negative, unprofessional, and misleading commentary on the Student Doctor Network".

Except he hasn't. He literally came here to try and provide a more positive impression of the field which he has somewhat accomplished. People have tried to shout him down, he hasn't stopped. He was joined by - no one - in this endeavor even though he reached out to his own membership asking them for help. I can't think of a time where he responded negatively or unkindly to another poster even though people follow him around the forum disliking his posts and mocking him. He constantly offers to help people. He's apparently being regularly contacted by people asking him for help because the membership of this profession is suffering. It is very hard for me to believe that anyone could both write the above and also have read any of Dr. Rodgers' posts.

His professional organization is in a state of detente with the ABFAS. Writing that ABFAS eats their own or whatever he wrote is essentially already the opinion of his organization. Considering that this remark is the only thing I can think of that he has said that could even broach the above its hard not to see in all this APMSA functioning as the mouthpiece and tool of ABFAS. This is a recurring theme in all aspects of APMSAs commentary. ABFAS doesn't like to be challenged and at the heart of each paragraph masquerading as students interests is ABFAS' interests.

"This commentary has caused collective concern and apprehension among our student members about the state of their profession and has jeopardized student recruitment efforts. With the nationwide student recruitment crisis within our profession, our leaders should focus on highlighting the benefits of a career in podiatric medicine and surgery instead of engaging in divisive rhetoric".

Again. There isn't negative commentary coming from Dr. Rodgers. The recruiting crisis was fully in effect before Dr. Rodgers began posting and his commentary was clearly meant to assist with recruiting and combat the perspectives of the regular membership of this forum. You can't blame him for something that came before him. And didn't a prominent podiatrist already blame the recruiting crisis on the professions failed USMLE bid? Who was behind that again. This paragraph above again - between the lines - is simply about ABFAS not wanting to be challenged.

Students should be apprehensive. That is the dominant opinion of the SDN community because job prospects are garbage and tuition is sky high, but it is not Dr. Rodgers perspective in the vast majority of his posts. That said, by coming here he has apparently been contacted by all manner of podiatrists who are suffering. Perhaps if other members of podiatry leadership came down from their towers they might hear the voice of the common pod.

"The ABPM has also commenced litigation that has serious ramifications for the profession. It has done so without regard for the autonomy of state associations, and it intends to continue its pursuit of legal action across the country. The ABPM has touted success in this strategy. However, the tactics employed to date have strained strategic alliances and partnerships. As the future leaders of this profession, we fear the long-term negative consequences that such actions will have at the state and national levels as we begin to practice."

Ask me how I know a lawyer wrote this. Again. ABFAS all over it. Who has been challenged? ABFAS in NY and Oregon attempting to kow tow to orthopedics and gate keep the ankle. Welcome to podiatry where good things can happen for the membership and some leadership organization will oppose it.

"Finally, there is significant and increasing confusion among students regarding ABPM's Certificate of Added Qualification in Podiatric Surgery. The ABPM has promoted this certificate as an alternative pathway to obtaining surgical privileges at hospitals in the future. However, this certificate of Added Qualification is not approved by the Council on Podiatry Medical Education. The ABPM's efforts to circumvent the current standards in place for board certification undermines the students confidence in the reglatory framework of podiatric medicine and surgery".

Students interests are not being impacted by this. ABFAS is being impacted. It is unbelievable though to imagine that CPME would not approve something since they will approve any deadbeat residency that comes along.


I don't agree with a lot of what Dr. Rodgers posts but I know a garbage hit piece when I see one.

@diabeticfootdr

 

[Shiyuan]

... I know a garbage hit piece when I see one.

Samesies. Again, ABFAS is being challenged so "all hands on deck" to fight it off.

 

[wakaflocka88]

Why was Dtracks post edited despite the mod stating it does not violate TOS and is readily available public information?

 

[DexterMorganSK]

Please note: We have received multiple reports about this thread since it was created. After speaking with the other staff, it was decided to edit the personal information and the sentences that seemed like a conversation between two individuals with no objective evidence. Some it seemed mere speculations. A message was also sent to the reporting parties. I appreciate your patience.

 

[Adam Smasher]

I'll repeat what I've said before. Anyone who assumes a position of leadership in podiatry (or anything) makes a choice to become a public figure, so they're all fair targets for commentary.

If this was a political forum I'm allowed to say the president or member of congress is a bum.

If this was a business/investment forum I'm allowed to say any particular CEO is a crook.

But this is a podiatry forum. Free dtrack!

 

[SouthPod7]

I find it absolutely bizarre that the APMSA would even comment on the CAQ in ABPM, much less get so infuriated by its very existence that they would publicly and aggressively disown their relationship with ABPM. I barely understood the board certification process (qualified/certified/CAQ/etc) when I was a resident, much less as a podiatry student. I was more focused on studying for APMLE and clerkships at that time.

 

[icebreaker32]

I find it absolutely bizarre that the APMSA would even comment on the CAQ in ABPM, much less get so infuriated by its very existence that they would publicly and aggressively disown their relationship with ABPM. I barely understood the board certification process (qualified/certified/CAQ/etc) when I was a resident, much less as a podiatry student. I was more focused on studying for APMLE and clerkships at that time.

Yah, but students identify as student foot and ankle surgeons now we have been told. That other board has words like podiatry and medicine in it.

They are not going to be podiatrists with a CAQ in surgery. They are all going to be foot and ankle surgeons.

 

[newfeet]

Yah, but students identify as student foot and ankle surgeons now we have been told. That other board has words like podiatry and medicine in it.

They are not going to be podiatrists with a CAQ in surgery. They are all going to be foot and ankle surgeons.

I will never understand the need to call oneself a student foot and ankle surgeon. you are a podiatric medical student. Calling yourself a medical student makes more sense than student foot and ankle surgeon.

 

[Weirdy]

Well can't be too sure. @CutsWithFury was banned for talking too much. I don't always agree with him but I appreciate his contribution. I still take a drink for him. He will always be a soldier

I went out of my way to plead with him to stay within TOS so he could continue posting on here.
He thought I was choosing sides.
Multiple attempts.

 

[Shiyuan]

I went out of my way to plead with him to stay within TOS so he could continue posting on here.
He thought I was choosing sides.
Multiple attempts.

Yah he really pushed the envelope. Do miss his brutal honesty though 😅

 

[Pronation]

Entrapment! Justice for Cuts!

 

[Weirdy]

I’ll post again. Try not to delete it this time. The reason @619 asked was because he saw coming, exactly what you guys ended up doing.

My original post was so heavily edited that the remaining paragraphs don’t even relate a consistent or coherent thought. It needs to be restored and the individuals who complained (and didn’t bother to post any sort of counter viewpoint) need to be told that if the post doesn’t violate TOS then it won’t be moderated. They are free to use the ignore function or, heaven forbid, contribute to the conversation.

More than happy to talk privately. Both Dexter and I work pretty hard to keep as much raw content on here as possible.

You may not believe that and that's fine. Feel free to let me know what you're really thinking in PM so posts don't get censored here.

 

[deleted1138023]

Free cuts

 

[GreenHousePub]

I will never understand the need to call oneself a student foot and ankle surgeon. you are a podiatric medical student. Calling yourself a medical student makes more sense than student foot and ankle surgeon.

Is that really what they are calling themselves now?

 

[GoSpursGo]

I’ll post again. Try not to delete it this time. The reason @619 asked was because he saw coming, exactly what you guys ended up doing.

My original post was so heavily edited that the remaining paragraphs don’t even relate a consistent or coherent thought. It needs to be restored and the individuals who complained (and didn’t bother to post any sort of counter viewpoint) need to be told that if the post doesn’t violate TOS then it won’t be moderated. They are free to use the ignore function or, heaven forbid, contribute to the conversation.

None of which violates TOS. It doesn’t matter what it looks like to anyone, let alone outsiders. And there is an entire pre-pod thread dedicated to speculation What are my chances? So clearly speculation is perfectly ok on the forums.

For those following the thread, this is the message I got from a moderator regarding the reasoning for editing the original post. Essentially, “some people didn’t like it and so we removed huge portions of it.”

…………


“Hello dtrack22,

We have been receiving many reports about your thread: APMSA: behind the curtain
Most of the reports are saying that the thread is misleading or offensive. However, the staff and I do not believe that, but I would like to edit a few things that may seem like speculation to an outsider. I do not want to close the thread, but I must make some edits. I hope you can see my point of view as an admin.”

I'm going to push back forcefully here. @DexterMorganSK and @Weirdy work very hard, for free, to try and moderate this community which obviously is pretty contentious at the moment. We are clearly getting inundated with a lot of complaints. Some of the decisions to make edits come not from your local mods, but from higher levels of SDN leadership. We are all trying to do what is fair to people who are admittedly in positions of leadership, to not cast SDN in a negative light, and to not completely stifle discussion about important conversations in the field.

So bottom line, please don't be mean to your local moderators. I promise you that nobody is being a stronger advocate for allowing free and open discussion then these two. They are stuck in the middle of all of this, and they are just trying to do their best job, so I request that everyone please be respectful of the job they are doing even if you don't agree with every public decision that is being made.

 

[dtrack22]

I'm going to push back forcefully here. @DexterMorganSK and @Weirdy work very hard, for free, to try and moderate this community which obviously is pretty contentious at the moment. We are clearly getting inundated with a lot of complaints. Some of the decisions to make edits come not from your local mods, but from higher levels of SDN leadership. We are all trying to do what is fair to people who are admittedly in positions of leadership, to not cast SDN in a negative light, and to not completely stifle discussion about important conversations in the field.

So bottom line, please don't be mean to your local moderators. I promise you that nobody is being a stronger advocate for allowing free and open discussion then these two. They are stuck in the middle of all of this, and they are just trying to do their best job, so I request that everyone please be respectful of the job they are doing even if you don't agree with every public decision that is being made.

Well then how about one of you non podiatry mods message me to explain why you forced them to censor posts that do not violate TOS or any laws?

You all like to say things like “we received complaints, we had no choice.” But you do have a choice. First, you should encourage the complainers to engage in discussion. Not one person has refuted anything said in this particular thread. You can also remind them to use the ignore function. You can also tell the complainers “the post does not violate our TOS or the law and therefore no action will be taken. Have a nice day.”

The completely baseless/needless censorship of posts in the podiatry forums has gotten bad in the last few years. If it’s not our local mods then the rest of you SDN staff should be adults and do it yourself and explain your decisions. Don’t make dexter and weirdy do y’alls dirty work. Especially when they don’t agree with it.

 

[GreenHousePub]

The ever waging conflict between the jannies and the users. War, war never changes.

 

[heybrother]

Having posted on a lot of forums through time - moderation always looks cringe/causes problems when

-It isn't acknowledged ie. there is no "edit" or "byline" saying - this post has been modded and by who ie. changes are simply "invisible"
-No attempt is made at communication ie. a global post for everyone or a PM
-The original post is moderated in such a manner that it is now non-sensical/meaningless or its unclear where the edits were made.

Just things I've seen through time. Make of them what you will.

 

[GoSpursGo]

Well then how about one of you non podiatry mods message me to explain why you forced them to censor posts that do not violate TOS or any laws?

You all like to say things like “we received complaints, we had no choice.” But you do have a choice. First, you should encourage the complainers to engage in discussion. Not one person has refuted anything said in this particular thread. You can also remind them to use the ignore function. You can also tell the complainers “the post does not violate our TOS or the law and therefore no action will be taken. Have a nice day.”

The completely baseless/needless censorship of posts in the podiatry forums has gotten bad in the last few years. If it’s not our local mods then the rest of you SDN staff should be adults and do it yourself and explain your decisions. Don’t make dexter and weirdy do y’alls dirty work. Especially when they don’t agree with it.

Of course we have a choice. And you act as if we have not said many of those same things repeatedly to those who complain—we often do exactly that and you never see that on your end. We are doing our best to manage multiple competing interests, but if you fundamentally don’t believe we are acting in good faith then I’m not sure what to tell you to convince you otherwise.

Regardless, if there are lingering concerns or questions you can address them to me via PM. I am unlikely to have much to say beyond what I’ve said here, but continuing this discussion publicly is distracting from the original purpose of the thread. Open dialogue about moderator decisions is always welcome, but downright bashing of our volunteers is not.

 

[josebiwasabi]

I'm not sure what the original purpose of this thread is because the OP was so heavily edited.

 

[dtrack22]

I'm not sure what the original purpose of this thread is because the OP was so heavily edited.

ABFAS is doing work and getting the big wig SDN moderators to censor posts they don’t like.

 

[newfeet]

I'm not sure what the original purpose of this thread is because the OP was so heavily edited.

I think the OP was trying to say the APMSA executive director and the president-elect of the ABFAS are buddy pals and that's the reason the letter from the APMSA was sent out.

 

[MoostashPod]

I used to donate to APMSA to support the students, but with the move they did I will no longer donate to the association. I would rather donate directly to the school for the students that need it.

 

[air bud]

I used to donate to APMSA to support the students, but with the move they did I will no longer donate to the association. I would rather donate directly to the school for the students that need it.

Lol donate it to the school...

 

[Utvolsdpm]

Lol donate it to the school...

Or donate it to your local broke podiatry associate

 

[shadesofgrey]

Yeah I'm not sure I'd donate to the schools. Maybe a scholarship fund.

I visited the APMSA website for the first time today and it lists their partners and what contribution level they are at.

The highest listed Partner is PICA at the 50k level. Then APMA and ABFAS at 25k. Then Bako at 10k.

So they got rid of their largest listed donor to take a stand on this. Pretty wild. I do have to wonder if the loss in revenue will more directly affect student activities or administrative salary?

 

[icebreaker32]

Yeah I'm not sure I'd donate to the schools. Maybe a scholarship fund.

I visited the APMSA website for the first time today and it lists their partners and what contribution level they are at.

The highest listed Partner is PICA at the 50k level. Then APMA and ABFAS at 25k. Then Bako at 10k.

So they got rid of their largest listed donor to take a stand on this. Pretty wild. I do have to wonder if the loss in revenue will more directly affect student activities or administrative salary?

Will be interesting to see if ABFAS makes a.
very large contribution next year

Or will there be a new large ABFAS or ACFAS friendly corporate donor next year?

Or will they have just lost the money forever