ABFAS throws APMSA under the bus

[dtrack22]

For those new to the saga, APMSA returned what is essentially sponsorship money from the ABPM to the tune of $80,000 and announced it in a letter just last week. That letter contained several factual inaccuracies. A post was made detailing the connection between ABFAS and APMSA, aka the APMSA executive director Marit Sivertson, JD. A quick aside, if anyone doubted that my claims were true, then WHY HAS MARIT SIVERTSON'S INFORMATION AND PICTURE BEEN REMOVED FROM BOTH THE APMSA WEBSITE AND THE MINNESOTA PODIATRIC MEDICAL ASSOCIATION WEBSITE? You are all smart folks, you know exactly why that information has been scrubbed from the internet. It's because it was true and they are trying to hide it. Any ways...

ABFAS released the following letter today:

The APMSA letter was ALL the students idea and they had no input from anyone else. Certainly not their executive director or any ABFAS board members...

About that student letter. It made the following claims:

"Dr. Lee Rodgers, President of ABPM, has posted negative, unprofessional, and misleading commentary on the Student Doctor Network"

@heybrother already outlined this part in a thread that was killed. But we all know this is factually incorrect. To the chagrin of many posters here, he has been the biggest podiatry cheerleader on these boards and led the original charge to get practicing docs to come to these forums and tell prospective students how wonderful the profession is. He's the only "leader" who is actively trying to change the messaging on these forums for prospective students. There are no APMA, ABFAS, CPME, APMSA, COTH, etc. representatives anywhere to be found. It has been literally EVERY OTHER poster on these forums who has said that we are saturated with a lousy job market, and that we should be shutting down nearly half of the residency programs in the country and only graduating around 200 students per year.

"The ABPM has also commenced litigation that has serious ramifications for the profession. It has done so without regard for the autonomy of state associations, and it intends to continue its pursuit of legal action across the country."

Also incorrect. No litigation in the state they are talking about was ever made. Not to mention, there is a 0% chance that a single podiatry student in the entire country has knowledge of state licensure or scope proceedings. Not without being educated by someone who has a stake in the outcome of said licensing rules. For those of you unaware, Oregon required ABFAS RRA cert to perform ankle surgery in the state. The state organization was too chicken to follow through with their request to drop that wording from state licensing rules and so the ABPM made the request to the state Medical Board. The real physicians in the state of Oregon and other members of the Medical Board agreed that the language should be dropped, as no other healthcare provider in the state is required to have any particular board certification in order to obtain a license. In fact, allowing ABFAS to dictate who can do what in the state of Oregon actually takes autonomy away from the state and puts it into the hands of a 3rd party organization that the state has no authority over. Again, the students have no idea what they are talking about but there is one organization with a particularly vested interest in keeping the status quo (hint: its ABFAS).

Another aside, in regards to this particular ruling, here is a quote directly from the American Board of Orthopedic Surgery: "A valid medical license is required to be Board Certified, but certification is not necessary for licensure." Someone should tell ABFAS that the real foot and ankle surgeon's specialty board would disagree with their position in the case of Oregon's Podiatry licensing.

"Finally, there is significant and increasing confusion among students regarding ABPM's Certificate of Added Qualification in Podiatric Surgery. The ABPM has promoted this certificate as an alternative pathway to obtaining surgical privileges at hospitals in the future."

Students have no idea what a CAQ is. It does absolutely nothing to circumvent hospital privileging. This is a chicken little, sky is falling, ABFAS talking point that again was fed to students (and Feli). As much as ABPM may be proud of their CAQs, they don't actually do anything. Other than generate revenue and let some podiatrist put another useless line on their CV. There is nothing to be confused about if you just ignore the meaningless certificate.

I've also never seen an ABPM publication that claims that any CAQ is "an alternative pathway to obtaining surgical privileges at hospitals in the future." I know that either Marit or Nicole are reading this so how about you sign up and post that evidence for me? Oh wait, you didn't help write this, so maybe an APMSA BOT member will do so? They have clearly seen the evidence of this happening since they made the claim all by themselves without input from anyone else


I don't believe these people one bit...

But if we assume their letter is true, then they are telling us that the APMSA came up with all of these factually incorrect positions/beliefs/opinions on their own. And said beliefs led to podiatry students across the country losing out on $80,000 that could have gone to educational opportunities, scholarships, etc. That’s not a great look for APMSA…

Look, I'll be the first one to admit how dumb of a profession we are. But our "leadership" must think we are really really dumb. Nice try ABFAS.

P.S. This post will get "reported" to moderators. Again. There is nothing in this post that violates TOS. Everything posted is public information that anyone in the profession can see on the internet, social media, or has sitting in their inbox right now. I would still save this or quote reply while you can. For prosperity, as it will be heavily edited, deleted, or locked soon.

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[MoostashPod]

For those new to the saga, APMSA returned what is essentially sponsorship money from the ABPM to the tune of $80,000 and announced it in a letter just last week. That letter contained several factual inaccuracies. A post was made detailing the connection between ABFAS and APMSA, aka the APMSA executive director Marit Sivertson, JD. A quick aside, if anyone doubted that my claims were true, then WHY HAS MARIT SIVERTSON'S INFORMATION AND PICTURE BEEN REMOVED FROM BOTH THE APMSA WEBSITE AND THE MINNESOTA PODIATRIC MEDICAL ASSOCIATION WEBSITE? You are all smart folks, you know exactly why that information has been scrubbed from the internet. It's because it was true and they are trying to hide it. Any ways...

ABFAS released the following letter today:
View attachment 370099

The APMSA letter was ALL the students idea and they had no input from anyone else. Certainly not their executive director or any ABFAS board members...

About that student letter. It made the following claims:

"Dr. Lee Rodgers, President of ABPM, has posted negative, unprofessional, and misleading commentary on the Student Doctor Network"

@heybrother already outlined this part in a thread that was killed. But we all know this is factually incorrect. To the chagrin of many posters here, he has been the biggest podiatry cheerleader on these boards and led the original charge to get practicing docs to come to these forums and tell prospective students how wonderful the profession is. He's the only "leader" who is actively trying to change the messaging on these forums for prospective students. There are no APMA, ABFAS, CPME, APMSA, COTH, etc. representatives anywhere to be found. It has been literally EVERY OTHER poster on these forums who has said that we are saturated with a lousy job market, and that we should be shutting down nearly half of the residency programs in the country and only graduating around 200 students per year.

"The ABPM has also commenced litigation that has serious ramifications for the profession. It has done so without regard for the autonomy of state associations, and it intends to continue its pursuit of legal action across the country."

Also incorrect. No litigation in the state they are talking about was ever made. Not to mention, there is a 0% chance that a single podiatry student in the entire country has knowledge of state licensure or scope proceedings. Not without being educated by someone who has a stake in the outcome of said licensing rules. For those of you unaware, Oregon required ABFAS RRA cert to perform ankle surgery in the state. The state organization was too chicken to follow through with their request to drop that wording from state licensing rules and so the ABPM made the request to the state Medical Board. The real physicians in the state of Oregon and other members of the Medical Board agreed that the language should be dropped, as no other healthcare provider in the state is required to have any particular board certification in order to obtain a license. In fact, allowing ABFAS to dictate who can do what in the state of Oregon actually takes autonomy away from the state and puts it into the hands of a 3rd party organization that the state has no authority over. Again, the students have no idea what they are talking about but there is one organization with a particularly vested interest in keeping the status quo (hint: its ABFAS).

Another aside, in regards to this particular ruling, here is a quote directly from the American Board of Orthopedic Surgery: "A valid medical license is required to be Board Certified, but certification is not necessary for licensure." Someone should tell ABFAS that the real foot and ankle surgeon's specialty board would disagree with their position in the case of Oregon's Podiatry licensing.

"Finally, there is significant and increasing confusion among students regarding ABPM's Certificate of Added Qualification in Podiatric Surgery. The ABPM has promoted this certificate as an alternative pathway to obtaining surgical privileges at hospitals in the future."

Students have no idea what a CAQ is. It does absolutely nothing to circumvent hospital privileging. This is a chicken little, sky is falling, ABFAS talking point that again was fed to students (and Feli). As much as ABPM may be proud of their CAQs, they don't actually do anything. Other than generate revenue and let some podiatrist put another useless line on their CV. There is nothing to be confused about if you just ignore the meaningless certificate.

I've also never seen an ABPM publication that claims that any CAQ is "an alternative pathway to obtaining surgical privileges at hospitals in the future." I know that either Marit or Nicole are reading this so how about you sign up and post that evidence for me? Oh wait, you didn't help write this, so maybe an APMSA BOT member will do so? They have clearly seen the evidence of this happening since they made the claim all by themselves without input from anyone else


I don't believe these people one bit...
View attachment 370100

But if we assume their letter is true, then they are telling us that the APMSA came up with all of these factually incorrect positions/beliefs/opinions on their own. And said beliefs led to podiatry students across the country losing out on $80,000 that could have gone to educational opportunities, scholarships, etc. That’s not a great look for APMSA…

Look, I'll be the first one to admit how dumb of a profession we are. But our "leadership" must think we are really really dumb. Nice try ABFAS.

P.S. This post will get "reported" to moderators. Again. There is nothing in this post that violates TOS. Everything posted is public information that anyone in the profession can see on the internet, social media, or has sitting in their inbox right now. I would still save this or quote reply while you can. For prosperity, as it will be heavily edited, deleted, or locked soon.

It's a silly game they're playing and everyone can see it a mile away. Ridiculous. Thank you for the wonderful post. Hats to you.

 

[Pronation]

Them:

Us:

 

[Shiyuan]

The politics of this profession is maddening. Like a bunch of kids arguing over a Tonka truck on the school yard. Im so sick of ABFAS.

And I 100% agree that the students did not come up with that letter (I was in APMSA at one point btw)... They’re more worried about passing boards and how to not cut someone’s skin when trimming nails in the denizens of the school clinic, not about ABPM.

 

[icebreaker32]

Podiatry…….a profession that deals with toenails, feet and occasionally ankles and gives an endless supply of material for memes.

 

[Bored Snorlax]

 

[newfeet]

I've said it before but I'll say it again

ABPM must offer a chance for graduating pgy3's to obtain certification with their exam. this way they can compete more directly with ABFAS right away instead of waiting for residents to fail ABFAS.

Also they need to change their name to ABPS

Pretty sure ABFAS still owns the board name ABPS.

 

[Adam Smasher]

Hopefully I'm not the only person who noticed that @diabeticfootdr has been awfully quiet since the APMSA stupidity began. Someone must have told him he's doing more harm than good.

Shame. While I disagreed strenuously on much of his positions, he kept this forum interesting. Even if his position on job market saturation is misguided, we're just an echo chamber without his counterpoints.

 

[icebreaker32]

Hopefully I'm not the only person who noticed that @diabeticfootdr has been awfully quiet since the APMSA stupidity began. Someone must have told him he's doing more harm than good.

Shame. While I disagreed strenuously on much of his positions, he kept this forum interesting. Even if his position on job market saturation is misguided, we're just an echo chamber without his counterpoints.

Was thinking the same thing.

Not sure we are just an echo chamber though. Was he more optimistic or was what he saying a calculated effort to bring interest to ABPM and potentially to pre pods also? It seems he did bring more interest to ABPM even if he is less active on here going forward.

 

[Poddy2Hotty]

I've said it before but I'll say it again

ABPM must offer a chance for graduating pgy3's to obtain certification with their exam. this way they can compete more directly with ABFAS right away instead of waiting for residents to fail ABFAS.

Also they need to change their name to ABPS

As much as many of you hate ABFAS...

If you walked into a hospital with a broken ankle and there were 2 pods exactly the same in training and years of experience, but one was ABFAS and one was ABPM I'm sure 99% of you would choose the ABFAS podiatrist (just a more rigorous vetting process).

Why not try to fix the root cause (OVERSATURATION/offer more options and education to obtain ABFAS cert) instead of lower the standards so everyone wins a prize?

Fixing the root cause would require new blood in leadership and is a tall order. To unwind or close 2-4 schools would be a monumental feat and I don't have any other suggestion except maybe some of us on SDN should step away from the keyboard and run for leadership positions to mix things up. This would be a huge labor of love and not everyone has the time and resources to pursue this. A handful of the regulars (Feli, Dyk, Cuts, Dtrack, AirBud etc) on here have strong vision/understanding and would make excellent leaders in our field.

While bringing this information out of SDN is helpful for opening up dialogue there is a limit to what can be done/changed from SDN only.

Putting this out there...just food for thought.

 

[Shiyuan]

As much as many of you hate ABFAS...

If you walked into a hospital with a broken ankle and there were 2 pods exactly the same in training and years of experience, but one was ABFAS and one was ABPM I'm sure 99% of you would choose the ABFAS podiatrist (just a more rigorous vetting process).

Why not try to fix the root cause (OVERSATURATION/offer more options and education to obtain ABFAS cert) instead of lower the standards so everyone wins a prize?

Fixing the root cause would require new blood in leadership and is a tall order. To unwind or close 2-4 schools would be a monumental feat and I don't have any other suggestion except maybe some of us on SDN should step away from the keyboard and run for leadership positions to mix things up. This would be a huge labor of love and not everyone has the time and resources to pursue this. A handful of the regulars (Feli, Dyk, Cuts, Dtrack, AirBud etc) on here have strong vision/understanding and would make excellent leaders in our field.

While bringing this information out of SDN is helpful for opening up dialogue there is a limit to what can be done/changed from SDN only.

Putting this out there...just food for thought.

I’ll run for janitor at LECOM’s nail jail 🙂

But all kidding aside, great point... it would take much altruism to be a leader in this field to move things the right way.

 

[newfeet]

As much as many of you hate ABFAS...

If you walked into a hospital with a broken ankle and there were 2 pods exactly the same in training and years of experience, but one was ABFAS and one was ABPM I'm sure 99% of you would choose the ABFAS podiatrist (just a more rigorous vetting process).

Why not try to fix the root cause (OVERSATURATION/offer more options and education to obtain ABFAS cert) instead of lower the standards so everyone wins a prize?

Fixing the root cause would require new blood in leadership and is a tall order. To unwind or close 2-4 schools would be a monumental feat and I don't have any other suggestion except maybe some of us on SDN should step away from the keyboard and run for leadership positions to mix things up. This would be a huge labor of love and not everyone has the time and resources to pursue this. A handful of the regulars (Feli, Dyk, Cuts, Dtrack, AirBud etc) on here have strong vision/understanding and would make excellent leaders in our field.

While bringing this information out of SDN is helpful for opening up dialogue there is a limit to what can be done/changed from SDN only.

Putting this out there...just food for thought.

I will be part of the 1%. Board certification adds no value to the doctor from my point of view. Maybe you are right that fixing the residencies and education is the way to go. I dont give two bits about the boards.

 

[HardRoadPaved]

There are a handful of surgical patients I lose after consultation not because of "board certification" status but their friend/family urges them to see real doctor "ortho" instead

 

[GreenHousePub]

There are a handful of surgical patients I lose after consultation not because of "board certification" status but their friend/family urges them to see real doctor "ortho" instead

I couldn't care less about this. I'm busy enough to even remember anyone I see. If they don't come back it doesn't even register for me.

 

[Pronation]

Can someone show some examples of ABPM only cert pods that do actual foot and ankle fracture care regularly?

 

[Boba Foot]

If you walked into a hospital with a broken ankle and there were 2 pods exactly the same in training and years of experience, but one was ABFAS and one was ABPM I'm sure 99% of you would choose the ABFAS podiatrist

Joke’s on you, I’d choose an Ortho.

Also ABFAS does very little to judge surgical outcomes. I’ve seen just as many boneheads with FACFAS after their name as without.

 

[DPM TRUTH]

This question was posted:

If you walked into a hospital with a broken ankle and there were 2 pods exactly the same in training and years of experience, but one was ABFAS and one was ABPM I'm sure 99% of you would choose the ABFAS podiatrist (just a more rigorous vetting process).

You must give us more information before we can answer this question. Is the ABFAS trained podiatrst:
A. Grandfathered in without taking any board exam (abfas members prior to 1991)
B. Grandfathered in via "the alternative method" - where they did not have to complete a surgical residency (late 90's to around 2000)
B. Did they past the exam & case review post 2012

After decades in the profession, if a family member walked in with a broken ankle I would call my wife, who is a foot and ankle orthopedic surgeon. The foot and ankle boards have not changed their rules based on when you graduated like the abfas has over the last 3 decades. There is no one grandfathered into the ortho boards (unlike some abfas diplomats) There is no one boarded by ortho, who never did a surgical residency (unlike some abfas diplomats).

 

[deleted1138023]

why is abfas so scared of the word “podiatry”?

 

[BubbaWub]

Joke’s on you, I’d choose an Ortho.

Also ABFAS does very little to judge surgical outcomes. I’ve seen just as many boneheads with FACFAS after their name as without.

This 100%. The most I would let a podiatrist do for myself or a loved one is trim toenails or a bunionectomy.

 

[Boba Foot]

This 100%. The most I would let a podiatrist do for myself or a loved one is trim toenails or a bunionectomy.

I wouldn’t go that far…

I’d recommend good pods for flatfoot recon, etc too. Ortho don’t seem to understand principles behind most foot deformities, just lower extremity fractures and lateral ankle stabilization. Even still, I scrubbed into one ortho case in residency in which the doc put a giant ass plate on for a mildly displaced hallux fracture. Sometimes the dumb ortho jock stereotype holds true.

 

[Pronation]

Sometimes the dumb ortho jock stereotype holds true.

Every profession has duds but you’re also talking about folks who generally graduated at the top of their med school class…

 

[air bud]

This question was posted:

If you walked into a hospital with a broken ankle and there were 2 pods exactly the same in training and years of experience, but one was ABFAS and one was ABPM I'm sure 99% of you would choose the ABFAS podiatrist (just a more rigorous vetting process).

You must give us more information before we can answer this question. Is the ABFAS trained podiatrst:
A. Grandfathered in without taking any board exam (abfas members prior to 1991)
B. Grandfathered in via "the alternative method" - where they did not have to complete a surgical residency (late 90's to around 2000)
B. Did they past the exam & case review post 2012

After decades in the profession, if a family member walked in with a broken ankle I would call my wife, who is a foot and ankle orthopedic surgeon. The foot and ankle boards have not changed their rules based on when you graduated like the abfas has over the last 3 decades. There is no one grandfathered into the ortho boards (unlike some abfas diplomats) There is no one boarded by ortho, who never did a surgical residency (unlike some abfas diplomats).

You love your grandfathered argument....you can keep beating that dead horse. At some point soon that will run its course. We are focused on the future.

 

[ChartingChad]

As much as many of you hate ABFAS...

If you walked into a hospital with a broken ankle and there were 2 pods exactly the same in training and years of experience, but one was ABFAS and one was ABPM I'm sure 99% of you would choose the ABFAS podiatrist (just a more rigorous vetting process).

Why not try to fix the root cause (OVERSATURATION/offer more options and education to obtain ABFAS cert) instead of lower the standards so everyone wins a prize?

Fixing the root cause would require new blood in leadership and is a tall order. To unwind or close 2-4 schools would be a monumental feat and I don't have any other suggestion except maybe some of us on SDN should step away from the keyboard and run for leadership positions to mix things up. This would be a huge labor of love and not everyone has the time and resources to pursue this. A handful of the regulars (Feli, Dyk, Cuts, Dtrack, AirBud etc) on here have strong vision/understanding and would make excellent leaders in our field.

While bringing this information out of SDN is helpful for opening up dialogue there is a limit to what can be done/changed from SDN only.

Putting this out there...just food for thought.

What would cause podiatry schools to close other than they become unprofitable?

There used to be a blog called "Inside the Law School Scam" written by a law professor named Paul Campos. He started the blog due to feeling guilty that he was training law students who would graduate with substantially too much debt to justify their (usually poor) job prospects. He argued tons of law schools were opening up because law schools were so profitable and easy to operate, and for this reason many law schools were willing to take just about anyone with a pulse to get that tuition money. Regardless of how likely they were to pass the bar exam or ever be offered a job as a practicing lawyer.

Paul Campos got a lot of hate for his blog, mostly by people whose jobs depended on the status quo (i.e. law school faculty and administrators). Towards the end of his blog (about 10 years ago) a few law schools started closing. The only reason they did this was because they were no longer profitable. Prospective students simply thought law school was no longer worth the cost of admission. Not because a group of leaders examined and took control of the situation and realized it wasn't a good idea to let someone with a bottom 10% LSAT score go to law school for $200K+ debt. I do not think it'd be wise to assume podiatry schools will be any different.

You mention you think bringing out this information on SDN is going to have a limited effect. But the effect seems to be large and concerning enough to justify organizations sending me several emails to me about the rowdy bunch on SDN.

 

[ExperiencedDPM]

I’m not sure if this is accurate, but I heard that several ABPM board members and possibly the exec resigned. Can anyone confirm that or is it bs?

 

[Poddy2Hotty]

This 100%. The most I would let a podiatrist do for myself or a loved one is trim toenails or a bunionectomy.

Love this mentality!!! If only we could get more of us to see the world through your eyes!!!

I'm doing about 50 too many ankle fractures a year...need to get back to my pod roots.

Is there a CPT code for application of leg lotion???



To everyone on here push the envelope. This is the only way to increase scope and push for more rights and privileges. Yes nothing is perfect and there needs to be more unification. 100% for shedding light on our problems and addressing them constructively.


Need to get rid of this incel-like thought process. Its quite sad frankly.

 

[Utvolsdpm]

Hopefully I'm not the only person who noticed that @diabeticfootdr has been awfully quiet since the APMSA stupidity began. Someone must have told him he's doing more harm than good.

Shame. While I disagreed strenuously on much of his positions, he kept this forum interesting. Even if his position on job market saturation is misguided, we're just an echo chamber without his counterpoints.

They did send him that cease and desist letter per the ABFAS update

 

[newfeet]

Joke’s on you, I’d choose an Ortho.

Also ABFAS does very little to judge surgical outcomes. I’ve seen just as many boneheads with FACFAS after their name as without.

Yea I would probably pick ortho too.

I’m not sure if this is accurate, but I heard that several ABPM board members and possibly the exec resigned. Can anyone confirm that or is it bs?

the executive director resign there was an email yesterday or the day before. I don't know about other members.

 

[Utvolsdpm]

I’m not sure if this is accurate, but I heard that several ABPM board members and possibly the exec resigned. Can anyone confirm that or is it bs?

Got an email yesterday that one of them resigned. Didn’t recognize the name.

 

[newfeet]

Got an email yesterday that one of them resigned. Didn’t recognize the name.

don't say the name... there might be another press release from the APMA or ABPM or something else.

 

[icebreaker32]

You mention you think bringing out this information on SDN is going to have a limited effect. But the effect seems to be large and concerning enough to justify organizations sending me several emails to me about the rowdy bunch on SDN.

They know SDN gets web traffic and studens talk about it.

The schools have no idea though what the exact cause of applications being down is. When it happens they blame internet sites and try to have an outreach push from alumni.

Can't say I blame them from a business point of view. If the reason is more that don't get into medical school are going to PA school they can not catch those. They can just hope the fewer that apply don't get scared off from the internet and are encouraged from alumni.

Now ABFAS/ABPM tension has been building for awhile, but now that the students got involved it has turned into a hot mess and has been made more visible by SDN.

 

[Pronation]

don't say the name... there might be another press release from the APMA or ABPM or something else.

Agree, this could result in them condemning the post.

 

[dtrack22]

Can someone show some examples of ABPM only cert pods that do actual foot and ankle fracture care regularly?

[raises hand]

Though I am eligible for ABFAS. Passed all exams first try. Just bounced around PP Podiatry practices out of residency and haven’t sat for case review. I likely have more/better trauma training than most of the people who post here. I do foot and ankle trauma regularly still, but because of overall patient/encounter volume I’m sure there are plenty of folks who now do more ankle fractures (for example) than I do. Where I work, I would operate on my own talus, calc, ankle, achilles, etc. if I could before going to local orthopedic surgeons. I’m generally good at what I do, but I guess despite years of experience doing these procedures, ABFAS would have you believe that if I don’t get their piece of paper, I should lose the ability to do these procedures. It’s all meaningless BS to protect revenue sources. Follow the $

I’m not sure if this is accurate, but I heard that several ABPM board members and possibly the exec resigned. Can anyone confirm that or is it bs?

Just heard that the executive director resigned. They said it was to move back home, but no idea if that’s true. I find it odd that you can’t be an executive director of an organization from anywhere in the country in 2023. Makes me think there is something more to it, but that was the excuse. ABPM offices are in CA, ED wanted to move back to (I’m assuming) the Carolinas

 

[Pronation]

[raises hand]

Though I am eligible for ABFAS. Passed all exams first try. Just bounced around PP Podiatry practices out of residency and haven’t sat for case review. I likely have more/better trauma training than most of the people who post here. I do foot and ankle trauma regularly still, but because of overall patient/encounter volume I’m sure there are plenty of folks who now do more ankle fractures (for example) than I do. Where I work, I would operate on my own talus, calc, ankle, achilles, etc. if I could before going to local orthopedic surgeons. I’m generally good at what I do, but I guess despite years of experience doing these procedures, ABFAS would have you believe that if I don’t get their piece of paper, I should lose the ability to do these procedures. It’s all meaningless BS to protect revenue sources. Follow the $



Just heard that the executive director resigned. They said it was to move back home, but no idea if that’s true. I find it odd that you can’t be an executive director of an organization from anywhere in the country in 2023. Makes me think there is something more to it, but that was the excuse. ABPM offices are in CA, ED wanted to move back to (I’m assuming) the Carolinas

I guess I should have clarified ABPM only and not eligible for ABFAS cert. I presume you are planning on eventually getting your ABFAS cert

 

[newfeet]

[raises hand]

Though I am eligible for ABFAS. Passed all exams first try. Just bounced around PP Podiatry practices out of residency and haven’t sat for case review. I likely have more/better trauma training than most of the people who post here. I do foot and ankle trauma regularly still, but because of overall patient/encounter volume I’m sure there are plenty of folks who now do more ankle fractures (for example) than I do. Where I work, I would operate on my own talus, calc, ankle, achilles, etc. if I could before going to local orthopedic surgeons. I’m generally good at what I do, but I guess despite years of experience doing these procedures, ABFAS would have you believe that if I don’t get their piece of paper, I should lose the ability to do these procedures. It’s all meaningless BS to protect revenue sources. Follow the $



Just heard that the executive director resigned. They said it was to move back home, but no idea if that’s true. I find it odd that you can’t be an executive director of an organization from anywhere in the country in 2023. Makes me think there is something more to it, but that was the excuse. ABPM offices are in CA, ED wanted to move back to (I’m assuming) the Carolinas

ACPM lets you do it from wherever though they would prefer California.

 

[Poddy2Hotty]

This question was posted:

If you walked into a hospital with a broken ankle and there were 2 pods exactly the same in training and years of experience, but one was ABFAS and one was ABPM I'm sure 99% of you would choose the ABFAS podiatrist (just a more rigorous vetting process).

You must give us more information before we can answer this question. Is the ABFAS trained podiatrst:
A. Grandfathered in without taking any board exam (abfas members prior to 1991)
B. Grandfathered in via "the alternative method" - where they did not have to complete a surgical residency (late 90's to around 2000)
B. Did they past the exam & case review post 2012

After decades in the profession, if a family member walked in with a broken ankle I would call my wife, who is a foot and ankle orthopedic surgeon. The foot and ankle boards have not changed their rules based on when you graduated like the abfas has over the last 3 decades. There is no one grandfathered into the ortho boards (unlike some abfas diplomats) There is no one boarded by ortho, who never did a surgical residency (unlike some abfas diplomats).

Airbud hit the nail on the head
"You love your grandfathered argument....you can keep beating that dead horse. At some point soon that will run its course. We are focused on the future."

Dinosaurs will die.

Ortho was not an option for that hypothetical question. You have 2 options (can say most modern ABFAS cert 2012 on).

You have a unique viewpoint due to your dynamic. Would be interesting to know what your wife thought pod scope should be and what you think pod scope should be.

 

[RollingstonePod]

I’m not sure if this is accurate, but I heard that several ABPM board members and possibly the exec resigned. Can anyone confirm that or is it bs?

My understanding is the ED resigned a couple days ago. Yesterday, the ABPM board had a vote of "no confidence" in the current president which did not pass because it needed to be a unanimous vote. Several ABPM board members then resigned.

 

[Shiyuan]

My understanding is the ED resigned a couple days ago. Yesterday, the ABPM board had a vote of "no confidence" in the current president which did not pass because it needed to be a unanimous vote. Several ABPM board members then resigned.

Wow. Because how Dr. Rodgers made it sound was the executive team had his back in the “Podiatry Forward” stuff.

 

[deleted1138023]

Dr. Rodgers is fighting a huge empire in ABFAS. they are trying to take him down from the inside it seems. To people not privy on what actually happens on here it may seem like ABFAS/APMSA is correct in that he is posting recklessly on the internet. however, it's clearly not true as mentioned by @dtrack22 in the OP. In short, They're trying to take down dr. Rodgers because he is a real game changer and a threat to the current status quo.

I hope ABPM remains united in their quest in representing those who are not afraid of the word podiatry. ABPM wishes for podiatrists to have hospital privileges everywhere. ABFAS real goal is only for podiatrists to have hospital privileges if they're ABFAS certified.. hence making our whole education come down to the little games they want us to play in... it's sad.

 

[newfeet]

My understanding is the ED resigned a couple days ago. Yesterday, the ABPM board had a vote of "no confidence" in the current president which did not pass because it needed to be a unanimous vote. Several ABPM board members then resigned.

Game of Thrones: Podiatry Edition....

 

[podgal2003]

I’m not sure if this is accurate, but I heard that several ABPM board members and possibly the exec resigned. Can anyone confirm that or is it bs?

correct. all you have to do is look at ABPM's website to confirm it yourself. Six people are no longer pictured on their board of directors page.

 

[shadesofgrey]

It amazes me that these organizations keep thinking the best response is to write a organization wide email decrying and demanding that a anonymous internet forum behave. Someone is being paid a lot of money to run these organizations and this is their best option? To write these letters? I don't know who is in charge of their PR but chalk this up as a fail. So to ABFAS, APMA, APMSA, etc, let me save you some money and grief and explain the proper response:

1st option) Take the high road, don't get pulled into the mud. This is probably the best option. Just ignore the anonymous internet forum and accept the fact that you can't win this fight sending emails. Realize that the emails you send out refreshes and strengthens our fury. The outrage grows bigger with each response because your letter doesn't acknowledge what we think is the problem. Yes it's frustrating not to respond, but lick your wounds in private and comfort yourself with the fact that this forum has a relatively short attention span and in a few weeks we will begin complaining about the cost of lapiplasty again.

2nd option) This is the more painful and perhaps risky option. Basically commit to the process and come down into the mud with us. Interact and argue with us. If you make good points and stick around long enough, you might change some opinions or at least lower the vitriol. Case in point is Dr. Rogers, who though not universally beloved, did hang around and seemed to change the majority's stance regarding ABPM here on SDN. However, realize you will be mocked and ridiculed for some time, until the group realizes you ain't going away. If you leave early, we will continue to mock you (see Dr. Richie). Bonus, you don't even have to reveal your identity, you could create a username called ABFAS-FANBOY and no one would know who your are while you argue your points.

3rd and worst option) Write an email to every member of your organization, blaming SDN. Be sure to not answer any of the complaints that SDN mentions. Also it is very important to bring up the student recruitment crisis and point out that SDN is solely responsible for this. Rest assured our complaining will stop if you write enough letters telling us to because we respect your authority, and I can almost guarantee that it won't increase the number of posters who seem to dislike your organization.

 

[dtrack22]

I guess I should have clarified ABPM only and not eligible for ABFAS cert. I presume you are planning on eventually getting your ABFAS cert

Not necessarily. Probably not. I haven’t logged in two years. I’m really too lazy to do so. I live where I want to live, I practice the way I want to practice, I get paid well for how much (or how little, really) I work, and I don’t need ABFAS any more to keep my privileges. I can do TARs with ABPM. My hospital sure as hell doesn’t care about me getting additional certification because I make them money, patients and other hospital employees like me, and I’m semi-local so they know I’m unlikely to go anywhere. I’m set for the remaining 15-20 years I need to work before retirement. I really have no need for their certification. And if that was the case for more DPMs, a lot more folks would be just like me. Many would still be scared into getting ABFAS, but an increasing number of people would not. This is exactly what terrifies ABFAS. Sure, some truly believe that their gate keeping function is absolutely necessary, and they have a very altruistic mindset. But overall, as an organization it’s really about revenue from membership dues.

Like most others, I’m all for shutting down schools/residencies and reducing graduates while improving the consistency of training. But that isn’t happening. Board certification in medicine should die. Whichever organization helps speed up that process is a-ok with me.

 

[Bored Snorlax]

As a student I fully support Dr. Rodgers. I don’t agree with all of his ideas, but I believe he truly cares about podiatry and wants to improve this profession for future generations. For example, he cares enough to address problems in podiatry by being transparent and answering questions on these forum, despite numerous attacks against him. There are obviously many interest groups involved in this, but I hope at the end of the day everyone can work together and do what is best for podiatry so we can be proud of our profession and serve our patients wholeheartedly.

Do what is right for podiatry, not what is easy. Growth requires bold ideas and changes. We can’t be stuck in the past and expect different results and outcomes.

ABFAS and ABPM should open a dialogue immediately for the good of podiatry. Now is the time for unity.

 

[Shiyuan]

Lockwood, Roth, DeLauro, Napolitano and Parthasarathy no longer listed (based off looking at wayback machine).

 

[Feli]

Got an email yesterday that one of them resigned. Didn’t recognize the name.

Resigning DPM is a former APMA president... many other exec positions in podiatry orgs also, residency attending, etc. Not a no-namer by any means. I met him in person as a student and found him inspirational and well-spoken.

I emailed him this year asking him when LCR was done and to state that I wasn't happy with the email, social media, SDN, etc antics this year by "ABPM" but basically by Rogers. He had a professional response and made it clear others had had issue with those things also...

People act like LCR's cowboy stuff has 100% support. It does not. In the end, it's selfish. Many others on their exec board have resigned in short order also. It does damage to what was an up-and-coming org to take an "us-against-everyone" strategy... just because he himself never passed ABFAS (ABPS).

I’m not sure if this is accurate, but I heard that several ABPM board members and possibly the exec resigned. Can anyone confirm that or is it bs?

Sure. This was sent yesterday:

Wow. Because how Dr. Rodgers made it sound was the executive team had his back in the “Podiatry Forward” stuff.

They don't. At all. Some might, but it's mainly a smokescreen to add teeth to his own ideas.
That is what any delusional megalomaniacs with an old vendetta would say, though.

If you know LCR's history, you know how he operates. There is a long history of havoc in various places. Long.
I have posted this repeatedly: a lot of the many things signed by him are not consensus opinions. They are personal grudges.
He is "positive" about things that benefit him.

...I am indifferent, but I would not be unhappy with PM apology from some ppl here (including mods here, for buying into the LCR nonsense and freezing my account for month or putting a strike on it for calling him out and pointing to his many past contradictions and pot-stirring). @CutsWithFury could probably be changed from ban to final warning since most of his back-breakers were falling for LCR's baiting attempts also?

Lockwood, Roth, DeLauro, Napolitano and Parthasarathy no longer listed (based off looking at wayback machine).

Most of the few ABPM directors remaining also have their bio taken down.
Yes, huge cluster ---k... I should probably request refund or put stop pay on my ABPM renew while I still can.
Hmm. Then again, I am getting rich-ish, so there's that.

 

[newfeet]

When does the abpm president term end? It seems ridiculous to just quit when dude is on his way out either way.

 

[Feli]

When does the abpm president term end? It seems ridiculous to just quit when dude is on his way out either way.

He has damaged their organization irreparably.

He is out this summer (hence his increasing desperate reaches for his agenda he hatched years ago by beginning with non-threatening CAQs)...

"01/26/23

Dr. [Feli];

Thank you for contacting ABPM regarding the solicitation requesting comments on CPME recognition of fellowships. The ABPM Board of Directors are interested and responsive to communication received from our Diplomates. Your opinion does matter to us and will be taken into consideration.

To answer your question, Dr. Rogers’s term as president of ABPM expires in July of this year.

[now resigned]
Executive Director
American Board of Podiatric Medicine
[[[
]]]
1060 Aviation Boulevard, Suite 100
Hermosa Beach, CA 90254"

 

[Feli]

As a student I fully support Dr. Rodgers. I don’t agree with all of his ideas, but I believe he truly cares about podiatry ...

Swampland sale rep on line 1 for you.

 

[newfeet]

He has damaged their organization irreparably.

He is out this summer (hence his increasing desperate reaches for his agenda he hatched years ago by beginning with non-threatening CAQs)...

"01/26/23

Dr. [Feli];

Thank you for contacting ABPM regarding the solicitation requesting comments on CPME recognition of fellowships. The ABPM Board of Directors are interested and responsive to communication received from our Diplomates. Your opinion does matter to us and will be taken into consideration.

To answer your question, Dr. Rogers’s term as president of ABPM expires in July of this year.

[now resigned]
Executive Director
American Board of Podiatric Medicine
[[[
]]]
1060 Aviation Boulevard, Suite 100
Hermosa Beach, CA 90254"

They shouldn’t have resigned. I know as a past president he will still be around. It seems punkish. The next president needs a team.

 

[Feli]

They shouldn’t have resigned. I know as a past president he will still be around. It seems punkish. The next president needs a team.

That is WHY they resigned. It is very simple: many people don't like Dr. Rodgers.
They don't like his style, don't agree with him, know he is salty over old wounds, power hungry, they have been stated as backing/supporting him when he was flying a solo path to crazytown, etc.

I obviously can't go into specifics - even things that are public knowledge - since I was suspended on SDN earlier this year for alluding to past events involving him or his past SDN posts. Suffice to say, there are a lot of people that don't speak to LCR and/or who have been in conflict with him... former colleagues, former attendings, classmates, SDN mods, SDN users, me, CutsWithFury, etc etc etc. Some people get sick of the BS. It's a looong list.

This CAQ stuff is nothing new. Predictable ending.

Dr. Rodgers is fighting a huge empire in ABFAS. they are trying to take him down from the inside it seems. To people not privy on what actually happens on here it may seem like ABFAS/APMSA is correct ...

Incorrect. You are overthinking it. See above.

Anyone can be quite charming and convincing when they are looking to settle an old score, gain power the want, sell something, promote things that give their own job security and esteem, etc. He is definitely not unintelligent, but also not showing his real motives and goals either.

And, I hate to say it, but students and residents who have no idea of someone's past or people who can't pass the other board are the easiest low-hanging fruit to pitch the "people's champ" and "savoir of the broken" ideas to. We live, we learn.