ABFAS throws APMSA under the bus

[newfeet]

That is WHY they resigned. It is very simple: many people don't like Dr. Rodgers.
They don't like his style, don't agree with him, know he is salty over old wounds, power hungry, they have been stated as backing/supporting him when he was flying a solo path to crazytown, etc.

I obviously can't go into specifics - even things that are public knowledge - since I was suspended on SDN earlier this year for alluding to past events involving him or his past SDN posts. Suffice to say, there are a lot of people that don't speak to LCR or who have been in conflict with him... former colleagues, former attendings, classmates, SDN mods, SDN users, me, CutsWithFury, etc etc etc. It's a looong list.

This CAQ stuff is nothing new. Predictable ending.


Incorrect. You are overthinking it. See above.

Anyone can be quite charming and convincing when they are looking to settle an old score, gain power the want, sell something, promote things that give their own job security and esteem, etc.
And, I hate to say it, but students and residents who have no idea of someone's past or people who can't pass the other board are the easiest low-hanging fruit to pitch the "people's champ" and "savoir of the broken" ideas to. We live, we learn.

He can try to put in an executive director he likes and new board members he likes. Maybe it’s the principle of the thing

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[podgal2003]

They shouldn’t have resigned. I know as a past president he will still be around. It seems punkish. The next president needs a team.

Yes it does require a team. It is my outside understanding that 6 people representing 5 voting members left. This leaves 6 people and 5 voting members. It could very well been quite strategic. They don’t have a quorum to do anything. They need 8 voting members to conduct business, any business, according to their bylaws. I could be wrong. What say you Lee? How is my board conducting business these days?

 

[ExperiencedDPM]

correct. all you have to do is look at ABPM's website to confirm it yourself. Six people are no longer pictured on their board of directors page.

I am not a member of the ACPM and wouldn’t know if someone was missing from their board and was unaware I can access their exec board.

 

[podgal2003]

I am not a member of the ACPM and wouldn’t know if someone was missing from their board and was unaware I can access their exec board.

I’m not a member of ACPM either. The ABPM website has a public facing page that shows who is currently left on the board.

 

[msion]

Thought I was gonna check back in on SDN when I received the ABFAS email about this matter. Didn't know things escalated this quickly since last time I logged in.

I am still all for ABPM on this. If someone has issues with their hospital bylaws or credentialing issues, ABPM can be a very helpful resource. Say having their own lawyer reviewing your case and send letters to med staff admins.
ABPM is not perfect, but it's helpful. I feel the $$$ I pay may potentially bring me some benefits. Where as APMA or ABFAS/ACFAS are just total waste of money. I definitely don't need another coding course from APMA. And I honestly don't know how my ABFAS dues are helping me other than telling me what to use/not to use when advertise my credentials. As for ACFAS, I get better educational content for free on Orthobullets.

I don't live in Oregon, but lately what happened with the Oregon Medical Board was a good example of the above.

But I still wish we can let all the mustache pods retire, and then freeze graduating new pods for a good 20 years.

Lately I have been thinking what would happen if we randomly pick 100 pods and ship them off to a random island. I think they will build 2 hut houses: one labeled ABPM and the other ABFAS. The ABPM hut is just a giant room with bunk beds. The ABFAS will be divided into 4 sections: the lowly board qualified live together and have to serve the board certified; foot certified get their own rooms and rearfoot certified get their own private baths; the last section is for grandfathers and they live on the second story of the hut house with the best views.
Somehow in the mix the APMSA delegates were also there, and they need to empty the potty for the grandfathers. Some delegates want to go live in the ABPM hut house but are denied entry due to the termination of the partnership.

 

[Bored Snorlax]

Swampland sale rep on line 1 for you.

What solution would you suggest? bc the alternative is keeping the same status quo and making endless memes about the profession.

 

[air bud]

What solution would you suggest? bc the alternative is keeping the same status quo and making endless memes about the profession.

I can help with this last part.

 

[Adam Smasher]

A handful of the regulars (Feli, Dyk, Cuts, Dtrack, AirBud etc) on here have strong vision/understanding and would make excellent leaders in our field

If drafted, I will not run; if nominated, I will not accept; if elected, I will not serve.

 

[podgal2003]

Thought I was gonna check back in on SDN when I received the ABFAS email about this matter. Didn't know things escalated this quickly since last time I logged in.

I am still all for ABPM on this. If someone has issues with their hospital bylaws or credentialing issues, ABPM can be a very helpful resource. Say having their own lawyer reviewing your case and send letters to med staff admins.
ABPM is not perfect, but it's helpful. I feel the $$$ I pay may potentially bring me some benefits. Where as APMA or ABFAS/ACFAS are just total waste of money. I definitely don't need another coding course from APMA. And I honestly don't know how my ABFAS dues are helping me other than telling me what to use/not to use when advertise my credentials. As for ACFAS, I get better educational content for free on Orthobullets.

I don't live in Oregon, but lately what happened with the Oregon Medical Board was a good example of the above.

But I still wish we can let all the mustache pods retire, and then freeze graduating new pods for a good 20 years.

Lately I have been thinking what would happen if we randomly pick 100 pods and ship them off to a random island. I think they will build 2 hut houses: one labeled ABPM and the other ABFAS. The ABPM hut is just a giant room with bunk beds. The ABFAS will be divided into 4 sections: the lowly board qualified live together and have to serve the board certified; foot certified get their own rooms and rearfoot certified get their own private baths; the last section is for grandfathers and they live on the second story of the hut house with the best views.
Somehow in the mix the APMSA delegates were also there, and they need to empty the potty for the grandfathers. Some delegates want to go live in the ABPM hut house but are denied entry due to the termination of the partnership.

My version of your scenario above involves 100 random pods who work together rather than continue the current narrative.

 

[Feli]

What solution would you suggest? bc the alternative is keeping the same status quo and making endless memes about the profession.

Same as it ever was: education... and supply and demand.

The to-do list:

1. Close bad residencies. Lower spots at subpar ones. There are many. Bring fellowship attendings and their cases back into the good residencies.
2. Pod schools have to scale back without residency spots, so they can actually be somewhat selective of student talent. That is a good thing for attrition, student board pass, etc. Close under-performing or just plain excess schools/seats.
3. Quit (forever) making schools/grads when there is not demand for DPM services and demand from students and surplus GOOD residency slots in place. We have been doing that for decades now.

Nothing is perfect. Major side effects of eliminating huge numbers of school grads and bad residencies include:
Saturation and infighting and under-training of DPMs decreases significantly.
Competence and demand of average DPM increase significantly over time.
Fellowships will become unnecessary if standard training and job market is good.
Income and training/competence and board pass will take care of themselves.
Hospital HR and even MSGs or PPs won't have to field 100+ applications within a week.
Multiple boards will likely go away with truly standardized training and universally good/great programs.
Bickering and limiting one another's privileges and litigation among DPMs will drop drastically.
Grads will be too buys sorting quality job offers or working to gripe much on SDN.
Attending DPMs won't be checking Indeed, job boards daily because their income is half of MD surgeon counterparts.
Pre-health will see the income and demand for DPM (if it is cultivated) and, like MD or DVM, actually be attracted.

So, yeah... solutions. Those be them. ^
It's not anything new... it's just getting out of the chiro/pharma course of opening schools left and right... and more into emulating successful MD specialities that get high quality people and steer them to great training and high demand after (ortho, derm, uro, etc etc). It's nothing new.

...in other news, Abpm board of directors is now down to LCR and one other now (profiles scrubbed, bios erased). I guess she is president in July? I am stop payment-ing my renewal if the org folds or loses its accreditation over the CAQ hocus.

 

[Shiyuan]

ABPM won’t “fold” or lose accreditation status for adding CAQs... 😒

 

[newfeet]

Same as it ever was: education... and supply and demand.

The to-do list:

1. Close bad residencies. Lower spots at subpar ones. There are many. Bring fellowship attendings and their cases back into the good residencies.
2. Pod schools have to scale back without residency spots, so they can actually be somewhat selective of student talent. That is a good thing for attrition, student board pass, etc. Close under-performing or just plain excess schools/seats.
3. Quit (forever) making schools/grads when there is not demand for DPM services and demand from students and surplus GOOD residency slots in place. We have been doing that for decades now.

Nothing is perfect. Major side effects of eliminating huge numbers of school grads and bad residencies include:
Saturation and infighting and under-training of DPMs decreases significantly.
Competence and demand of average DPM increase significantly over time.
Fellowships will become unnecessary if standard training and job market is good.
Income and training/competence and board pass will take care of themselves.
Hospital HR and even MSGs or PPs won't have to field 100+ applications within a week.
Multiple boards will likely go away with truly standardized training and universally good/great programs.
Bickering and limiting one another's privileges and litigation among DPMs will drop drastically.
Grads will be too buys sorting quality job offers or working to gripe much on SDN.
Attending DPMs won't be checking Indeed, job boards daily because their income is half of MD surgeon counterparts.
Pre-health will see the income and demand for DPM (if it is cultivated) and, like MD or DVM, actually be attracted.

So, yeah... solutions. Those be them. ^
It's not anything new... it's just getting out of the chiro/pharma course of opening schools left and right... and more into emulating successful MD specialities that get high quality people and steer them to great training and high demand after (ortho, derm, uro, etc etc). It's nothing new.

...in other news, Abpm board of directors is now down to LCR and one other now (profiles scrubbed, bios erased). I guess she is president in July? I am stop payment-ing my renewal if the org folds or loses its accreditation over the CAQ hocus.

I am glad I went to podiatry school and graduated when I did. I picked my residency specifically because it wasn’t hardcore. A lot of those changes would have stopped me from applying because I was less interested in surgery than most of my class mates and applicants. A huge selling point for me was surgery was an option not a requirement.

 

[podgal2003]

Same as it ever was: education... and supply and demand.

The to-do list:

1. Close bad residencies. Lower spots at subpar ones. There are many. Bring fellowship attendings and their cases back into the good residencies.
2. Pod schools have to scale back without residency spots, so they can actually be somewhat selective of student talent. That is a good thing for attrition, student board pass, etc. Close under-performing or just plain excess schools/seats.
3. Quit (forever) making schools/grads when there is not demand for DPM services and demand from students and surplus GOOD residency slots in place. We have been doing that for decades now.

Nothing is perfect. Major side effects of eliminating huge numbers of school grads and bad residencies include:
Saturation and infighting and under-training of DPMs decreases significantly.
Competence and demand of average DPM increase significantly over time.
Fellowships will become unnecessary if standard training and job market is good.
Income and training/competence and board pass will take care of themselves.
Hospital HR and even MSGs or PPs won't have to field 100+ applications within a week.
Multiple boards will likely go away with truly standardized training and universally good/great programs.
Bickering and limiting one another's privileges and litigation among DPMs will drop drastically.
Grads will be too buys sorting quality job offers or working to gripe much on SDN.
Attending DPMs won't be checking Indeed, job boards daily because their income is half of MD surgeon counterparts.
Pre-health will see the income and demand for DPM (if it is cultivated) and, like MD or DVM, actually be attracted.

So, yeah... solutions. Those be them. ^
It's not anything new... it's just getting out of the chiro/pharma course of opening schools left and right... and more into emulating successful MD specialities that get high quality people and steer them to great training and high demand after (ortho, derm, uro, etc etc). It's nothing new.

...in other news, Abpm board of directors is now down to LCR and one other now (profiles scrubbed, bios erased). I guess she is president in July? I am stop payment-ing my renewal if the org folds or loses its accreditation over the CAQ hocus.

Why don’t you get yourself in a position of influence? It’s easy to have all the answers on an anonymous forum where you aren’t accountable for decisions or part of the conversation at the table. We need people who have all the answers in the room.

 

[Feli]

Why don’t you get yourself in a position of influence? It’s easy to have all the answers on an anonymous forum where you aren’t accountable for decisions or part of the conversation at the table. We need people who have all the answers in the room.

Sometimes you win by not playing... hospital politics, national politics, definitely podiatry politics, SDN politics.
Podiatry orgs are largely corrupt and self-serving and most are - at minimum - way behind the times, and we all know this.
If we don't, open up Podiaty Today or go to an APMA meeting. Lol.
There is no other way to explain expanding schools, keeping hogwash residencies open, letting admissions standards fester, etc.

Mainily, I am already in a position of influence... by being successful, conversing on here, PM convos, text convos, enriching the lives of my pts and employees and referring docs, donating to my community, etc. I am fine having cool surgery boarded for next week and next month etc, giving my employees a raise this week despite frigid economy, donating to local charity, going home to a fun and cute partner, etc. That and being on course for fairly early retirement is plenty for me. I'm not really a take-over-the-world type like Lee or some DPMs.

I am fine being involved with resident training, and I was for a decade...
But there are none near me now (I doubt they'd drive 2-3hrs for a small case block q2w... I wouldn't).

 

[Feli]

The saga continues...

Replacements in (much) less than a week. No elections... all appointed. Not shocking (since some SDN members were offered BOD).
Only one of them is even ABFAS BQ (resigners were over half BC)... most from NY.
I wonder more than one of them have even 5 years in practice?
Perhaps Billie Eilish will be appointed exec director replacement on Monday?

Yes it does require a team. It is my outside understanding that 6 people representing 5 voting members left. This leaves 6 people and 5 voting members. It could very well been quite strategic. They don’t have a quorum to do anything. They need 8 voting members to conduct business, any business, according to their bylaws. I could be wrong. What say you Lee? How is my board conducting business these days?

Ding ding ding.... rapid replacements for BOD (all appointed, not elected) to that end.

Time keeps on tickin tickin on pushing the prez agenda... but I'm sure he'll change/remove term limits soon?
I don't even know what sort of bylaws allow for such a rapid BOD replace with no membership input??
But hey, I'm not the prez... or a member once they process my refund for renew and MOC. Rogers ran into a mountain of money for interesting reason in residency, but I still will take my $1k or whatever it is back at this point.

As if the CAQ surgery was not enough, this complete overhaul of BOD with puppets is really making a joke of ABPM and showing us LCR was FOS on having the board support for the CAQ surgery, ABFAS jabs, SDN smearing, etc. I'm out.

 

[podgal2003]

The saga continues...

Replacements in (much) less than a week. No elections... all appointed. Not shocking.
Only one is even ABFAS BQ (resigners were over half BC)... most from NY.
I wonder more than one of them have even 5 years in practice?
Perhaps Billie Eilish will be appointed exec director replacement on Monday?

View attachment 370202


Ding ding ding.... rapid replacements (appointed, not elected) to that end.

This does not set well…

 

[Shiyuan]

We’ll see how things play out I suppose... 🤷🏻‍♂️

 

[heybrother]

Fascinating. I don't think the positions being filled by appointment should be a surprise - they couldn't reach quorum without members.

I think the real question is - what will whatever election that occurs look like in the future?

For example - https://www.abpmed.org/files/ABPM-Nominations-2021-Napolitano.pdf?v=1617404013

I'm selecting her profile at random. This is Dr. Napolitano. I have never met her and have no connection to her. She is one of the podiatrists who stepped down. She, as indicated, appears to have had experience with many forms of podiatry leadership through her hospital, residency, ABPM. If you read her personal statement - the simple truth is its very non-specific and in general simply positive. We're great, continue the good things.

So what happens in the next round. Do people who attempt to run for office in the future indicate they want to...
-"return to historic norms"
-"repair bridges"
-"oppose the antagonistic course leadership has taken"

as a way of signaling their opposition to the current course? Who will these people be - ABFAS/ABPM dual boarded pods?

I don't know. Presumably the people who were appointed will attempt to be elected to the positions they currently hold.

Stacking the deck with people who support the course obviously increases polarization. The people who left obviously sent a powerful message though I can't help but wonder would they have been more powerful staying and voicing opposition through their votes?

Anyway. A week ago I was going to say "Why does Feli think he knows so much about ABPM's leadership" but apparently he did. Is he in another group that gossips about podiatry?

 

[DancerPod]

Hi all,
Bylaws allow for appointment during a vacancy, but only for the amount of time remaining in the position that was vacated.
So with numerous vacancies comes numerous appointments. Not ideal, but temporary until elections occur in normal fashion.

Yes, I'm one of them, no, not a puppet. I've been a member of ABPM for awhile, helped develop a couple of the CAQs, and actually believe in what we've been doing to a large degree. When this happened, and I was asked, I accepted. ABPM has helped me with my hospital when I needed it, I'll return the favor gladly. Time will tell whether I want to continue and run, or just act as a stop gap until elections.

😁 Yes, I'm real. No, not a lot of posts from me, I didn't grow up with social media and I've never been able to sustain any interest in it.
Happy to answer what I can, depending on if I think it's appropriate for me to answer.

 

[Feli]

....I'm one of them, no, not a puppet. ...

Hmmm.

... ABPM has helped me with my hospital when I needed it, I'll return the favor gladly. ...

Why did you need help?

 

[DancerPod]

Oh, one other thing. No, not board qualified at ABFAS. Didn't fail, just never took the exam. Did well on the ITE, but that doesn't matter because they didn't count for much then.
ABFAS doesn't represent me. I've always hated bunions, loved wound care, pursued a Fellowship in wound and work in that area almost entirely. I never even considered the other board because I knew I'd never get the numbers. No desire, not my practice. Being forced into it isn't acceptable to me either though. Why should I do a variety of bunions to get my numbers, when I've hated them since residency and don't have them in my practice? Is that even fair to the patients? "I don't want to do this scarf on you, but I need the numbers." But at some hospitals, if I don't jump through those hoops, I can't work in the OR, even on cases I've done hundreds, if not thousands of times.
Things need to change to serve ALL Podiatrists, that includes those that love complex surgery, and those that like gas gangrene and filleted toe flap closures.
[Steps off soapbox]

 

[DYK343]

Oh, one other thing. No, not board qualified at ABFAS. Didn't fail, just never took the exam. Did well on the ITE, but that doesn't matter because they didn't count for much then.
ABFAS doesn't represent me. I've always hated bunions, loved wound care, pursued a Fellowship in wound and work in that area almost entirely. I never even considered the other board because I knew I'd never get the numbers. No desire, not my practice. Being forced into it isn't acceptable to me either though. Why should I do a variety of bunions to get my numbers, when I've hated them since residency and don't have them in my practice? Is that even fair to the patients? "I don't want to do this scarf on you, but I need the numbers." But at some hospitals, if I don't jump through those hoops, I can't work in the OR, even on cases I've done hundreds, if not thousands of times.
Things need to change to serve ALL Podiatrists, that includes those that love complex surgery, and those that like gas gangrene and filleted toe flap closures.
[Steps off soapbox]

Great post. Youre comfortable in your practice and thats all that matters.

 

[Boba Foot]

@Feli we all complain about old mustache pods here… probably rightfully so. But now we have 6 new board members of ABPM who appear to have a mean age of 40 and all you can do is **** on them because two of them practice in NY and most don’t have the same sheet of paper and didn’t pass the same tests you did. Do we want people in leadership who better represent our demographics and better know the obstacles young pods are facing, or don’t we?

 

[dtrack22]

Great post. Youre comfortable in your practice and thats all that matters.

But isn’t that the problem? At worst, ABFAS as an organization would argue that she shouldn’t get surgical privileges. At minimum, ABFAS certified podiatrists would lobby for changes to hospital and ASC bylaws to weaponize ABFAS cert and prevent her from getting surgical privileges.

ABFAS is flawed for a number of reasons, but the only people who could change it are those with the certification and none of them want to. Once you have the certification there is no incentive to change anything about the process. Instead, the solution is to fight tooth and nail to make their certification necessary for all of us to practice. Or at least to get surgical privileges anywhere. That’s their goal.

Therefore the only way to change ABFAS, unfortunately, is to make their certification less necessary and therefore reduce their membership/revenue. It’s competition. Podiatry pissing matches if you will. And if you think that is detrimental to the profession (ABPM trying to gain market share), then you should probably lobby to ABFAS to do something about their certification process. I’ve already detailed how easy it would be to make a surgical certification that is fair and adequately rigorous/stringent, where more DPMs could pass and practice within the scope of their training, but hacks could still be weeded out. But it will never happen. There is still this weird elitist attitude with that organization. I think it stems from the crop of DPMs who were some of the first group to have 3 year training at high volume surgical programs but see themselves as better than their peers who either did 1 or 2 year programs. It’s also many of the folks who were the first wave of DPMs getting jobs with orthopedic groups. They think they are better than you, even though often times their training was no better, probably inferior in many cases. They were the first podiatrists calling themselves “Foot and Ankle Surgeons,” even though they are podiatrists just like all of us. And while they are slowly being replaced by younger providers on committees and on the board itself, the younger ones aren’t much better. Why would they be? I mean they got their cert and if you can’t, then you shouldn’t be doing the same surgical procedures they are. They are better than you.

didn’t pass the same tests you did

He’s still sitting for ABFAS cert lol. He’s mad an organization followed its bylaws. Actually it’s not even that. He hates LCR. That’s all his posts re: ABPM boil down to. He’s smart but somehow bought into the “CAQ is a backdoor to surgical privileges” gaslighting. Even if that was the secret intent (I choose to believe it was simply another revenue stream), it still doesn’t matter because that’s not how privileging works. People who don’t like the CAQ should just ignore it because it’s meaningless. Kinda like when someone who spent two weeks doing coke with Brad puts “dermatopathology fellowship” on their CV. It doesn't affect you in the least, so who cares?

 

[Feli]

@Feli we all complain about old mustache pods here… probably rightfully so. But now we have 6 new board members of ABPM who appear to have a mean age of 40 and all you can do is **** on them because two of them practice in NY and most don’t have the same sheet of paper and didn’t pass the same tests you did. Do we want people in leadership who better represent our demographics and better know the obstacles young pods are facing, or don’t we?

I think we are falling into the trap of "if A is not ideal, then B is the hero."
That's how ppl get duped in USA presidential politics, etc.
It's binary and overly simplistic thinking.

ABFAS and ABPM were never the same thing. They were a lot different. Different purposes, both recognized pod boards, coexisting fine.
A few years ago, all of that started to change (behind the scenes), and it came to a head last year. It was clearly a path drawn years ago, though.

So now, we are saying, "if A isn't perfect, then I like B. Die A, die!!!"
Well, no... A can be imperfect and B can be completely crazy. That's an option too.

We have to look at the facts: if your whole city council, local hospital board of MDs, corporate board of a major company, etc abruptly resigned on the leader/prez/CEO, you wouldn't question that??? Heck yeah.
You wouldn't expect nominations for replacements? Member vote? Special election? Explanation? Hearing? Meetings? Outside oversight?
Instead, with ABPM in the past week, we just have new people plopped in (basically by the president +/- maaaybe one remaining BOD), and it's all done almost immediately as the prez's time is drawing thin. A new BOD install for a legit organization is NOT done by putting cronies and inexperienced ppl in literally overnight.

ABPOPPM was a fairly low profile but harmless org for decades. Recently, ABPM was an organization on the come-up, and now it's a joke with the CAQ surgery and conflict within and outside the org in 2022-23. So yes, I requested my dues refunded, membership suspended until a president change.

...and, like dtrack said, I'm not ABFAS cert (BQ Foot + RRA). I have passed all of their tests (both old and new versions), but I have scattered cases from various jobs. I delayed case review awhile due to job changes and then failed last year (mostly points lost were for not enough pre-op eval on cases sent to me by IHS colleauges). I know it's passable, though. The current ABFAS prez is an alum of my same residency, and 2/4 of my co-residents are RRA cert (they both stuck at their first job 5+ years largely for ABFAS and did BC back when it was f2f for case reviews). Our program has probably a 95-99% pass rate on the BQ coming out of training. Maybe 80+% of the alumni go on to get Foot cert and 50% get RRA BC because some don't do those cases or who knows. Regardless, it's all quite passable.
I suppose I personally have every reason to not like ABFAS if my cases/documentation are rejected again this coming month; it will be very hard for me to chase down cases again since most are locked at past jobs. At this point, BC honestly doesn't affect me since I'm an owner now and have the privileges I need and do the cases and get good outcomes... but of course I still want to be cert for the most appropriate board for what I do, which is obviously ABFAS.

...The thinking that because one is frustrated with ABFAS or failed ABFAS that ABPM is automatically the savior or should take over surgical aspects of podiatry gatekeeping is highly flawed. That sentiment is exactly the picture LCR was trying to paint by throwing barbs at ABFAS and offering the CAQ surgery... "the enemy of your enemy is your friend." Well, right now, the ABPM is a complete dumpster fire, and that's too bad. They will have trouble even making their own core exam, much less CAQs, with the mass exodus and the massive animosity and heat LCR drummed up.
Ask yourself why the BOD walked out on him.
Ask yourself why ABPM membership had zero input on who the replacement BOD for the ABPM would be.
Again, if this was any school board or state congress or police department or whatever, it'd be viewed as corrupt and reckless.

I do hope ABPM becomes respectable and focused once again. It will take much time and tactful damage control to repair 2022-23.

 

[Shiyuan]

We on SDN complain about podiatry (not the job itself but the job market/politics) day-in and day-out, making recommendations and how to better improve our field. Big changes to the profession can be scary.

Sounds to me like ABPM is trying to make positive big changes. Some on here are quick to being pessimistic and imagining the worst possible scenarios.

 

[Feli]

We on SDN complain about podiatry (not the job itself but the job market/politics) day-in and day-out, making recommendations and how to better improve our field. Big changes to the profession can be scary.

Sounds to me like ABPM is trying to make positive big changes. Some on here are quick to being pessimistic and imagining the worst possible scenarios.

What is your logic? What do you envision?

How is 7 or 8 people walking out on one or two firebrands a "big positive change"?
Is the one or two in the right and the outgoing were all corrupt? They couldn't handle the "improve our field"?
Why is no membership input or vote or nomination or call for comments held for replacement BOD?

That's your membership $ at work. Scary indeed.

 

[newfeet]

We on SDN complain about podiatry (not the job itself but the job market/politics) day-in and day-out, making recommendations and how to better improve our field. Big changes to the profession can be scary.

Sounds to me like ABPM is trying to make positive big changes. Some on here are quick to being pessimistic and imagining the worst possible scenarios.

I don’t expect any change. ABPM is the medicine board even with the CAQ. It’s a similar thing to the ASPS allowing ABPM with surgical privileges be fellows. It’s just something to put on your CV and web site. It won’t help with jobs or salaries.

 

[Shiyuan]

What is your logic? What do you envision?

How is 7 or 8 people walking out on one or two firebrands a "big positive change"?
Is the one or two in the right and the outgoing were all corrupt? They couldn't handle the "improve our field"?
Why is no membership input or vote or nomination or call for comments held for replacement BOD?

That's your membership $ at work. Scary indeed.

To answer your last point, sounds like the ABPM bylaws made it happen.

Sounds to me you’ve been out to discredit/destroy LCR (ABPM maybe to some degree?) since he’s been on these forums? I commend your support of ABFAS/ACFAS, but jeez.

 

[Shiyuan]

I don’t expect any change. ABPM is the medicine board even with the CAQ. It’s a similar thing to the ASPS allowing ABPM with surgical privileges be fellows. It’s just something to put on your CV and web site. It won’t help with jobs or salaries.

If it was up to me, I would get rid of both boards and make one unified board. Otherwise, this self-destructive podiatry pissing match will never end.

 

[newfeet]

If it was up to me, I would get rid of both boards and make one unified board. Otherwise, this self-destructive podiatry pissing match will never end.

I don’t see how that happens. What do you call it American Board of Podiatry?!? Then offer surgical and non surgical certs? At this point of my career I’m not taking another exam for board.

 

[msion]

If it was up to me, I would get rid of both boards and make one unified board. Otherwise, this self-destructive podiatry pissing match will never end.

We just need to shrink our profession from 16k plus podiatrists to maybe 6k. Then I am sure there won't be that many organizations around.

 

[newfeet]

We just need to shrink our profession from 16k plus podiatrists to maybe 6k. Then I am sure there won't be that many organizations around.

The organizations provide CME I think a lot of them would make if the boards are unified. And they can be used to show specialization that the boards don’t allow. Peds, sports, etc.

 

[Shiyuan]

I don’t see how that happens. What do you call it American Board of Podiatry?!? Then offer surgical and non surgical certs? At this point of my career I’m not taking another exam for board.

The Fantasyland answer: I’m sure there would be a way to grandfather in previously board-certified docs from ABPM or ABFAS.

 

[dtrack22]

I don’t see how that happens. What do you call it American Board of Podiatry?!? Then offer surgical and non surgical certs? At this point of my career I’m not taking another exam for board.

There doesn’t even need to be separate certs. Podiatry includes surgery. Hospitals don’t give you privileges based on your board cert (other than when Podiatrists have violated CMS regs and required ABFAS at their facilities to keep other podiatrists out). If you didn’t do ankle fractures in residency a hospital is not going to (or at least not required to) give you those privileges regardless of your board cert. And for everyone worried about people with inadequate training doing procedures they shouldn’t, there are already mechanisms in place at every ASC and Hospital in the country to stop that from happening. You report bad work/poor outcomes to the medical executive committee and the individual in question has their work reviewed. If found to be poor quality or not up to standard of care, then those privileges get revoked. At minimum they will require proctoring to regain them. You also have to re-credential every few years. So if you have certain privileges (like ankle fusions, straight out of residency) and you aren’t doing those cases in practices then, again, those privileges can and will be revoked. All of this happens at the facility level regardless of ABFAS, ABPM, even ABOS. Yes, orthopedic surgeons get privileges suspended or revoked.

The gate keeping function that some of you think makes ABFAS “necessary” already exists within every single Hospital and ASC in the country. It is one of the worst arguments for ABFAS. It’s literally a “problem” or “issue” that ABFAS has made up to make their cert necessary. A lot like certain government functions, create a problem that only you can fix…

We could easily have one board with appropriately difficult exams, reasonable case review process, high pass rates, and there would be zero changes to “patient safety.” And then the only reason for an ABPM or whatever secondary boards want to exist would be for those 2-3% of DPMs who need some sort of certification to get on commercial insurance panels just to work in a clinic-only setting. You don’t even need any type of board cert to bust crumblies in nursing homes so those folks are fine regardless.

 

[Feli]

Very good post overall. Podiatry is already specialized and limited. It's a joke to have multiple boards or CAQs or even Foot/RRA.

We need better and more uniform training.

... We could easily have one board with appropriately difficult exams, reasonable case review process, high pass rates, and there would be zero changes to “patient safety.”

I think this will be the major tripping point ^
Any DPM needs to learn it all, and they can decide what they want in practice afterwards.
Until we can get the residencies much more standardized (and admissions improved), the DPM exam pass rates will be highly variable among programs and persons. We all know we have junk toenail + wound '3 year surgical' DPM residency programs that barely do a bunion, and we have other programs with dozens of hindfoot fusions and TARs or 100+ ankle fx ORIFs... plus maybe a superfluous fellowship after.

I agree, though. The boards part is easy. It needs work.

The residency training (and pod school admissions) part is the the elephant in the room.

Podiatry is a specialty, though. It's foot and ankle. It involves surgery, or at minimum, surgical indications.
The above saying "I've always hated bunions" is only kidding themself. They never learned it.
There is no reason to fill out a podiatry school application if one is truly averse to nails, ingrowns, bunions, hammertoes, wound, heel pain. There is just not a workaround there. Those things will be encountered in school, residency, exams, and in practice.

There is just no OB who doesn't know STDs or Ortho who gets squeamish with radius fx or Endo who refuses thyroid patients because they weren't taught that. None. They are trained for it all, they took exams for it all, in at least a basic sense. And yeah, there are the rare surgeons that don't do OR or IM that don't see some common pathologies, but still, in general, others in the medical community - and the public - know what to expect from them. That would be the goal for DPMs one day.

 

[ExperiencedDPM]

Incredible that the ABPM was able to replace 6 board members almost over night.

They couldn’t possibly have been nominated and elected that quickly. Does that make the entire process of selecting board members a sham? Were they handpicked “yes men/women”.

Enlighten me since I’m perplexed and would be happy to hear an explanation.

And some of the new board members look as if they haven’t reached puberty yet.

 

[Shiyuan]

Incredible that the ABPM was able to replace 6 board members almost over night.

They couldn’t possibly have been nominated and elected that quickly. Does that make the entire process of selecting board members a sham? Were they handpicked “yes men/women”.

Enlighten me since I’m perplexed and would be happy to hear an explanation.

And some of the new board members look as if they haven’t reached puberty yet.

It’s a bylaws thing... the president can select/nominate a new Board member, then it’s just up to him/her to accept.

Keep in mind they are only there until the end of the term, which I believe for all 6 is July 2023. Then new ones will be elected. (Anyone can feel free to correct me if i’m wrong)

 

[GreenHousePub]

Bring fellowship attendings and their cases back into the good residencies.

lol
MUST BE FELLOWSHIP TRAINED FOOT AND ANKLE SURGEON. NO PODIATRISTS.

 

[podgal2003]

Incredible that the ABPM was able to replace 6 board members almost over night.

They couldn’t possibly have been nominated and elected that quickly. Does that make the entire process of selecting board members a sham? Were they handpicked “yes men/women”.

Enlighten me since I’m perplexed and would be happy to hear an explanation.

And some of the new board members look as if they haven’t reached puberty yet.

Appointed until the end of the term for the member that replaced. Then the voting should happen. Looks like they reached out to pods who they helped and maybe kinda owe them allegiance?? They’ll go along with the leaders at first because they truly are on board with the plan. When they see behind the curtain and they don’t like what it being shoved down their throat, it’ll get ugly. When their opinions and suggestions aren’t even listened to or considered or heaven help them they go against the leader, they will be black balled. They’ll become disillusioned and bitter because they are motivated and have ideas and deserve to be part of the plan forward, not just a means to an end. Yes they’re young but If they wait it out and reasonable people get into place, they’ll have developed knowledge and experience to do amazing things. People like Lee feed off people like this and he only needs them in place for a short period of time.

 

[dtrack22]

Ortho who gets squeamish with radius fx

Obviously top to bottom ortho is more consistent but if you haven’t worked around many orthos doing locums work, then it would make sense to give ortho a little more credit (in terms of uniformity in post graduate skills) than they deserve. It’s pretty mind blowing how bad some board certified orthopedic surgeons are. Maybe it’s just because you set the bar so high in your head, there are plenty of them who are doing surgery they should not be…

 

[Feli]

Incredible that the ABPM was able to replace 6 board members almost over night.

They couldn’t possibly have been nominated and elected that quickly. Does that make the entire process of selecting board members a sham? Were they handpicked “yes men/women”.

Enlighten me since I’m perplexed and would be happy to hear an explanation.

And some of the new board members look as if they haven’t reached puberty yet.

It is actually pretty clever. It will be a case study in how to be a low-level podiatry fuhrer one day:

Join the org in a seemingly harmless capacity.
Create CAQs (initially harmless-looking wound, sports, etc)
Take president spot.
President sets the officers...
Fire the nuke of CAQ surgery and attacks on ABFAS.
Get heat, but press on stating the BOD is behind you 100%.
BOD resigns, leaving unsupported president...
BOD is immediately re-filled by "BOD" (which is pressident, since all others quit).
New BOD is all inexperienced and obligated to prez for being appointed.
Bingo bango: Basically creates a one-person show without any vote, comments, nominations, oversight.

Genius? Misunderstood? Vengeful? Ahead of his time? Unhinged? All of the above?

I just want to know what wild finale prez plan the many exodus BODs were looking to prevent or at least not have their names associated with? Maybe we will never know... but I suppose we can thank them if we see them at a meeting?

...I hope their APMA funding and recognition gets put on probation for this.

I will post the results of my refund and membership suspension request (based on this BOD unilateral swicheroo without membership support).
I have never seen such garbage from any company or stock or org that I've been a part of.
Sure, I've lost my whole investment on some startup stocks or failed to get much return from a DPM supergroup or shares of things or whatever, but this is extreme to say the least.

I guess maybe I can post the "DISSOLUTION" part of their board bylaws sometime soon?

 

[Feli]

...they reached out to pods who they helped and maybe kinda owe them allegiance?? ...

There is no "them."

The entire BOD walked out on LCR. I would imagine it's to prevent something crazier yet from happening.

Either way, he re-stocked the BOD himself. Do the math. Read the bylaws.
Lee was asking SDN members to be on the replacements board. It's sad that anyone would even accept those appointments by that point.

... People like Lee feed off people like this and he only needs them in place for a short period of time.

Amazing, it's almost like you went to school or residency or worked with him or ppl who know him.

Sometimes I think I'm the only one - on SDN, there are many elsewhere - who knows his "ancient" history 15yrs, 10yrs, etc ago.

 

[Feli]

Obviously top to bottom ortho is more consistent but if you haven’t worked around many orthos doing locums work, then it would make sense to give ortho a little more credit (in terms of uniformity in post graduate skills) than they deserve. It’s pretty mind blowing how bad some board certified orthopedic surgeons are. Maybe it’s just because you set the bar so high in your head, there are plenty of them who are doing surgery they should not be…

Yeah, I saw that at the IHS. It was more gen surg than ortho there that were eyebrow-raising, but some ortho (locum or FTE) was no prize pig.

We have to remember the VA/IHS and most locums are the bottom of the barrel MDs, though. Those are usually your ~5% that struggle to pass boards or hold jobs... but there are some occasional rockstar locums too. Every profession has its duds.

...Either way, podiatry need to up our game. Fewer residency spots, more academics, more attendings and cases at the programs... better and MUCH more uniform end product.

 

[Shiyuan]

Lee was asking SDN members to be on the replacements board. "

Just curious, when was this? Not trying to refute it, but I don’t recall this post(s).

Meanwhile, with all this going on:

 

[podgal2003]

There is no "them."

The entire BOD walked out on LCR. I would imagine it's to prevent something crazier yet from happening.

Either way, he re-stocked the BOD himself. Do the math. Read the bylaws.
Lee was asking SDN members to be on the replacements board. It's sad that anyone would even accept those appointments by that point.


Amazing, it's almost like you went to school or residency or worked with him or ppl who know him.

Sometimes I think I'm the only one - on SDN, there are many elsewhere - who knows his "ancient" history 15yrs, 10yrs, etc ago.

I believe only 6 (ED and 5 voting members) of the 12 resigned, not all of them. Six remained (ED and five voting members).

Yes, I know his history. Was happy to see his political career went nowhere. He’s short term and there is light at the end of the tunnel. I can’t wait to see where he lands next.

 

[newfeet]

There doesn’t even need to be separate certs. Podiatry includes surgery. Hospitals don’t give you privileges based on your board cert (other than when Podiatrists have violated CMS regs and required ABFAS at their facilities to keep other podiatrists out). If you didn’t do ankle fractures in residency a hospital is not going to (or at least not required to) give you those privileges regardless of your board cert. And for everyone worried about people with inadequate training doing procedures they shouldn’t, there are already mechanisms in place at every ASC and Hospital in the country to stop that from happening. You report bad work/poor outcomes to the medical executive committee and the individual in question has their work reviewed. If found to be poor quality or not up to standard of care, then those privileges get revoked. At minimum they will require proctoring to regain them. You also have to re-credential every few years. So if you have certain privileges (like ankle fusions, straight out of residency) and you aren’t doing those cases in practices then, again, those privileges can and will be revoked. All of this happens at the facility level regardless of ABFAS, ABPM, even ABOS. Yes, orthopedic surgeons get privileges suspended or revoked.

The gate keeping function that some of you think makes ABFAS “necessary” already exists within every single Hospital and ASC in the country. It is one of the worst arguments for ABFAS. It’s literally a “problem” or “issue” that ABFAS has made up to make their cert necessary. A lot like certain government functions, create a problem that only you can fix…

We could easily have one board with appropriately difficult exams, reasonable case review process, high pass rates, and there would be zero changes to “patient safety.” And then the only reason for an ABPM or whatever secondary boards want to exist would be for those 2-3% of DPMs who need some sort of certification to get on commercial insurance panels just to work in a clinic-only setting. You don’t even need any type of board cert to bust crumblies in nursing homes so those folks are fine regardless.

That’s true. Treat it as one speciality then people can go off and pick the style of practice they want.

 

[heybrother]

I think the most interesting thing concerning the mass resignation and questions about "how seats are filled", "is filling seats a sham", "should a mass resignation trigger a special election or a vote" is that in the end - none of us have a choice about being in any of these organizations ie. ABPM, ABFAS etc.

Should something happen at ABPM right now? I don't know - what do the bylaws say?
If you are at ABFAS right now - should you ask yourself - 'What process do we have if there was turmoil or complete turn over of the board and our leadership". Are our bylaws any better?
I've written above asking - I wonder how people will run for office. What will the election look like. Or will the appointees just get elected and continue their terms.

But the funniest thing to me about all of this remains - Our ability to do our jobs and practice and operate and get on insurance panels is intimately linked with these organizations who to some extent can do whatever they want. We can't quit or walk away from them. Most of us will ultimately filter into ABPM or ABFAS or maybe both. Both have a real time limit - you certify or you don't.

I believe above that Feli has indicated he intends to leave ABPM. What happens to him if he doesn't certify into ABFAS at the end of his 14 years? He's probably in trouble. He's taking a principled stand I suppose but most people don't have that luxury. You pick a tribe - its yours forever and your ability to practice and survive is intimately linked to it. You can get outraged. I suppose you can try to vote to change it (assuming you have people to vote for...). But you can't leave. You can't say - I'm done with ABPM, I'm going to ABFAS unless you are still very early in the process.

 

[podgal2003]

I think the most interesting thing concerning the mass resignation and questions about "how seats are filled", "is filling seats a sham", "should a mass resignation trigger a special election or a vote" is that in the end - none of us have a choice about being in any of these organizations ie. ABPM, ABFAS etc.

Should something happen at ABPM right now? I don't know - what do the bylaws say?
If you are at ABFAS right now - should you ask yourself - 'What process do we have if there was turmoil or complete turn over of the board and our leadership". Are our bylaws any better?
I've written above asking - I wonder how people will run for office. What will the election look like. Or will the appointees just get elected and continue their terms.

But the funniest thing to me about all of this remains - Our ability to do our jobs and practice and operate and get on insurance panels is intimately linked with these organizations who to some extent can do whatever they want. We can't quit or walk away from them. Most of us will ultimately filter into ABPM or ABFAS or maybe both. Both have a real time limit - you certify or you don't.

I believe above that Feli has indicated he intends to leave ABPM. What happens to him if he doesn't certify into ABFAS at the end of his 14 years? He's probably in trouble. He's taking a principled stand I suppose but most people don't have that luxury. You pick a tribe - its yours forever and your ability to practice and survive is intimately linked to it. You can get outraged. I suppose you can try to vote to change it (assuming you have people to vote for...). But you can't leave. You can't say - I'm done with ABPM, I'm going to ABFAS unless you are still very early in the process.

I can leave, but I’m double boarded so not much to lose. However, I’m proud of my ABPM certification and it benefits me. I worked hard to get it, back when case submissions were required. I’m long on ABPM. The toxic leadership is on their way out. He’s a mere blip in the universe. There’s hope for ABPM when he and his crony are no longer relevant.

 

[Feli]

I believe only 6 (ED and 5 voting members) of the 12 resigned, not all of them...

They're all gone. The BOD and ED for ABPM all left last week.
Every last one ...except president, who used the bylaws above loophole of being the "BOD" and re-filled a new hand-picked BOD.
Past president didn't leave... although there'd be no way to replace that spot, obviously.

There are technically still two BOD photos from last year listed on the website as of today, but their bios are deleted. A third is listed but was already confirmed as being resigned and gone. I'm not even putting the names or the names of the many resignees or those still errantly listed as BOD since they probably have had a rough enough time this week, but it's not hard to figure out.

If you look at the ABPM emails from last year or early this year that were signed with the whole ABPM BOD and the exec director listed (10 BOD + exec director listed on most), all are confirmed resigned and/or deleted from the website. Again, I'm not going to rub salt in their wounds by listing names; I'm sure they're PO-ed they fell for the prez nonsense and drama and signing his countless emails "BOD" and statements with their names and pretending the BOD has his back for as long as they did. They were being used as fodder to add teeth to an obviously personal agenda and vendetta against ABFAS. I'm glad they got out eventually. I would applaud them for doing making a group resignation statement by not finishing their term as pawns. Orig post is here, but LCR tends to edit/delete them when you point them out, so screenshot is below also of the lies and chest-puffing...

"...And the ABPM will not back down. If necessary, this will continue long after my term as president. The entire BOD is behind this 100%...."

Entire BOD resigned, sir.

...And I share your sentiment that ABPM was a fine organization that served a purpose and fell for a cunning rogue, but that doesn't go without consequence. Nobody just plops in as president. There were years of lead-up actions and positions/promotions. Dozens of increasingly aggressive and unhinged actions happened. A bunch of inflammatory emails and accusations have been going on "on behalf of the whole ABPM" for about a year now. There is contributory negligence for their officers and BOD not voting LCR out (I would assume they tried, were stomped down, and that is why the mass/complete BOD exodus now?).

Regardless, I've been out of supporting ABPM since last year when the nonsense CAQ surgery was launched, and after the BOD unilateral instant overhaul, I'm certainly out of wanting anything to do with ABPM until the dust settles. It's a necessary and historic org, but these are not their shining moments.