7 W's: Am I Screwed?

[altamont850]

Due to circumstances beyond my control (burnout, depression) I had to withdraw from my calculus course. This brings my grand total of withdrawals up to 7. Does this situation completely cut off medical school for me in the future? My reasoning is that it shouldn't because 6/7 of these withdrawals are due to medical/behavioral health issues (i.e. depression) which are beyond my control. Even if I kept up a 3.8 GPA from this point, is it futile (right now I have about a 3.5-3.6 GPA but this should rise because I'm still taking Chemistry and Biology and I'm sitting on "A's" right now)?

I planned on taking chemistry 2 and calculus over the summer. If I excel in calculus over the summer would this, in effect, negate my withdrawal this semester?

I'm just so depressed. All I've ever wanted to do with my life is get a good education and become a doctor.If I cannot accomplish this I feel that I couldn't go on anymore. Every time I try to excel there is some roadblock which seems insurmountable and causes me to back track. I know medical school will be more difficult than undergrad so if I cannot overcome these hurdles know, how will I survive?

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[235788]

7 is an absurd number of "W"'s. It wont be viewed in good light, but may not be the dagger in the heart.


I have no idea how you will survive. It seems like you are having trouble with UG. Get it together.

 

[aSagacious]

Moving to the 'what are my chances?' forum.

 

[ppfizenm]

No offense (even though I think this may be a troll post) but 7 W's will not be looked at favorably. Also depression doesn't just strike during a single class. From what you are saying (dropped calc b/c so sad, but sticking with bio and chem b/c you have A's) it doesn't sound like these W's are from a semester's or two block of classes. More like you were doing bad in a few classes and dropped them sporadically over the course of your undergrad. Depression isn't selective and shouldn't be used as a go to excuse for dropping out of a class you are doing poorly in.

 

[altamont850]

No offense (even though I think this may be a troll post) but 7 W's will not be looked at favorably. Also depression doesn't just strike during a single class. From what you are saying (dropped calc b/c so sad, but sticking with bio and chem b/c you have A's) it doesn't sound like these W's are from a semester's or two block of classes. More like you were doing bad in a few classes and dropped them sporadically over the course of your undergrad. Depression isn't selective and shouldn't be used as a go to excuse for dropping out of a class you are doing poorly in.

Are you my psychiatrist? I dropped calculus because stress exacerbates my depression and calculus was a constant source of stress. I stuck with chemistry and biology because they are far less stressful. Just because you've been accepted to medical school doesn't mean you know anything about behavioral health.

 

[235788]

Are you my psychiatrist? I dropped calculus because stress exacerbates my depression and calculus was a constant source of stress. I stuck with chemistry and biology because they are far less stressful. Just because you've been accepted to medical school doesn't mean you know anything about behavioral health.

well maybe you're just a poor student? lack motivation? or are taking to rigorous of a courseload.
- a 3.5-3.6 is easy to get when you drop down to 10-13 (or even less) credit hours in a semester...
No worries. The caribbean accepts students with open arms.

 

[altamont850]

**** you! I'm sick of being ****ted on! I have a legitimate concern.

 

[V5RED]

Are you currently seeing a psychologist/psychiatrist? Are you being medicated for your depression?

If not, then it sounds like a made up excuse.

If so, have your grades improved since being treated?

 

[235788]

well OP, only you can fix this problem.

you came here asking if you were "ok."

I personally think you're semi-screwed, unless you turn things around. Just do what you have to do.

 

[ppfizenm]

Are you my psychiatrist? I dropped calculus because stress exacerbates my depression and calculus was a constant source of stress. I stuck with chemistry and biology because they are far less stressful. Just because you've been accepted to medical school doesn't mean you know anything about behavioral health.

Well I was seriously depressed my freshman year and know that specific classes don't bear the brunt of it. Getting out of bed isn't just hard on Tuesdays and Thursdays when calc rolls around. Depression hits pretty much every aspect of your life. You asked how it looks (without denying that you dropped randomly as opposed to entire semesters) and I am telling you. As someone who has been depressed it doesn't look valid. It looks like you are using it as an excuse for your own shortcomings.

 

[235788]

Well I was seriously depressed my freshman year and know that specific classes don't bear the brunt of it. Getting out of bed isn't just hard on Tuesdays and Thursdays when calc rolls around. Depression hits pretty much every aspect of your life. You asked how it looks (without denying that you dropped randomly as opposed to entire semesters) and I am telling you. As someone who has been depressed it doesn't look valid. It looks like you are using it as an excuse for your own shortcomings.

agree. . Depression is a BS overused excuse. Sometimes it is legit, many times it is not.

 

[ppfizenm]

Are you currently seeing a psychologist/psychiatrist? Are you being medicated for your depression?

If not, then it sounds like a made up excuse.

If so, have your grades improved since being treated?

It is so easy to get those meds that I wouldn't say being prescribed them qualifies as being depressed.

 

[V5RED]

It is so easy to get those meds that I wouldn't say being prescribed them qualifies as being depressed.

If he is diagnosed as depressed, then he has every right to claim he was depressed.

The point of asking whether he is being treated is multifold.

If he is not taking medicine or seeking therapy, then he is not showing that he is willing to try to fix the problem.

If he is being treated and his grades do not improve then it is hard to make the argument that they were low due to the depression.

If he is being treated and his grades have improved after the treatment, then he can argue that his past academic problems were a result of depression.

 

[JRWPREMED]

Rather than post a new thread on the same topic, what about my case?

I have 4 W's on my transcript from the same semester. I don't have any other W's, but I have that entire semester that I withdrew from. My grandfather died mid-semester and I knew my grades would suffer, so I submitted a withdrawal from university for the whole semester. Other than that, my grades are good and I hold a decent GPA.

 

[235788]

If he is diagnosed as depressed, then he has every right to claim he was depressed.

The point of asking whether he is being treated is multifold.

If he is not taking medicine or seeking therapy, then he is not showing that he is willing to try to fix the problem.

If he is being treated and his grades do not improve then it is hard to make the argument that they were low due to the depression.

If he is being treated and his grades have improved after the treatment, then he can argue that his past academic problems were a result of depression.

he/she can argue, but would they buy it? Depression is a huge gray area.

 

[235788]

Rather than post a new thread on the same topic, what about my case?

I have 4 W's on my transcript from the same semester. I don't have any other W's, but I have that entire semester that I withdrew from. My grandfather died mid-semester and I knew my grades would suffer, so I submitted a withdrawal from university for the whole semester. Other than that, my grades are good and I hold a decent GPA.

You have an honest "documented" reason. You took the safe road (no shame in that). I think your situation is different and understandable.

 

[V5RED]

he/she can argue, but would they buy it? Depression is a huge gray area.

If he has improved after treatment, then it would be unethical not to "buy it".

 

[ppfizenm]

If he is diagnosed as depressed, then he has every right to claim he was depressed.

The point of asking whether he is being treated is multifold.

If he is not taking medicine or seeking therapy, then he is not showing that he is willing to try to fix the problem.

If he is being treated and his grades do not improve then it is hard to make the argument that they were low due to the depression.

If he is being treated and his grades have improved after the treatment, then he can argue that his past academic problems were a result of depression.

Some physicians feel depression is highly an improperly diagnosed. Less than a third of people taking antidepressants actually see a mental health professional. In many cases they are being prescribed the antidepressants by primary care physicians who aren't as well trained to recognize/manage depression.

Taking the medication without receiving adequate mental health care or working out your issues only addresses some of the physical manifestations of depression

The medications do not work for everyone so he could be taking them and still seeing no improvement.

 

[235788]

If he has improved after treatment, then it would be unethical not to "buy it".

Some one walks into you're emergency room with "pain," tells you dilaudid is the only thing that works on him. Is it unethical to not give it to him?

My point is, ethics are goofy too! You never HAVE to do anything. They could just not offer an interview and cite a "large volume of competitive applicants and a lack of resources to interview them all." Most of us applying have received an email along these lines. I being one of them.

 

[altamont850]

well OP, only you can fix this problem.

you came here asking if you were "ok."

I personally think you're semi-screwed, unless you turn things around. Just do what you have to do.

What do you mean by turn things around?

 

[V5RED]

Some physicians feel depression is highly an improperly diagnosed. Less than a third of people taking antidepressants actually see a mental health professional. In many cases they are being prescribed the antidepressants by primary care physicians who aren't as well trained to recognize/manage depression.

Taking the medication without receiving adequate mental health care or working out your issues only addresses some of the physical manifestations of depression

The medications do not work for everyone so he could be taking them and still seeing no improvement.

The case of him not improving would mean his condition was irrelevant to whether or not he should be accepted since his past poor grades would still reflect his current abilities.

 

[altamont850]

What should I do?

 

[235788]

What do you mean by turn things around?

For 2 years I got a 3.5, did ok except for 2 C+'s. I had a coming to reality that this was just barely acceptable, so I picked apart my issues and realized that my problem was cramming and not studying correctly. I "turned things around," and managed to go 3.93-4.0 for the next 2 years as a biology major while still doing all of my EC's. Just look at your issues and correct them. I know you state depression, but no one is perfect and I'm sure you can find other things to correct (time management, studying well before tests, going to class - whatever it is). You can salvage yourself if you put in the effort.

Worst case scenario - you do a SMP and enter med school by the "backdoor," as some call it.

You can view a SMP as a masters that gives you an opportunity to "try-out" for medical schools, and if you do well, you make the team.

 

[V5RED]

What should I do?

Answering the questions I asked would be very helpful.

Maybe a breakdown of your grades pre treatment and post treatment. I mean class by class.

In general though the advice is obvious. You need to do better in classes.

 

[ppfizenm]

The case of him not improving would mean his condition was irrelevant to whether or not he should be accepted since his past poor grades would still reflect his current abilities.

His past poor grades mixed with good indicate a condition doesn't exist.

If you want to get into med school stop dropping classes. Finish strong. Ace, ACE, the MCAT. Get absolutely everything you can EC wise including shadowing/volunteer/research. Place the blame where it belongs for the W's (don't pass the buck). Pray for an understanding ad com.

 

[Prncssbuttercup]

How is depression NOT within your control? Change your attitude and start looking at things differently. I hate to break this to you, but life isn't fair. If you assumed you'd pull a 4.0 in college and are withdrawing (socially and from courses) because you're NOT getting a 4.0, I will break the news to you, very few people do. People in other countries don't have depression like the US because they don't have the luxury of having depression. If they don't get their ass in gear, they don't eat, or work, etc. Another fact, have you seen the non-trad forum? Yeah, lots of us wanted to be doctors at your age and pulled **** and weren't successful until we pulled our heads out of our butts and started working that same butt off....

You're whining "allllll I everrrrr wanted was to be a Dr.... (sad pouty face)" so change your attitude and get with it. Start remembering life is in your control, it isn't dictated to you by others. How you respond is within your control, what your professors do is not. You have a 3.5? Get over it. Quit whining, stand up, grow a vagina, and get on with it. Quit using excuses, be responsible, and stop looking for pity for your 'condition'.

Also, 7-Ws.... better than 7 Fs... but not by much, I highly suggest you start retaking these courses and showing you can do better the 2nd time around...

 

[aSagacious]

How is depression NOT within your control? Change your attitude and start looking at things differently.

Whether or not he's actually depressed I don't know, but if he is in fact clinically depressed it's not as simple as 'looking at things differently'.

 

[Prncssbuttercup]

Strange isn't it that people in other countries don't have this problem?? I also find it funny that a psychiatrist wanted to put me on meds at 13 (that's 22yrs ago) because he said I was 'depressed' thankfully I am smarter than that... I ~98% disagree with the use of anti-depressants, and have seen no improvement in the many many people I know who take them... I think people in THIS country need to realize that life is what we make of it.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1439129061/ref=ox_sc_act_title_4

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0743265076/ref=ox_sc_act_title_5

 

[aSagacious]

I don't necessarily disagree with you on the prevalence of false positives in diagnosing depression. However, having met a significant number of truly and profoundly depressed individuals (to the extent that a few had to be hospitalized) I refuse to believe that it's simply a matter of perspective for a not-insignificant population.

 

[riseagainst]

Not to thread jack but depression isn't entirely under the person's control. Relevant quote is "The actual basis of depression is unknown but it is widely accepted that it is influenced by genetic, environmental and neurobiological factors" from an article written by a Dr. Lopez from UMich (not sure about SDNs policy on links).

@OP -- What other people have said, you have to get treatment then show that you are capable of getting through medical school. Good luck to you.

 

[chemhead123]

Anyone else think SBB2016 sounds a lot like Tom Cruise? Wouldn't that be awesome if Tom Cruise was on SDN?

Seriously... depression is real, but it is an overused excuse by many. SBB2016, your logic is severely flawed. There are thousand reasons why there would be such a "low" incidence of depression overseas, one of which could be flawed reporting.

Your response is out of line considering you don't know the OP.

@OP, unless you grades improve dramatically you are going to have issues. If the Ws are spread over multiple semesters its going to look much worse. My limited understand of depression is similar to what an earlier poster wrote. Its not Tuesday and Thursday mornings when Calc comes around, its 24/7 don't want to get out of bed, or eat. Forget school, forget life.

Its not the end of the world, but it will come up in your interview. For sure.

 

[altamont850]

I just want to clarify some things. I do have a clinical diagnosis of depression and 5 of my withdrawals have documentation from my physicatrist attesting to this fact (withdrew from a semester). The other withdrawal was merely a matter of poor planning (couldn't get to class after I'd registered and was to far into the semester to just drop). I really have 6 withdrawals as I've yet to actually withdraw from calculus. My next calculus exam is next week and I plan on studying for the remainder of this week.

I agree that many times people use depression as an excuse but I don't feel that my situation is an example of an invalid excuse.

I'm currently taking steps to treat my depression (medication and regular doctor's visits) and I do have my good and bad days. If 5 of my withdrawals have a valid excuse, from a doctor, would the one extra withdrawal still hurt?

In addition, I'm not a poor student. I'm usually on my game but there are instances where I feel less than 100% (as we all do). I try my best to buckle down and power through.

 

[Thego2guy]

I just want to clarify some things. I do have a clinical diagnosis of depression and 5 of my withdrawals have documentation from my physicatrist attesting to this fact (withdrew from a semester). The other withdrawal was merely a matter of poor planning (couldn't get to class after I'd registered and was to far into the semester to just drop). I really have 6 withdrawals as I've yet to actually withdraw from calculus. My next calculus exam is next week and I plan on studying for the remainder of this week.

I agree that many times people use depression as an excuse but I don't feel that my situation is an example of an invalid excuse.

I'm currently taking steps to treat my depression (medication and regular doctor's visits) and I do have my good and bad days. If 5 of my withdrawals have a valid excuse, from a doctor, would the one extra withdrawal still hurt?

Hey buddy, I think people were a little bit too tough on you here from the get-go, so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt! I am familiar with Clinical Depression first hand, read numerous literature texts on it, and experienced it myself in a variety of forms - accompanied with extreme anxiety. Now I am in a much better place in life, so trust me, things get better.

Anyway, you said that you withdrew from one semester? Hence those 5 "W"? I think that makes your situation A LOT better. Especially if you have all of this documented. So don't worry, not all is lost. Do your best to maintain a GPA above a 3.4 (at least), and little by little start preparing for the MCAT to shoot for a score in the early 30's. As soon as you crawl out of your hole, don't go crazy, but slowly immerse yourself in extra-curricular activities. In fact, I think that if you volunteer in a senior home, or give patients company in the hospital (as part of a volunteering gig), you will be surprised how much it will divert your inner thoughts away from nonsense, and you will actually be mentally and emotionally occupied by real world things.

At the very least, I think you have a solid chance to improve a lot of things, and definitely make DO schools. This advice comes with caution however, be optimistic, but be realistic as well!!!! "Dreaming" of medicine and experiencing it and seeing it for what it is are two separate things. I think you need to really think about your goals and find out why you want to be a physician. Perhaps you will re-ignite some passion, or maybe move on to bigger and better things. Whatever you do, don't get intimidated and discouraged. Its all in your hands! Good luck.

 

[chemhead123]

I agree with everything that Thego2guy said. Good points.

 

[Scalpels]

Strange isn't it that people in other countries don't have this problem?? I also find it funny that a psychiatrist wanted to put me on meds at 13 (that's 22yrs ago) because he said I was 'depressed' thankfully I am smarter than that... I ~98% disagree with the use of anti-depressants, and have seen no improvement in the many many people I know who take them... I think people in THIS country need to realize that life is what we make of it.

SBB2016, your logic is severely flawed. There are thousand reasons why there would be such a "low" incidence of depression overseas, one of which could be flawed reporting.

In conjunction with that, there are significant differences in how people in the US interact with their daily lives and the persistent cultures present in them compared to many other countries. Including how we work in our careers, our lives outside of our careers, how fast-paced we truly are, lack of taking breaks and personal time-offs, etc.

Just a couple of pennies from someone who's taken at least Sociology 101. Read it how you will.

 

[ReInventor]

I don't necessarily disagree with you on the prevalence of false positives in diagnosing depression. However, having met a significant number of truly and profoundly depressed individuals (to the extent that a few had to be hospitalized) I refuse to believe that it's simply a matter of perspective for a not-insignificant population.

Agreed. It's amazing that many people still believe that people with legitimate clinical depression need to "get over it," etc.

 

[ppfizenm]

Agreed. It's amazing that many people still believe that people with legitimate clinical depression need to "get over it," etc.

well in essence they do. Not so bluntly put and not in a day but in abstract basically what you are doing is getting over it.

 

[Scalpels]

well in essence they do. Not so bluntly put and not in a day but in abstract basically what you are doing is getting over it.

In many cases, sure.

What about the cases where there's chemical imbalances?

I don't mean for that to sound nitpicky, just curious on thoughts.

 

[ppfizenm]

In many cases, sure.

What about the cases where there's chemical imbalances?

I don't mean for that to sound nitpicky, just curious on thoughts.

The popular thinking on depression is moving away from a strictly biological cause (i.e. chemicals). In some cases, like hypothyroidism, a chemical cause is strictly to blame, but merely fixing the cause (restoring thyroid hormone balance) doesn't always fix the depression.

here's a good article that you can listen to/read to get a better picture.

http://www.npr.org/blogs/health/2012/01/23/145525853/when-it-comes-to-depression-serotonin-isnt-the-whole-story

 

[ReInventor]

well in essence they do. Not so bluntly put and not in a day but in abstract basically what you are doing is getting over it.

Well, abstractly, yes. But when people say "get over it" I don't think they usually mean seek help and treatment and gradually work on your issues.

 

[Scalpels]

The popular thinking on depression is moving away from a strictly biological cause (i.e. chemicals). In some cases, like hypothyroidism, a chemical cause is strictly to blame, but merely fixing the cause (restoring thyroid hormone balance) doesn't always fix the depression.

here's a good article that you can listen to/read to get a better picture.

http://www.npr.org/blogs/health/201...-to-depression-serotonin-isnt-the-whole-story

Interesting! Thanks for the link.

 

[ccfman1991]

If you are fighting depression, are you sure med school is exactly what you want to do? My best friend is in med school right now and he says.it'd the hardest thing he's ever done in his life. If for whatever reason the depression hits when you are in med school, you're in HUGE trouble. And by HUGE i mean that backing out of a semester of work will cost you around $30,000.

 

[altamont850]

I've made the decision to withdraw from all my courses. I think the best course of action for me is to take some time off and reevaluate some things. I think this would be wise because it would allow me to come back to academics refreshed (and hopefully in a holistically sound state). My GPA is still good but I think I could explain my withdrawals as being due to emotional issue coupled with some trepidation in regard to my ability and future. I'm not a poor student but I believe that I'm not productive due to my personal issues. If I effectively sort out my personal issues, and in addition, continue to excel academically would I still have a shot at MD(Keep in mind I will have 11 withdrawals-10 from withdrawing from 2 complete semester-bought of depression and one withdrawal from a literature course)?

Why would there be a penalty for having a deficiency beyond my control (I've had depression and other emotional issues since I was 12 and I'm now 20- I've been working for 8 years to improve)? We all have our crosses to bear and this turns out to be mine. If I show an upward trend, will I still have a chance at MD?

 

[theseeker4]

I've made the decision to withdraw from all my courses. I think the best course of action for me is to take some time off and reevaluate some things. I think this would be wise because it would allow me to come back to academics refreshed (and hopefully in a holistically sound state). My GPA is still good but I think I could explain my withdrawals as being due to emotional issue coupled with some trepidation in regard to my ability and future. I'm not a poor student but I believe that I'm not productive due to my personal issues. If I effectively sort out my personal issues, and in addition, continue to excel academically would I still have a shot at MD(Keep in mind I will have 11 withdrawals-10 from withdrawing from 2 complete semester-bought of depression and one withdrawal from a literature course)?

Why would there be a penalty for having a deficiency beyond my control (I've had depression and other emotional issues since I was 12 and I'm now 20- I've been working for 8 years to improve)? We all have our crosses to bear and this turns out to be mine. If I show an upward trend, will I still have a chance at MD?

Don't think about it as a penalty for having a deficiency beyond your control, or you will end up very bitter and with a huge chip on your shoulder. Think of it as the adcoms want to be sure you will succeed (otherwise they would give the seat to someone who will) and the best way to judge that is your academic record. Someone with a medical condition resulting in a poor academic showing looks better than someone who just didn't give a damn, but they want to see that you can now, in fact, handle the course load and hard work. The last thing they want is the med students they selected for acceptance to flunk out or drop because they can't handle it, and the only way to judge your abilities is to examine your prior history.

They will take into account your hardships as a legitimate reason your record was not stellar, but they will want to see recent evidence that you have minimized these issues' impact on your ability to do the work. Taking time off and returning when you are ready, and doing well after returning, should be sufficient to demonstrate you are capable of the work. Just be sure you can maintain high grades with no withdraws after you return and you should get some love from med schools.

 

[altamont850]

Don't think about it as a penalty for having a deficiency beyond your control, or you will end up very bitter and with a huge chip on your shoulder. Think of it as the adcoms want to be sure you will succeed (otherwise they would give the seat to someone who will) and the best way to judge that is your academic record. Someone with a medical condition resulting in a poor academic showing looks better than someone who just didn't give a damn, but they want to see that you can now, in fact, handle the course load and hard work. The last thing they want is the med students they selected for acceptance to flunk out or drop because they can't handle it, and the only way to judge your abilities is to examine your prior history.

They will take into account your hardships as a legitimate reason your record was not stellar, but they will want to see recent evidence that you have minimized these issues' impact on your ability to do the work. Taking time off and returning when you are ready, and doing well after returning, should be sufficient to demonstrate you are capable of the work. Just be sure you can maintain high grades with no withdraws after you return and you should get some love from med schools.

Thank you

You made some excellent points

 

[altamont850]

While taking some time off, should I do some medical volunteering and/or shadowing to demonstrate my interest in medicine?

 

[altamont850]

Would volunteering be a good avenue for my free time? Perhaps at my local hospital?

 

[altamont850]

Would volunteering be a good avenue for my free time? Perhaps at my local hospital?

Would volunteering daily for the next 3 months be a wise use of time?

 

[V5RED]

[deleted because this was a stupid thing to say]

If almost all the withdraws are in one semester it is not so bad

 

[altamont850]

You could put in 8000 hours of volunteering, 5000 hours of shadowing, 12000 hours of research, be an active member of 12 clubs, a champion athlete, and have a friend on the adcom and still you will not get in unless you are able to get your psychological issues under control and score a high GPA without protecting it with withdraws as well as a high MCAT score.

I planned on getting help but I'm asking if, while getting help, would if be a good idea to improve my EC's by volunteering?