6% of USMD students, 20% of USDO students, and 46% of USIMGs went UN-matched

[MD2BE92]

I read the the AMA document and I still didn't see anything about retention rates. There may be a ton of data out there but nothing about retention of FMGs.

I would also take anything the AMA has to say about workforce issues with a pound of salt. The AMA has done its best to create and perpetuate a shortage and maldistribution of physicians in the US. It is the AMA, acting through the LCME, that recently put Baylor Medical College on probation for the most ticky tack BS imaginable./ See this:
http://www.houstonchronicle.com/new...g-body-places-Baylor-on-probation-5585791.php

Show me the retention numbers, please.

Not to get too off topic here but I've seen multiple users re-write this cliche using some iteration of this^ I'm assuming they mean to say with a large amount of skepticism, but I'm not sure it makes sense using it like this.

Not a good source, I know, correct me if this is inaccurate.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grain_of_salt

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[Mad Jack]

But if you want to do the math, there are currently 228,665 physicians that are IMGs. Given that there have been around 5,400 IMGs training at any given time up until recently (you can parse the numbers, but give or take a thousand, it still doesn't matter) that adds up to an EXTREMELY high retention rate.

 

[Mad Jack]

Not to get too off topic here but I've seen multiple users re-write this cliche using some iteration of this^ I'm assuming they mean to say with a large amount of skepticism, but I'm not sure it makes sense using it like this.

Not a good source, I know, correct me if this is inaccurate.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grain_of_salt

They just mean to take it with a lot of grains of salt that, in aggregate, equal a pound of salt. It's an idiom taken to absurdity.

 

[MD2BE92]

They just mean to take it with a lot of grains of salt that, in aggregate, equal a pound of salt. It's an idiom taken to absurdity.

Yeah I figured something of the sort. At least I know that someone else thought about this the same way I did, thanks

 

[0ncogene]

I forget, how many years of reviewing residency applications do you have? I have been through 4 cycles of residency applications and after reviewing hundreds of applications, we preferentially interview FMGs over DOs over IMGs. This has nothing to do with where they are going to school, this has to do with how good of applicants they are. Maybe this is a product of being in a surgical subspecialty, but you do not find superstar DOs or IMGs. Certainly not all FMGs applying are superstars, some can barely speak English or lack even the most basic cultural understandings, but the range is much wider and the top end is much higher. Again, there are many FMGs that can easily compete with the best USMDs, so this is not particularly surprising.

This may be the case. Most DO students applying to surgical specialties are applying to AOA programs. After the "merger", you should see stellar DO applicants in your rank list.

 

[abn632]

It's so funny to me that everyone who seems to believe that protectionism is good for the US medical system has either not yet matched or not started medical school. When you're in the hospital and you're working with a very diverse group of physicians from all over the world, many of whom bring things to the table that some run of the mill US grad never could, you realize how ridiculous a loss it would be, and all for the sake of what? Providing protections to US citizens that literally no other graduates of any educational path get? The government subsidizes loans for engineers too, should we kick out all the talented kids here on visas from China, India, and Germany because "hur durr, gotta protect muh US jerbs!" That's not how we operate.

Residencies are there to train the best possible physicians for the US population, not to train the largest number of US citizens to serve the US population. If the best citizens for the job end up not being Americans, then that's just how it is.

I don't argue for excluding FMGs from residency programs from the position of protectionism but from the position of it being a highly inefficient system. Here in the US, we have a system whereby med school graduates, despite being in possession of an MD or DO degree, absolutely cannot practice medicine until they have completed some amount of residency training. To practice medicine in the US otherwise would be illegal. This is also the reason why an FMG can't just show up in the US and hang a shingle - they must successfully complete residency training in the US.

The problem as I see it as that FMGs are not in the same boat as US citizens. Most FMGs, having been trained and educated in their own countries, likely have their own version of residency to participate in if they are unsuccessful in the US match. US citizens don't really have a backup country that will provide residency training - for them, it's pretty much the US or bust. And let's be real - FMGs aren't coming here to provide amazing patient care (though most do exactly that) - they're coming here to get paid. I assure you, I do not have a problem with this.

As I mentioned in an earlier post in this thread, I fully support a separate fast-track program for FMGs who are highly-skilled and already trained. But to put them through a US residency program is inefficient, just as it is inefficient for the US to pay for training positions via taxpayer dollars, provide student loans to US citizens via taxpayer dollars, then exclude a portion of those students, many of whom are otherwise qualified, from training positions which are mandatory in order to practice medicine.

 

[Mad Jack]

I don't argue for excluding FMGs from residency programs from the position of protectionism but from the position of it being a highly inefficient system. Here in the US, we have a system whereby med school graduates, despite being in possession of an MD or DO degree, absolutely cannot practice medicine until they have completed some amount of residency training. To practice medicine in the US otherwise would be illegal. This is also the reason why an FMG can't just show up in the US and hang a shingle - they must successfully complete residency training in the US.

The problem as I see it as that FMGs are not in the same boat as US citizens. Most FMGs, having been trained and educated in their own countries, likely have their own version of residency to participate in if they are unsuccessful in the US match. US citizens don't really have a backup country that will provide residency training - for them, it's pretty much the US or bust. And let's be real - FMGs aren't coming here to provide amazing patient care (though most do exactly that) - they're coming here to get paid. I assure you, I do not have a problem with this.

As I mentioned in an earlier post in this thread, I fully support a separate fast-track program for FMGs who are highly-skilled and already trained. But to put them through a US residency program is inefficient, just as it is inefficient for the US to pay for training positions via taxpayer dollars, provide student loans to US citizens via taxpayer dollars, then exclude a portion of those students, many of whom are otherwise qualified, from training positions which are mandatory in order to practice medicine.

In America, we tend to not believe discrimination is acceptable merely because it is "efficient."

 

[rajhanda]

In America, we tend to not believe discrimination is acceptable merely because it is "efficient."

Where does it say in the Constitution that immigration is a right, or non-immigrant foreigners cannot be discriminated against?

 

[Wordead]

You guys that are advocating for a streamlined process for FMGs have obviously never seen medicine in another country. You think we practice the same way as they do in india?

It's so dumb you should just go jump off a bridge.

 

[Mad Jack]

You guys that are advocating for a streamlined process for FMGs have obviously never seen medicine in another country. You think we practice the same way as they do in india?

It's so dumb you should just go jump off a bridge.

It could very well be streamlined for some countries. Say, allowing Commonwealth and other first-world physicians that have fully trained to the consultant level to attempt the specialty boards in their respective fields.

 

[WilliamofOckham]

In America, we tend to not believe discrimination is acceptable merely because it is "efficient."

Oh, boo hoo.

 

[Mad Jack]

Oh, boo hoo.

It's not a "boo hoo" issue, it's how we do things in every other field from nursing to computer science to engineering. The government hands out visas to foreigners like crazy so that companies can hire the best people from all over the world, rather than merely employ our own. Americans are quick to whine about it, but it's highly unlikely that we'll suddenly flip and change the way we've been importing qualified labor for longer than any of us have been alive overnight.

 

[abn632]

You guys that are advocating for a streamlined process for FMGs have obviously never seen medicine in another country. You think we practice the same way as they do in india?

It's so dumb you should just go jump off a bridge.

You are correct, I don't know how they do it in India. Or China. Or Germany. Or Japan. Or the UK. But surely we can agree that it is highly inefficient to take, for example, an already trained and qualified neurosurgeon from Germany and expect him to complete a 6/7 year long residency in the US? Surely someone of that caliber with all the commensurate education, training, and experience should be able to perform to "US standards" after 5 years? Or 4? Or 2?

I mean, I love the US, and our medical education and training is top notch, but I know we ain't #1 in everything (except for % overweight, % diabetic, % incarcerated, and all the other bad stats that we normally associate with Mississippi). FMGs have a lot to offer, but complete retraining in their field of expertise is completely unnecessary.

 

[sabsaf123]

It's ridiculous that you are implying that this is a "strategy" let alone a viable one. Not matching at all is the worst possible outcome for a med student and that is what has happened with those 20% of DO students. In the SOAP/scramble you find programs where every person who interviewed there said "no thanks" and went elsewhere. Spots in malignant programs or undesirable locations. Scrambling is NOT a desirable outcome and should not be a part of your strategy as you are picking from the scraps in a hectic process where you are completely stripped of choice and essentially are forced to take whatever is offered. This extremely undesirable outcome happens over 3 times more often among DOs than US MDs.

Don't let the high placement rates the DO schools try and quote fool you. A match is still the goal and anyone who didn't match (over a fifth of DO students) did not get what they wanted.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile app

Hey meat tornado,

After reading your posts it seems like you're very knowledgable about this topic. My question is, are DO schools really that bad? If 20% DO students are not matching and getting stuck with 200k+ in debt, why isn't everyone shunning DO schools? Did these students just apply for things they weren't competitive for? If I'm a low tier DO student (still passing) should I worry about getting into FM? -- for the record I'm interested in FM regardless of whether I'm a top student or bottom student.

I know DO students that are getting straight C's/low board scores despite trying their best. Many of these ppl want to go into FM or peds. Is there a >20% they end up not getting in anywhere and never becoming a doctor?

 

[Mad Jack]

Hey meat tornado,

After reading your posts it seems like you're very knowledgable about this topic. My question is, are DO schools really that bad? If 20% DO students are not matching and getting stuck with 200k+ in debt, why isn't everyone shunning DO schools? Did these students just apply for things they weren't competitive for? If I'm a low tier DO student (still passing) should I worry about getting into FM? -- for the record I'm interested in FM regardless of whether I'm a top student or bottom student.

We get a full list of every single student from the previous year and where they matched, in addition to schools being required to report placement to the COCA. We're pretty transparent about who matches and where. Here's my school's match report, for instance:

Average placement was >98% last year for all COMs after accounting for the AOA match, milmatch, NRMP match, SF match, and all the scrambles. "Deferred For 1 Year" can be unmatched, someone who had a kid and wants to take a gap year before internship, or someone doing a research fellowship- every now and then we've got someone who gets a really great research position and that makes them want to not go on to GME right away. So basically we've got 3 people that didn't get a GME spot in 2015, for whatever reason. As to where they end up, here's where my school typically ends up with those matches:

It's pretty easy to find actual statistics and data on, rather than listening to hearsay.

 

[ZPakEffect]

Hey meat tornado,

After reading your posts it seems like you're very knowledgable about this topic. My question is, are DO schools really that bad? If 20% DO students are not matching and getting stuck with 200k+ in debt, why isn't everyone shunning DO schools? Did these students just apply for things they weren't competitive for? If I'm a low tier DO student (still passing) should I worry about getting into FM? -- for the record I'm interested in FM regardless of whether I'm a top student or bottom student.

I know DO students that are getting straight C's/low board scores despite trying their best. Many of these ppl want to go into FM or peds. Is there a >20% they end up not getting in anywhere and never becoming a doctor?

The 20% is referring to people who do not match, not people who never end up in any residency. Most of the 20% eventually get into a residency somewhere, but it probably is not somewhere they really wanted to be.

 

[Mad Jack]

The 20% is referring to people who do not match, not people who never end up in any residency. Most of the 20% eventually get into a residency somewhere, but it probably is not somewhere they really wanted to be.

True. But his question was about someone being 200k+ in debt with nothing to show for it, not with people matching to less than ideal places. The former doesn't happen, but I can agree that the latter is quite common.

 

[sabsaf123]

True. But his question was about someone being 200k+ in debt with nothing to show for it, not with people matching to less than ideal places. The former doesn't happen, but I can agree that the latter is quite common.

It's a relief to see that data you posted. On a side note, it's surprising to see that the same % of students go into EM as Peds. What kind of scores gives someone a good chance for EM?

 

[Mad Jack]

It's a relief to see that data you posted. On a side note, it's surprising to see that the same % of students go into EM as Peds. What kind of scores gives someone a good chance for EM?

I wouldn't go off of today's scores for your future. EM has been getting increasingly competitive each year. I know people that matched ACGME with 220s, but I also know people that went unmatched with higher. Really depends on your overall application and such, but I predict things are going to get tight in the near future for DOs, as one of the largest AOA specialties was EM, and all of those will soon be folded into the ACGME match.

 

[Stagg737]

Hey meat tornado,

After reading your posts it seems like you're very knowledgable about this topic. My question is, are DO schools really that bad? If 20% DO students are not matching and getting stuck with 200k+ in debt, why isn't everyone shunning DO schools? Did these students just apply for things they weren't competitive for? If I'm a low tier DO student (still passing) should I worry about getting into FM? -- for the record I'm interested in FM regardless of whether I'm a top student or bottom student.

First off, Meat Tornado will be one of the first people to bad mouth the DO side of medicine, so not the most unbiased opinion. Second, 20% of DO students that participate in the ACGME match do not match. That doesn't include everyone that matches through the AOA match (which is over half of DO graduates), so saying over 1/5th of DO students don't match is flat out wrong.

I've heard of very few U.S. students, on the MD or DO side who didn't match because they were too bad of a candidate. When people don't match it's usually because they either shoot for a field they're not competitive for or just apply poorly (only apply to a few programs, decide to attend only a few interviews, etc.). Even if you're a very mediocre DO student, if you're not overly picky about where you want to do residency you should still be able to match into FM relatively easily. The difference isn't whether or not you can match, it's which programs you can reasonable expect to have a shot at.

 

[WingedOx]

In America, we tend to not believe discrimination is acceptable merely because it is "efficient."

You obviously haven't wandered into what became of the "creationism" thread today.

 

[235009]

I heard that some schools(well one school from a student there, but if one does it I imagine they arent the only one), allow students who dont match or place to delay graduation so they arent counted in the placement stats for that year and then count them when they match/place the following year. I dont know how prevalent it is but this student made it seem like it wasnt an insignificant number of students at his school.

This is a good example of one of the "games" that is played in order to get to that required placement rate. Let's also not forget that they count prelim/non-categorical matches in that too. So a handful of these students don't exactly have an easy path to becoming a physician and paying off those loans. The process is a lot more nuanced than some on here present it either because of naivete or a desire to misrepresent reality.

Happens quite often in both MD and DO schools. These students just get bumped forward though, which means they still count in next year's match results, so it's kind of a null proposition.

But the following year they will likely be applying to bottom of the barrel programs that don't fill so they can get something

Hey meat tornado,

After reading your posts it seems like you're very knowledgable about this topic. My question is, are DO schools really that bad? If 20% DO students are not matching and getting stuck with 200k+ in debt, why isn't everyone shunning DO schools? Did these students just apply for things they weren't competitive for? If I'm a low tier DO student (still passing) should I worry about getting into FM? -- for the record I'm interested in FM regardless of whether I'm a top student or bottom student.

I know DO students that are getting straight C's/low board scores despite trying their best. Many of these ppl want to go into FM or peds. Is there a >20% they end up not getting in anywhere and never becoming a doctor?

The answer to this was given above. Match rate and placement rate are different. Keep in mind though that if someone doesn't match what's worse than ending up at an undesirable program is ending up in a prelim spot (only 1 year, you aren't board eligible in any specialty after, you either need to find a spot the old fashion way after that year, re-enter the match, or try and get a general license in a state that allows only 1 year of post-grad training though many hospitals and insurance companies won't hire/pay you). DO schools purposefully try and hide how many students match at only prelim spots. It's absolutely impossible to tell from the match lists they release because they mix those who have matched into an advanced spot in with those who did not. This is done on purpose to mask this bad/undesirable outcome. What matters to them is that they get to count it toward their "placement rate" and they don't give a **** what happens with the rest of that student's career.

Not saying this doesn't happen at US MD schools. It certainly does but it's much less prevalent. Some chools even provide student names or group the advanced positon with the prelim position to make it possible to tell which prelim matches did not have an advanced position.

 

[sabsaf123]

This is a good example of one of the "games" that is played in order to get to that required placement rate. Let's also not forget that they count prelim/non-categorical matches in that too. So a handful of these students don't exactly have an easy path to becoming a physician and paying off those loans. The process is a lot more nuanced than some on here present it either because of naivete or a desire to misrepresent reality.



But the following year they will likely be applying to bottom of the barrel programs that don't fill so they can get something

So by saying this, you agree that the reason they didn't match is cuz they didn't apply broadly enough? If they had applied to more low tier programs in the first place they'd be better off? The thing I don't get is, if a significant # of students are really being left with 300k debt and no job then why isn't there more outrage? Why is it that recent DO graduates and 4th years warn us about stress, workload, debt, long hours, etc. but they never warn us about how there's a chance we may never match? We hear this about Carib schools all the time, but everyone seems to say that if you go DO, even if you're a bottom tier student you will match somewhere.

 

[sabsaf123]

@Mad Jack

What are your thoughts on the prelim issue that MeatTornado is talking about? Do some people that do a TY/prelim end up never getting a residency?

 

[235009]

So by saying this, you agree that the reason they didn't match is cuz they didn't apply broadly enough? If they had applied to more low tier programs in the first place they'd be better off? The thing I don't get is, if a significant # of students are really being left with 300k debt and no job then why isn't there more outrage? Why is it that recent DO graduates and 4th years warn us about stress, workload, debt, long hours, etc. but they never warn us about how there's a chance we may never match? We hear this about Carib schools all the time, but everyone seems to say that if you go DO, even if you're a bottom tier student you will match somewhere.

Many times if you had applied to that AOA FM program in North Dakota (or similar) you would have matched. I think at this point the AOA programs provide enough of a safety net that enough DOs eventually find some way to make a viable career. When you have so many spots with such little interest it's easy for someone desperate enough to scoop up a FM position in the middle of nowhere. With the "merger" opening up these protected spots it will be harder for DOs who have historically relied on this safety net.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile app

 

[deleted731525]

So by saying this, you agree that the reason they didn't match is cuz they didn't apply broadly enough? If they had applied to more low tier programs in the first place they'd be better off? The thing I don't get is, if a significant # of students are really being left with 300k debt and no job then why isn't there more outrage? Why is it that recent DO graduates and 4th years warn us about stress, workload, debt, long hours, etc. but they never warn us about how there's a chance we may never match? We hear this about Carib schools all the time, but everyone seems to say that if you go DO, even if you're a bottom tier student you will match somewhere.

The issue isnt so much placing(eventually) as much as it is placing into what the student wants. You can find categorical AOA spots in the SOAP and even if you have to settle for a prelim you can usually get a categorical spot the next year. However it is likely that it will be at a program that isnt very desirable for whatever reason in both cases. Example: Student wants EM but strikes out in the match and ends up in an AOA IM residency in a bad location after the soap. For those matching before a combined match chances are you will end up as a practicing physician eventually, just maybe not in the specialty you want if you arent a competitive applicant. After the combined match is anybody's guess but I cant see things changing too much.

 

[IslandStyle808]

The answer to this was given above. Match rate and placement rate are different. Keep in mind though that if someone doesn't match what's worse than ending up at an undesirable program is ending up in a prelim spot (only 1 year, you aren't board eligible in any specialty after, you either need to find a spot the old fashion way after that year, re-enter the match, or try and get a general license in a state that allows only 1 year of post-grad training though many hospitals and insurance companies won't hire/pay you). DO schools purposefully try and hide how many students match at only prelim spots. It's absolutely impossible to tell from the match lists they release because they mix those who have matched into an advanced spot in with those who did not. This is done on purpose to mask this bad/undesirable outcome. What matters to them is that they get to count it toward their "placement rate" and they don't give a **** what happens with the rest of that student's career.

Not saying this doesn't happen at US MD schools. It certainly does but it's much less prevalent. Some chools even provide student names or group the advanced positon with the prelim position to make it possible to tell which prelim matches did not have an advanced position.

Please explain what you mean in more detail, because I am doubting this statement. Most DO lists from what I have seen show the details of if they matched into a PGY-1, whether it is medicine-preliminary, surgery-preliminary, transitional, or traditional rotating internship.

 

[Wordead]

You are correct, I don't know how they do it in India. Or China. Or Germany. Or Japan. Or the UK. But surely we can agree that it is highly inefficient to take, for example, an already trained and qualified neurosurgeon from Germany and expect him to complete a 6/7 year long residency in the US? Surely someone of that caliber with all the commensurate education, training, and experience should be able to perform to "US standards" after 5 years? Or 4? Or 2?

I mean, I love the US, and our medical education and training is top notch, but I know we ain't #1 in everything (except for % overweight, % diabetic, % incarcerated, and all the other bad stats that we normally associate with Mississippi). FMGs have a lot to offer, but complete retraining in their field of expertise is completely unnecessary.

Okay, so when said neurosurgeon has a bad outcome because the standard of care in his country is different from ours and both he and the hospital gets sued, do you hold him responsible? It's not his fault - he's following his training. Or if in his country he doesnt do X procedure because in his country it's done by ENT? Or he doesnt do any endovascular procedures because guess what they dont do that over there? What do you want to do then? Just give him all those training procedures and take them away from current trainees?

 

[Mad Jack]

Okay, so when said neurosurgeon has a bad outcome because the standard of care in his country is different from ours and both he and the hospital gets sued, do you hold him responsible? It's not his fault - he's following his training. Or if in his country he doesnt do X procedure because in his country it's done by ENT? Or he doesnt do any endovascular procedures because guess what they dont do that over there? What do you want to do then? Just give him all those training procedures and take them away from current trainees?

Meh, I think I'd be okay with a little more free market competition in medicine. If malpractice occurs, there's no reason they wouldn't be liable- malpractice laws don't differ because of deficits in one's training. let both the buyer and the provider beware.

As to procedural differences, that would have to be sorted out by the group hiring him, much as we have surgeons that are trained to do many things but often end up concentrationg in one area, or how we've got anesthesiologist groups where you'll have one guy that does nothing but peds/hearts/pain, or how we've got hospitalist groups where some guys do no procedures etc.

 

[DokterMom]

I agree. It would be US citizen (no matter what school/degree) vs. non-US citizen.

Again, I'm not in favor of changing the system we have. I just find it odd that people would think it's a silly notion to consider an alternative when pretty much no other country in the world would show "outsiders" similar treatment.

I suppose it's just like how we are expected to treat illegal immigrants here in the US like citizens and not expect them to show ID or whatnot whereas if a US citizen was caught in another country without ID you'd sure bet he/she would be in loads of trouble. Come to the US, we don't care about anything!

How are we supposed to treat illegal immigrants? With dignity - like all people.

Perhaps you could clarify how it is that we are supposed to identify illegal immigrants in order to ask them for ID so we can treat them differently? Not all illegal immigrants are non-white.

 

[Dustbowl12]

again, DO placement rate is 99%.....idk why this misleading thread and post was made

 

[memory tcells]

we ain't #1 in everything (except for % overweight, % diabetic, % incarcerated

Murica

 

[235009]

again, DO placement rate is 99%.....idk why this misleading thread and post was made

so much for nuance...

Please explain what you mean in more detail, because I am doubting this statement. Most DO lists from what I have seen show the details of if they matched into a PGY-1, whether it is medicine-preliminary, surgery-preliminary, transitional, or traditional rotating internship.

go look at the posted lists. They usually group prelim matches into one group and it's impossible to tell which are associated with an advanced position and which are not. Granted, this may be a result of trying to make the list anonymous and lack of understanding of the implications by whoever is posting the list but it's unclear. I'll find you an example.

 

[deleted564680]

How are we supposed to treat illegal immigrants? With dignity - like all people.

Perhaps you could clarify how it is that we are supposed to identify illegal immigrants in order to ask them for ID so we can treat them differently? Not all illegal immigrants are non-white.

This is an odd post...

You ask everyone to show ID and thus find out those who don't have it. No one said anything about poor treatment of people or white illegals. I said "treat them like citizens" - meaning all the benefits of being a citizen, which they are not...nothing to do with dignity or lack thereof. US citizen is a specific entity not a synonym for person.

My point was that if you're a US citizen travelling abroad, you sure as heck better have ID on you, but other countries label us racists or whatnot if we just ask to see IDs of people in our country.

 

[235009]

go look at the posted lists. They usually group prelim matches into one group and it's impossible to tell which are associated with an advanced position and which are not. Granted, this may be a result of trying to make the list anonymous and lack of understanding of the implications by whoever is posting the list but it's unclear. I'll find you an example.

So an example where this is done poorly is LECOM

Finally posted.

LECOM 2016 Placements:
http://lecom.edu/content/uploads/2016/05/2016-LECOM-Match-Summary.pdf

They list dozens of AOA and ACGME internships without telling you which matched into an advanced position

An example of where this is done well is AZCOM

Does this one work?

At this school it seems that 11 students matched into prelim/transitional/TRI year without matching into an advanced position

From what I've seen the majority of DO match lists I've seen are like LECOM's

 

[deleted564680]

So an example where this is done poorly is LECOM



They list dozens of AOA and ACGME internships without telling you which matched into an advanced position

An example of where this is done well is AZCOM



At this school it seems that 11 students matched into prelim/transitional/TRI year without matching into an advanced position

From what I've seen the majority of DO match lists I've seen are like LECOM's

LECOM doing something poorly??? No way!

You'd think that a medical school could get a simple match list correct but usually they pay some secretary who has no concept of the match or residency to post the match lists. The MD schools have just as many bad match lists out there.

 

[bumblebee611]

Where does it say in the Constitution that immigration is a right, or non-immigrant foreigners cannot be discriminated against?

What is a non-immigrant foreigner? If you're not an immigrant, how are you a foreigner?

 

[bumblebee611]

This is an odd post...

You ask everyone to show ID and thus find out those who don't have it. No one said anything about poor treatment of people or white illegals. I said "treat them like citizens" - meaning all the benefits of being a citizen, which they are not...nothing to do with dignity or lack thereof. US citizen is a specific entity not a synonym for person.

My point was that if you're a US citizen travelling abroad, you sure as heck better have ID on you, but other countries label us racists or whatnot if we just ask to see IDs of people in our country.

That's because "we" don't ask to the see the IDs of white people, and it ends up becoming an excuse to harass (or worse) brown people. Watch what happens when you're a brown US citizen and you travel internationally with your white, non-US citizen spouse, and come home to the US ... guess which member of the couple Homeland Security questions more intensely?

 

[bumblebee611]

Utterly false. US immigration policies were rather explicitly restrictive for the majority of this country's history, denoting the fact that while a certain level of immigration was deemed appropriate, there were fundamental assumptions about just what kind of immigration ought to be encourage and allowed.

You're right--Chinese exclusion, slavery, executing seven year olds, the Salem witch trials, let's make America great again. If the founders thought it was a good idea, it must have been. (That was sarcasm for anyone who was wondering.)

 

[deleted564680]

That's because "we" don't ask to the see the IDs of white people, and it ends up becoming an excuse to harass (or worse) brown people. Watch what happens when you're a brown US citizen and you travel internationally with your white, non-US citizen spouse, and come home to the US ... guess which member of the couple Homeland Security questions more intensely?

I have to show my ID all the time for various things and I'm white. In fact, I EXPECT to show my ID and am happy to do so. I'm not sure when asking someone for ID became harassment and this is exactly the point I was trying to make. If I go abroad to countries of "brown" people (your wording) - which I have, I always have to show ID and never once have thought "man, I'm really being harassed!"

You all are too sensitive. Everyone wants to play the victim. Use common sense. You have to have proof of ID. Every nation and all of their citizens should expect this.

Also, just an aside - I've been "randomly" chosen by TSA people for a more involved exam too, but I do fly a lot.

 

[deleted564680]

You're right--Chinese exclusion, slavery, executing seven year olds, the Salem witch trials, let's make America great again. If the founders thought it was a good idea, it must have been. (That was sarcasm for anyone who was wondering.)

lol You're welcome to leave the US at any time, sweetheart. I'm honestly sad for you if you truly don't believe the US is the greatest nation on Earth and has been for some time now.

 

[TheaterOfTheme]

So an example where this is done poorly is LECOM



They list dozens of AOA and ACGME internships without telling you which matched into an advanced position

I assumed all internships were 1 year...is this not the case? Looks like LECOM had around 50 students do traditional rotating and around 30 do a transitional year. Whats the difference between these? What else should they distinguish?

So that's around 80 without residency? That's pretty high...Most DO matches I have seen are much less.

 

[DrBowtie]

I assumed all internships were 1 year...is this not the case? Looks like LECOM had around 50 students do traditional rotating and around 30 do a transitional year. Whats the difference between these? What else should they distinguish?

So that's around 80 without residency? That's pretty high...Most DO matches I have seen are much less.

Most of those go on to advanced programs like radiology anesthesia ophtho etc. It's really only a bad sign if the person ONLY has the internship lined up. The problem is that lists are often not transparent with that data.

 

[TheaterOfTheme]

Most of those go on to advanced programs like radiology anesthesia ophtho etc. It's really only a bad sign if the person ONLY has the internship lined up. The problem is that lists are often not transparent with that data.

Oh I see! So some could be double counted. i.e. one person may have the internship AND the residency on the same match list?

 

[bumblebee611]

lol You're welcome to leave the US at any time, sweetheart. I'm honestly sad for you if you truly don't believe the US is the greatest nation on Earth and has been for some time now.

I have never said or believed that America is anything but terrific. It's Donald Trump who thinks we're not currently great. Are you a fan of his, little boy? Time to run outside and play now that you've had your troll time from mommy's basement.

 

[Animalcules]

lol You're welcome to leave the US at any time, sweetheart. I'm honestly sad for you if you truly don't believe the US is the greatest nation on Earth and has been for some time now.

This sounds more like a religious belief system than anything else- in which case there is no room for argument, is there?

I find it quite exceptional how people pretend that if they visit a foreign country, they are regularly IDed at random and discriminated against. Either you guys have never travelled outside the US or you planned you last vacation in North Korea (in which case I agree, things can be pretty harsh for Americans). If you want to compare US customs/ policing to other civilized countries, well guess who has the smoother sail?

 

[deleted564680]

I have never said or believed that America is anything but terrific. It's Donald Trump who thinks we're not currently great. Are you a fan of his, little boy? Time to run outside and play now that you've had your troll time from mommy's basement.

I have to admit, this made me laugh.

This sounds more like a religious belief system than anything else- in which case there is no room for argument, is there?

I find it quite exceptional how people pretend that if they visit a foreign country, they are regularly IDed at random and discriminated against. Either you guys have never travelled outside the US or you planned you last vacation in North Korea (in which case I agree, things can be pretty harsh for Americans). If you want to compare US customs/ policing to other civilized countries, well guess who has the smoother sail?

It's not a religious belief, I just didn't want to list the myriad reasons why the US is currently and has been a great country for a long time now. I don't quite understand why so many people still live in the US if they dislike it so much. But hey, that's the joy of this country - we are all free to spout nonsense on forums because we have nothing better to do since our lives are so great otherwise.

We were discussing being ID'd if you were stopped by police or had a reason to be ID'd. Nothing about being randomly ID'd.

 

[Rekt]

again, DO placement rate is 99%.....idk why this misleading thread and post was made

It's because the Allo forum has realized that IMG bashing is finally beating a dead horse. Time to move onto DOs.

 

[235009]

Oh I see! So some could be double counted. i.e. one person may have the internship AND the residency on the same match list?

correct

 

[WilliamofOckham]

You're right--Chinese exclusion, slavery, executing seven year olds, the Salem witch trials, let's make America great again. If the founders thought it was a good idea, it must have been. (That was sarcasm for anyone who was wondering.)

Oh, the illogic. It's actually painful.

First of all, the consensus that America should be a majority-European country extended well beyond the lifetimes of the founders. It also outstripped the period during which slavery was legal in the country. The immigration upheaval of 1965 was passed with the promise that the country's demographics would not be turned on their head; an abject lie, of course, but a demonstration of the fact that Americans had not (and still never have, for what it's worth) voted to become racial minorities in their own country.

Next, the inconvenient truth is is that this intention - for America to maintain its racial majority - has been buttressed by modern sociological study, and any honest appraisal of the situation in this country and European ones leads one to the inescapable conclusion that the Founders were right on this issue.

Which brings me to my last point: while they were undoubtedly wrong in some of their positions, this in no way invalidates others that they held. You have employed an ad hominem, and this will not fly in serious intellectual debate. Try harder.

I actually feel a bit embarrassed for your (future) school's AdCom.