[2019-2020] Emergency Medicine Application Thread

[TTPpentad]

Anyone hear of people matching at a place they got a late invite from?

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[gamerEMdoc]

Of course. Once your foot is in the door, you’re competing with everyone else that interviewed. You may not have initially gotten an interview because of something completely unrelated to your competitiveness. Maybe your SLOEs weren’t initially in. Or initially you were screened out for geographic purposes. Whatever. But once you’ve interviewed, you are competing with everyone else.

 

[longtimelurker2015]

@gamerEMdoc ,real/honest question here: After we match, once we decide to post a ROL here, how honest should we be? I personally have found ROL lists with honest pro-con impressions to be the single best source of advice of just about any resource this interview season (even higher than advisor opinions or anything else). So I want to pay it forward and provide/share honest real opinions to future applicants. I would NEVER call out / identify a specific individual by name, but, let's be real, how honest should we actually be? What if we had a HORRIBLE impression at a program, should we describe it as is, or censor it somehow? Your advice and experience are much appreciated, thanks!

 

[gamerEMdoc]

@gamerEMdoc ,real/honest question here: After we match, once we decide to post a ROL here, how honest should we be? I personally have found ROL lists with honest pro-con impressions to be the single best source of advice of just about any resource this interview season (even higher than advisor opinions or anything else). So I want to pay it forward and provide/share honest real opinions to future applicants. I would NEVER call out / identify a specific individual by name, but, let's be real, how honest should we actually be? What if we had a HORRIBLE impression at a program, should we describe it as is, or censor it somehow? Your advice and experience are much appreciated, thanks!

Brutally honest IMO. First, its anonymous. Its not coming back on you. Second, even if for some reason someone identified you, who cares. You matched, it still can't come back on you. Its the only way for next years candidates to have a good idea about the positives/negatives of programs.

I say this as someone who's program can/will be discussed on these lists, and I take what is said about my program to heart to try and change whatever I can. I think as long as the feedback is honest and constructive, as opposed to just being vindictive, then its fair game to speak your mind. For instance, last year someone posted something about how our pre-interview dinner was arranged that I had no idea about. Apparently the restaurant wasn't setting up chairs, just a table to mingle around. I would have no idea this silly setup was going on had someone not posted about being annoyed by it here. Simple fix this year, all because someone was annoyed by it and posted about it.

Every year I try to make the point that if someone is holding back an eval of my program just because I post here, please don't. Its valuable info for me to know what we do well and what we can improve on. I mean, I'd also hope that if there was something absolutely horrible, someone would tell me well before it got to posting anonymously online.

Short story... Post Away!

 

[The Knife & Gun Club]

So last night I had the distinct honor of attending an OBGYN interview social. Holy mother of god. I’ve never been so happy I picked EM. Everyone was board rigid talking about nothing - any time I tried to say anything I got the stink eye from every resident in earshot.

At one point a PGY4 said she was going to work at a private practice, rather than fellowship. “That’s awesome, make that PP money!” I said jokingly. Now I admit this may have been a bit too casual, but man. This girl looked at me like I’d just uttered a racial slur. “WE do NOT speak about medicine that way at THIS program!” And then she stormed off. Suffice to say my fiancé was not happy with my performance.

At another point, an applicant asked what their hours were like. The resident responded with “we work the hours necessary to become excellent physicians” and then stonewalled the poor applicant for the rest of the night, literally refusing to acknowledge or respond to anything the girl said or asked.

All this is to say I never fully appreciated how hierarchical and malignant some other residencies can get. I may’ve had a few awkward dinners in EM, but everyone I met ultimately came off as good people who’d be fine to work with. I guess we just take that for granted in this field.

 

[gamerEMdoc]

So last night I had the distinct honor of attending an OBGYN interview social. Holy mother of god. I’ve never been so happy I picked EM. Everyone was board rigid talking about nothing - any time I tried to say anything I got the stink eye from every resident in earshot.

At one point a PGY4 said she was going to work at a private practice, rather than fellowship. “That’s awesome, make that PP money!” I said jokingly. Now I admit this may have been a bit too casual, but man. This girl looked at me like I’d just uttered a racial slur. “WE do NOT speak about medicine that way at THIS program!” And then she stormed off. Suffice to say my fiancé was not happy with my performance.

At another point, an applicant asked what their hours were like. The resident responded with “we work the hours necessary to become excellent physicians” and then stonewalled the poor applicant for the rest of the night, literally refusing to acknowledge or respond to anything the girl said or asked.

All this is to say I never fully appreciated how hierarchical and malignant some other residencies can get. I may’ve had a few awkward dinners in EM, but everyone I met ultimately came off as good people who’d be fine to work with. I guess we just take that for granted in this field.

No doubt EM is one of the more laid back fields. But I'm sure this is also an institutional thing. I hang out with residents in our FP and Surgery programs from time to time at various social events. I can't imagine any of them not being down to earth individuals in a social setting like a pre-interview dinner. So I'm sure there are plenty of non-EM residency programs out there that are more down to earth.

 

[Listen2Savage]

So last night I had the distinct honor of attending an OBGYN interview social. Holy mother of god. I’ve never been so happy I picked EM. Everyone was board rigid talking about nothing - any time I tried to say anything I got the stink eye from every resident in earshot.

At one point a PGY4 said she was going to work at a private practice, rather than fellowship. “That’s awesome, make that PP money!” I said jokingly. Now I admit this may have been a bit too casual, but man. This girl looked at me like I’d just uttered a racial slur. “WE do NOT speak about medicine that way at THIS program!” And then she stormed off. Suffice to say my fiancé was not happy with my performance.

At another point, an applicant asked what their hours were like. The resident responded with “we work the hours necessary to become excellent physicians” and then stonewalled the poor applicant for the rest of the night, literally refusing to acknowledge or respond to anything the girl said or asked.

All this is to say I never fully appreciated how hierarchical and malignant some other residencies can get. I may’ve had a few awkward dinners in EM, but everyone I met ultimately came off as good people who’d be fine to work with. I guess we just take that for granted in this field.

jesus bro

thats funny tho

probably would have laughed in that chicks face lol

 

[Docjaysw]

Hi all,

I don't tend to go on sdn much because there tends to be more negativity on the site than I'd prefer, and all to often one topic gets turned into something negative and unrelated within a few posts. Despite that, seeing this reminds me of when I went through the process and so I thought I'd take the risk of people tearing apart my opinion/me and give my insight for whatever its worth in hopes it helps a few people. My background: I'm a PD, worked in multiple states, held various academic roles at multiple programs, and worked for groups that were the traditional small democratic model to national groups.

EM is full of great programs, EM residents get good training, and programs don't tend to be malignant. With how strong the RRC-EM is and how strict RRC-EM / ACGME guidelines are, EM programs don't just 'slide through'. From my standpoint, including long before I was in this role / at this program, matching with an EM program is about a personality fit. Take a look at the ACGME's program requirements for EM, don't just believe me or someone else, the requirements to get a residency approved are online, as are frequently asked questions about the guidelines. Either you have the critical care volume by their definition or you don't. You can demonstrate you have the procedural volume or you can't. Programs applying for a new program status have to demonstrate everything to even get approved, so even brand new programs are expected to meet full standards before they are allowed to accept residents.

I'll give examples of things outside personality fit that some people get focused on and wonder if they should rank higher even if they didn't like the program as much:
-I know people talk about how certain programs have lower or higher volume. Really, as long as you find residents have patients to see and aren't just sitting around, it doens't matter what the volume is. A program that sees 60k may only have a few residents on at a time to make sure they always have patients to see, while a program that sees 100k may have off-service residents and midlevels, but still have patients to be seen.
-Take the 'level 1' trauma center discussion that occurs at times. The actual difference between levels of trauma center are fairly clear if you take a look at the orange book of trauma (actually called resources for optimal care of the injured patient, easy to search / find). One site may be missing the publications/research or trauma senior surgical residents at an unopposed EM training site and be a level 2 instead of level 1. Further, the requirements set by the RRC-EM are met one way or another. From personal experience, one of the sites I worked at that was not ACS accredited had more (indicated) thoracotomies than either of the level 1s I've worked at.
-There are constant discussions about the national staffing groups and the for profit hospitals. I can remember a decade ago when if you went to train at a site staffed by ______ (insert any group such as EMCare, TH, EMP, EPMG, etc...) that you wouldn't get good training. I vividly remember being told at one point I was committing "career suicide" by choosing the residency I did. Now that the groups are staffing more training sites it seems that argument isn't heard as much and it tends to be health systems / hospital chains that get called out. I'm sure in 10 more years it'll be something new that is called out. Again, all of us then, and residents now, still get good training, just different personalities.
-Even the idea of off-services is a bit personality based. If your personality / belief is to learn ortho and ortho procedures from the ortho boarded / training experts then there are programs that believe that, while other people may think its best to learn ortho issues in the ED from EM boarded individuals. Similar to the 3 vs 4 year programs, there isn't a right or wrong, if there was then we probably all would have shifted to one pattern.

With that said, if someone wants to send a thank you, or a #1 email, then so be it. If you aren't worried about it or don't want to and a program thinks less of you for it, then your personality probably wouldn't have led to as good of an experience for 3 years there as a program that didn't care that you didn't send a thank you.

I leave my full interview time to let the candidate ask me questions and let other faculty ask questions during their interview timeslots. I know each candidates name from reviewing their pictures, and can usually recall most of the relevant facts from an application, so its not that I don't have anything I'd be interested about, just my personality to do things that way. I can tell some people get annoyed by me not having something to ask them / letting them know I'll keep asking if they have any other questions until they say no, while others go well over the 15 minutes we have as a timeslot asking questions and seem to like the way I set it up.

Another prime example: Some programs either aren't allowed or won't interview people from other specialties or prior training, while some of us commonly interview / review those apps. Some programs are not okay or interested in people coming from different paths to EM, some of us don't mind it.

Even interview dates or SLOEs: Some programs finish interviewing by early January, or require multiple SLOEs. Others have spots for the hidden gems or for late switches of students from schools that didn't have EM exposure until later in their 4th year. I know I've saved ~20 February spots to interview people that are told its too late to try to match into emergency medicine, that want to switch to emergency medicine because they didn't realize they love it and didn't get their first exposure until December of January of M4, and the hidden gems that I get a call or note about from docs I know. Why wouldn't I, considering my first chair did a full IM residency because he didn't get exposure to EM in med school to know that EM was his calling and has been a leader in the specialty nationally, and since I trained under people in the field who started in neuro, have friends that did a full FM residency, or had to scramble to an EM slot because they didn't match EM. With that said, some programs don't feel that way, and that is okay too.

As a final thought to share: I don't ask it, so I'm not trying to justify or anything like that, but when someone asks the repeated 'why EM' or 'why here' it may be more to figure you out than someone not reading/knowing you. What is your body language like? Is your answer similar to what you put on your application? If you get irritated about it, realize how the other side of the table feels when you ask what makes their program special, didn't you look up about the program or listen to their spiel? You probably had a reason to ask, as did they.

I expect there are people that don't agree and want to share their own opinion or experience. My only ask is to keep any responses directly to my post framed as helpful to the students who are looking for advice or insight and avoid the negativity that sometimes plagues these discussions.

Thanks

 

[Apollyon]

I don't tend to go on sdn much because there tends to be more negativity on the site than I'd prefer

Two posts in two days about how you avoid SDN due to "negativity". Ok, noted. However, to only want positive responses? You can't control the narrative.

 

[gamerEMdoc]

I don't tend to go on sdn much because there tends to be more negativity on the site than I'd prefer,

I don’t get the view that SDN is filled with negativity to be honest. The “negative” feedback I’ve gotten about my own program is usually constructive, and for the most part, everyone is typically positive. Since I’ve been posting here for several years now, I’ve never felt that this forum has been a negative place to post or seek info about EM. There’s definitely constructive debate. There’s definitely calling out the negative aspects of EM and practices of some residencies. But its not a generally negative discussion here. I actually think its a place filled with a ton of decent information for people wanting to apply to EM. I personally refer students without good sound advisors looking for info about EM here all the time, while also providing them with resources from CORD.

 

[gutonc]

I don’t get the view that SDN is filled with negativity to be honest. The “negative” feedback I’ve gotten about my own program is usually constructive, and for the most part, everyone is typically positive. Since I’ve been posting here for several years now, I’ve never felt that this forum has been a negative place to post or seek info about EM. There’s definitely constructive debate. There’s definitely calling out the negative aspects of EM and practices of some residencies. But its not a generally negative discussion here. I actually think its a place filled with a ton of decent information for people wanting to apply to EM. I personally refer students without good sound advisors looking for info about EM here all the time, while also providing them with resources from CORD.

Ever notice the people complaining about how negative (or some other complaint) SDN is either have single digit post counts or accounts that are all of 45 seconds old?

Look...SDN is a "place" in the universe. The universe is not all puppies and rainbows. Ipso facto, SDN is not all puppies and rainbows. But saying it's all negative is just lazy.

 

[bg1414]

Sorry for the long post, but this has been weighing on my mind a lot recently.

I am having a really tough time deciding where to rank a certain program and go back and forth all the time on it. My gut tells me I like it and would be happy there and get a good education, but discussions with other interviewees and online threads really seem to bash it. I'm hoping to get some general advice both from current applicants but also residents and attendings on what they would’ve prioritized in a program looking back.

The program I am talking about is a somewhat new EM program (less than 7 years old) about 25 minutes away from where my wife, son, and I currently live and would stay during residency (45 minutes with rush hour traffic which residents told me most shifts avoid). On the interview day I liked the program and felt like it fit a lot of what I was looking for (diverse patient populations, good trauma variety, good peds/ICU, etc.) and that residents get a solid education. Similar impression at the resident dinner that evening. I also got to do a shift there and residents seemed up to par with other places I’ve rotated at and are supported by attendings, so I don’t really have too much concern about quality of education. And they also mentioned their schedules which seem pretty nice and would fit well with my commute and ability to maintain a decent family life (by residency standards). My only concern was that the department/hospital was recently bought by a for-profit company, which obviously gives me some reason to pause. Residents said there were a few hiccups initially with losing some faculty but overall not much has changed in terms of work hours, requirements, education, etc.

However, talking with fellow applicants at my school and people online everyone seems to really dislike the program. One of the biggest complaints was disorganization of interview day, which I admit the day was pretty long and disorganized, though I spoke with someone who rotated there and he said that it didn’t really reflect his experience. Another is lack of resident interaction on the interview day and at the dinner, though for my day it seemed pretty good (couple residents at lunch and maybe 6-8 at dinner). I could see other days possibly being worse though because it is a pretty small program so if residents just happened to be busy, then turn out could look pretty pathetic. Lastly, one of the other complaints is obviously the for-profit company buying the hospital, which overall is probably my biggest worry. I was able to talk to one of the residents off the record and he mentioned the loss of a couple well-liked faculty, but other than that said he didn’t see much change otherwise and that he was actually looking to stay on there once he graduates.

So overall my biggest question is how much to weigh commute and ability to have the lifestyle/family life I want outside the hospital with concerns about disorganization within the program and the uncertainty of the for-profit takeover. The other program I am weighing this one against is more established and about an hour away from where we live so the commute would suck and I might have to find a place to stay for more intense months like ICU. But I really liked this further away program and felt like I gelled well with the residents, and the faculty seemed very supportive. Overall, I think the education at the two programs would be pretty similar, so my main dilemma is will the better fit with the residents and support of the faculty make up for the longer commute and increased stress in my family life when compared to the closer program? And also how concerning is this for-profit buying of the hospital of the closer program?

TLDR; Other interviewees don't seem to like a program I want to rank highly. Is this a red flag?

 

[Apollyon]

Didn't you post this somewhere else? But, then, it appears that you deleted the other one.

 

[medhopeful82]

When should we expect our residency program to begin? Trying to plan a early June vacation and not sure what time I should make sure to be back by?

 

[The Knife & Gun Club]

When should we expect our residency program to begin? Trying to plan a early June vacation and not sure what time I should make sure to be back by?

The earliest place I’ve seen starts June 1st. Most places are around the 2-3rd week of June

 

[gamerEMdoc]

I think you will be safe before mid June at the majority of places.

 

[Shmoclo]

is it possible you won’t match based on how your rank your programs? Like should you rank the most likely programs first rather than your favorite since you don’t think you have a shot?

 

[Listen2Savage]

is it possible you won’t match based on how your rank your programs? Like should you rank the most likely programs first rather than your favorite since you don’t think you have a shot?

320 × 262

 

[gamerEMdoc]

is it possible you won’t match based on how your rank your programs? Like should you rank the most likely programs first rather than your favorite since you don’t think you have a shot?

No. That's not how the match works. Ranking programs based on your likeliness to match there doesn't make you more likely to match. Lets say your #6 program has your ranked #1 and you know that. If you move them to your #1, you'll match obviously. But if you leave them at #6, you'll still match there, unless one of your top 5 choices is a match first.

Its in your interest to rank the programs in the order you want them. Not by some perception of how likely it is you will match there.

 

[Rekt]

is it possible you won’t match based on how your rank your programs? Like should you rank the most likely programs first rather than your favorite since you don’t think you have a shot?

I honestly don't understand how people going through the match don't understand how it works. Its incredibly simple.

Rank programs based on your preference.

It doesn't matter what they think of you. Not a single piece of post IV communication matters. It doesn't matter if you screwed up an interview. It doesn't matter if you think you're non competitive for a program or that you think you're ranked low, etc.

Nothing else matters besides where you want to go.

 

[gamerEMdoc]

Nothing else matters besides where you want to go.

The one caveat to this is, some people do want to end up at a place that really wants them there. Some people need to know they were wanted. So I guess if that is something that is super important to you, then I guess maybe then things like post-IV communication could effect your list. But none of this SHOULD effect your list if you take emotion out of it and are looking at this as strictly as ranking the best programs for you to match at.

The ideal match process would be students ranking programs how they want them. Programs ranking students how they want them. And then let the algorithm decide. That's how the match is designed. All the psychological gamesmanship of post-IV communication really shouldn't effect either side. But it does, at least to some extent with some parties. Which is frustrating.

 

[TheSingularity]

Post interview communication is garbage and really should not be allowed

Sent from my Pixel 3 using SDN mobile

 

[gamerEMdoc]

Post interview communication is garbage and really should not be allowed

Sent from my Pixel 3 using SDN mobile

I agree, but its impossible to ban and even if you did impossible to enforce. For instance, I stay in contact with some applicants who rotated with me all year long after they rotated when they email asking for advice about interview/application stuff. Some post interview. That has nothing to do with recruiting them to our program, but is technically post-IV communication. So at that point, could you not advise someone after they have interviewed at your site?

And I say it’s impossible to enforce because even as it stands there are programs that ask “illegal” questions, programs that flat out ask where are you ranking them, candidates that do the same. These are punishable by loss of match eligibility, which is an extreme punishment, yet how often do you see that being handed down? Rarely? Ever? Its because neither side is really interested in reporting the opposite side when a violation does occur. And if you didn’t have it in writing, who would want to get sucked into a ”he said she said” investigation by the NRMP if you reported something that was verbally said to you.

All in all, I agree that post-IV communication is silly, but I don’t see an easy way for it to go away by policing it further. The way to make it go away is to have it stop working. Students and programs alike wouldn’t do it if it didn’t work to at least some degree. Stop changing your lists based on what people tell you. That’s the logical way to go. Thats how I try and handle our match list. Students should do the same. If everyone stopped caring about post-IV communication, then it would go away.

 

[imascrubMD]

Ugh, I just realized I didn't send in my 2nd away rotation SLOE from October to several competitive programs I already interviewed at. For these programs, I sent in my home (with NO affiliated EM residency) and 1st away rotation (with affiliated EM residency) SLOEs, which are probably top 10% or 30%, and it was enough to grant me an interview so I forgot to update them with my latest SLOE. I have no clue what it says, though I honored the rotation and received mostly positive feedback with no problems during the away (though I was getting tired towards then end of it). Should I still send in this SLOE and contact these programs to let them know about this as it might affect my rank? It never came up during those interviews...

I read through CordEM and EMRA which recommend only 2 SLOEs, but doesn't specify if these SLOEs have to be from programs with EM-affiliated residencies, in which case I currently only have 1 uploaded. Thanks so much in advance!

 

[Rekt]

Ugh, I just realized I didn't send in my 2nd away rotation SLOE from October to several competitive programs I already interviewed at. For these programs, I sent in my home (with NO affiliated EM residency) and 1st away rotation (with affiliated EM residency) SLOEs, which are probably top 10% or 30%, and it was enough to grant me an interview so I forgot to update them with my latest SLOE. I have no clue what it says, though I honored the rotation and received mostly positive feedback with no problems during the away (though I was getting tired towards then end of it). Should I still send in this SLOE and contact these programs to let them know about this as it might affect my rank? It never came up during those interviews...

I read through CordEM and EMRA which recommend only 2 SLOEs, but doesn't specify if these SLOEs have to be from programs with EM-affiliated residencies, in which case I currently only have 1 uploaded. Thanks so much in advance!

NonEM SLOEs are worthless. You essentially have one. You might as well update the places that gave you an interview. Too late for anything else though as most places are done interviewing.

 

[House911MD]

What's the best way on SDN to find impressions/info on programs? Tried searching program names and I either get nothing or non-EM programs at thosesame hospitals

 

[mancub]

What's the best way on SDN to find impressions/info on programs? Tried searching program names and I either get nothing or non-EM programs at thosesame hospitals

There is a review thread on the front page of the EM forum. Otherwise searching past years ROL thread

 

[doggydog]

There is a review thread on the front page of the EM forum. Otherwise searching past years ROL thread

These reviews are overwhelmingly outdated. I would caution any applicant from judging based on what was written in many of those program review threads.

 

[gamerEMdoc]

These reviews are overwhelmingly outdated. I would caution any applicant from judging based on what was written in many of those program review threads.

Totally agree there. I think I read a review once of my program from nearly a decade ago when it was half the size and the info was unrecognizable.

 

[boolin_1]

quick question on how to break the regional bias.

I know that geography matters when applying because you're more likely to get some love from where you grew up. I am from florida and I want out of florida. how do I show commitment to my new area on my application?

also I will be couples matching with someone from the northeast. how would I show programs in the northeast that a guy from florida will fully commit to that area? is there a way to indicate this on the application?

 

[gamerEMdoc]

quick question on how to break the regional bias.

I know that geography matters when applying because you're more likely to get some love from where you grew up. I am from florida and I want out of florida. how do I show commitment to my new area on my application?

also I will be couples matching with someone from the northeast. how would I show programs in the northeast that a guy from florida will fully commit to that area? is there a way to indicate this on the application?

Well, you could write it in your PS that you send to NE programs (and exclude that from programs you apply to not in the NE). Rotate and get SLOEs in the region you want to match helps as well.

Also, in the hometown section, you aren't limited to what you write, and some people are less than ethical about this. I've had people list 4 hometowns across the US, and when asked said things like well, my uncle lives there. That's a stretch and personally I find that to be absurd and manipulative. But I'm not sure anyone would fault you in the couples match to list both your and your significant others hometown in your application section, since both will come into play with your match list. I wouldn't hold that against a candidate at all, and personally, I think that's important info to know in that specific situation.

 

[skip459]

Gamer, quick question for you. Does doing a 2nd look at a program automatically make them believe you will be ranking them #1 for the match? I am doing a 2nd look at my top 2 programs, and I don't want to burn any bridges if the program I end up ranking #2 ranks me highly, and I end up where I ranked #1 instead (hypothetically speaking).

 

[Rekt]

Gamer, quick question for you. Does doing a 2nd look at a program automatically make them believe you will be ranking them #1 for the match? I am doing a 2nd look at my top 2 programs, and I don't want to burn any bridges if the program I end up ranking #2 ranks me highly, and I end up where I ranked #1 instead (hypothetically speaking).

Not everyone can be first. Second looks can be interpreted in many ways. Maybe they think you're really interested or maybe they think you're hesitant about the program or maybe they don't care. At my program we're told to show them as much as possible and help them anyway we can. We think positively of it of you're giving up time and money to come back but wouldn't bent out of shape if someone didn't match with us.

 

[gamerEMdoc]

Gamer, quick question for you. Does doing a 2nd look at a program automatically make them believe you will be ranking them #1 for the match? I am doing a 2nd look at my top 2 programs, and I don't want to burn any bridges if the program I end up ranking #2 ranks me highly, and I end up where I ranked #1 instead (hypothetically speaking).

Second looks don't mean anything to me personally because some students do second looks everywhere they interview, some do none. It doesn't tell me anything. So I don't read anything into them other than acknowledging the person is interested in our program. Which is why they interviewed with us in the first place. So ultimately it doesn't really add anything for me. For the student, if they feel like its necessary to get more info for them, then I'm fine with them doing a second look, but I flat out tell people that inquire about it during the interview that its purely for the own knowledge gathering and we don't give "extra credit" to people that do second looks. I just don't want anyone to think they need to in order to show interest or indicate we are a top program on the students list, interview season is costly enough, the last thing I want is students thinking they need to go back to every single place they interviewed at in order to match there.

I rarely think students doing second looks are doing them actually to learn more. I'm convinced most of them are doing them "to show interest" or try and boost their rank chances. Personally, if I made the match rules, I'd outlaw 2nd looks for this reason. I just think it pressures some students into doing them when its completely unnecessary.

 

[midwestisbest]

The earliest place I’ve seen starts June 1st. Most places are around the 2-3rd week of June

The spreadsheet has a start date column but it's entirely empty. Is there a better source for this info/central aggregation of start dates? Also, if they have ACLS certification a week early, but you're already certified, would programs let you miss that bit, do people think?

 

[Enik]

Anyone have a link to the EM rank list thread? As stated earlier, I trust the pros/cons of that list more than I trust my School's advisers.

 

[Stephanopolous]

I doubt that one has been started yet since only two people have filled the form out, one of which, didn't leave any specific comments on each program.

EDIT: once I get a few more responses, I'll start the thread up
EDIT: it's up

 

[gamerEMdoc]

I doubt that one has been started yet since only two people have filled the form out, one of which, didn't leave any specific comments on each program.

EDIT: once I get a few more responses, I'll start the thread up
EDIT: it's up

 

[Forever_Blessed]

I doubt that one has been started yet since only two people have filled the form out, one of which, didn't leave any specific comments on each program.

EDIT: once I get a few more responses, I'll start the thread up
EDIT: it's up

Do you mean the excel spreadsheet is up or an actual thread on SDN? I can’t find a ROL thread yet

 

[Stephanopolous]

Do you mean the excel spreadsheet is up or an actual thread on SDN? I can’t find a ROL thread yet

[2019-2020] Emergency Medicine Rank Order List Thread

Per SDN tradition, here is this year's Rank Order List (ROL) thread. There two ways in which you may participate: By using your SDN account and directly replying to this thread By using the anonymous FORM created for this thread. No SDN or email account required. (Note: Some newer programs may...

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[House911MD]

Is there a minimum required number of vacation days for residents? Most programs seem to give 15 and/or 21 days but I came across some that only give 10 and then heard a few people say that may be against ACGME rules. However, when I tried to look this up on ACGME or online...couldn't really find anything. @gamerEMdoc or others?

 

[gamerEMdoc]

As far as I know there are no vacation requirements other than that institutions have to include their vacation policy in the resident contract. I would imagine that 3-4 week blocks is pretty common.

 

[AnonymousJourneyman]

gamerEMdoc and friends,

I have narrowed my list down to a top 4. I would be ecstatic at any of them and had good vibes with the residents/faculty/culture at all of them. However, I do have questions about the city at program A and the acuity at program B and am planning to go on late (after most/all programs have held their rank meetings) second looks to gather more information before making my decision. Since I'm doing 2 late second looks, I was not going to send a number 1 email as I'd be making my decision after programs have already held their meetings (and it would therefore not sway their opinion). However, residents at programs C and D (the 2 that I'm not doing a second look at) have offered to contact their PD on my behalf IF I let them know that I'm serious about going there/plan to send a number 1 email. Now I'm feeling pressured to just decide now in order to possibly have residents at least at program C or D vouch for me as an applicant before going on the 2 second looks (eliminating them from contention for my number 1 spot). If I sent a number 1 email I'd honor that commitment.

-I understand my letter of intent will likely not sway a PD much.
-However, how much would a letter of intent along with strong support from current residents at a program influence a PD's decision?

Thanks.

 

[gamerEMdoc]

Strong support of residents definitely helps, but...

Residents that say they will support you as an applicant only If you tell them you are ranking them #1 are (probably unwittingly) committing an NRMP match violation. Programs can’t solicit from the candidate where they plan to be ranked. You can’t do that.

But if you are worried and feel like you must cave to their match violation pressures, I’d suggest sending an email to those programs just saying you know programs will be having their rank list meetings soon, and while you haven’t finalized your list yet, you intend on ranking their program very highly.

 

[biggimpin]

Deciding between a couple places towards the top of my ROL and I was wondering what the importance of the percentage of teaching and non-teaching faculty is in terms of quality of resident education. One of the programs I really like because of location and patient population has a larger percentage of non-teaching faculty than the others. I am wondering if this should be a bigger factor in my decisions or whether the majority of "education" comes from learning on the job by doing, regardless of teaching vs non-teaching faculty. I'm more interested in community medicine in my career so "moving up the ivory tower" isn't really a factor for me.

Thanks!

 

[CyrilFiggis]

I’ve decided to email each PD and tell them I’ve ranked them to match.

 

[gamerEMdoc]

Deciding between a couple places towards the top of my ROL and I was wondering what the importance of the percentage of teaching and non-teaching faculty is in terms of quality of resident education. One of the programs I really like because of location and patient population has a larger percentage of non-teaching faculty than the others. I am wondering if this should be a bigger factor in my decisions or whether the majority of "education" comes from learning on the job by doing, regardless of teaching vs non-teaching faculty. I'm more interested in community medicine in my career so "moving up the ivory tower" isn't really a factor for me.

Thanks!

I had some great clinical (or non-teaching) faculty as a resident. They just had no interest in doing research or scholarly activity, but were great clinicians and great teaching attendings on shift. I personally wouldn't put a lot of weight into the percentage of clinical vs core faculty.

 

[STEMI_voy]

I’m going to a second look next weekend. Should I take it on good faith that this a neutral event, meaning that the program’s rank is set and I’m legit just learning more about the program? I’m more so concerned about dropping rank than moving up (they’ve sent me a RTM email).

 

[biggimpin]

I had some great clinical (or non-teaching) faculty as a resident. They just had no interest in doing research or scholarly activity, but were great clinicians and great teaching attendings on shift. I personally wouldn't put a lot of weight into the percentage of clinical vs core faculty.

Thanks! Do you think it is different at a newer program where a lot of the non-teaching faculty are community docs who never intended to get into teaching? Or is there still something to learn from the way these attendings work even if they don't break everything down on shifts and going into long explanations?

 

[Forever_Blessed]

I rotated at a new community EM program and i could definitely tell the difference between non teaching faculty who had probably been out of an academic setting for several years. The level of explanation and reasoning was just not there. Albeit I’m sure they were excellent clinicians, but the teaching aspect just wasn’t adequate in my opinion. But there was core faculty, & they took the time to teach.

Thanks! Do you think it is different at a newer program where a lot of the non-teaching faculty are community docs who never intended to get into teaching? Or is there still something to learn from the way these attendings work even if they don't break everything down on shifts and going into long explanations?