[2019-2020] Emergency Medicine Application Thread

[The Knife & Gun Club]

Whats the consensus on interview thank you notes again? I know it’s been answered a million times but I’m lazy right now

I just email the PD and say thanks for having me for the day.

No sense in flooding 5 people’s inboxes with “thanks I loved talking to you about EMS research opportunities!”

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[gamerEMdoc]

Hey GamerEMDoc, was wondering if you knew when the majority of interview invitation ends (is it late January when typically the last batch is sent out? or are there instances where invites could still be sent out early February?) I am currently planning for time out of the country in Feb and just don't want to miss any invites in case they are still sent that late.

Thanks!

This info isn't really published anywhere, but I'd be hard pressed to believe there are many programs out there interviewing into February. My gut tells me most finish in mid-January. There were years we were done by the end of December. All depends on the size of the program (which affects the number you are interviewing). If you are only planning on interviewing 60 people, you can easily do that by December. We typically shoot for interviewing 80-90, figuring there will be some cancellations we can't fill and some DNRs, so we can reach our goal of ranking 80ish people. Typically that takes us to the first or 2nd week of January.

 

[boolin_1]

what are the golden months of interviewing? I am trying to schedule my away rotations at the places i'd love to match, and i'm trying to focus them on
non-interviewing months so I won't look bad if I have to leave (granted I actually get interviews).

and then the golden months, i'll just do radiology or something at my home institution

 

[Sterling_Archer]

what are the golden months of interviewing? I am trying to schedule my away rotations at the places i'd love to match, and i'm trying to focus them on
non-interviewing months so I won't look bad if I have to leave (granted I actually get interviews).

and then the golden months, i'll just do radiology or something at my home institution

Do your aways as early as possible after your home rotation so that you can get your SLOEs by the time ERAS opens. Some will interview you there and some will wait to interview you during interview season. I had the majority of my interviews during November and December.

 

[mancub]

what are the golden months of interviewing? I am trying to schedule my away rotations at the places i'd love to match, and i'm trying to focus them on
non-interviewing months so I won't look bad if I have to leave (granted I actually get interviews).

and then the golden months, i'll just do radiology or something at my home institution

Earliest you’d probably get an invite is late October. Latest is mid January. Most of mine are Nov and Dec.

 

[boolin_1]

Do your aways as early as possible after your home rotation so that you can get your SLOEs by the time ERAS opens. Some will interview you there and some will wait to interview you during interview season. I had the majority of my interviews during November and December.

Earliest you’d probably get an invite is late October. Latest is mid January. Most of mine are Nov and Dec.

thanks guys.

 

[gamerEMdoc]

what are the golden months of interviewing? I am trying to schedule my away rotations at the places i'd love to match, and i'm trying to focus them on
non-interviewing months so I won't look bad if I have to leave (granted I actually get interviews).

and then the golden months, i'll just do radiology or something at my home institution

Oct-January, with the majority of interviews at places you didn't rotate at coming in Nov-Dec since it takes programs into mid-October to often even send out their first wave of invites.

 

[longtimelurker2015]

To provide a counterpoint, just hoping this can help, I started interviewing in late September (before the MSPE’s were out), with most of my interviews being in October and a handful in November, with none after that. So clearly every applicant is different.

 

[gamerEMdoc]

Were your Sept/Oct interviews at places you rotated? Personally, we try and get as many of our past and current rotators who applied in in the earliest weeks to give us more time to look at all the other applicants. Considering how many programs wait until mid-October to send out invites to applicants, we can't be the only one that uses this strategy. That way we don't lose a month of interviewing (October) but still have time to look at the apps for everyone else.

 

[oobie]

@gamerEMdoc is it frowned upon to send a second letter of interest to a program? Or should I just hope that I will get a trickle-down interview from my top places? (I sent out my LOIs on like october 31st/november 1st)

 

[gamerEMdoc]

@gamerEMdoc is it frowned upon to send a second letter of interest to a program? Or should I just hope that I will get a trickle-down interview from my top places? (I sent out my LOIs on like october 31st/november 1st)

In general I think many people find it annoying to keep getting emails over and over. I generally believe you should only contact programs once. But I also believe that later LOIs are actually the effective ones, and students just can't help themselves to contact programs way too early, when majority of LOIs don't work. So at this point with only a few more weeks of interviews, I'd say that the risk is minimal. Chances are, you aren't going to be interviewing somewhere you haven't heard from yet anyways unless you know for a fact you are on their waitlist. So you have little to lose if they find it annoying you emailed a 2nd time, right. So I'd say if you have nothing to lose, you might as well try.

 

[longtimelurker2015]

Were your Sept/Oct interviews at places you rotated? Personally, we try and get as many of our past and current rotators who applied in in the earliest weeks to give us more time to look at all the other applicants. Considering how many programs wait until mid-October to send out invites to applicants, we can't be the only one that uses this strategy. That way we don't lose a month of interviewing (October) but still have time to look at the apps for everyone else.

Your comment makes sense, but actually no! I interviewed at my aways when I rotated there in July/August. I thought it was interesting I interviewed at 2-3 programs in late September before the MSPE was out but I guess SLOE’s >>>>>>> Dean’s letter, and I have since found out I got top 1/3, top 1/3, top 10% so I guess it makes sense in retrospect I got all these early interviews from well established programs, for which I am grateful since back then and even now I have just felt like “please I just want to match to a place, any place, as long as I’ll be happy, with good people and get great clinical training”

 

[gamerEMdoc]

Your comment makes sense, but actually no! I interviewed at my aways when I rotated there in July/August. I thought it was interesting I interviewed at 2-3 programs in late September before the MSPE was out but I guess SLOE’s >>>>>>> Dean’s letter, and I have since found out I got top 1/3, top 1/3, top 10% so I guess it makes sense in retrospect I got all these early interviews from well established programs, for which I am grateful since back then and even now I have just felt like “please I just want to match to a place, any place, as long as I’ll be happy, with good people and get great clinical training”

Wow, I'm surprised many programs are already interviewing in September. All the more power to them. I don't know why you'd want to interview as a program before the MPSE even comes out and before most people have 1 or 2 SLOEs. So as a program, you'd have to go back a month later and re-look at those people that interviewed a month ago to re-look at their apps. That just seems inefficient to me. But everyone's different I guess.

 

[boolin_1]

Your comment makes sense, but actually no! I interviewed at my aways when I rotated there in July/August. I thought it was interesting I interviewed at 2-3 programs in late September before the MSPE was out but I guess SLOE’s >>>>>>> Dean’s letter, and I have since found out I got top 1/3, top 1/3, top 10% so I guess it makes sense in retrospect I got all these early interviews from well established programs, for which I am grateful since back then and even now I have just felt like “please I just want to match to a place, any place, as long as I’ll be happy, with good people and get great clinical training”

you were able to have 2-3 SLOE's in before august? that's wild

 

[manyleavesonetree]

you were able to have 2-3 SLOE's in before august? that's wild

looks like OP rotated in july/august and had both sloes in by sept 15, which isnt unusual and had 2-3 interviews in sept with those sloes bc they were so great.

nice job OP!

 

[takeurmeds02]

Is anyone else starting to burn out from these interviews? haha. Just had one within the last couple weeks where leadership spent almost 2 hours going through the welcome talk and residents another hour. It was hard to ask the routine questions because everything was already answered haha. Then interviews didn't end until 5pm latest. Extremely grateful for the opportunity but let's get em in and get em out

I don't even know how leadership has the energy to do these multiple times a week x ~3 months

 

[Rekt]

Is anyone else starting to burn out from these interviews? haha. Just had one within the last couple weeks where leadership spent almost 2 hours going through the welcome talk and residents another hour. It was hard to ask the routine questions because everything was already answered haha. Then interviews didn't end until 5pm latest. Extremely grateful for the opportunity but let's get em in and get em out

I don't even know how leadership has the energy to do these multiple times a week x ~3 months

I actually factored this into my rank list. I think it's really disrespectful of a program to keep you from 7a-5p or some garbage or if they make you sit through didactics, etc. It wasn't many, but it leaves a negative impression.

 

[Stephanopolous]

I am beyond grateful and wouldn't have it any other way BUT yes, I am exhausted and being sick for the past 3 weeks with a URI didn't help.

 

[manyleavesonetree]

I actually factored this into my rank list. I think it's really disrespectful of a program to keep you from 7a-5p or some garbage or if they make you sit through didactics, etc. It wasn't many, but it leaves a negative impression.

They can keep me as long as they like if they just give me an interview

I can understand why this may be annoying if you’ve had 10+ interviews at this point, but try to see it from their point of view, they want to make sure you know as much as possible about them to make an informed decision and trying to get to know a complete stranger as best they can in that limited amount of time. Idk, I dont blame them tbh

 

[gamerEMdoc]

Is anyone else starting to burn out from these interviews? haha. Just had one within the last couple weeks where leadership spent almost 2 hours going through the welcome talk and residents another hour. It was hard to ask the routine questions because everything was already answered haha. Then interviews didn't end until 5pm latest. Extremely grateful for the opportunity but let's get em in and get em out

I don't even know how leadership has the energy to do these multiple times a week x ~3 months

OMG, that's insane. I never experienced that on the interview trail myself. I can't even imagine interviewing more than once a week to be honest from a program perspective but its doubly crazy if programs are interviewing multiple times a week for 8-10 hours. I don't understand any of it. 2 hour overview? What could they possibly talk about? What did you do for the other 7 hours? My mind is blown right now.

 

[gamerEMdoc]

They can keep me as long as they like if they just give me an interview

I can understand why this may be annoying if you’ve had 10+ interviews at this point, but try to see it from their point of view, they want to make sure you know as much as possible about them to make an informed decision and trying to get to know a complete stranger as best they can in that limited amount of time. Idk, I dont blame them tbh

I'm coming from a programs perspective, and I think that its crazy. With a dinner the night before with the residents, if people leave the a four hour interview day with any questions unasked, I'd be surprised. If someone needs an extra 5 more hours to make an informed decision, they should have gone into IM.

By the time someone leaves my interview room, I've decided on them. I basically need 20 minutes. I've already dissected their application in beforehand, scored every piece. I know everything there is to know about that person that's on paper. All I need to do is get some of their insight into EM and them as a person. I don't need 9 hours. I need 20 minutes. After that my decision is made and its time to move on. The rest is letting the PD and other faculty have their 20 minutes so we can get a consensus, and telling the candidates about the program. Honestly, the whole process shouldn't take more than 4-5 hours. The only reason it even takes that long is because the number of candidates interviewing. If we only interviewed 4 candidates, I could get interview day down to 2.5 hours easily.

 

[longtimelurker2015]

looks like OP rotated in july/august and had both sloes in by sept 15, which isnt unusual and had 2-3 interviews in sept with those sloes bc they were so great.

nice job OP!

Thanks for the kind words, man!

All of this feels so completely random, tbh. I mean I knew going in I had good board scores and tons of research publications, which may or may not matter for EM, but the whole away rotation/SLOE process was SOOOOOOO stressful and I totally approached it from a perspective of "Man, I just hope that they don't totally hate me." so anything above that totally rocked my world.

My lesson from this entire process for future applicants tbh is and has been: "Be yourself and be real. Don't fake it. Work hard. Be kind. Show you care. Assume the best out of people, both your patients and the residents you work with." And hope for the best. And I sincerely believe in and work by those words, so, we shall see what happens...

 

[Forever_Blessed]

I am beyond grateful and wouldn't have it any other way BUT yes, I am exhausted and being sick for the past 3 weeks with a URI didn't help.

I’m sick with a URI as well. I had a bad coughing spell during one of my interviews this week, but luckily the interviewer had water on his desk. But still, awful. I’m trying to power through these last few while still feeling under the weather

 

[The Knife & Gun Club]

They can keep me as long as they like if they just give me an interview

I can understand why this may be annoying if you’ve had 10+ interviews at this point, but try to see it from their point of view, they want to make sure you know as much as possible about them to make an informed decision and trying to get to know a complete stranger as best they can in that limited amount of time. Idk, I dont blame them tbh

It just shows poor insight or planning imo. I had one where it took them 5 hours to have each person do 3 15min interviews. They had us sit through a presentation, then 5 hours of didactics pulling people out periodically to interview. I do not need to sit through 5 hours of didactics to learn about a program. Attending their conference for an hour to get a feel of it? Sure. But 5 hours is excessive and not helpful.

 

[takeurmeds02]

OMG, that's insane. I never experienced that on the interview trail myself. I can't even imagine interviewing more than once a week to be honest from a program perspective but its doubly crazy if programs are interviewing multiple times a week for 8-10 hours. I don't understand any of it. 2 hour overview? What could they possibly talk about? What did you do for the other 7 hours? My mind is blown right now.

The other time is spent touring/lunch/waiting to interview and sometimes things get backed up.

They can keep me as long as they like if they just give me an interview

I can understand why this may be annoying if you’ve had 10+ interviews at this point, but try to see it from their point of view, they want to make sure you know as much as possible about them to make an informed decision and trying to get to know a complete stranger as best they can in that limited amount of time. Idk, I dont blame them tbh

Yea, sorry. Wasn't trying to be a jerk or anything because I'm extremely grateful to visit with each and every program. It just gets tiring.

 

[longtimelurker2015]

Is anyone else starting to burn out from these interviews? haha. Just had one within the last couple weeks where leadership spent almost 2 hours going through the welcome talk and residents another hour. It was hard to ask the routine questions because everything was already answered haha. Then interviews didn't end until 5pm latest. Extremely grateful for the opportunity but let's get em in and get em out

I don't even know how leadership has the energy to do these multiple times a week x ~3 months

We may have interviewed at the same program then! One place which this sounds like, there were like 8-9 interviews total, which is wayyyyyyy to many...

 

[Stephanopolous]

It just shows poor insight or planning imo. I had one where it took them 5 hours to have each person do 3 15min interviews. They had us sit through a presentation, then 5 hours of didactics pulling people out periodically to interview. I do not need to sit through 5 hours of didactics to learn about a program. Attending their conference for an hour to get a feel of it? Sure. But 5 hours is excessive and not helpful.

We must have both interviewed at this place.

Which makes me wonder, did we interview in the same group and not realize it haha

Edit: ah wait, just realized mine had almost the exact same format except I had 4 x 15 min iv's

 

[gamerEMdoc]

One place which this sounds like, there were like 8-9 interviews total.

Wow, that's a hell of a gauntlet of interviews. I'm sure you weren't asked any redundant questions.

 

[longtimelurker2015]

Wow, that's a hell of a gauntlet of interviews. I'm sure you weren't asked any redundant questions.

Lolz. Every single one of them: "So why EM?" and "Why here?" I stuck to the same answer every time, with a little variability added in to keep it fresh, and I figured maybe they compare their notes to see if the applicant responds consistently to all interviewers?

 

[takeurmeds02]

We may have interviewed at the same program then! One place which this sounds like, there were like 8-9 interviews total, which is wayyyyyyy to many...

Omg, 8-9 different interviewers in one day??

 

[notANOTHERPREMED!]

.

 

[longtimelurker2015]

Omg, 8-9 different interviewers in one day??

Yup! Entire day lasted like 8 am - 3 pm. Exhausting.

 

[gamerEMdoc]

Every single one of them: "So why EM?" and "Why here?"

Always disliked the "why here" question. Just seems like stroking your ego as a program. The real answer is, "because I got an interview" and yet everyone has to come up with something complementary about your program. It doesn't really provide any real insight imo. I think a better way to ask that question is to ask what is important to the candidate in terms of choosing a program.

 

[PersistentDoc21]

So I have a good number of interviews but there are still places I really want to interview that I have no heard back from. I recently added a new SLOE to my application, like yesterday and I am wondering if there is any use emailing programs to let them know the sloe is there or if programs get a notification about the SLOE. I also dont know If I should request an application update from the programs I have not heard from yet.

 

[gamerEMdoc]

So I have a good number of interviews but there are still places I really want to interview that I have no heard back from. I recently added a new SLOE to my application, like yesterday and I am wondering if there is any use emailing programs to let them know the sloe is there or if programs get a notification about the SLOE. I also dont know If I should request an application update from the programs I have not heard from yet.

With only a few weeks of interviews left, chances are nothing you do is going to hurt you at this point.

That being said, earlier in the year, the update emails are typically unnecessary. Because programs typically make their decision to interview based on 1-2 SLOEs from summer rotations.

 

[The Knife & Gun Club]

Happy Friday everyone. I’m on hour 2 at an airport chili’s, wearing my full suit, sipping a 22 oz beer, and just finished my last interview. Bring on the celebratory sizzling fajitas.

 

[Rekt]

I remember I got “why here” on 100% of interviews

Not as bad as the “so tell me about yourself” question. I just spent hundreds of dollars and days of my life to come to your program and you can’t spend 5 minutes to even skim my app. Ya. We’re done here

If you're rehashing your application with the tell me about yourself question, then you're answering it incorrectly.

 

[The Knife & Gun Club]

If you're rehashing your application with the tell me about yourself question, then you're answering it incorrectly.

Come on man, this seems a bit overzealous don’t you think?

Probably 95% of the unique/interesting stuff I’ve done in my life is somewhere in my app. I would imagine most applicants are the same.

If you ask me to “tell about myself” I’m going to tell my true story - which is likely largely available in greater detail on paper. Maybe I’ll ad some themes together that weren’t obvious in the text.

But I don’t think repeating a concise history of ones app when asked that question is anything other than a normal response to the question

 

[mancub]

If you're rehashing your application with the tell me about yourself question, then you're answering it incorrectly.

I get your sentiment but my money makers are very clear in my application. I always I answer this question with a brief synopsis of my ERAS high points and 70% of the time they are genuinely surprised by some of it...making it clear they didn’t read my app.

The other 30% of the time they say “yeah I read that” and we end up talking more in depth about those key things anyway which is also a win for me.

So yeah I will rehash all dayyyy

 

[gamerEMdoc]

Idk, I read these apps in detail, and I usually ask candidates to tell me about how they got to this point in their lives. Some just rehash the PS, and thats ok, but some tell me about their family, their upbringing, Things that define them, etc. I get told all kinds of stuff not in the app. Even when people just rehash their app, its helpful bc you get insight into what pieces of their app, experiences, etc they considered the most important to them. If the only info I ever got was info from the app Ive already read, then I wouldn't ask the question. I have a deliberate reason for most of what I ask.

 

[mancub]

Idk, I read these apps in detail, and I usually ask candidates to tell me about how they got to this point in their lives. Some just rehash the PS, and thats ok, but some tell me about their family, their upbringing, Things that define them, etc. I get told all kinds of stuff not in the app. Even when people just rehash their app, its helpful bc you get insight into what pieces of their app, experiences, etc they considered the most important to them. If the only info I ever got was info from the app Ive already read, then I wouldn't ask the question. I have a deliberate reason for most of what I ask.

I wish all interviewers put the same amount of effort in as you. Also your question shows way more insight than “tell me about yourself”.

We’re not saying to just robotically regurge ERAS talking points. For me I was pretty candid and open in my app and if they haven’t read it there’s no better place to start.

Also side note: my worst interview was with a PD who asked “what questions do you have” and then “what other questions do you have” for the entire 15 min!

 

[Rekt]

Idk, I read these apps in detail, and I usually ask candidates to tell me about how they got to this point in their lives. Some just rehash the PS, and thats ok, but some tell me about their family, their upbringing, Things that define them, etc. I get told all kinds of stuff not in the app. Even when people just rehash their app, its helpful bc you get insight into what pieces of their app, experiences, etc they considered the most important to them. If the only info I ever got was info from the app Ive already read, then I wouldn't ask the question. I have a deliberate reason for most of what I ask.

Exactly. I read every app in detail and take brief notes about interesting topics but sometimes will ask this question. Most rehash the app, but for those who don't it creates easy organic talking points.

 

[xcrunner01]

Is mid Jan too late to take Step 2 CK? I did well on Step 1 and came back to clinical rotations mid-cycle last year due to timing of PhD defense. Scheduled CK for Jan so I'd have as many rotations under my belt as possible. Some programs I interviewed at require Step 2 for ranking. I'll get my score back mid Feb, before the rank list deadline of Feb 26. Is this possibly too late though, if some programs make their rank list, say, in Jan and don't revisit it in Feb? Wondering if I should move CK up to an earlier date...

 

[Rekt]

Is mid Jan too late to take Step 2 CK? I did well on Step 1 and came back to clinical rotations mid-cycle last year due to timing of PhD defense. Scheduled CK for Jan so I'd have as many rotations under my belt as possible. Some programs I interviewed at require Step 2 for ranking. I'll get my score back mid Feb, before the rank list deadline of Feb 26. Is this possibly too late though, if some programs make their rank list, say, in Jan and don't revisit it in Feb? Wondering if I should move CK up to an earlier date...

Most places will have their rank lists done long before the actual date. I'm guessing it's too late to get it any earlier, but you'd need to immediately email every program you're ranking that it came back to make sure they know you got a passing score.

 

[The Knife & Gun Club]

Most places will have their rank lists done long before the actual date. I'm guessing it's too late to get it any earlier, but you'd need to immediately email every program you're ranking that it came back to make sure they know you got a passing score.

Is it customary to let places you interviewed at know you passed?

I just got CS back and was wondering if I’m gonna need to email everyone.

 

[gamerEMdoc]

I wish all interviewers put the same amount of effort in as you. Also your question shows way more insight than “tell me about yourself”.

We’re not saying to just robotically regurge ERAS talking points. For me I was pretty candid and open in my app and if they haven’t read it there’s no better place to start.

Also side note: my worst interview was with a PD who asked “what questions do you have” and then “what other questions do you have” for the entire 15 min!

Oh man, that is an awful interview technique. Not to give away all of what I ask, but there's a good way to ask about questions. I always say, "I know you have already likely asked all your questions by now, so its ok if you don't, but do you have any questions for me". I like to ask it this way so people can ask questions they want to ask, but don't feel obligated to ask the same old forced questions. I hate wasting interview time, and forcing someone to ask questions they've already asked or don't care about the actual answer is a waste of time.

 

[gamerEMdoc]

Is it customary to let places you interviewed at know you passed?

I just got CS back and was wondering if I’m gonna need to email everyone.

I don't think its necessary. I would hope that if a program wanted you to update them about something missing in your app (like a 2nd sloe, board score, etc) they would have asked you to update them in the interview.

 

[mancub]

Exactly. I read every app in detail and take brief notes about interesting topics but sometimes will ask this question. Most rehash the app, but for those who don't it creates easy organic talking points.

You are one of the good ones! As someone currently going through this I’ve only had one interview day where everyone who interviewed me read my app.

 

[Stephanopolous]

https://escholarship.org/content/qt4nq946xb/qt4nq946xb.pdf?t=q2tbto&v=lg

Interesting study on the effect of post-iv communication on applicants and programs.

 

[gamerEMdoc]

https://escholarship.org/content/qt4nq946xb/qt4nq946xb.pdf?t=q2tbto&v=lg

Interesting study on the effect of post-iv communication on applicants and programs.

Post-IV communication likely does work based on this data (and personal experience), its just a minor effect that probably doesn't have a huge effect on match chances regardless when it comes to programs changing match position. I suspect it has a more dramatic effect on working on students. While the study showed it works on students/programs at a rate of 20% or so, the effect is magnified on students. A student moving a program up 2 spots on their list of 10 programs (20% rise) is a far more dramatic move than a program moving a student up 5 spots in a list of 100 (5% rise).

Rank all programs how you want them. You should rank your list strictly based on where you want to be as a student. Programs should rank their list solely based on the people they want to train.