[2019-2020] Emergency Medicine Application Thread

[southerndoc]

I think the benefit of a higher volume place is that rare things get seen more frequently. One resident may be taking care of them, but you can have all the residents on-duty see what is going on. Seeing is remembering. Maybe a HIPAA violation, but it's all in the sake of education.

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[Torsion]

What does it mean to “Kill the interview”? Feels like I hear people say that all the time on SDN, but I’ve yet to have an interview where I feel like I “killed it”

I almost always chat for 15 minutes about my hobbies, career goals, make a joke or two, at best get the interviewer to smile and laugh a little.

I'd like pose this question from Knife and Gun Club again because I've had similar experience with my interviews. Generally have come in to the room, maybe answered a standardized question without much difficulty, and then talked about hobbies, then answer"why program X?", "where do you see yourself in 10 years", etc. then ask the interviewer a few questions about the program before ending the interview with a handshake. I generally present myself as genuine, engaged and upbeat and I can't really think of much else I could do to stand out. I assume most applicants are doing the same as myself and I don't quite understand how the interview can have such large implications for rank list unless an applicant comes across particularly poorly.

 

[gamerEMdoc]

You'd be surprised at the number of people that don't have a ton of insight into EM. I've literally even had people not been able to answer "why did you persue EM as a career choice". Like the one question you KNOW you are going to be asked. There's people that can't hold a conversation where they answer every question with one sentence or less and have no questions and the interview is like 5 minutes. People that are overly anxious. People that are standoffish. So I don't think its a safe assumption that everyone is able to easily interview.

 

[Rekt]

I'd like pose this question from Knife and Gun Club again because I've had similar experience with my interviews. Generally have come in to the room, maybe answered a standardized question without much difficulty, and then talked about hobbies, then answer"why program X?", "where do you see yourself in 10 years", etc. then ask the interviewer a few questions about the program before ending the interview with a handshake. I generally present myself as genuine, engaged and upbeat and I can't really think of much else I could do to stand out. I assume most applicants are doing the same as myself and I don't quite understand how the interview can have such large implications for rank list unless an applicant comes across particularly poorly.

That sounds like what you're supposed to be doing. The people who think they "kill interviews" likely aren't. You don't want to stand out in a quirky or bad way. Yes, some people are just much better at conversation than others, but what you and Knife and Gun club described are typically how interviews should go. I personally ask more fun questions and not standardized questions, so I feel when I do interviews, most people do pretty well because it's just casual conversation, us getting to know you guys.

You'd be surprised at the number of people that don't have a ton of insight into EM. I've literally even had people not been able to answer "why did you persue EM as a career choice". Like the one question you KNOW you are going to be asked. There's people that can't hold a conversation where they answer every question with one sentence or less and have no questions and the interview is like 5 minutes. People that are overly anxious. People that are standoffish. So I don't think its a safe assumption that everyone is able to easily interview.

To contrast what I said above, Gamer is 100% correct. Luckily it hasn't been many, but there's definitely some people who are absolutely clueless with basic questions. I'm really blown away at what a couple people have said or have been unable to say. I've also had a couple people be outright hostile or say something completely off the wall or inappropriate during peri-interview discussion that I've suggested we DNR completely. These people are really what interviews are for.

 

[medhopeful82]

This was asked on the spreadsheet and I thought it'd be good to get you guys' opinion -- if you know that a program put that they plan to rank you in the top 1/3 on your SLOE can you expect to match there? I've heard most programs go about 1/2 way down the list so a top 1/3 rank seems like a pretty sure shot? Am I thinking of this incorrectly?

 

[RPedigo]

This was asked on the spreadsheet and I thought it'd be good to get you guys' opinion -- if you know that a program put that they plan to rank you in the top 1/3 on your SLOE can you expect to match there? I've heard most programs go about 1/2 way down the list so a top 1/3 rank seems like a pretty sure shot? Am I thinking of this incorrectly?

The main issue with this is it is (usually) the clerkship director's good faith estimation of where an applicant will be on the rank list. That may or may not be where the applicant actually ends up on a rank list for a variety of factors, which could not be known at the time of the SLOE (e.g., strength of the other applicants who applied that cycle, etc.). Usually it is a positive indicator of being competitively placed on a rank list, but I can think of multiple times where I thought an applicant would be top 1/3 on a rank list but they ended up middle 1/3 on rank list meeting day for other reasons. So no it is not a "guarantee" but is certainly a positive thing.

 

[gamerEMdoc]

This was asked on the spreadsheet and I thought it'd be good to get you guys' opinion -- if you know that a program put that they plan to rank you in the top 1/3 on your SLOE can you expect to match there? I've heard most programs go about 1/2 way down the list so a top 1/3 rank seems like a pretty sure shot? Am I thinking of this incorrectly?

The national average is 6.5/spot filled. Which means the national average is usually to go to the bottom of the middle 1/3 to fill the last spot, assuming most programs are interviewing about 10/spot. So yes, if you are actually a top 1/3, you’ll almost assuredly match there unless there is something that derails you later (see below).

The main issue with this is it is (usually) the clerkship director's good faith estimation of where an applicant will be on the rank list. That may or may not be where the applicant actually ends up on a rank list for a variety of factors, which could not be known at the time of the SLOE (e.g., strength of the other applicants who applied that cycle, etc.). Usually it is a positive indicator of being competitively placed on a rank list, but I can think of multiple times where I thought an applicant would be top 1/3 on a rank list but they ended up middle 1/3 on rank list meeting day for other reasons. So no it is not a "guarantee" but is certainly a positive thing.

This. With the exception that the SLOE rank is usually more than just one persons estimation since most are decided by a group. But there’s a lot of factors at play in deciding the rank that arent known at the time the sloe was written. How the person did on other rotations. Red flags in their apps you have no idea exist. Etc. So someone could excel on their month with you, but then you get their MPSE later and it derails their chances. So no a good sloe from a place is not a 100% guarantee, but it is usually a pretty good estimate of your chances most of the time.

 

[Phoebe Buffet]

The national average is 6.5/spot filled. Which means the national average is usually to go to the bottom of the middle 1/3 to fill the last spot, assuming most programs are interviewing about 10/spot. So yes, if you are actually a top 1/3, you’ll almost assuredly match there unless there is something that derails you later (see below).



This. With the exception that the SLOE rank is usually more than just one persons estimation since most are decided by a group. But there’s a lot of factors at play in deciding the rank that arent known at the time the sloe was written. How the person did on other rotations. Red flags in their apps you have no idea exist. Etc. So someone could excel on their month with you, but then you get their MPSE later and it derails their chances. So no a good sloe from a place is not a 100% guarantee, but it is usually a pretty good estimate of your chances most of the time.

do SLOE writers look at an applicants ERAS app if they are writing after Oct 1st or is it generally just based on away performance?

 

[gamerEMdoc]

do SLOE writers look at an applicants ERAS app if they are writing after Oct 1st or is it generally just based on away performance?

I can only speak for myself on this one. I do look at the ERAS apps when writing late season SLOEs, but for the most part unless there is something glaring in the app, it rarely changes something with the end SLOE ranks.

 

[burner29380]

If someone had a top 1/3 or top 10% SLOE from one institution but has one bad SLOE from another, how would that affect their rank at the program who gave them to good letter? My number 1 gave me top 1/3 or top 10%, and I am eagerly hoping they know what they saw that month is truly me and not necessarily my bad SLOE.

 

[Listen2Savage]

hotwire/priceline express deals have been hooking me up this season

 

[gamerEMdoc]

If someone had a top 1/3 or top 10% SLOE from one institution but has one bad SLOE from another, how would that affect their rank at the program who gave them to good letter? My number 1 gave me top 1/3 or top 10%, and I am eagerly hoping they know what they saw that month is truly me and not necessarily my bad SLOE.

Usually I trust the collective gut of all of the people at my program. But if the bad sloe has something really damning in it (lets say “was argumentative and difficult with feedback” or some other unprofessional behavior, then I’d rethink things on my end. If its just “ddx needs improvement and I thought the knowledge base and ddx were fine, Im not going to worry about that bad SLOE.

 

[The Knife & Gun Club]

Just a PSA for the couples match peeps who apply in the future:

Don’t skimp on the apps. We applied to almost 100 places each when advisors suggested 30-40. Those 100 apps netted us a grand total of 15 viable pairs (And plenty of heart-breaking non viable pairs).

You can back load your interviews to make sure you don’t attend interviews at places that don’t give you both an interview, and decline later when it becomes clear if the other person isnt gonna get an interview. But don’t skimp up front, because you really never know which random, small other coast program is going to give you Both a shot.

 

[gamerEMdoc]

Just a PSA for the couples match peeps who apply in the future:

Don’t skimp on the apps. We applied to almost 100 places each when advisors suggested 30-40. Those 100 apps netted us a grand total of 15 viable pairs (And plenty of heart-breaking non viable pairs).

You can back load your interviews to make sure you don’t attend interviews at places that don’t give you both an interview, and decline later when it becomes clear if the other person isnt gonna get an interview. But don’t skimp up front, because you really never know which random, small other coast program is going to give you Both a shot.

Oh yeah, there is no doubt, the couples match is treacherous. Much easier when people are going into the same field.

 

[The Knife & Gun Club]

Oh yeah, there is no doubt, the couples match is treacherous. Much easier when people are going into the same field.

The number of times I’ve been on an interview and the person sees my home state heavy app, looks at me cross eyed and asks “why, honestly, do you want to come to this program in a town thousands of miles from your home where you have like 0 ties?”...I mention the couples match and they’re like OOOOOH

 

[Forever_Blessed]

Has anyone brought their spouse to the pre-interview dinner with them? Or have seen any other applicant bring their spouse? I know the invites always say spouses are welcome, but I wanted to get some feedback on what’s truly recommended as far as bringing your significant other.
It’s a local interview, so my spouse is already around.

 

[gamerEMdoc]

My spouse went to a few local ones. We definitely had spouses show up to some of the dinners when I went to them as a residency.

 

[Stephanopolous]

Has anyone brought their spouse to the pre-interview dinner with them? Or have seen any other applicant bring their spouse? I know the invites always say spouses are welcome, but I wanted to get some feedback on what’s truly recommended as far as bringing your significant other.
It’s a local interview, so my spouse is already around.

I’ve seen applicants bring spouses to almost every dinner I’ve gone to and it wasn’t an issue at all.


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[InvaderZim427]

Just a PSA for the couples match peeps who apply in the future:

Don’t skimp on the apps. We applied to almost 100 places each when advisors suggested 30-40. Those 100 apps netted us a grand total of 15 viable pairs (And plenty of heart-breaking non viable pairs).

You can back load your interviews to make sure you don’t attend interviews at places that don’t give you both an interview, and decline later when it becomes clear if the other person isnt gonna get an interview. But don’t skimp up front, because you really never know which random, small other coast program is going to give you Both a shot.

congrats on all the matches. My bf and I have a grand total of 2 perfect matches, with one other that's within an hour of each other...and we applied to 90 programs

 

[manyleavesonetree]

@gamerEMdoc What are your thoughts on calling programs for interview spots? Especially if we're stuck with only 7 interviews this late in the cycle

 

[Rekt]

@gamerEMdoc What are your thoughts on calling programs for interview spots? Especially if we're stuck with only 7 interviews this late in the cycle

Don't do that.

 

[gamerEMdoc]

@gamerEMdoc What are your thoughts on calling programs for interview spots? Especially if we're stuck with only 7 interviews this late in the cycle

I don't think cold calling places is any more successful than sending an email. Personally, I'm not a fan of the idea of calling places, but then again, I hate talking on the phone. I just think you can lay out your case of why you are interested easier in an email.

 

[stemi8]

Does receiving a late interview invite or interview off of waitlist correlate with being ranked lower on that programs rank list?

 

[southerndoc]

Does receiving a late interview invite or interview off of waitlist correlate with being ranked lower on that programs rank list?

No. Most of the time I don't even know if someone was waitlisted unless they tell me. Two core faculty, a resident, and PD interview everyone. We then meet and discuss. We meet in February and rank everyone. If you're waitlisted or interview late and do well on the interview, you'll get ranked higher for sure.

 

[CyrilFiggis]

I don't think cold calling places is any more successful than sending an email. Personally, I'm not a fan of the idea of calling places, but then again, I hate talking on the phone. I just think you can lay out your case of why you are interested easier in an email.

I think there are specific reasons to call a program esp this time of year. Winter weather and interview fatigue lead to more cancellations. It’s not bad to let a program know you’re available last minute (esp if that program is in your area). I did that on Monday and got an invite Tuesday. N=1 but I had a program coordinator tell me they like to know who will accept if need to pull from a waitlist.

 

[boolin_1]

congrats on all the matches. My bf and I have a grand total of 2 perfect matches, with one other that's within an hour of each other...and we applied to 90 programs

bro what. is there a thread for couples matching people? that'll be me next year; ER for myself and IM for the gf

 

[notANOTHERPREMED!]

@gamerEMdoc What are your thoughts on calling programs for interview spots? Especially if we're stuck with only 7 interviews this late in the cycle

I'm also at 7 . Terrified of having to SOAP. I haven't heard anything all November.

 

[manyleavesonetree]

I'm also at 7 . Terrified of having to SOAP. I haven't heard anything all November.

Same radio silence

 

[doctruopa]

I sent out a handful of letter of intents and hasn't heard anything back from any of them. Sitting at 6 interviews.

 

[TTPpentad]

Hopefully with the military match next week and the weather for a lot of the country getting worse as the month goes on, more people will drop invites they don’t actually want.

 

[The Knife & Gun Club]

bro what. is there a thread for couples matching people? that'll be me next year; ER for myself and IM for the gf

Not that I know of, though there should be.

Issues is there’s so few of us, and it’s a pretty heterogeneous group. An EM/Ortho Pair is a totally different ballgame than EM/Peds.

 

[gamerEMdoc]

Interviewed several this week that recently came off the waitlist. Tis the season. Cancellations will come nearly every week until the end. Some will go unfilled just bc programs cant find anyone to fill them last second because of weather and/or general apathy at this point. Interviews absolutely still can be had, and this is the time of year where LOIs can actually be effective as opposed to contacting people in October.

Best of luck securing those last few to those above who are out there with 6-7.

 

[CyrilFiggis]

I'm also at 7 . Terrified of having to SOAP. I haven't heard anything all November.

You can't hold on to that number as the arbiter of your chances of matching. If you look at the Charting the Outcomes data (assuming you're a US allopathic student), the odds are in your favor of matching. Total number of matches isn't what leads you to match, its a combination of data including how much a specific program likes you. Only one program has to really like you, even if you don't rank them highly.

If you use the interactive charting data
for last year alone, US MDs with 5-10 matches, regardless of Step 1 score and not factoring anything else, matched at approx 90%. If fact, those that had a Step 1 score between 240-249 actually matched worse than those with a 210-239. So this just shows how multifactorial it is.

At this point, you should have no shame in reaching out (tactfully) to a program and letting them know you're still interested and/or available. What can they do reject you?

 

[Hellothere32]

Hey everyone, I had a SLOE uploaded about 1.5-2 weeks ago for a rotation I did in October. Should I email the programs I've already interviewed at and/or the programs I'm going to interview at in the upcoming weeks and let them know? Do ALL SLOES (especially the ones after the interview itself) get reviewed prior to the official rank list submission. I feel like it's a strong SLOE from a good program which could be helpful.

TIA for your help.

 

[Rekt]

Interviewed several this week that recently came off the waitlist. Tis the season. Cancellations will come nearly every week until the end. Some will go unfilled just bc programs cant find anyone to fill them last second because of weather and/or general apathy at this point. Interviews absolutely still can be had, and this is the time of year where LOIs can actually be effective as opposed to contacting people in October.

Best of luck securing those last few to those above who are out there with 6-7.

There'd be even more interviews to go around if some applicants weren't disrespectful. I'm surprised at how close an applicant will decide not to interview. We've had a couple here and there cancel and we couldn't fill since it was so close. Really unprofessional to the program and to other applicants.

 

[gamerEMdoc]

There'd be even more interviews to go around if some applicants weren't disrespectful. I'm surprised at how close an applicant will decide not to interview. We've had a couple here and there cancel and we couldn't fill since it was so close. Really unprofessional to the program and to other applicants.

Oh yeah its amazing. 2 days before isn't atypical. The night before happens from time to time. We've had someone cancel literally the morning of the interview just an hour or two before. The fact is, its very difficult to fill an interview spot that is cancelled if its more than a week before. Sometimes we can fill it on short notice, but for students to be able to rearrange their schedules at the drop of a hat just days away, its a lot to ask. Typically these late cancellations just go unfilled, which is a shame.

I never have anything against cancelling interviews. I wish more people cancelled ones they didn't have any intent of actually wanting to go to. I just wish students realized that when they wait until right before the interview, they are directly hurting other students unnecessarily.

 

[gamerEMdoc]

Hey everyone, I had a SLOE uploaded about 1.5-2 weeks ago for a rotation I did in October. Should I email the programs I've already interviewed at and/or the programs I'm going to interview at in the upcoming weeks and let them know? Do ALL SLOES (especially the ones after the interview itself) get reviewed prior to the official rank list submission. I feel like it's a strong SLOE from a good program which could be helpful.

TIA for your help.

Typically, most places will make their decisions on the SLOEs at the time of your interview, but sometimes people don't have 2 SLOEs yet, so I typically will ask those without 2 to email me when they upload their second SLOE. If you already had 2 at the time of your interview, then they have likely made their decision on you for the most part, and they may or may not consider the late SLOEs when it comes to the final rank meeting. I don't think it would hurt you to email the Program Coordinator to let them know you are uploading another SLOE for consideration after the fact though, whether it helps will be up to the individual programs and how they approach their rank list process.

 

[RottieLife]

gamerEMdoc: You are the man. We all appreciate the numerous hours you spend answering our questions and providing tons of good insight into this whole match/ERAS/away/SLOE/interview process. It truly means a lot to us. Thanks!!

 

[TheSingularity]

Maybe if you unblind sloes that will happen.

Oh yeah its amazing. 2 days before isn't atypical. The night before happens from time to time. We've had someone cancel literally the morning of the interview just an hour or two before. The fact is, its very difficult to fill an interview spot that is cancelled if its more than a week before. Sometimes we can fill it on short notice, but for students to be able to rearrange their schedules at the drop of a hat just days away, its a lot to ask. Typically these late cancellations just go unfilled, which is a shame.

I never have anything against cancelling interviews. I wish more people cancelled ones they didn't have any intent of actually wanting to go to. I just wish students realized that when they wait until right before the interview, they are directly hurting other students unnecessarily.

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[gamerEMdoc]

Maybe if you unblind sloes that will happen.

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I don't see any correlation. Why would blinding of SLOEs have anything to do with late cancellations. I don't have anything against cancellations. Its cancellations a few days beforehand I take issue with. It's not hurting programs, it hurts other students. SLOEs being blinded has nothing to do with it.

 

[gamerEMdoc]

Late in the game this year, but interesting that CORD has finally has put out a consensus statement about when/how to contact programs with LOIs in terms of digging up more interviews. A couple highlights they suggest (not far off of what I have been saying for awhile about LOIs based on personal experience):

- Don't spam every program
- Point out a personal connection in the email that may be missed in the app itself
- You do not need to contact programs every-time there is an update to your application
- Make sure to email or CC the Program coordinator, not just email the PD
- Wait until at least November

Attached is the document.

 

[gamerEMdoc]

gamerEMdoc: You are the man. We all appreciate the numerous hours you spend answering our questions and providing tons of good insight into this whole match/ERAS/away/SLOE/interview process. It truly means a lot to us. Thanks!!

Thanks for this! It means a lot to know that my efforts to bring some clarity to this process are appreciated.

 

[TheSingularity]

Clarification: unblinding sloes would likely lead to less interview hoarding

I don't see any correlation. Why would blinding of SLOEs have anything to do with late cancellations. I don't have anything against cancellations. Its cancellations a few days beforehand I take issue with. It's not hurting programs, it hurts other students. SLOEs being blinded has nothing to do with it.

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[mancub]

Clarification: unblinding sloes would likely lead to less interview hoarding

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I’m not so sure. If you have 17 interviews it’s pretty clear what is in your SLOEs blinded or not.

Hoarding interviews has more to do with student neuroticism or just a lack of consideration for other applicants.

 

[gamerEMdoc]

I’m not so sure. If you have 17 interviews it’s pretty clear what is in your SLOEs blinded or not.

Hoarding interviews has more to do with student neuroticism or just a lack of consideration for other applicants.

Correct. Blinded SLOEs lead to overapplying. Interview hoarding has nothing to do with it. When you get 20+ interviews, you know your app is great.

And none of that has to do with cancelling the day before the interview.

 

[The Knife & Gun Club]

Managed to pick up an interview at one of my dream programs with an email this week. Emailed a love letter Monday, got a reply Tuesday saying if I could be there on Friday the spot was mine.

Dropped $600 on a last minute flight, sprinted through the airport for a connection, and stayed in the sketchiest AirBNB of the season. 100% worth it.

 

[Stephanopolous]

Managed to pick up an interview at one of my dream programs with an email this week. Emailed a love letter Monday, got a reply Tuesday saying if I could be there on Friday the spot was mine.

Dropped $600 on a last minute flight, sprinted through the airport for a connection, and stayed in the sketchiest AirBNB of the season. 100% worth it.

Congrats!!!

 

[gamerEMdoc]

Managed to pick up an interview at one of my dream programs with an email this week. Emailed a love letter Monday, got a reply Tuesday saying if I could be there on Friday the spot was mine.

Dropped $600 on a last minute flight, sprinted through the airport for a connection, and stayed in the sketchiest AirBNB of the season. 100% worth it.

This is why LOIs work at a much higher percentage late in the year vs early in the year. Everyone starts freaking out in October, and I understand why, but its one month into a 4-5 month process at that point. Sending LOIs when programs haven't even finished looking at their apps just annoys most programs. But when it gets to cancellation season, and programs have to go 10-20 people down their waitlist just to fill one interview, sending an LOI email saying you'll take an interview at the drop of a hat works. Program coordinators see that and they know they have someone who will take the interview and reliably show up.

 

[SauseBause]

This is why LOIs work at a much higher percentage late in the year vs early in the year. Everyone starts freaking out in October, and I understand why, but its one month into a 4-5 month process at that point. Sending LOIs when programs haven't even finished looking at their apps just annoys most programs. But when it gets to cancellation season, and programs have to go 10-20 people down their waitlist just to fill one interview, sending an LOI email saying you'll take an interview at the drop of a hat works. Program coordinators see that and they know they have someone who will take the interview and reliably show up.

Hey GamerEMDoc, was wondering if you knew when the majority of interview invitation ends (is it late January when typically the last batch is sent out? or are there instances where invites could still be sent out early February?) I am currently planning for time out of the country in Feb and just don't want to miss any invites in case they are still sent that late.

Thanks!

 

[Shmoclo]

Whats the consensus on interview thank you notes again? I know it’s been answered a million times but I’m lazy right now