2 pharmacy schools shut down, which ones next

[krikik909]

Before cheating scandal: 75% pass rate
After cheating scandal: 62% pass rate

Does this mean a good number of working pharmacists can’t even pass a minimal competency exam without cheating?

Scary thoughts right?

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[steveysmith54]

anyone know whether there is a certain amount of attempts that a student has to pass the exam?
I wonder if one of these deans will try to have the exam revamped or eliminated like they did to the 900 hours of outside intern hours, which was a barrier to getting licensed for a lot of people.

 

[confettiflyer]

anyone know whether there is a certain amount of attempts that a student has to pass the exam?
I wonder if one of these deans will try to have the exam revamped or eliminated like they did to the 900 hours of outside intern hours, which was a barrier to getting licensed for a lot of people.

Is it still 3 before you have to enroll in some courses? Where do you even enroll? Clearly I’ve never had to look, lol.

And didn’t UCSF push for the 900 outside hours for elimination? Memory hazy.

 

[deleted562805]

Before cheating scandal: 75% pass rate
After cheating scandal: 62% pass rate

Does this mean a good number of working pharmacists can’t even pass a minimal competency exam without cheating?

Scary thoughts right?

NABP needs to do more to help students who fail. They don’t even try to help students who fail the MPJE. And the ridiculous thing is you can only take the Pre MPJE once for each state??? Also no score report to see how well you did or what one needs to improve on.

As tough as the USMLE and Boards are, NABM at least provides score reports. And there are review courses to help students who fail.The Nursing Board still provides a score report to help students who fail to understand where they went wrong and provides CE to help pass the NCLEX. NCLEX is harder than the NAPLEX. See medicine and nursing cares about their students. Pharmacy can care less.

Failure of NABP and decentralizing the curriculum the pharmacy school system has led to this. Some schools provide no review for MPJE, and some schools prep students for MPJE. And NABP is stuck in the old ways of standardized testing and do not even try to help students at all. No wonder students have to resort to cheating.
NABP needs to do more help students pass the MPJE or even NAPLEX like provide a score report for one thing and let students take Pre MPJE or Pre NAPLEX multiple times for the same state.

 

[Sine Cura]

Schools needed to have higher admissions standards.

A score report might be helpful though. No real excuse not to have one since admissions exams (MCAT, PCAT) have those.

 

[krikik909]

NABP needs to do more to help students who fail. They don’t even try to help students who fail the MPJE. And the ridiculous thing is you can only take the Pre MPJE once for each state??? Also no score report to see how well you did or what one needs to improve on.

As tough as the USMLE and Boards are, NABM at least provides score reports. And there are review courses to help students who fail.The Nursing Board still provides a score report to help students who fail to understand where they went wrong and provides CE to help pass the NCLEX. NCLEX is harder than the NAPLEX. See medicine and nursing cares about their students. Pharmacy can care less.

Failure of NABP and decentralizing the curriculum the pharmacy school system has led to this. Some schools provide no review for MPJE, and some schools prep students for MPJE. And NABP is stuck in the old ways of standardized testing and do not even try to help students at all. No wonder students have to resort to cheating.
NABP needs to do more help students pass the MPJE or even NAPLEX like provide a score report for one thing and let students take Pre MPJE or Pre NAPLEX multiple times for the same state.

I agree the NABP should provide a breakdown of their score but how does that justify cheating? For most, this is their first time taking the exam so providing a score report doesn’t apply to them.

Pharmacy board is probably one of the easier ones. Spend an hour or two on a computer and you are done. For other professional board, it is a multi year, multi day exam that require you to access and to work with real patients.

 

[deleted562805]

I agree the NABP should provide a breakdown of their score but how does that justify cheating? For most, this is their first time taking the exam so providing a score report doesn’t apply to them.

Pharmacy board is probably one of the easier ones. Spend an hour or two on a computer and you are done. For other professional board, it is a multi year, multi day exam that require you to access and to work with real patients.

Nursing is similar. NCLEX is just once and for laws, you just read the laws and sign. No law exam for nursing. But the NCLEX is actually harder than the NAPLEX and they provide score reports.

 

[Gombrich12]

Oh they won’t close, so long as moral hazard exists with student loans and repayment plans. And I don’t blame the incoming students, either. Borrow $500k for a 25% chance at making $100k a year, and if you fail, you’re legally allowed to pay zero? I’d take those chances on those terms.

I was thinking employers would be the ones holding the line, and we already are, for the most part.

Nursing is a better option if you're only worried about how much money you'll make. There are nursing programs where you get a BSN in only 1 year if you have a BA and the right prereqs.

Anyways more good news, searches for pharmacy school continue to trend down bigly.

 

[297point1]

Is it still 3 before you have to enroll in some courses? Where do you even enroll? Clearly I’ve never had to look, lol.

I know someone who did have to look.
Creighton is your answer.
And it worked.

 

[confettiflyer]

I know someone who did have to look.
Creighton is your answer.
And it worked.

Good to hear, I learn something every day. It was always one of those far off scenarios given that, when tests were 2x/yr, a 3 exam failure + class would approach a 2+ year delay.

 

[American Princess]

NABP needs to do more to help students who fail. They don’t even try to help students who fail the MPJE. And the ridiculous thing is you can only take the Pre MPJE once for each state??? Also no score report to see how well you did or what one needs to improve on.

As tough as the USMLE and Boards are, NABM at least provides score reports. And there are review courses to help students who fail.The Nursing Board still provides a score report to help students who fail to understand where they went wrong and provides CE to help pass the NCLEX. NCLEX is harder than the NAPLEX. See medicine and nursing cares about their students. Pharmacy can care less.

Failure of NABP and decentralizing the curriculum the pharmacy school system has led to this. Some schools provide no review for MPJE, and some schools prep students for MPJE. And NABP is stuck in the old ways of standardized testing and do not even try to help students at all. No wonder students have to resort to cheating.
NABP needs to do more help students pass the MPJE or even NAPLEX like provide a score report for one thing and let students take Pre MPJE or Pre NAPLEX multiple times for the same state.

Texas Southern University had about 5 students that got caught cheating on the license exam.

 

[American Princess]

What's wrong at MCPHS school?

I've seen these articles about MCPHS school

Boston pharmacy program put on probation - The Boston Globe

The signature pharmacy degree program at MCPHS University in Boston has been placed on academic probation for having too few professors and overcrowded buildings.

www.bostonglobe.com

Massachusetts pharmacy college continues torrid run

https://www.bizjournals.com/boston/blog/mass_roundup/2014/08/massachusetts-pharmacy-college-continues-torrid.html

 

[Dred Pirate]

NABP needs to do more to help students who fail. They don’t even try to help students who fail the MPJE. And the ridiculous thing is you can only take the Pre MPJE once for each state??? Also no score report to see how well you did or what one needs to improve on.

As tough as the USMLE and Boards are, NABM at least provides score reports. And there are review courses to help students who fail.The Nursing Board still provides a score report to help students who fail to understand where they went wrong and provides CE to help pass the NCLEX. NCLEX is harder than the NAPLEX. See medicine and nursing cares about their students. Pharmacy can care less.

Failure of NABP and decentralizing the curriculum the pharmacy school system has led to this. Some schools provide no review for MPJE, and some schools prep students for MPJE. And NABP is stuck in the old ways of standardized testing and do not even try to help students at all. No wonder students have to resort to cheating.
NABP needs to do more help students pass the MPJE or even NAPLEX like provide a score report for one thing and let students take Pre MPJE or Pre NAPLEX multiple times for the same state.

It is not the NABP's job to helps students who fail. It is the job the school you are paying tuition to provide you the education/resources needed to pass.

 

[Sine Cura]

I noticed Hampton claimed racial discrimination against ACPE. ACPE Outcomes Disclosure Information - School of Pharmacy

Lol. What about Florida A&M? Howard?

What a clown show

 

[American Princess]

I noticed Hampton claimed racial discrimination against ACPE. ACPE Outcomes Disclosure Information - School of Pharmacy

Lol. What about Florida A&M? Howard?

What a clown show

and Texas Southern University too.

 

[johnpharm01]

It is not the NABP's job to helps students who fail. It is the job the school you are paying tuition to provide you the education/resources needed to pass.

I agree. Go to a good school. Study hard get practical experience as a technician which alone will help. Then take advantage of experiential rotations in pharmacy school. Review your butt off before naplex and mpje. Then you'll pass. You aren't flipping burgers anymore. PHARMACY IS A PROFESSION. If you don't pass maybe you aren't smart enough or dedicated enough or whatever. The goal is to ensure qualified pharmacists not get you a job, that's your problem.

 

[PharFromNormal]

It is not the NABP's job to helps students who fail. It is the job the school you are paying tuition to provide you the education/resources needed to pass.

I’d slightly modify this to... it’s the job of the school to meet the requirements that ACPE defines to maintain accreditation. Those requirements should support what is required to pass. From a pure literal perspective if we said it takes paying money to sit for the test in order to pass, and money is a resource... it is not the job of the school to provide you that money to pay to take the test...

There is education and resources required outside of what the school provides that is needed to pass. Don’t expect the school to teach you how to drive or take public transportation to get to the testing center...

You get my point...

 

[owlegrad]

You get my point...

I actually do not get your point.

 

[deleted562805]

Schools needed to have higher admissions standards.

A score report might be helpful though. No real excuse not to have one since admissions exams (MCAT, PCAT) have those.

USMLE has a score report and so does the NCLEX

 

[deleted562805]

It is not the NABP's job to helps students who fail. It is the job the school you are paying tuition to provide you the education/resources needed to pass.

Resources and materials- no health care Board is going to provide that. That’s up to you, schools.

But the NABP can provide a score report to show where students failed on the NAPLEX and or MPJE and allow students take the Pre NaPLEX and Pre MPJE multiple times. This is where the NABP is not helpful to students.

No excuse to not provide a score report because NABM and Nursing Board at least provide a score report for their respective exams, USMLE and NCLEX.

 

[Marzapan]

LMAO California Northstate sent out an email to preceptors saying they got the 4th highest CPJE pass rate.

You mean the 4th least crappiest.

EGYPT (22/32 = .6875) has a better pass rate than West Coast (17/32 = .53125)

At least they can claim that they are a top 500 pharmacy school

 

[johnpharm01]

Resources and materials- no health care Board is going to provide that. That’s up to you, schools.

But the NABP can provide a score report to show where students failed on the NAPLEX and or MPJE and allow students take the Pre NaPLEX and Pre MPJE multiple times. This is where the NABP is not helpful to students.

No excuse to not provide a score report because NABM and Nursing Board at least provide a score report for their respective exams, USMLE and NCLEX.

They would charge an extra $250. Want to pass mpje? I'll gladly teach you pharmacy law and guarantee you'll pass. But you have to consent in writing to physical discipline a la Stephen King quitters inc. Oh and pay my usual rate. I have passed every time first attempt from self study.

 

[Momus]

2 pharmacy school down
3 pharmacy school down
4 pharmacy school down
5 pharmacy school down

CVS can boost the morale at work with this update.

 

[8turkeys]

Mcw is next

 

[deleted562805]

They would charge an extra $250. Want to pass mpje? I'll gladly teach you pharmacy law and guarantee you'll pass. But you have to consent in writing to physical discipline a la Stephen King quitters inc. Oh and pay my usual rate. I have passed every time first attempt from self study.

Okay, this statement is a troll statement. And this statement is why pharmacy is terrible from the top down. And why the status quo is what makes pharmacy below the medicine and nursing.

They wouldn’t charge an extra 250 when every standardized exam offered by medical and nursing organizations offers a score report with no extra charge

 

[deleted562805]

I agree. Go to a good school. Study hard get practical experience as a technician which alone will help. Then take advantage of experiential rotations in pharmacy school. Review your butt off before naplex and mpje. Then you'll pass. You aren't flipping burgers anymore. PHARMACY IS A PROFESSION. If you don't pass maybe you aren't smart enough or dedicated enough or whatever. The goal is to ensure qualified pharmacists not get you a job, that's your problem.

Go to good school??? Many people from good schools have failed the MPJE.

 

[rph3664]

anyone know whether there is a certain amount of attempts that a student has to pass the exam?
I wonder if one of these deans will try to have the exam revamped or eliminated like they did to the 900 hours of outside intern hours, which was a barrier to getting licensed for a lot of people.

Don't know about now, but when I was in school, you had 10 chances to take the exam, and had to pass within 5 years of graduation.

Like I've said before and probably will again, Drake almost lost its accreditation in the 1980s because they had students who never passed boards.

 

[PharmtoCS]

2 pharmacy school down
3 pharmacy school down
4 pharmacy school down
5 pharmacy school down

CVS can boost the morale at work with this update.

They need to keep their workers in fear.

More pharmacy schools means more desperate new grads with $200k+ in loans willing to work harder for less pay.

 

[AC3_PharmD]

I had a hard time passing the MPJE and I would have LOVED a score report, at least to see where I needed to focus more. I feel like the law exams are so hit or miss; people literally come out having no idea what happened or where they stand.

 

[TranslationalRPh]

W

Go to good school??? Many people from good schools have failed the MPJE.

While personally I love law, I did think MPJE was in an entirely different situation. Personally, I have only had 1 law class whereas the majority of my curriculum in pharmacy school seemed more aligned with NAPLEX content (either directly or indirectly). Anecdotally, I know of excellent students who did not pass MPJE on first try, so maybe I am biased in thinking it is just harder in general. That said, historically it does have a lower pass rate.

 

[sfachine]

They need to keep their workers in fear.

More pharmacy schools means more desperate new grads with $200k+ in loans willing to work harder for less pay.

I know the chains helped fund the pharmacy school explosion. I dont know if they continue to fund schools. I also dont know how much the pharmaceutical associations get from them. I know they are lobbying heavily for techs to immunize so they will not have to hire pharmacists to give covid vaccinations.Money talks BS walks .

 

[johnpharm01]

I had a hard time passing the MPJE and I would have LOVED a score report, at least to see where I needed to focus more. I feel like the law exams are so hit or miss; people literally come out having no idea what happened or where they stand.

I am enjoying reading the responses on this thread. The law is public and published. Go to your boards website, print it off and memorize it. Who qualifies as a pharmacist, what must be on a prescription etc. Then apply it to practice. Read board determinations ie where pharmacists have been disciplined etc. Interact with your preceptor. It's not hard.

 

[jacksmith228833]

I've seen these articles about MCPHS school

Boston pharmacy program put on probation - The Boston Globe

The signature pharmacy degree program at MCPHS University in Boston has been placed on academic probation for having too few professors and overcrowded buildings.

www.bostonglobe.com

Massachusetts pharmacy college continues torrid run

https://www.bizjournals.com/boston/blog/mass_roundup/2014/08/massachusetts-pharmacy-college-continues-torrid.html

I did an APhA course on immunizations, and when it was time to do the actual injections, a MCPHS graduate at our table grabbed the vial, injected the needle in the vial and drew up the practice NS....5 of us at the table yelled in unison NO!...she did not sterilize the vial stopper.....

All I could think of is : Damm, this person has a PharmD!!!

 

[Sine Cura]

I honestly believe a not-insignificant # of pharmacists can't self-educate or have the ability to be introspective. I mean... if someone just finished the APhA course and doesn't even swipe the vial stopper, what hope is there for this person to function in a workplace especially in a solo-pharmacist environment.

I mean there are dumb ****ing pharmacists who faxed the prescriber's office to write for Levemir Flextouch when EMRs were still populating Flexpen... and to this day faxing prescribers to do Qvar Redihaler when coming across "Qvar" FML you're dumb as ****

 

[owlegrad]

I honestly believe a not-significant # of pharmacists can't self-educate ...

So I love this post but I am also compelled to point out the double negative. Wouldn’t this mean that there are a significant number of a pharmacist who can self educate? That seems like the opposite of your point.

 

[Sine Cura]

My litotes was incomplete. I meant not-insignificant

 

[owlegrad]

My litotes was incomplete. I meant not-insignificant

Ah a triple negative. Much better.

 

[AC3_PharmD]

I am enjoying reading the responses on this thread. The law is public and published. Go to your boards website, print it off and memorize it. Who qualifies as a pharmacist, what must be on a prescription etc. Then apply it to practice. Read board determinations ie where pharmacists have been disciplined etc. Interact with your preceptor. It's not hard.

I don't think it's that cut and dry.

I had a question on the GA MPJE regarding which of these required a script in GA in relation to diaphragms and other birth control methods.

I can promise you as someone who did download the laws and statutes on the GA website and tried to literally absorb it via every method possible including osmosis, that was NOT in the GA law. Nor was it something we covered extensively in law class (because why would we even be talking about diaphragms in this day and age?). I don't think it helped that I never worked retail I was only a hospital technician and so my one IPPE and APPE definitely didn't prepare me given my lack of experience. I can also echo others here in stating I also know plenty of excellent students who passed their NAPLEX like it was a joke but struggled 2 or 3 times with the MPJE.

Honestly I think NABP is just too lazy to try to coordinate giving out score reports for exam. But as someone who is constantly looking for ways to improve, I personally would have appreciated one during the process.

Edit: Fixed, don't want anyone to think I'm reproducing test questions because that's all I really need LOL

 

[WorthlessOxygen]

because why would we even be talking about diaphragms in this day and age?

That's exactly what I said last week while filling a prescription for one! Wild times

 

[AC3_PharmD]

That's exactly what I said last week while filling a prescription for one! Wild times

Well I wish I had spent more time at your store because then I would have had some clue

 

[PromisedNeverland]

NABP needs to do more to help students who fail. They don’t even try to help students who fail the MPJE. And the ridiculous thing is you can only take the Pre MPJE once for each state??? Also no score report to see how well you did or what one needs to improve on.

As tough as the USMLE and Boards are, NABM at least provides score reports. And there are review courses to help students who fail.The Nursing Board still provides a score report to help students who fail to understand where they went wrong and provides CE to help pass the NCLEX. NCLEX is harder than the NAPLEX. See medicine and nursing cares about their students. Pharmacy can care less.

Failure of NABP and decentralizing the curriculum the pharmacy school system has led to this. Some schools provide no review for MPJE, and some schools prep students for MPJE. And NABP is stuck in the old ways of standardized testing and do not even try to help students at all. No wonder students have to resort to cheating.
NABP needs to do more help students pass the MPJE or even NAPLEX like provide a score report for one thing and let students take Pre MPJE or Pre NAPLEX multiple times for the same state.

there is no Pre CPJE so why does it matter? CPJE > MPJE in difficulty anywho

 

[johnpharm01]

I don't think it's that cut and dry.

I had a question on the GA MPJE regarding which of these required a script in GA in relation to diaphragms and other birth control methods.

I can promise you as someone who did download the laws and statutes on the GA website and tried to literally absorb it via every method possible including osmosis, that was NOT in the GA law. Nor was it something we covered extensively in law class (because why would we even be talking about diaphragms in this day and age?). I don't think it helped that I never worked retail I was only a hospital technician and so my one IPPE and APPE definitely didn't prepare me given my lack of experience. I can also echo others here in stating I also know plenty of excellent students who passed their NAPLEX like it was a joke but struggled 2 or 3 times with the MPJE.

Honestly I think NABP is just too lazy to try to coordinate giving out score reports for exam. But as someone who is constantly looking for ways to improve, I personally would have appreciated one during the process.

Edit: Fixed, don't want anyone to think I'm reproducing test questions because that's all I really need LOL

Funny I had this question come up in practice as a customer was out of refills on their ocp. I answered condom because diaphragms although otc were not available. Your example was straightforward. We are each entitled to your own opinion, keep yours and keep testing multiple times while I pass the first time around.

 

[AC3_PharmD]

Funny I had this question come up in practice as a customer was out of refills on their ocp. I answered condom because diaphragms although otc were not available. Your example was straightforward. We are each entitled to your own opinion, keep yours and keep testing multiple times while I pass the first time around.

You're right, we're both entitled to an opinion, but you responded to mine so pointedly. Honestly, I really don't understand the reasoning of trying to put down someone who admits they've struggled. It just kinda makes you look...bad.

I thankfully don't have to worry about a lot of script/otc stuff (or diaphragm crap LOL) because I work in the emergency department and it sounds like you have a lot more experience than I do with that, which is fantastic. I've only practiced in the hospital from PY1-PharmD so these are things that I just haven't seen as consistently. Probably admittedly made my road a lot harder: exposure to situations helps with success especially with the law.

I'm not trying to internet battle on who is or isn't right on passing the MPJE, that ish is stupid. All I'm saying is that people DO struggle and it's not as straightforward or as easy as you're making it out to be. And honestly, that's perfectly okay that you are flying through it. I'm just not going to deny that it was a challenge to pass and that to me after multiple times trying different strategies, it was still difficult. I also don't see what's the harm in saying a score sheet would be AWESOME. I will say that I know many residents at top tier programs, pharmacists who moved from other areas, and students who literally went to school in GA and had preparatory programs that all had the same result: fail.

I'm fully licensed in multiple states so at the end of the day what does it matter? If you're easily passing everything that comes your way, you are too. Which is good, in my honest opinion we probably need more pharmacists like you.

 

[Sine Cura]

NAPLEX has rando questions too. It's just that you prob don't remember them.

Diaphragms are NOT OTC so your MPJE question is prob a basic process-of-elimination question.

 

[owlegrad]

NAPLEX has rando questions too. It's just that you prob don't remember them.

Diaphragms are NOT OTC so your MPJE question is prob a basic process-of-elimination question.

Yeah I think it’s funny to claim that the law doesn’t cover what drugs/medical devices are OTC and RX only. Obviously the law does cover that, it’s just up to the test taker to know which is which.

I actually am not claiming it is easy (although I think it is easier than Naplex but that’s just me) but it certainly is covered in the law.

 

[AC3_PharmD]

Honestly I think that's the example that's stuck out to me because it showed up on the GA MPJE for myself and my co-residents and we discussed it. When you've got to take things multiple times questions start sticking lol

And it's crazy that you say that because I thought the NAPLEX was a joke! if you had 4 years of good pharmacy training should be manageable and straightforward. I haven't had any of my friends or people I know personally who have struggled with the NAPLEX. I also studied for that for 10 days and was told by another pharmacist that was too long so take that for what it's worth lol

So I don't think I'd push as hard for a NAPLEX score report. After 4 years basic pharmacy competency should be ingrained I would hope.

 

[Sine Cura]

If you studied NAPLEX then the diaphragm question is a joke. You'd think they'd cover that when going over contraception

I mean "everything" is fair game

 

[AC3_PharmD]

Also I feel like I helped seriously derail wherever this thread was going so my apologies

 

[AC3_PharmD]

If you studied NAPLEX then the diaphragm question is a joke. You'd think they'd cover that when going over contraception

I mean "everything" is fair game

Asking how to use a diaphragm or therapeutic efficacy of contraceptive methods I'll take those questions all day.

Asking if it's otc vs needs a script in a select all with 5 other contraceptive methods to me wasn't as clear. Again maybe it's my lack of experience in the community setting and exposure but I received extensive training on pharmacy practice and therapeutics not pharmacy law. But hey, maybe that's a curriculum issue and schools should be focusing more on that area. The numbers certainly seem to bear that part out, even at some of the "top" schools in the country.

 

[moolman]

The CPJE rate going down is easy. Many people cheated like when they got caught last year. It was common for friends to memorize the questions and give them to you. Why is this a new revelation?

UCI will end up being a good school, just like UCSF and UCSD but at least when UCSD opened, there wasn't any pharmacy schools in SD. There's so many in the OC area and LA area. What need is there except to make money. They are doing nothing special and are not helping the profession, only hurting it.