2 pharmacy schools shut down, which ones next

[American Princess]

can someone please tell me were are the current passing rates? Thank you

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[Drakulie]

OK so we finally have two pharmacy schools shut down - Hampton University's appeal got denied and California Health Sciences University (CHSU) did not progress to accredited status - https://www.acpe-accredit.org/pdf/ReportofProceedingsJulyandAugust2020FINAL.pdf

Which are the next 5 to go down - any guesses?

My wild guesses -

Larkin and AUHS do not progress to accredited status (like CHSU)
Chicago State
Not sure what the fifth one could be

Lets work on shutting down 50 % of the school of pharmacies across this country.

 

[Yesenia Amaro]

Hi all, my name is Yesenia Amaro, and I'm a journalist at The Fresno Bee. I'm currently working on a story, and I'm really hoping to interview students currently in the "teachout" plan or phase at the College of Pharmacy at California Health Sciences University in Clovis, California. I'm hoping to know and better understand what this means for students, their future careers in pharmacy and potential debt, given the college will close after 2024 because it failed to obtain pre-accreditation. If you are a student currently in the teachout phase or were among the 44 new students who had to transition to another pharmacy school in 2020, I would love to hear from you. I can be reached here, or at [email protected]. I'm really, really hoping to hear the personal stories from students. Thank you.

 

[GrandTheftAutumn]

Pulitzer Prize candidate

 

[mentos]

Should write about how the pharmacy job market is dead instead.

 

[vesfly]

Just confirmed with one of my students that there are 18 P1 students at UNE this fall. They suckered a few in last minute. I am not sure how they are staying open. I am curious to see the numbers from other schools current P1s.

 

[APN-59 rph]

Should write about how the pharmacy job market is dead instead.

I flounder around part time and it's been fairly slow.....until recently. It seems that all of a sudden there is a shortage of RPh help and a lot of job hopping and turn over...I'm told that outfits are screaming for help all of a sudden.....Soooo wahzzzup? Upper Mid-West...

 

[PrincessSnow]

I am not sure but I see a lot of retail opening in the South, People have told me that people are quitting even though they do not have other jobs lined up. I don't know what is happening, maybe they are already changing the pharmacist and technicians job roles already to do more and more. I know about three years ago my manager said I would be lucky to have a job at all in the next few years and I just do not know when the chop is going to happen. The pharmacy students are saying that pharmacists "nitch" is med rec even though the board of pharmacy here allows technicians to do med rec. They want to pull pharmacist from their roles and give these roles to the technicians and the pharmacist to do the tech roles. It is just a matter of time like people on SDN have said that it will be mostly technicians doing pharmacist roles and nursing roles. The article from 2016 called The rise of the pharmacy technicians: the next steps in my opinion will soon make it to the USA. Patient counseling and med rec is being done by pharmacy technicians in London. Some areas in London also has the pharmacy tech administer medications for the nurses (even IV injections for oncology). They also mention implementing pharmacy technician-led clinics, such as asthma reviews, warfarin clinics, pre-admission clinics, first cycle chemo counseling, or diabetes clinics saying nurses lead the way on these so why not a pharmacy tech. They also had a tech in charge of the pharmacist and the schedule for the pharmacists which actually happened here is the South where a tech was hired after a pharmacy director left to be the pharmacy operations manager (I was wondering who was going to be on call if anyone called in since someone had to take call). What is driving all this is the government payment model for value based patient centered care which many other countries already have such as Canada, UK, England (population heath). Many places already have nurses running ambulatory care clinics, some places already have techs doing this. I hear my bosses saying "follow the money" we are not going to be doing what we are now in the next few years. I have an RN and a PharmD license but it appears that the license to have is pharmacy technician in the future! I do not know what is going on with the shortage overall. Maybe some others can give input on that.

The rise of the pharmacy technician: the next steps

Pharmacy technicians are taking on more responsibilities to free pharmacists to carry out clinical services, but the role is being interpreted differently across pharmacy settings and there is no clear definition of what the role should entail.

pharmaceutical-journal.com

 

[Xenophylia]

Based on the many techs I've worked with over the years, the thought of these same techs doing some of these tasks is utterly hilarious.

 

[RXDOC1986]

I am not sure but I see a lot of retail opening in the South, People have told me that people are quitting even though they do not have other jobs lined up. I don't know what is happening, maybe they are already changing the pharmacist and technicians job roles already to do more and more. I know about three years ago my manager said I would be lucky to have a job at all in the next few years and I just do not know when the chop is going to happen. The pharmacy students are saying that pharmacists "nitch" is med rec even though the board of pharmacy here allows technicians to do med rec. They want to pull pharmacist from their roles and give these roles to the technicians and the pharmacist to do the tech roles. It is just a matter of time like people on SDN have said that it will be mostly technicians doing pharmacist roles and nursing roles. The article from 2016 called The rise of the pharmacy technicians: the next steps in my opinion will soon make it to the USA. Patient counseling and med rec is being done by pharmacy technicians in London. Some areas in London also has the pharmacy tech administer medications for the nurses (even IV injections for oncology). They also mention implementing pharmacy technician-led clinics, such as asthma reviews, warfarin clinics, pre-admission clinics, first cycle chemo counseling, or diabetes clinics saying nurses lead the way on these so why not a pharmacy tech. They also had a tech in charge of the pharmacist and the schedule for the pharmacists which actually happened here is the South where a tech was hired after a pharmacy director left to be the pharmacy operations manager (I was wondering who was going to be on call if anyone called in since someone had to take call). What is driving all this is the government payment model for value based patient centered care which many other countries already have such as Canada, UK, England (population heath). Many places already have nurses running ambulatory care clinics, some places already have techs doing this. I hear my bosses saying "follow the money" we are not going to be doing what we are now in the next few years. I have an RN and a PharmD license but it appears that the license to have is pharmacy technician in the future! I do not know what is going on with the shortage overall. Maybe some others can give input on that.

The rise of the pharmacy technician: the next steps

Pharmacy technicians are taking on more responsibilities to free pharmacists to carry out clinical services, but the role is being interpreted differently across pharmacy settings and there is no clear definition of what the role should entail.

pharmaceutical-journal.com

The doom and gloom future forecast for the Pharmacy Profession has been around for DECADES. If you were around the profession for the last 40 years, like me, you would have a much better perspective on this issue. We were being told, in 1986, that our jobs would be gone in 20-30 years, computers, automation, and Robots would replace all of us!
Discounting the "too expensive education" and "too many graduates" theme of this board, pharmacy is still a viable, essential profession, and will be 40 years from now.
No doubt that the profession needs to flex and evolve, and it has done that through the decades. The key is not looking at the bits and pieces of traditional roles we have to give up, but what we can do next to move the profession forward.

 

[PrincessSnow]

The doom and gloom future forecast for the Pharmacy Profession has been around for DECADES. If you were around the profession for the last 40 years, like me, you would have a much better perspective on this issue. We were being told, in 1986, that our jobs would be gone in 20-30 years, computers, automation, and Robots would replace all of us!
Discounting the "too expensive education" and "too many graduates" theme of this board, pharmacy is still a viable, essential profession, and will be 40 years from now.
No doubt that the profession needs to flex and evolve, and it has done that through the decades. The key is not looking at the bits and pieces of traditional roles we have to give up, but what we can do next to move the profession forward.

Things do have to change and it appears to be working in these other countries (not sure if they are getting good outcomes). My husband has been a pharmacist since the 70's and he said all of this has been going on for years. Healthcare has just become so expensive without good outcomes here in the US. Basically you go to a provider and they just keep referring you to someone else and billing and nothing seems to change anything for the patient.

 

[APN-59 rph]

I flounder around part time and it's been fairly slow.....until recently. It seems that all of a sudden there is a shortage of RPh help and a lot of job hopping and turn over...I'm told that outfits are screaming for help all of a sudden.....Soooo wahzzzup? Upper Mid-West...

Just an update..Not sure what this means but my pharmacist insurance agent tells me that in Arkansas a LOT of small pharmacy operations are closing and selling out to CVS...Aaaaaand I'm turning down days and still working half time-ish..11 hour days..job hopping continues as before...

 

[baronzb]

Just an update..Not sure what this means but my pharmacist insurance agent tells me that in Arkansas a LOT of small pharmacy operations are closing and selling out to CVS...Aaaaaand I'm turning down days and still working half time-ish..11 hour days..job hopping continues as before...

just talked to a sterile compounding, outpatient retail hybrid. can't make money anymore because of pbms, not just mandatory mail order, but discriminatory, targeted low reimbursements. i assume same with outpatient non-sterile. Big companies get better reimbursement.

 

[baronzb]

Hi all, my name is Yesenia Amaro, and I'm a journalist at The Fresno Bee. I'm currently working on a story, and I'm really hoping to interview students currently in the "teachout" plan or phase at the College of Pharmacy at California Health Sciences University in Clovis, California. I'm hoping to know and better understand what this means for students, their future careers in pharmacy and potential debt, given the college will close after 2024 because it failed to obtain pre-accreditation. If you are a student currently in the teachout phase or were among the 44 new students who had to transition to another pharmacy school in 2020, I would love to hear from you. I can be reached here, or at [email protected]. I'm really, really hoping to hear the personal stories from students. Thank you.

students will be fine, as the school closing with cancel their student loan debt. if it stays open, they will have to pay the debt and be unemployed in a hypersaturated pharmacist job market.

 

[vesfly]

I am hearing 11 incoming P1s for UNE. This is after having 17 this past year.

 

[projektreverb]

I am hearing 11 incoming P1s for UNE. This is after having 17 this past year.

How is that program even sustainable?

 

[sunnyandseventytwo]

How is that program even sustainable?

Any time I see a business that looks like it shouldn't be able to remain open in my area, I figure it's a meth lab.

 

[BenJammin]

I think we're entering an age where high school graduates are opting out of higher education and instead directly entering the work force. Can't say I blame them. Why go to school for 4 years for a computer engineering degree when a company can see some promise in me, hire me out of school, and build me up to the point where I could run circles around graduating seniors?

 

[mentos]

I think we're entering an age where high school graduates are opting out of higher education and instead directly entering the work force. Can't say I blame them. Why go to school for 4 years for a computer engineering degree when a company can see some promise in me, hire me out of school, and build me up to the point where I could run circles around graduating seniors?

Where can you get hired with just a high school diploma?

 

[projektreverb]

Where can you get hired with just a high school diploma?

I think poster may have been eluding to things like trades and IT world that often just requires certifications (which you do have to chase the latest cert all the time) but the point of no 4 year degree still stands.

 

[RXDOC1986]

Where can you get hired with just a high school diploma?

Before you say, this is a unicorn sort of job, I will agree! But it's out there!
My younger son, struggling with higher education in a decent state university, dropped out (4 yrs in) and moved to So.Cal with promises of an Auto detailing job paying big money. An old high school "friend" had set this up and recruited 4 HS classmates. This turned out to be a front for drug transport crew.
Okay, that's how you make big money w/o college degree
-NO, NO, NO
When my son figured out the risks, he opted out quickly and came back home. A few of his HS friends are still doing this! 4 years later (job security) I imagine
He was working fast food, when I reached out to an acquaintance who is a Vice President of (then eTrade) now Morgan Stanley. Son was hired as FP customer relations, he quickly moved up, passed Series 7, then Series 63 and 65 to become a licensed stock broker, next is CFP designation.
he is on track to make $100-250K with Morgan Stanley.
With a senior VP that's got his back. BTW, this Senior VP doesn't have a college degree, either.

 

[mentos]

Before you say, this is a unicorn sort of job, I will agree! But it's out there!
My younger son, struggling with higher education in a decent state university, dropped out (4 yrs in) and moved to So.Cal with promises of an Auto detailing job paying big money. An old high school "friend" had set this up and recruited 4 HS classmates. This turned out to be a front for drug transport crew.
Okay, that's how you make big money w/o college degree
-NO, NO, NO
When my son figured out the risks, he opted out quickly and came back home. A few of his HS friends are still doing this! 4 years later (job security) I imagine
He was working fast food, when I reached out to an acquaintance who is a Vice President of (then eTrade) now Morgan Stanley. Son was hired as FP customer relations, he quickly moved up, passed Series 7, then Series 63 and 65 to become a licensed stock broker, next is CFP designation.
he is on track to make $100-250K with Morgan Stanley.
With a senior VP that's got his back. BTW, this Senior VP doesn't have a college degree, either.

So he's a real life Will Smith from "The Pursuit of Happiness".

 

[mentos]

I think poster may have been eluding to things like trades and IT world that often just requires certifications (which you do have to chase the latest cert all the time) but the point of no 4 year degree still stands.

He said a high school graduate can run circles around graduating college seniors with a computer engineering degree.

 

[RXDOC1986]

So he's a real life Will Smith from "The Pursuit of Happiness".

Well, except the part where he is living in the subway bathrooms!!!!
My son lives in our Mini mansion, and we paid off his credit cards a number of times during his misadventures!

Hey it's not me, their mom will bail them out for ever, she is from the "old country"

 

[BenJammin]

He said a high school graduate can run circles around graduating college seniors with a computer engineering degree.

That's not what I said.

 

[projektreverb]

He said a high school graduate can run circles around graduating college seniors with a computer engineering degree.

I believe his statement was “be hired and built up to run circles around a senior”, so basically on the job training. Not quite your statement

 

[mentos]

That's not what I said.

So where can someone with a high school diploma be hired and built up to run circles around a college senior?

 

[BenJammin]

So where can someone with a high school diploma be hired and built up to run circles around a college senior?

Thiel Fellowship is the first thing that pops to mind.

 

[sunnyandseventytwo]

Thiel Fellowship is the first thing that pops to mind.

I suppose that's more likely than playing in the NBA straight out of high school.

 

[mentos]

I suppose that's more likely than playing in the NBA straight out of high school.

It is because you can't enter the NBA draft straight out of high school anymore.

I'm telling my kids to skip college and do either the Thiel Fellowship or become a stock broker.

 

[RXDOC1986]

It is because you can't enter the NBA draft straight out of high school anymore.

I'm telling my kids to skip college and do either the Thiel Fellowship or become a stock broker.

What is wrong with trade schools? Electrician, plumber, or HVAC. They make bank. I have an old friend who is HVAC X 24 yrs. He has the fancy
M-B Van, picks and chooses who his clients are, pretty certain he makes more money than me!
When I even floated the idea to my wife, re our two adult sons, she shot me down. She is an immigrant, like me, higher education is mandatory.

BTW, you can't just tell your kids to be stock brokers, and make it happen. In order to take the 7series, 63, 65 and FNP certifications, you have to be sponsored (and employed) by a brokerage firm. And to be employed by a brokerage firm, you have to compete with thousands of other applicants with BS, even MS finance degrees. Who do you think gets hired first? Back to college degree.

I truly think that in the modern world, employers just want to see a BS degree, as measure of the young person's capabilities. Just basic stuff, like can he show up for classes, can he focus on studies, can he follow through on commitments, and can he stay on task for extended time. It really doesn't matter what major you picked.

 

[sunnyandseventytwo]

It is because you can't enter the NBA draft straight out of high school anymore.

I'm telling my kids to skip college and do either the Thiel Fellowship or become a stock broker.

That’s not true. You just need to turn 19 the year you are drafted.

 

[mentos]

That’s not true. You just need to turn 19 the year you are drafted.

Can you go to the NBA out of high school? Understanding rules of entry in the league

Some of the greatest players in the history of the NBA, including LeBron James, Dwight Howard, Kobe Bryant, Kevin Garnett and Tracy McGrady, were all high school draftees.

www.sportskeeda.com

They have to be 19 and one year removed from high school. So they still have to wait a year.

 

[mentos]

What is wrong with trade schools? Electrician, plumber, or HVAC. They make bank. I have an old friend who is HVAC X 24 yrs. He has the fancy
M-B Van, picks and chooses who his clients are, pretty certain he makes more money than me!
When I even floated the idea to my wife, re our two adult sons, she shot me down. She is an immigrant, like me, higher education is mandatory.

BTW, you can't just tell your kids to be stock brokers, and make it happen. In order to take the 7series, 63, 65 and FNP certifications, you have to be sponsored (and employed) by a brokerage firm. And to be employed by a brokerage firm, you have to compete with thousands of other applicants with BS, even MS finance degrees. Who do you think gets hired first? Back to college degree.

I truly think that in the modern world, employers just want to see a BS degree, as measure of the young person's capabilities. Just basic stuff, like can he show up for classes, can he focus on studies, can he follow through on commitments, and can he stay on task for extended time. It really doesn't matter what major you picked.

I was just kidding.

The trades are great and lucrative no doubt. They are hard on the joints and body though, I think it'd be good for a younger person but harder later on. My plumber was around age 30 and carried a heavy water heater to the basement and said "I'm getting too old for this ****!". It would be hard to do stuff like that in your 40s and later.

I had another plumber whose son was assisting him. He was a student at UCLA and learned plumbing on the side with his Dad. What a great side hustle!

 

[sunnyandseventytwo]

Can you go to the NBA out of high school? Understanding rules of entry in the league

Some of the greatest players in the history of the NBA, including LeBron James, Dwight Howard, Kobe Bryant, Kevin Garnett and Tracy McGrady, were all high school draftees.

www.sportskeeda.com

They have to be 19 and one year removed from high school. So they still have to wait a year.

Wow, you are correct. The Thiel Fellowship it is.

 

[RXDOC1986]

I was just kidding.

The trades are great and lucrative no doubt. They are hard on the joints and body though, I think it'd be good for a younger person but harder later on. My plumber was around age 30 and carried a heavy water heater to the basement and said "I'm getting too old for this ****!". It would be hard to do stuff like that in your 40s and later.

I had another plumber whose son was assisting him. He was a student at UCLA and learned plumbing on the side with his Dad. What a great side hustle!

You have to work smarter, not harder. My HVAC buddy, replaced our 3 A/C units, each 4 ton unit is a good 200-300 lb, the inside furnace maybe 200 lb. He had 4 guys, did the heavy lifting for him, I am sure for minimum wage. 4 hours later, he got paid $25,000, while telling me what a deal I got.
So, no, if you are good, you are not lifting anything heavier than my AMEX card. These guys always have an apprentice or two working for peanuts, to learn the trade

 

[mentos]

You have to work smarter, not harder. My HVAC buddy, replaced our 3 A/C units, each 4 ton unit is a good 200-300 lb, the inside furnace maybe 200 lb. He had 4 guys, did the heavy lifting for him, I am sure for minimum wage. 4 hours later, he got paid $25,000, while telling me what a deal I got.
So, no, if you are good, you are not lifting anything heavier than my AMEX card. These guys always have an apprentice or two working for peanuts, to learn the trade

That's smart of your HVAC buddy. But minimum wage for heavy lifting? No way! Doesn't he have to have liability insurance for them too? That must cost a lot. What happens if they drop a 300 lb unit on their foot?

 

[RXDOC1986]

That's smart of your HVAC buddy. But minimum wage for heavy lifting? No way! Doesn't he have to have liability insurance for them too? That must cost a lot. What happens if they drop a 300 lb unit on their foot?

In an ideal world, these are legitimate points, but come on, this here is the real world.
Unskilled, undocumented laborers, don't really have "workman's comp" coverage, nor max lifting weight restrictions, hanging out in front of Home Depot.
Not throwing shade at anyone, I could have very easily been hanging out in front of Home Depot, if not for a few lucky turns.
The economy in Georgia runs on undocumented laborers, your beautiful $500K home would be over $750K, if the builder had to have liability and workman's comp. And a great many hardworking people would be out of a job.

 

[mentos]

In an ideal world, these are legitimate points, but come on, this here is the real world.
Unskilled, undocumented laborers, don't really have "workman's comp" coverage, nor max lifting weight restrictions, hanging out in front of Home Depot.
Not throwing shade at anyone, I could have very easily been hanging out in front of Home Depot, if not for a few lucky turns.
The economy in Georgia runs on undocumented laborers, your beautiful $500K home would be over $750K, if the builder had to have liability and workman's comp. And a great many hardworking people would be out of a job.

Oh, I don't think day laborers are common in the northeast. I haven't noticed any whenever I go to Home Depot or Lowe's. Maybe that's why new homes here cost 1-2mil.

 

[RXDOC1986]

Oh, I don't think day laborers are common in the northeast. I haven't noticed any whenever I go to Home Depot or Lowe's. Maybe that's why new homes here cost 1-2mil.

You got that right. Here in Georgia, if you know a little Spanish, you can get unskilled day laborers, or even master craftsmen, for very reasonable prices, not cheap. Minimum $12-15 - they know the going rate. The economy, residential and agricultural, is based on their work. ICE has a don't ask don't tell attitude. You have 40-50 people at certain Home Depots, not Lowes (JK). Nobody in law enforcement bothers them.
You are correct about housing costs, reasonable, affordable. Brand new construction home, 4BR, 2.5BA going at $400-500K. We have been looking a bit for my oldest son.

 

[Emmet2301]

So where can someone with a high school diploma be hired and built up to run circles around a college senior?

I work in tech. If you have some certs either from a specialized HS program or community college or even during your own time you can get a job in IT, work for a few years and be better prepared by the time the college student graduates. (This is more so for IT such as sys admin/networking etc. Hardcore programming might be a bit harder.)

 

[mentos]

I work in tech. If you have some certs either from a specialized HS program or community college or even during your own time you can get a job in IT, work for a few years and be better prepared by the time the college student graduates. (This is more so for IT such as sys admin/networking etc. Hardcore programming might be a bit harder.)

Poster specifically mentioned computer engineering though, that's different right? So far the only option mentioned is the Thiel Fellowship which has a less than 0.1% acceptance rate. Not realistic for most people.

 

[baronzb]

If you close all the pharmacy schools, chains would cry foul/cite patient safety concerns and lobby for/fast track the creation of the certified verification technician.

Think of the rarity of the anesthesiologist and the development of a CRNA, or the massive primary care physician shortage and the expansion of FNPs in that space.

Be careful what you wish for.

CVS only stopped the H1b indentured servitude program 8 years ago. It's still better than an overabundance of graduates, but it's still a threat that could come back (it won't because of shrinking overall jobs and the likelihood of fewer school closures than necessary.)

 

[baronzb]

They were a private college of pharmacy. But they kept increasing their tuition and another more affordable pharmacy program was added across the river at SIU. Applicants decreased more and more so they added BA and BS programs to fill seats.

The old name doesn't make much sense if you are not focusing on pharmacy moving forward so they changed it. And added more degree options. They couldn't survive if they didn't broaden the curriculum.

Academics | University of Health Sciences and Pharmacy in St. Louis

Explore innovative health sciences academic programs that let you tailor your education to your goals so you can see your potential realized.

uhsp.edu

I still don't see how that is viable. How would go to a stand alone BA life sciences school?

 

[WVUPharm2007]

These WVU academic programs are under 'formal review'

While these programs are not necessarily targeted for discontinuation, they have been identified as having lower enrollment trends among other metrics.

www.wboy.com

WVU has listed its pharmacy school as a program under formal review for discontinuation.

I doubt it happens as crap like the bachelors in puppetry is probably going to get cut way before the pharmacy school. But knowing my old professors are sweating makes me laugh.

 

[PharmtoCS]

These WVU academic programs are under 'formal review'

While these programs are not necessarily targeted for discontinuation, they have been identified as having lower enrollment trends among other metrics.

www.wboy.com

WVU has listed its pharmacy school as a program under formal review for discontinuation.

I doubt it happens as crap like the bachelors in puppetry is probably going to get cut way before the pharmacy school. But knowing my old professors are sweating makes me laugh.

They must be sweating about the possibility of having to join the rest of us at CVS.

 

[WVUPharm2007]

They must be sweating about the possibility of having to join the rest of us at CVS.

If one of my old professors walked in and I had to train them, I would probably laugh uncontrollably for a few hours straight. Like, really loudly.

 

[PharmtoCS]

If one of my old professors walked in and I had to train them, I would probably laugh uncontrollably for a few hours straight. Like, really loudly.

Which they deserve every bit, since they’ll finally get a taste of the CVS job market of saturation, terrible work conditions, and crushing student debt they created for us as they hid in their ivory towers telling us that retail is beneath us.

 

[Emmet2301]

These WVU academic programs are under 'formal review'

While these programs are not necessarily targeted for discontinuation, they have been identified as having lower enrollment trends among other metrics.

www.wboy.com

WVU has listed its pharmacy school as a program under formal review for discontinuation.

I doubt it happens as crap like the bachelors in puppetry is probably going to get cut way before the pharmacy school. But knowing my old professors are sweating makes me laugh.

Wait why are they listing basically all their majors?

 

[Xenophylia]

That's a LOT of departments. The good news is, it looks like the Puppetry program didn't make the list.....