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Just to yank some of you back into reality, the 81% match rate bandied about here does not mean that 20% of this year's grads are going to be unemployed. It's the match rate for DO gloing NRMP/ACGME only.

To that you have to add the MilMatch and AOA. With all of these, the match rate rises to the mid-high 90s.

The sky is not falling folks.

And no, LCME is not going to absorb the DO schools. That's wishful thinking if I ever saw it.

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Just to yank some of you back into reality, the 81% match rate bandied about here does not mean that 20% of this year's grads are going to be unemployed. It's the match rate for DO gloing NRMP/ACGME only.

To that you have to add the MilMatch and AOA. With all of these, the match rate rises to the mid-high 90s.

The sky is not falling folks.

And no, LCME is not going to absorb the DO schools. That's wishful thinking if I ever saw it.

Thank you Goro.
 
Just to yank some of you back into reality, the 81% match rate bandied about here does not mean that 20% of this year's grads are going to be unemployed. It's the match rate for DO gloing NRMP/ACGME only.

To that you have to add the MilMatch and AOA. With all of these, the match rate rises to the mid-high 90s.

The sky is not falling folks.

And no, LCME is not going to absorb the DO schools. That's wishful thinking if I ever saw it.

Yeah, but that 81% already takes the people who went through the AOA out of the equation. So that 20% have to (hopefully) SOAP or scramble into some dead end TRI.
 
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Just to yank some of you back into reality, the 81% match rate bandied about here does not mean that 20% of this year's grads are going to be unemployed. It's the match rate for DO gloing NRMP/ACGME only.

To that you have to add the MilMatch and AOA. With all of these, the match rate rises to the mid-high 90s.

The sky is not falling folks.

And no, LCME is not going to absorb the DO schools. That's wishful thinking if I ever saw it.
Ten years ago the ACGME/AOA merger talk was completely ignored. It was never going to happen - wishful thinking, etc.

And here we are.

It makes too much sense to have a single governing body for medical school accreditation, just like it makes too much sense to have one GME accrediting body.
 
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Ten years ago the ACGME/AOA merger talk was completely ignored. It was never going to happen - wishful thinking, etc.

And here we are.

It makes too much sense to have a single governing body for medical school accreditation, just like it makes too much sense to have one GME accrediting body.
According to the wise @gonnif, plans for a merger were discussed well before that.
 
Can you enlighten an ignorant incoming student?

The match rate for MDs is around 94%. The average match rate for established DOs is around 88-90%. Placement rate after scramble and soap is currently around 98% for MDs and established DOs. It’s not the end of the world like the doom and gloom people are saying.

Finally, one of our top students with great grades and board scores decide to go FM. I am shocked about his decision. However, based on the match placement for my seniors, I am convinced that at least 225 Step 1 and not bottom quartile will leave many DOs happy with their specialties and careers. I would highly recommend taking both USMLE Step tests.
 
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Just to yank some of you back into reality, the 81% match rate bandied about here does not mean that 20% of this year's grads are going to be unemployed. It's the match rate for DO gloing NRMP/ACGME only.

To that you have to add the MilMatch and AOA. With all of these, the match rate rises to the mid-high 90s.

The sky is not falling folks.

And no, LCME is not going to absorb the DO schools. That's wishful thinking if I ever saw it.

I think one of the big concerns is what will this percentage look like once the merger is all said and done and the AOA match no longer exists.

Do we know how many AOA residencies are closing shop because of the merger?
 
I think one of the big concerns is what will this percentage look like once the merger is all said and done and the AOA match no longer exists.

Do we know how many AOA residencies are closing shop because of the merger?
Not as many as some people think, I believe it’s less than 50%
 
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...one of our top students with great grades and board scores decide to go FM. I am shocked about his decision.

Our top student (in my class) did FM too. He matched to a nice ACGME program in Colorado, but has maintained ties to the DO world and just won the AOF resident of the year award. He won just about every award at our graduation too, and his wife even won the spouse award.

Dudes a rockstar, and a friend of mine. He’s going to enter practice on a Native American reservation this year.
 
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Can you enlighten an ignorant incoming student?
Matching is matching into one of the programs you ranked. Placing takes into account people that didnt match into one of their programs they ranked and they scrambled/soaped into any specialty, as they long as they were "placed" somewhere.
 
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Not as many as some people think, I believe it’s less than 50%
Yup. And for what it's worth, my school and a few others that I've heard of, are creating residency programs.

Yes, you read that correctly. Creating programs.

And I know we managed to match students into a few brand new programs this year.

So, again, the sky is not falling.

If people aren't matching, I suspect that the causes are much similar to those as to why people don't get into med school:
red flags
poor interviews
poor board scores
too few spots on their list
aiming too high for a list

Remember, Board scores are just a screening tool. PDs want to know that you're someone that they can work with for the next three years. Those humanistic domain skills at work again, imagine that.
Wise @aProgDirector , amirite?
 
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If people aren't matching, I suspect that the causes are much similar to those as to why people don't get into med school:
red flags
poor interviews
poor board scores
too few spots on their list
aiming too high for a list

I think people hear the few stories of people simply being unlucky and then think the 20% that didn’t match were great applicants who didn’t match because of bias or that sort of thing, when the reality is that many of the people who don’t match from DO schools aren’t good candidates with red flags, or they were people trying to hit a major league home run with a wiffle ball bat.

Yes someone can do everything right and still not match, it happens, but the vast majority of people in that situation match.
 
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Not as many as some people think, I believe it’s less than 50%

Well I certainly hope it’s less than 50%, I would hope that it’s MUCH less.

I would be curious in the net change in programs between smaller AOA ones closing and new ACGME ones opening.

I’m well aware of the struggles some of these small AOA programs faced as my residency/first fellowship were at AOA programs (now at a traditional ACGME program) and I sat in our GME committee during the “transistion” and heard the issues other smaller AOA programs faced in trying to meet ACGME standards.

Honestly I think this was a long time coming, and i wouldn’t be upset if the same happened at the med school level. There’s still the issue of board certification and I hope some sort of pathway opens up to allow those from AOA programs to seek ABIM certification.
 
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Well I certainly hope it’s less than 50%, I would hope that it’s MUCH less.

I would be curious in the net change in programs will be between smaller AOA ones closing and new ACGME ones opening.

I’m well aware of the struggles some of these small AOA programs faced as my residency/first fellowship were at AOA programs (now at a traditional ACGME program) and I sat on our GME committee during the “transistion” and heard the issues other smaller AOA programs faced in trying to meet ACGME standards.

Honestly I think this was a long time coming, and i wouldn’t be upset if the same happened at the med school level. There’s still the issue of board certification and I hope some sort of pathway opens up to allow those from AOA programs to seek ABIM certification.

I love how casually the 50% was thrown around. That would be extremely determintal to DOs matching. Hell, even 25% would be.
 
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I love how casually the 50% was thrown around. That would be extremely determintal to DOs matching. Hell, even 25% would be.

Im thinking the zero after the five was a typo. If its anywhere near 50% I might have to close up shop on all of my dreams as well.
 
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I love how casually the 50% was thrown around. That would be extremely determintal to DOs matching. Hell, even 25% would be.
And I think we both know what kinds of specialties the majority of those cuts will be coming from. Of course some places just take all their specialty spots and convert them to FM so they can pass mustard, so there's that.
Im thinking the zero after the five was a typo. If its anywhere near 50% I might have to close up shop on all of my dreams as well.
Lol, you keep hoping that, that hope got you into DO school, but now fear will get you through it.
 
And I think we both know what kinds of specialties the majority of those cuts will be coming from. Of course some places just take all their specialty spots and convert them to FM so they can pass mustard, so there's that.

Passing mustard would be a problem! :D

I think you mean passing muster?
 
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As a an OMS-0 --A nobody starting med school this fall-- I have to say.. you make primary care sound awesome. lol a lot of people are out here gunning for competitive specialties, and while thats fine if its what you love, it shouldn't be the end of the world if you don't end up matching into said specialtes. After all, Id like to think we are all in it to help people, whether thats primary care or orthopedic surgery. Congratulations on loving your job the way you do, we need more people like you.

It’s Family Medicine, not primary care.

Pediatricians and Internists don’t do what we do.
 
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does anyone know what the total match percentage in the end came out to be for a do
 
To answer the question about how many DO residencies are closing, OUHCOM had a great presentation about 2 months back about the progress of the merger. Every AOA residency that closed were extremely small (2-3 residents/year or less). 90% of all residency positions will remain open (as of December 2017). Of all the closed programs, 80%+ of them were due to not being able to afford to meet the new standards. I think there are a number of positions each residency program has to hire to meet the standards the MD residencies currently run at.

And to those asking why AOA would agree to such a thing, it was made very clear in the presentation that if the AOA would not accept the merger, DOs that went into AOA residencies would not qualify for fellowships.

I'm trying to find a link to the ppt. presentation. I'll link it if I can find it.
 
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While I think the reactions here are overblown - many DO students will match elsewhere through scrambles - they are clearly not managing the brand to the long term benefit of their members.

We have another 1k DO seats coming this cycle (including a bizarre one that desperately opened applications in January), 500+ seats already approved for next cycle. On top of a residency situation that's about to shift gears and the end of protected DO residencies.

From the interview trail, I can assure you that administrative quality control is not strong for the DO brand, and some of the new programs are probably in severe need of it.
 
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It’s Family Medicine, not primary care.

Pediatricians and Internists don’t do what we do.

What a bizarre recent string of comments. Is there really a major difference between an outpatient internist and family medicine doctor?
 
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What a bizarre recent string of comments. Is there really a major difference between an outpatient internist and family medicine doctor?

Absolutely.

Main thing is that FM is trained and equipped to see all patients in all stages of life. It’s cradle to grave medicine (or as I like to joke: Diaper to Diaper medicine).

I see newborns, children, adolescents, adults. I do office (and some operative) gynecology, Obstetrics, a wide variety of office procedures, I admit patients to the hospital, I manage patients with multiple chronic conditions. And yes, I’m in a major metro area.

I my residency training I’ve maintained a patient panel of a few hundred patients. I started off being asked to see 3 patients per 4 hour clinic session. Within a couple of months this was increased to 6, and now is between 10 and 14 (depending on how many 30minute slots I have booked). I’ll have on average, 3 sessions per week, sometimes more, other times less depending on that rotation block I’m on. Those visits are a mixture of adults and children, women and men, sick and well. I’ll see acute issues, and chronic problem follow-ups.

I’ve also been trained in Inpatient Medicine, with 6 months of Hospital, and 2 ICU. I’ve done 4 months of EM, 2 of Ortho, 6 of OB, 1 of inpatient peds, 1 NICU, 1 neonatology (though FM OB months have neonatology mixed in since we take care of moms and babies), and multiple months with sub-specialists both med and surg.

I’ve been BLS, ACLS, PALS, NRP, ALSO, ATLS trained. And Data2000 waived as well.

In downtime, I’ve moonlighted as a consultant in obstetrical medicine, helping OB’s with medical issues among their pregnant patients (which is like normal stuff for a FM doc, but my bosses are fellowship trained internists).

Conversely. The IM residents, many of whom I’ve come to know and be friends with, have Had a consistent ½ day per week in their continuity clinic, and here at the end of 3rd year are now seeing 6 per half day. They don’t see kids, they don’t do women’s health beyond the ABIM minimum (they only have one faculty member who feels comfortable teaching them to do pelvic exams/pap smears) they refer to Gyn for any abnormal paps, for DUB, contraception, etc. They don’t do office procedures, they refer them to Derm or Ortho. In a class of 30, only 3 are staying in primary care. Most are either going to work as hospitalists, because that’s where they feel most adequately trained, or go on to some form of subspecilty training.

Family medicine is a lot different than Internal Medicine. If it wasn’t, I would have stayed with my original plan to go into IM, because I could have been a PCP that way too. But I knew I didn’t want to practice primary care in the way IM does it, so I switched about a month after residency apps went out. It made for a bumpy ride into residency, but I’m extremely happy where I am and have no regrets.
 
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IM FOR SURE has better residency training because you see more and get more hands on training more intensive in hospitals
 
Absolutely.

Main thing is that FM is trained and equipped to see all patients in all stages of life. It’s cradle to grave medicine (or as I like to joke: Diaper to Diaper medicine).

I see newborns, children, adolescents, adults. I do office (and some operative) gynecology, Obstetrics, a wide variety of office procedures, I admit patients to the hospital, I manage patients with multiple chronic conditions. And yes, I’m in a major metro area.

I my residency training I’ve maintained a patient panel of a few hundred patients. I started off being asked to see 3 patients per 4 hour clinic session. Within a couple of months this was increased to 6, and now is between 10 and 14 (depending on how many 30minute slots I have booked). I’ll have on average, 3 sessions per week, sometimes more, other times less depending on that rotation block I’m on. Those visits are a mixture of adults and children, women and men, sick and well. I’ll see acute issues, and chronic problem follow-ups.

I’ve also been trained in Inpatient Medicine, with 6 months of Hospital, and 2 ICU. I’ve done 4 months of EM, 2 of Ortho, 6 of OB, 1 of inpatient peds, 1 NICU, 1 neonatology (though FM OB months have neonatology mixed in since we take care of moms and babies), and multiple months with sub-specialists both med and surg.

I’ve been BLS, ACLS, PALS, NRP, ALSO, ATLS trained. And Data2000 waived as well.

In downtime, I’ve moonlighted as a consultant in obstetrical medicine, helping OB’s with medical issues among their pregnant patients (which is like normal stuff for a FM doc, but my bosses are fellowship trained internists).

Conversely. The IM residents, many of whom I’ve come to know and be friends with, have Had a consistent ½ day per week in their continuity clinic, and here at the end of 3rd year are now seeing 6 per half day. They don’t see kids, they don’t do women’s health beyond the ABIM minimum (they only have one faculty member who feels comfortable teaching them to do pelvic exams/pap smears) they refer to Gyn for any abnormal paps, for DUB, contraception, etc. They don’t do office procedures, they refer them to Derm or Ortho. In a class of 30, only 3 are staying in primary care. Most are either going to work as hospitalists, because that’s where they feel most adequately trained, or go on to some form of subspecilty training.

Family medicine is a lot different than Internal Medicine. If it wasn’t, I would have stayed with my original plan to go into IM, because I could have been a PCP that way too. But I knew I didn’t want to practice primary care in the way IM does it, so I switched about a month after residency apps went out. It made for a bumpy ride into residency, but I’m extremely happy where I am and have no regrets.
I liked your post as soon as I got to 'diapers to diapers,' but I am glad I stayed for the rest. Excellent reasons to do FM. +1 to you.
 
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IM FOR SURE has better residency training because you see more and get more hands on training more intensive in hospitals
"Better" is very relative lol. Better with managing senior citizens with many chronic conditions? Maybe. Better with managing patients in the hospital? Probably. Better with outpatient procedures? Probably not. And so on. Remember that many people are only going the IM route to get to those subspecialties. Furthermore, most hospitalist gigs (around me) are advertising for IM or FM trained physicians.
 
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You realize a lot of FM training happens in hospitals right?
Let's be honest here: IM docs are for the most part better in inpatient medicine... On the other hand, FM docs are generally better in outpatient. They design both residencies for that purpose.
 
Let's be honest here: IM docs are for the most part better in inpatient medicine... On the other hand, FM docs are generally better in outpatient. They design both residencies for that purpose.

Oh I agree. The post I quoted said that IM had "better residency training" because it happened in a hospital and I was just pointing out that FM still includes lots of hospital based training. I just don't agree with the general statement that IM residency training is better because, like you mention, they are designed for different purposes. They are better for different things, that poster was not saying that.
 
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While this statement may be more realistic in the future, I don't think there are many DOs that want this to happen. If we can, shouldn't we try to prevent it from happening?
No. There are lower admissions cutoffs for DO schools, meaning many people get accepted to medical school who otherwise wouldn't. There are tradeoffs for that. This is one of them
 
No. There are lower admissions cutoffs for DO schools, meaning many people get accepted to medical school who otherwise wouldn't. There are tradeoffs for that. This is one of them
It makes sense to prefer the applicant that has never slipped up to the one that did, as I guess is indicated by a DO sometimes. But at what point should the "slipped up" student's performance be considered to outweigh the consistent student's? a 245 DO compared to a 210 MD? Seems to me that the MD is just "slipping up" later on, which is definitely worse. I don't see the coherence, other than if explained by elitism or prejudice, to saying a better candidate with different initials should be completely or mostly barred from a specialty for the reason you cited (lower admissions standards, ergo inferior forever).
 
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It makes sense to prefer the applicant that has never slipped up to the one that did, as I guess is indicated by a DO sometimes. But at what point should the "slipped up" student's performance be considered to outweigh the consistent student's? a 245 DO compared to a 210 MD? Seems to me that the MD is just "slipping up" later on, which is definitely worse. I don't see the coherence, other than if explained by elitism or prejudice, to saying a better candidate with different initials should be completely or mostly barred from a specialty for the reason you cited (lower admissions standards, ergo inferior forever).

Because it really comes down to the two simple letters of DO not being MD. That's really it. There's a point, for all specialties, where numbers stop mattering. Sometimes that carries down to programs that aren't even elite or top tier.
 
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Because it really comes down to the two simple letters of DO not being MD. That's really it. There's a point, for all specialties, where numbers stop mattering. Sometimes that carries down to programs that aren't even elite or top tier.
This I understand.
 
A more valuable petition would be one to send to the AOA/COCA to demand no new DO schools are created/expanded. Someone should get on that.

Hear hear! Quality over quantity. Quality over god damn quantity...
 
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Hear hear! Quality over quantity. Quality over god damn quantity...
I mean, if anyone is down to do this hit me up. I'd rather do something than nothing. We complain all day on here, but how many times has COCA legitimately received student communication? Never, likely. In part because they suck, and in part because we are hesitant. Things can always be worded professionally.
 
No totals yet. When the numbers come out, I'll post another thread like I did for the last two years. (2016, 2017).

Hey Hallowmann, when you get time would you be able to post your 2018 version? I believe the numbers (for both NRMP and NMS) are published now, just as a heads up.

Think I can speak for others when I say we appreciate your posts/time!
 
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Hey Hallowmann, when you get time would you be able to post your 2018 version? I believe the numbers (for both NRMP and NMS) are published now, just as a heads up.

Think I can speak for others when I say we appreciate your posts/time!

Just saw it, I'll make it happen.
 
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I mean, if anyone is down to do this hit me up. I'd rather do something than nothing. We complain all day on here, but how many times has COCA legitimately received student communication? Never, likely. In part because they suck, and in part because we are hesitant. Things can always be worded professionally.


after charting outcomes comes out we should use that data along with the NRMP reports to construct a petition to end DO school expansion until residencies are expanded FIRST and send to all osteopathic students.
 
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after charting outcomes comes out we should use that data along with the NRMP reports to construct a petition to end DO school expansion until residencies are expanded FIRST and send to all osteopathic students.

We should not be expanding residencies. We should be closing down the excessive schools.
 
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I think that would be an even tougher sell than slowing school expansion

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The hardest thing is actually to significantly expand residencies. DO school expansion will slow down if a significant amount of grads unable to secure spots and it becomes a national issue.

In the current political climate, a DO grad who couldn’t secure a spot due to failing comlex twice complaining about an immigrant with 240 taking his spot will not garner that much sympathy.
 
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The hardest thing is actually to significantly expand residencies. DO school expansion will slow down if a significant amount of grads unable to secure spots and it becomes a national issue.

In the current political climate, a DO grad who couldn’t secure a spot due to failing comlex twice complaining about an immigrant with 240 taking his spot will not garner that much sympathy.
I think there are some interesting forces at play for residency expansion. Ama wants it, aoa probably wants it. Physicians probably do not want it. The problem is that Congress doesn't care much what physicians want, and would probably be against expanding residencies due to the cost. The second factor is why would Congress expand residencies , which would predominently be primary care , when mid levels are sitting there with full practice rights in many states and plans to expand that.


I would probably disagree with your point that people won't be sympathetic to protectionism considering our president thinks protectionism is good. I think it is going to be a rough ride for poorly performing DOs for the next few years . Plus decreases in real match rates might force cocas hand in improving schools and not greenlighting as many new schools .
 
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