,

[ThreeCheers]

If the above post is directed at me, I'm not drinking any Koolaid. I already said I took the USMLE, and would encourage all DO students to do everything in their power to take it, provided that they score 220+ on practice exams.

@W19 This particular news is surprising because many primary care PDs consistently match COMLEX only DOs, and therefore clearly trust these applicants to pass their boards.

An applicant from a middle eastern medical school is an FMG, not an IMG. If I were in a PD's shoes comparing a 420 COMLEX applicant or a 230+ Ross applicant, then I personally think it would be difficult to conclude which applicant is truly the better test taker. Obviously the Ross student's scores are more impressive, but a lot of Caribbean students are also at an advantage with how their curriculums spoonfeeds them boards prep. I'd wager that even relatively weaker test takers would hit that 230 mark if they did nothing but UFAPS all day every day for 2 years.

However, that's the perspective I formed knowing what someone that attended a DO school. I understand that ACGME PDs aren't aware of the disparity in pre-clinical curriculums, which would affect how they view IMGs vs. DOs. Many DO schools do their students a disservice with their curriculum, and I would like to see that change with the merger.

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[Dr.Jekyll75]

If the above post is directed at me, I'm not drinking any Koolaid. I already said I took the USMLE, and would encourage all DO students to do everything in their power to take it, provided that they score 220+ on practice exams.

@W19 This particular news is surprising because many primary care PDs consistently match COMLEX only DOs, and therefore clearly trust these applicants to pass their boards.

An applicant from a middle eastern medical school is an FMG, not an IMG. If I were in a PD's shoes comparing a 420 COMLEX applicant or a 230+ Ross applicant, then I personally think it would be difficult to conclude which applicant is truly the better test taker. Obviously the Ross student's scores are more impressive, but a lot of Caribbean students are also at an advantage with how their curriculums spoonfeeds them boards prep. I'd wager that even relatively weaker test takers would hit that 230 mark if they did nothing but UFAPS all day every day for 2 years.

However, that's the perspective I formed knowing what someone that attended a DO school. I understand that ACGME PDs aren't aware of the disparity in pre-clinical curriculums, which would affect how they view IMGs vs. DOs. Many DO schools do their students a disservice with their curriculum, and I would like to see that change with the merger.

Not at you , just a portion of DO students in general.

 

[Bcepacia]

Many DO students Drink the Koolaid given to them by admin and the AOA of Certifying DO , "no need for that pesk step exam. Comlex will be accepted by all "

Our school seems to be very pro comlex for whatever reason. They have reduced our dedicated to a fairly minimal timeframe (it used to be longer), and I suspect part of the reason why this is to discourage people from taking the USMLE. Pile that on with several classes that did me NO favors for the USMLE (Biochem, cough) and schedule a bunch of mandatory **** during our dediated period...

That’s eventually what did me in with the USMLE. I was really trying to make it work but having only 3 weeks to study for the USMLE + Comlex felt almost insurmountable. I was improving, but not enough to the point where I felt comfortable taking the USMLE. I know there’s people at my school who probably did this with no problem - but I’m not a superhuman. I couldn’t make it work.

And this sucks because I know this will impact me in the residency hunt, but there’s absolutely nothing I can do. I have a bunch of really intense rotations up front so I can’t take the USMLE during my rotations.

Bottom line of my rant: I wish schools would get with the times and realize that the USMLE is an important part of our application, prepare us appropriately for it and give us enough time to do an OK job on it.

 

[Dr.Jekyll75]

Our school seems to be very pro comlex for whatever reason. They have reduced our dedicated to a fairly minimal timeframe (it used to be longer), and I suspect part of the reason why this is to discourage people from taking the USMLE. Pile that on with several classes that did me NO favors for the USMLE (Biochem, cough) and schedule a bunch of mandatory **** during our dediated period...

That’s eventually what did me in with the USMLE. I was really trying to make it work but having only 3 weeks to study for the USMLE + Comlex felt almost insurmountable. I was improving, but not enough to the point where I felt comfortable taking the USMLE. I know there’s people at my school who probably did this with no problem - but I’m not a superhuman. I couldn’t make it work.

And this sucks because I know this will impact me in the residency hunt, but there’s absolutely nothing I can do. I have a bunch of really intense rotations up front so I can’t take the USMLE during my rotations.

Bottom line of my rant: I wish schools would get with the times and realize that the USMLE is an important part of our application, prepare us appropriately for it and give us enough time to do an OK job on it.

Sorry to hear this , my school was doing this for year before our class started speaking up first year. Luckily they changed it but threw in mandatory crap during the dedicated and set us back 1 month for rotations since we have so many required before we can do auditions. Ive said this before and it sounds like a conspiracy theory but just give it a listen. A majority of DO schools are in it to create PCPs they will teach you only enough to PASS comlex ( so they can show it off to premeds), not do amazing on it. Then they will post their Match list which is full. To the untrained Premed mind, youll think wow look at that, they set you up to succeed. Now theres nothing wrong with primary care specialties, but i did not have Rural north Dakota family med residency as my #1. Nothing against ND, just an example. There is those student that are very bright and can manage both and score great on both. That though is not the majority. Maybe 30-40% of the class.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Sorry to hear this , my school was doing this for year before our class started speaking up first year. Luckily they changed it but threw in mandatory crap during the dedicated and set us back 1 month for rotations since we have so many required before we can do auditions. Ive said this before and it sounds like a conspiracy theory but just give it a listen. A majority of DO schools are in it to create PCPs they will teach you only enough to PASS comlex ( so they can show it off to premeds), not do amazing on it. Then they will post their Match list which is full. To the untrained Premed mind, youll think wow look at that, they set you up to succeed. Now theres nothing wrong with primary care specialties, but i did not have Rural north Dakota family med residency as my #1. Nothing against ND, just an example. There is those student that are very bright and can manage both and score great on both. That though is not the majority. Maybe 30-40% of the class.

I’ve thought this for a while now. The schools exist to create PCPs (nothing wrong with that) but I often feel like they actively try and cap the potential of their best students.

 

[BorntobeDO?]

I’ve thought this for a while now. The schools exist to create PCPs (nothing wrong with that) but I often feel like they actively try and cap the potential of their best students.

Its not the best students they cap the most, its the middle of the class. The best students will succeed no matter what. Its that 2nd and 3rd quartile who might not have been primary care otherwise, that get shafted by these policies. They are good enough for USMLE, but not with 3 weeks prep.

 

[sab3156]

@Dr.Bruh

Somebody posted this in another thread, regarding RVU:

https://forums.studentdoctor.net/attachments/rvu-2017-institutional-snapshot-pdf.235127/

Never again do I want to hear anyone say that COMLEX percentiles are similar to USMLE percentiles...

66th percentile on COMLEX level 1.
Yet... 30th percentile on USMLE step 1.

Ouch. They also do slightly better than KCU on level 1.

 

[DrStephenStrange]

@Dr.Bruh

Somebody posted this in another thread, regarding RVU:

https://forums.studentdoctor.net/attachments/rvu-2017-institutional-snapshot-pdf.235127/

Never again do I want to hear anyone say that COMLEX percentiles are similar to USMLE percentiles...

66th percentile on COMLEX level 1.
Yet... 30th percentile on USMLE step 1.

Ouch. They also do slightly better than KCU on level 1.

Actually, I've seen the opposite as well.

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[sab3156]

Actually, I've seen the opposite as well.

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Damn, lol. That's weird. Did the school just not teach OMM or something?

EDIT: and do you actually mean the class averages were opposite (class averaged higher on Step 1 compared to Level 1), or individual? If it's the latter, then I do not find that surprising.

 

[heychloe]

Actually, I've seen the opposite as well.
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I think on an individual level, when a student only focuses on USMLE with plans to just pass Comlex, you could have the reverse. In order to even consider such strategy, you'd have to be a mid-upper tier student w/ only ACGME residencies in mind, who doesn't worry about failing Comlex even if they do badly on OPP. (my story)

But most students either don't have that luxury or aiming for AOA in a competitive specialty.

Here's a data from MSU. Their comlex for class of 2019 looks surprisingly bad(Their comlex average dropped despite the increase in national average), but I wonder if they shifted gears to Step. I've heard from students there that at some point the school emphasized Step before they withdrew from the stance. I heard they gave the class of 2019 more dedicated time to study as well
(Someone from MSU pls confirm my statement)
http://www.com.msu.edu/Students/Boards_and_Prep/Board Prep Documents/Should-Osteopathic-Medical-Students-Take-the-USMLE-Step-1.pdf

 

[Scrubs101]

I think on an individual level, when a student only focuses on USMLE with plans to just pass Comlex, you could have the reverse. In order to even consider such strategy, you'd have to be a mid-upper tier student w/ only ACGME residencies in mind, who doesn't worry about failing Comlex even if they do badly on OPP. (my story)

But most students either don't have that luxury or aiming for AOA in a competitive specialty.

Here's a data from MSU. Their comlex for class of 2019 looks surprisingly bad(Their comlex average dropped despite the increase in national average), but I wonder if they shifted gears to Step. I've heard from students there that at some point the school emphasized Step before they withdrew from the stance. I heard they gave the class of 2019 more dedicated time to study as well
(Someone from MSU pls confirm my statement)
http://www.com.msu.edu/Students/Boards_and_Prep/Board Prep Documents/Should-Osteopathic-Medical-Students-Take-the-USMLE-Step-1.pdf

So that document actually only includes people who took both. Class of 2019 actually had comlex average 560+, which is very interesting. Those that took both dragged down the comlex average i guess?

Outcomes - College of Osteopathic Medicine - Michigan State University

 

[heychloe]

So that document actually only includes people who took both. Class of 2019 actually had comlex average 560+, which is very interesting. Those that took both dragged down the comlex average i guess?

Outcomes - College of Osteopathic Medicine - Michigan State University

That makes sense! Thank you for the data. I love numbers lol

Now this makes me wonder if this is part of why some DO schools discourage taking the Step as it would make their complex score look worse

 

[Dr.Jekyll75]

I think on an individual level, when a student only focuses on USMLE with plans to just pass Comlex, you could have the reverse. In order to even consider such strategy, you'd have to be a mid-upper tier student w/ only ACGME residencies in mind, who doesn't worry about failing Comlex even if they do badly on OPP. (my story)

But most students either don't have that luxury or aiming for AOA in a competitive specialty.

Here's a data from MSU. Their comlex for class of 2019 looks surprisingly bad(Their comlex average dropped despite the increase in national average), but I wonder if they shifted gears to Step. I've heard from students there that at some point the school emphasized Step before they withdrew from the stance. I heard they gave the class of 2019 more dedicated time to study as well
(Someone from MSU pls confirm my statement)
http://www.com.msu.edu/Students/Boards_and_Prep/Board Prep Documents/Should-Osteopathic-Medical-Students-Take-the-USMLE-Step-1.pdf

Alright boys and girls settle down for a story of comlex - comsae-step from someone in the 2019 class at MSU. First of all we started off with 325 students + additional students from years prior, i know at my site we had 8 , so god nows how many from the other sites. so lets call 8 at each site. thats close to 349 if im doing my math right. out of these people we ended up at 306 by then end of the spring semester. Then we had our comsae. Now the the first round of comsae took out quite a few people(112 people to be exact) . Then those people that did not pass our threshold (450 points) had to retake another comsae and if they didnt pass that they were told to take a year off basically or they would make a deal with the admin that if they failed, they would get kicked out or w.e other deal there was on the table. So that brings us to 272. out of the original 349 that we started with . Now i had stat breakdowns of how many of those 272 actually passed boards(turns out 6.69 fail if you do the number reported with my # of students given) but i some how deleted it . so when you cut off a good 22ish% of the class, ya your general comlex scores will improve... We were told at least at my site DO NOT ATTEMPT THE USMLE, you dont need it if you stay instate. Now i had a conversation with a student counselor and you have a 1/3 chance to do bad, 1/3 to do average, 1/3 to do good, so the odds are against you. Other students from what im told where told flat out dont take it you will fail. We werent really promoted as a whole, i think it was a case by case bases. Out of those 166 that did take, 20ish are canadian students that must take it because they are trying to match back home. I ended up taking it. 22x, (disappointed because my nbmes + uwsa were higher so i chocked) and a 65x on the comlex. im in the 3rd quart, so you can tell i didnt care about school grades too much. As for the question about getting an extra month to study, we techniqually did but we had acls/bcls that month, comsaes to jump through, pre-clerkship preceptorships. Personally, i took my test early and took that extra month as a vacation. I dont agree with everything the college does, i feel that they hinder some of their students but as someone pointed out earlier , the good students always find a way, its that middle third that suffers, and that last third that are not strong students to start with.... End rant
-Edit: i forgot to add this in there. I feel like all do schools have 1 similar issue, some of their applicants have bad habits that are never fixed , like craming . The people i knew that failed all fell into that category

 

[heychloe]

so when you cut off a good 22ish% of the class, ya your general comlex scores will improve...

Dude, what are you doing to me? I'm actually starting to feel good about my school! This ain't me!

Jokes aside, thank you for sharing the story behind the numbers.

 

[Dr.Jekyll75]

Dude, what are you doing to me? I'm actually starting to feel good about my school! This ain't me!

Jokes aside, thank you for sharing the story behind the numbers.

In addition, we have to remember that some people don’t take it as seriously as they should. Michigan State gave us a lot of freedom when it comes to how we study . Yes there is mandatory class for few hours a week. We literally never have to go to lecture. A lot of people you only saw rarely at school. So it’s a double edge sword when the numbers pan out. I am sure we all have classmates that should not be in med school for Academic reasons. I remember a large majority of my class was very upset that they imposed the new policy on us about passing a practice comsae. But, I didn’t think it was necessarily a bad thing. I don’t know how many other schools have policies like this


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[DrStephenStrange]

In addition, we have to remember that some people don’t take it as seriously as they should. Michigan State gave us a lot of freedom when it comes to how we study . Yes there is mandatory class for few hours a week. We literally never have to go to lecture. A lot of people you only saw rarely at school. So it’s a double edge sword when the numbers pan out. I am sure we all have classmates that should not be in med school for Academic reasons. I remember a large majority of my class was very upset that they imposed the new policy on us about passing a practice comsae. But, I didn’t think it was necessarily a bad thing. I don’t know how many other schools have policies like this


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The majority of DO schools I know makes you take COMSAE before COMLEX with a minimum required target score.

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[Dr.Jekyll75]

Dude, what are you doing to me? I'm actually starting to feel good about my school! This ain't me!

Jokes aside, thank you for sharing the story behind the numbers.

lol no problem. theres a reason why stats arent published. it would sink alot of

The majority of DO schools I know makes you take COMSAE before COMLEX with a minimum required target score.

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Our class the first one where it was mandatory for us to pass the 450 cut off in order to take boards. the class before us were given the comsae as a "see where you are at" diagnostic test. From my understanding, other schools have similar cut offs, some higher as well. In addition to having to do it before step 2 as well

 

[DrStephenStrange]

lol no problem. theres a reason why stats arent published. it would sink alot of

Our class the first one where it was mandatory for us to pass the 450 cut off in order to take boards. the class before us were given the comsae as a "see where you are at" diagnostic test. From my understanding, other schools have similar cut offs, some higher as well. In addition to having to do it before step 2 as well

From this thread

https://forums.studentdoctor.net/index.php?posts/19980369

UNECOM 500 COMSAE D
TUNCOM 500 COMSAE D
VCOM 490 COMSAE D
TOUROCOM 475 COMSAE D
CCOM 475 COMSAE D
ROWANSOM 450
KCOM 450 COMSAE C
WCUCOM 450
LECOM 450 COMSAE D
CUSOM 450 COMSAE D
AZCOM 450 COMSAE D
DMUCOM 450 COMSAE D
ATSU SOMA 450 COMSAE D
ACOM 450 COMSAE D
OSUCOM 450, mandatory 4 week Kaplan course if you don’t get that, then retest.
PNWU-COM 440 COMSAE
LMUDCOM 400 COMSAE D
RVUCOM Not required
MSUCOM 450 COMSAE E
ACOM 480 COMSAE E

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[JDWannabe]

Can’t they scramble into unfilled Family Med positions?

Just set your sights lower DO students, there are plenty of spaces in community IM and FM programs.

You don't sound like the compassionate physician you should be modeling yourself into becoming.