,

[ortnakas]

So the AOA match went from 76% (with 600 more slots) to 66% with less slots this year. While the ACGME match despite gaining slots stayed at the same 81%. I don't think we will have a 99% placement this year. Interesting how it had dropped already from 2016 to 2017 but the percent was so small no one cared (0.26). I suspect a much larger drop this year. TY for the link.

I know several people who applied to 1-2 programs in the AOA and didn't get them, but then matched ACGME (usually because with programs switching over to ACGME they had a longer interview offer/rank list on the ACGME side). I don't know if that accounts for the whole AOA match percentage drop, but it's at least part of it, if that's reassuring at all.

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[BorntobeDO?]

I know several people who applied to 1-2 programs in the AOA and didn't get them, but then matched ACGME (usually because with programs switching over to ACGME they had a longer interview offer/rank list on the ACGME side). I don't know if that accounts for the whole AOA match percentage drop, but it's at least part of it, if that's reassuring at all.

I appreciate the thought. I have heard of a couple of these as well. I feel great for these people, and I am very happy for them. And your right, at the core of the issue is that I (or anyone else) just don't want to be in the 20%. Everyone thinks it can't happen to them, but I have found med school incredibly capable of making things happen that never happened before, in rather unpleasant ways. The only thing that will really reassure me is when my schools match list comes out and I see the amount that placed.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Supposedly we actually had a true 100% match rate this year.

 

[hallowmann]

The ACGME match rate was the same this year as it was last year, which was a multi-year high mark.

How many of the people counted in the unmatched Talley were pulled from the ACGME match due to matching AOA. I honestly don’t know, but I bet it’s not 0%

What was the USMD match rate this year BTW, it’s usually in the lower 90’s if I recall correctly.

The doom and gloom is a bit melodramatic people; nothing seems to have changed this year; it certainly hasn’t gotten worse.

The rate being stagnant isn't that scary to me. Its unfortunate, but last year was actually an all-time high of DO match rate in the NRMP match, I believe ever, and it had jumped about 50% higher than anticipated given the relatively linear increase that DO match rates have seen for the last 5-6 years. Maybe this is correcting the high jump last year, maybe its a sign of things leveling off. Its hard to say from two points.

You aren't including the AOA residencies that haven't been ACGME accredited yet in that 80%. So somewhere in that remaining 20% will be a mix of DOs and MDs matching at these places. My guess is that those places will be >50% or more DO.

Yeah, I'd imagine true DO match rates to land somewhere in the 85-90% range. Scrambling/SOAPing might get harder, but only time will tell.

Well said @libertyyne -- I'd have to agree with @Goro in that a 'same as last year' match percentage in light of the much larger number of DO applicants to the ACGME match is an encouraging thing. But I'd also have to agree also that an overall match rate of ~80% (I know that's not what the numbers represent) is not actually acceptable for DO grads. The 20% in the ACGME match excludes those who matched AOA, so it was probably a combination of the weakest DO applicants, the misguided who over-estimated their chances, and the simply unlucky.

Do we have 'total totals' yet? The number of DO grads who matched (AOA+ACGME) divided by the total number of DO grads? That's what we need to look at.

No totals yet. When the numbers come out, I'll post another thread like I did for the last two years. (2016, 2017).

I'll throw some numbers out that I've been looking at

2018
AOA offered 2473 positions (including TRI, Option 1-3 residencies)
Of those 1680 filled.
From NMS the total number of US osteo seniors were 6644,
total number of US osteo seniors plus previous grads = 7123
So ACGME+AOA+military matched = 1680+3771+274 = 5725/7123= 80.4% of all DOs matched,
compared to all allos seeking residencies (grads and seniors)
seniors: 18818 senior match rate 94.3%
prev grads: 1511
18402/20329 = 90.5% of all US MDs matched

I'll compare 2017 as well
6727 total DOs
2933 matched ACGME
256 matched military
2214 matched into some type of AOA

5403/6727 = 80.3% total DO percent matched
US MD total seeking 20011
Of those US seniors = 17480, senior match rate :94.3%
US prev grads seeking positions: 1472
US MD total match 18157
20011/18157 = 90.3% total percent matched

(I can't calculate the US DO senior match rate because both NRMP and NMS do not separate previous grads vs. seniors from the 2018 data while NRMP does for MDs.)

I'm sure my math has some holes in it as im just learning about the match so feel free to correct and if im just flat out incorrect ill just delete this lol and also NRMP does not show military data like the NMS does so US MD % might be higher

Oh how I love the numbers. Here are my threads with a little more details:

DO Match Rate 2017
DO Match Rate 2016

you only include seniors in the %match.

Yeah, that's because for DOs both the NRMP and NMS match reports combine both DO seniors and DO grads. In fact the only group that is separated into seniors and grads is US MDs.

I dont know what NMS does, NRMP specifically deliniates US seniors as a category and the match rates thrown around are for us seniors not everyone in the pool.

No. Incorrect. See above.

 

[W19]

The rate being stagnant isn't that scary to me. Its unfortunate, but last year was actually an all-time high of DO match rate in the NRMP match, I believe ever, and it had jumped about 50% higher than anticipated given the relatively linear increase that DO match rates have seen for the last 5-6 years. Maybe this is correcting the high jump last year, maybe its a sign of things leveling off. Its hard to say from two points.



Yeah, I'd imagine true DO match rates to land somewhere in the 85-90% range. Scrambling/SOAPing might get harder, but only time will tell.



No totals yet. When the numbers come out, I'll post another thread like I did for the last two years. (2016, 2017).



Oh how I love the numbers. Here are my threads with a little more details:

DO Match Rate 2017
DO Match Rate 2016



Yeah, that's because for DOs both the NRMP and NMS match reports combine both DO seniors and DO grads. In fact the only group that is separated into seniors and grads is US MDs.



No. Incorrect. See above.

I was waiting for your perspective; if the number crunching are not coming from you or @Ibn Alnafis MD, I ain't gonna believe it.

 

[zero0]

The rate being stagnant isn't that scary to me. Its unfortunate, but last year was actually an all-time high of DO match rate in the NRMP match, I believe ever, and it had jumped about 50% higher than anticipated given the relatively linear increase that DO match rates have seen for the last 5-6 years. Maybe this is correcting the high jump last year, maybe its a sign of things leveling off. Its hard to say from two points.



Yeah, I'd imagine true DO match rates to land somewhere in the 85-90% range. Scrambling/SOAPing might get harder, but only time will tell.



No totals yet. When the numbers come out, I'll post another thread like I did for the last two years. (2016, 2017).



Oh how I love the numbers. Here are my threads with a little more details:

DO Match Rate 2017
DO Match Rate 2016



Yeah, that's because for DOs both the NRMP and NMS match reports combine both DO seniors and DO grads. In fact the only group that is separated into seniors and grads is US MDs.



No. Incorrect. See above.

Even with the adjusted numbers, that's still 1 out of 10 DOs not matching which... Yeah, honestly feels about right. I wouldn't trust the bottom 10% of my class with a cat, and I hate cats--abominable creatures, plus I'm allergic. These are the low COMLEX only people with class failures who should have been let go before 3rd year.

Anyway, I point the finger at lax DO admissions, but then again that's part of the charm of DO schools. Much like the Caribbean, they'll give pretty much anyone a chance and it's up to them to make the best of it. I'd also like to give a shout out to terrible advising at some DO schools, the likes of which would make even pre-med advisers cringe. No offense, but some of them seem completely out of touch with the world after 2020.

 

[IslandStyle808]

Even with the adjusted numbers, that's still 1 out of 10 DOs not matching which... Yeah, honestly feels about right. I wouldn't trust the bottom 10% of my class with a cat, and I hate cats--abominable creatures, plus I'm allergic. These are the low COMLEX only people with class failures who should have been let go before 3rd year.

Anyway, I point the finger at lax DO admissions, but then again that's part of the charm of DO schools. Much like the Caribbean, they'll give pretty much anyone a chance and it's up to them to make the best of it. I'd also like to give a shout out to terrible advising at some DO schools, the likes of which would make even pre-med advisers cringe. No offense, but some of them seem completely out of touch with the world after 2020.

School will try their hardest to fill their seats (wouldn't put it past MD schools either), even if it means letting in a person with a 496...

 

[hallowmann]

Even with the adjusted numbers, that's still 1 out of 10 DOs not matching which... Yeah, honestly feels about right. I wouldn't trust the bottom 10% of my class with a cat, and I hate cats--abominable creatures, plus I'm allergic. These are the low COMLEX only people with class failures who should have been let go before 3rd year.

Anyway, I point the finger at lax DO admissions, but then again that's part of the charm of DO schools. Much like the Caribbean, they'll give pretty much anyone a chance and it's up to them to make the best of it. I'd also like to give a shout out to terrible advising at some DO schools, the likes of which would make even pre-med advisers cringe. No offense, but some of them seem completely out of touch with the world after 2020.

We should be clear that the match rate approaches 90%. The placement rate, at least for the last many years has been >99%. To compare, the match rates for US MD seniors is typically in the 93-95% range, with a similar 99%-ish placement rate. So yeah, like you said, 10-12% of DO seniors not matching and 5-7% of MD seniors not matching does sound about right.

That first part of the second paragraph is purely hyperbole. DO schools have standards - only about 40% of those who apply get in (like US MD schools), and given that the vast majority of students that get in finish, and the vast majority that finish match (let alone attain GME), I think its pretty clear that DO schools aren't "like the Caribbean" and don't "give pretty much anyone a chance".

As for DO school advising. Yeah that's the worst, and it has nothing to do with 2020, its just the way it is and was throughout med school for me.

 

[libertyyne]

School will try their hardest to fill their seats (wouldn't put it past MD schools either), even if it means letting in a person with a 496...

16% of DO classes are filled with 497 and below. I dont think any MD school is doing that.

 

[W19]

Even with the adjusted numbers, that's still 1 out of 10 DOs not matching which... Yeah, honestly feels about right. I wouldn't trust the bottom 10% of my class with a cat, and I hate cats--abominable creatures, plus I'm allergic. These are the low COMLEX only people with class failures who should have been let go before 3rd year.

Anyway, I point the finger at lax DO admissions, but then again that's part of the charm of DO schools. Much like the Caribbean, they'll give pretty much anyone a chance and it's up to them to make the best of it. I'd also like to give a shout out to terrible advising at some DO schools, the likes of which would make even pre-med advisers cringe. No offense, but some of them seem completely out of touch with the world after 2020.

But people trust NP who take online classes and complete 500 hrs preceptorship...

 

[IslandStyle808]

16% of DO classes are filled with 497 and below. I dont think any MD school is doing that.

The school in my home state has a post-bacc linkage program. If you pass this you get in directly. I knew several people below a 24 that the linkage program, passed and got in (with the MD average for my home school being around 31). Then you have your HBCs that are admitting people with average MCATs of 26 (even lower if you go back 5 years). There are schools that already do it.

However, not what I am alluding too. MD schools have enough quality candidates that they can pick and choose. If they didn't, they will 100% try to fill their class with people below 500. My home state actually gets money from the state for every it fills. So why wouldn't other state schools do the same thing? And also why loose out $40k per seat for private schools, by not filling it with people? I don't expect school not to fill seats because they don't get quality applicants.

 

[libertyyne]

The school in my home state has a post-bacc linkage program. If you pass this you get in directly. I knew several people below a 24 that the linkage program, passed and got in (with the MD average for my home school being around 31). Then you have your HBCs that are admitting people with average MCATs of 26 (even lower if you go back 5 years). There are schools that already do it.

However, not what I am alluding too. MD schools have enough quality candidates that they can pick and choose. If they didn't, they will 100% try to fill their class with people below 500. My home state actually gets money from the state for every it fills. So why wouldn't other state schools do the same thing? And also why loose out $40k per seat for private schools, by not filling it with people? I don't expect school not to fill seats because they don't get quality applicants.

MD a median of 510.4 and an SD of 6.6 means ~16% are below 504
vs a median of 502 with an sd of 5 means ~16% are below 497.

there are outliers like the PR schools and HBCUs but lets not say that it is the norm like it is on the DO side.

The bigger question is , does america not have the reserve of applicants to fill these seats with quality?

The other issue though is proportional expansion of DO schools, there is probably a point at which you can no longer attract quality candidates because the pool has been exhausted. I dont think DO schools operate like that. MDs have been conservative in their proportional seat increases. They could have gone nutz in the 80's , 90's and 00's if they truely had that in mind.

 

[DrfluffyMD]

MD a median of 510.4 and an SD of 6.6 means 16% are below 504
vs a median of 502 with an sd of 5 means 16% are below 497.

there are outliers like the PR schools and HBCUs but lets not say that it is the norm like it is on the DO side.

The bigger question is , does america not have the reserve of applicants to fill these seats with quality?

The other issue though is proportional expansion of DO schools, there is probably a point at which you can no longer attract quality candidates because the pool has been exhausted. I dont think DO schools operate like that. MDs have been conservative in their proportional seat increases. They could have gone nutz in the 80's , 90's and 00's if they truely had that in mind.

The reality is that DO school have expanded so much, that I am pretty sure by now the people who would have gone to the premier caribean school (SGU) are all able to go to a DO school if they so wish.

 

[IslandStyle808]

MD a median of 510.4 and an SD of 6.6 means ~16% are below 504
vs a median of 502 with an sd of 5 means ~16% are below 497.

there are outliers like the PR schools and HBCUs but lets not say that it is the norm like it is on the DO side.

The bigger question is , does america not have the reserve of applicants to fill these seats with quality?

The other issue though is proportional expansion of DO schools, there is probably a point at which you can no longer attract quality candidates because the pool has been exhausted. I dont think DO schools operate like that. MDs have been conservative in their proportional seat increases. They could have gone nutz in the 80's , 90's and 00's if they truely had that in mind.

Its an unfortunate consequence of DO schools trying to keep up with MD expansions. Most schools are private and so have large class sizes to make it feasible to run. DOs don't want to be an extinct species and DO students are being dragged down as a result. Not denying this point at all.

Again, not what I am trying to get at (I'm not referring to practical, I'm referring to theoretical). If less people want to go MD, because their are better tech jobs, then quality of candidates will go down. However, they will still fill. The point I'm getting at.

MD schools have done an excellent job of not over expanding. Heck my state MD school took 30 years before it expanded out and its just an increase from 62 to 75 seats!!! However, the growth of schools need to stop all together (both MD and DO). Otherwise, competition will get ridiculous. I think both expansions need to stop, if you are asking where I stand on this topic.

 

[IslandStyle808]

The reality is that DO school have expanded so much, that I am pretty sure by now the people who would have gone to the premier caribean school (SGU) are all able to go to a DO school if they so wish.

Correct, SGUs MCAT average has gone way down. This is because more people are going DO than carrib.

 

[Goro]

16% of DO classes are filled with 497 and below. I dont think any MD school is doing that.

Stop with the addiction to the MCAT score. Our Master students are frequently at 500 or below. Yet the ones we accept from a master's program have aced the master's program, and they taste medical school as well. Therefore we don't care about the MCAT performance in this regard, even if it means our overall School MCAT scores go down. We know these kids can handle medical school

 

[deleted600623]

Oh gtfohhhh..

Jesus christ.

Bunch of fear mongerers on SDN.

What we probably had are some idiotic DO students who want to delve from the PC track and shot their shot without knowing wtf they were getting themselves into.

They wanna do rads... anesthesia... derm... with only COMLEX scores... class failures... and who knows what else.

A lot of people on here LIE.

Guess what?

You will most likely do IM, FM, or Peds if you are a DO.

Boo-hoo.

Y'all knew what was up when you took the DO acceptance.

Deal with it or drop out.

I like this.

 

[hallowmann]

MD a median of 510.4 and an SD of 6.6 means ~16% are below 504
vs a median of 502 with an sd of 5 means ~16% are below 497.

there are outliers like the PR schools and HBCUs but lets not say that it is the norm like it is on the DO side.

The bigger question is , does america not have the reserve of applicants to fill these seats with quality?

The other issue though is proportional expansion of DO schools, there is probably a point at which you can no longer attract quality candidates because the pool has been exhausted. I dont think DO schools operate like that. MDs have been conservative in their proportional seat increases. They could have gone nutz in the 80's , 90's and 00's if they truely had that in mind.

The reality is that DO school have expanded so much, that I am pretty sure by now the people who would have gone to the premier caribean school (SGU) are all able to go to a DO school if they so wish.

Practically the equivalent number of MD seats and DO seats have opened in the last 10-15 yrs. DO schools didn't really see much expansions in the 80's or 90's and a relatively modest amount (by today's standards) in the 00's. The applicants that would previously be top DO students are now at MD schools, and the applicants that would previously be top Carib students are at DO schools. That was at least one of the points of expansion.

Not just that, but the economy has been improving, tech is booming, and I suspect the boom in med school applications will actually fall. Apps annually to MD school from 2008-2010 were pretty stable around 42000, then with people wanting stability, completing postbacs or returning, applicant numbers increased precipitously to an all-time high of 53000 in 2016-2017, then it dropped for the first time in almost a decade down to 51,700. We'll see what happens in coming years, but I suspect we'll see a further drop, unless there's another recession.

My point is, both MD and DO schools are going to be digging lower than their current standards due to too much expansion and a reduction in interest for medicine. Like IslandStyle said, no school will have a problem dipping lower to fill their seats. Its the name of the game.

For comparison, I decided to include DO applicant rough numbers: 2008-2010 saw an increase from ~11,000 to ~13,000 (not huge), but after that numbers jumped, much like they did in the MD world to a bit shy of 21,000 in 2016, and increased a tiny bit more in 2017, but the rate of increased has slowed a good deal.

 

[GypsyHummus]

Eh, I’m not so sure that you guys are right about Mcat scores.

A lot of the new schools that opened up have average scores of 502 or higher. Everyone thought it would be the end of the world once Burrell opened up, but their class averages have been around the 3.5 and 501 mark since opening.

I think those who get in with below a 498 or whatever the equivalent of a 24 is now had a SMP or URM story. I know several people from my undergrad who took the MCAT and got a 500-505 and haven’t gotten accepted.

Heck, look at the ICOM forum. They are rejecting people in the 510s. I know of one person who got in with a 498 at ICOM, and that was because he is from the area.

 

[libertyyne]

Its an unfortunate consequence of DO schools trying to keep up with MD expansions. Most schools are private and so have large class sizes to make it feasible to run. DOs don't want to be an extinct species and DO students are being dragged down as a result. Not denying this point at all.

Again, not what I am trying to get at (I'm not referring to practical, I'm referring to theoretical). If less people want to go MD, because their are better tech jobs, then quality of candidates will go down. However, they will still fill. The point I'm getting at.

MD schools have done an excellent job of not over expanding. Heck my state MD school took 30 years before it expanded out and its just an increase from 62 to 75 seats!!! However, the growth of schools need to stop all together (both MD and DO). Otherwise, competition will get ridiculous. I think both expansions need to stop, if you are asking where I stand on this topic.

You are joking right?

Thats almost a 4X before AAMC started ramping up class sizes.
1682 DO first years in 1982
8000 DO first years in 2018
4.7 X more first years

16567 MD 1st years in 1982
21338 MD 1st years in 2018
1.2 X more 1st years

At this pace DO schools will overtake MD schools in the next decade and probably the population of earth by 2100

 

[libertyyne]

Stop with the addiction to the MCAT score. Our Master students are frequently at 500 or below. Yet the ones we accept from a master's program have aced the master's program, and they taste medical school as well. Therefore we don't care about the MCAT performance in this regard, even if it means our overall School MCAT scores go down. We know these kids can handle medical school

we both know that not every sub 500 is through a linkage program, not even a majority.

 

[bankaix808]

The school in my home state has a post-bacc linkage program. If you pass this you get in directly. I knew several people below a 24 that the linkage program, passed and got in (with the MD average for my home school being around 31). Then you have your HBCs that are admitting people with average MCATs of 26 (even lower if you go back 5 years). There are schools that already do it.

To be fair, the program also accepted applicants with MCATs of 31+. It is extremely tough, with an average pass rate of 67%, with a curriculum consisting of the first two-years of med school compacted into one year. Applicants have to earn it, and it is not an easy path to take.

 

[libertyyne]

Eh, I’m not so sure that you guys are right about Mcat scores.

A lot of the new schools that opened up have average scores of 502 or higher. Everyone thought it would be the end of the world once Burrell opened up, but their class averages have been around the 3.5 and 501 mark since opening.

I think those who get in with below a 498 or whatever the equivalent of a 24 is now had a SMP or URM story. I know several people from my undergrad who took the MCAT and got a 500-505 and haven’t gotten accepted.

Heck, look at the ICOM forum. They are rejecting people in the 510s. I know of one person who got in with a 498 at ICOM, and that was because he is from the area.

This is the most recent report i can find that displays matriculants seperately.

~40% of the class is sub 500

 

[hallowmann]

You are joking right?

View attachment 230622

Thats almost a 4X before AAMC started ramping up class sizes.
1682 DO first years in 1982
8000 DO first years in 2018
4.7 X more first years

16567 MD 1st years in 1982
21338 MD 1st years in 2018
1.2 X more 1st years

At this pace DO schools will overtake MD schools in the next decade and probably the population of earth by 2100

Hmm, let's see if I can cherry pick numbers and present them in a similar way to prove my point that the actual seat expansion has been roughly equivalent:

3079 DO first years in 2002-2003
8088 DO first years in 2017-2018
5009 more 1st years

16488 MD 1st years in 2002-2003
21338 MD 1st years in 2018
4850 more 1st years

Sorry man, you're right, DOs have added a whopping 159 more seats compared to MDs in the last 15 yrs. How could they? If only they had added 4850 seats like the MD schools, they'd have some decency and respect.

Actually at this pace (if both expansion continues to occur as it has over the last 15 years), DO schools will overtake MD schools in 3268 AD. We'll actually be flying through space doing OMM on aliens.

Sources:
https://www.aacom.org/docs/default-source/data-and-trends/1976-18-TtlEby-RE.xlsx?sfvrsn=41ef4297_46
https://www.aamc.org/download/153708/data/
https://www.aamc.org/download/321462/data/factstablea4.pdf

 

[zero0]

We should be clear that the match rate approaches 90%. The placement rate, at least for the last many years has been >99%. To compare, the match rates for US MD seniors is typically in the 93-95% range, with a similar 99%-ish placement rate. So yeah, like you said, 10-12% of DO seniors not matching and 5-7% of MD seniors not matching does sound about right.

That first part of the second paragraph is purely hyperbole. DO schools have standards - only about 40% of those who apply get in (like US MD schools), and given that the vast majority of students that get in finish, and the vast majority that finish match (let alone attain GME), I think its pretty clear that DO schools aren't "like the Caribbean" and don't "give pretty much anyone a chance".

As for DO school advising. Yeah that's the worst, and it has nothing to do with 2020, its just the way it is and was throughout med school for me.

Yeah the 2nd part was mostly frustration on my end. DOs haven't stooped quite that low yet. Most of the schools are doing quite well and putting out great physicians in fact.

Unfortunately, I'm not exactly reassured by placement rates since you gotta figure most of those are going to be dead end prelims, which the AOA counts as a "match" last I checked. Meanwhile, I don't know if MDs count prelims but I'd guess no because they don't need to fudge numbers to look good and generally have more self-respect.

 

[libertyyne]

Hmm, let's see if I can cherry pick numbers and present them in a similar way to prove my point that the actual seat expansion has been roughly equivalent:

3079 DO first years in 2002-2003
8088 DO first years in 2017-2018
5009 more 1st years

16488 MD 1st years in 2002-2003
21338 MD 1st years in 2018
4850 more 1st years

Sorry man, you're right, DOs have added a whopping 159 more seats compared to MDs in the last 15 yrs. How could they? If only they had added 4850 seats like the MD schools, they'd have some decency and respect.

Sources:
https://www.aacom.org/docs/default-source/data-and-trends/1976-18-TtlEby-RE.xlsx?sfvrsn=41ef4297_46
https://www.aamc.org/download/153708/data/
https://www.aamc.org/download/321462/data/factstablea4.pdf

Look at the rates of expansion. Do you not see the issue. 5000 murders per year in Billings Montana is the same thing as 5000 murders per year in NYC.

and me going back to the oldest date available for both is totally cherry picking.

 

[JamesPotterMS-3]

Surprised no one has even mentioned that there are a handful of DO school that don't even require the MCAT for admissions anymore. I know LECOM has taken students who haven't taken the MCAT also NYIT-Arkansas. There are probably others too but these are the two programs I know of personally that use other factors to replace the MCAT.

 

[IslandStyle808]

To be fair, the program also accepted applicants with MCATs of 31+. It is extremely tough, with an average pass rate of 67%, with a curriculum consisting of the first two-years of med school compacted into one year. Applicants have to earn it, and it is not an easy path to take.

I also have a friend who got in the program with a 30. Not doubting its hard, but they still accept applicants with low scores at times (and has shown low scores mean squat). My friends all thought M1 and M2 were easier than imi.

 

[JamesPotterMS-3]

Sorry man, you're right, DOs have added a whopping 159 more seats compared to MDs in the last 15 yrs. How could they? If only they had added 4850 seats like the MD schools, they'd have some decency and respect.

I don't have time to write a detailed response but I'll give just two pertinent examples:
- FIU and Western Michigan are two new MD schools that have opened within the last 10 years. Western Michigan hasn't even graduated a class yet but have already opened up close to 80 residency slots. FIU just signed a contract with Broward Health to double the hospital's current GME slots.

Compare these two small examples with MUCOM, ACOM, LUCOM, etc. that haven't opened up a single new residency program. Heck, Touro-CA has existed for a very long time but hasn't opened up a single program in nor-cal, not even in family medicine.

 

[IslandStyle808]

You are joking right?

View attachment 230622

Thats almost a 4X before AAMC started ramping up class sizes.
1682 DO first years in 1982
8000 DO first years in 2018
4.7 X more first years

16567 MD 1st years in 1982
21338 MD 1st years in 2018
1.2 X more 1st years

At this pace DO schools will overtake MD schools in the next decade and probably the population of earth by 2100

Uh no, you are misinterpreting my post. You are using the amount of numbers of people and not the amount of schools. MD schools are far more feasible with smaller class sizes than DO schools, since a lot of them are public schools and overall (even private schools) its easier for them to get funds in general. DO schools have larger class sizes because they don't have the same level of financial backing (the bulk majority of funds come from tuition).

I am not on some holy mission to support DO school expansions. I'm explaining why the numbers are ludicrously higher. I don't support any of these expansions, even if MD schools are doing them right. Don't care for more competition, this pathway is hard as it is.

 

[libertyyne]

I would not be surprised if coca keeps expanding until every remaining residency spots is covered. I would also not be surprised if the step 1 became a defacto requirement DO match rate would remain in the 80s and placement rates to be close to 80 as well. Is that an acceptable future ? I personally don't think so.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

I would not be surprised if coca keeps expanding until every remaining residency spots is covered. I would also not be surprised if the step 1 became a defacto requirement DO match rate would remain in the 80s and placement rates to go down .

COCA is garbage. The AOA is garbage. If everything goes even closely according to plan (ie the residency I want) the moment I graduate will be the last time I associate myself with the AOA.

 

[hallowmann]

Yeah the 2nd part was mostly frustration on my end. DOs haven't stooped quite that low yet. Most of the schools are doing quite well and putting out great physicians in fact.

Unfortunately, I'm not exactly reassured by placement rates since you gotta figure most of those are going to be dead end prelims, which the AOA counts as a "match" last I checked. Meanwhile, I don't know if MDs count prelims but I'd guess no because they don't need to fudge numbers to look good and generally have more self-respect.

Can't tell if joking or not. Yeah, most MD schools count pre-lims and TYs as matches. Honestly, a lot of MD schools also count SOAP placement as matches. Some don't, but it really is school specific, because all the data is internal.

Also although its not an ideal situation to be in, completing a pre-lim or TRI and taking Level 3, means you're eligible to become licensed and practice medicine in 30+ states. It may not be easy, and you won't get paid as much, but you'd still have a job by the end of it.

Look at the rates of expansion. Do you not see the issue. 5000 murders per year in Billings Montana is the same thing as 5000 murders per year in NYC.

None of what I said makes a judgement for or against the expansion and its potential detrimental effects. Personally, I think both expansions are stupid, but you can't just criticize DO schools for opening up thousands of spots, and say there's no blame for MD schools for doing the same.

As for the analogy, its not really equivalent, and doesn't really fit this discussion at all whatsoever, but I'll humor you. Its actually more like comparing 5000 murders in NYC to 5000 murders in Chicago, Houston or Philly. In which case, I'd say sure, maybe its a little different, but they're not that far off from each other.

Surprised no one has even mentioned that there are a handful of DO school that don't even require the MCAT for admissions anymore. I know LECOM has taken students who haven't taken the MCAT also NYIT-Arkansas. There are probably others too but these are the two programs I know of personally that use other factors to replace the MCAT.

For one thing, that isn't something that is new, and many combined BS/MD programs do the same. Also, I know of no one who actually matriculated to LECOM without an MCAT. Use of previous standardized test scores are just another metric they may (or may not) use to evaluate applicants (I wouldn't be surprised if a faculty or admin at LECOM just keeps that on there to compose correlation data or even get some publications off of it). I have no idea about NYIT-Arkansas, but I would suspect its the same.

I don't have time to write a detailed response but I'll give just two pertinent examples:
- FIU and Western Michigan are two new MD schools that have opened within the last 10 years. Western Michigan hasn't even graduated a class yet but have already opened up close to 80 residency slots. FIU just signed a contract with Broward Health to double the hospital's current GME slots.

Compare these two small examples with MUCOM, ACOM, LUCOM, etc. that haven't opened up a single new residency program. Heck, Touro-CA has existed for a very long time but hasn't opened up a single program in nor-cal, not even in family medicine.

You're bringing up a completely different topic now. Nice straw man, but neither I or IslandStyle made any claims about how "good" or "responsible" the school expansions were (if anything we've said the opposite). By the way, has CNSU opened up any residencies? I'm genuinely curious. I don't know.

Also, I'm pretty sure that Toura-CA has actually opened up residencies in the past. It was easier when the AOA would publish this info to the public, but pre-merger agreement, they used to put out a list annually of newly accredited AOA programs. I'm almost certain I saw Touro-CA as one of the sponsors for programs on those lists back when I first started med school, but I can't really remember what fields they were in.


Honestly though guys, some of us have to work tomorrow. I'll bow out and let the rest of you keep up this conversation for tonight.

 

[IslandStyle808]

Can't tell if joking or not. Yeah, most MD schools count pre-lims and TYs as matches. Honestly, a lot of MD schools also count SOAP placement as matches. Some don't, but it really is school specific, because all the data is internal.

Also although its not an ideal situation to be in, completing a pre-lim or TRI and taking Level 3, means you're eligible to become licensed and practice medicine in 30+ states. It may not be easy, and you won't get paid as much, but you'd still have a job by the end of it.



None of what I said makes a judgement for or against the expansion and its potential detrimental effects. Personally, I think both expansions are stupid, but you can't just criticize DO schools for opening up thousands of spots, and say there's no blame for MD schools for doing the same.

As for the analogy, its not really equivalent, and doesn't really fit this discussion at all whatsoever, but I'll humor you. Its actually more like comparing 5000 murders in NYC to 5000 murders in Chicago, Houston or Philly. In which case, I'd say sure, maybe its a little different, but they're not that far off from each other.



For one thing, that isn't something that is new, and many combined BS/MD programs do the same. Also, I know of no one who actually matriculated to LECOM without an MCAT. Use of previous standardized test scores are just another metric they may (or may not) use to evaluate applicants (I wouldn't be surprised if a faculty or admin at LECOM just keeps that on there to compose correlation data or even get some publications off of it). I have no idea about NYIT-Arkansas, but I would suspect its the same.



You're bringing up a completely different topic now. Nice straw man, but neither I or IslandStyle made any claims about how "good" or "responsible" the school expansions were (if anything we've said the opposite). By the way, has CNSU opened up any residencies? I'm genuinely curious. I don't know.

Also, I'm pretty sure that Toura-CA has actually opened up residencies in the past. It was easier when the AOA would publish this info to the public, but pre-merger agreement, they used to put out a list annually of newly accredited AOA programs. I'm almost certain I saw Touro-CA as one of the sponsors for programs on those lists back when I first started med school, but I can't really remember what fields they were in.


Honestly though guys, some of us have to work tomorrow. I'll bow out and let the rest of you keep up this conversation for tonight.

I should have looked at your post and seen the numbers, the amounts are pretty much the same. But its pretty much a game of expansion with the DOs trying to catch the MDs. And we are all caught in the middle...

 

[FourniersGreenGang]

Surprised no one has even mentioned that there are a handful of DO school that don't even require the MCAT for admissions anymore. I know LECOM has taken students who haven't taken the MCAT also NYIT-Arkansas. There are probably others too but these are the two programs I know of personally that use other factors to replace the MCAT.

I love that everyone thinks this is an exclusively DO thing. I personally know several people at MD schools right now who never took the MCAT. In fact one of them even screwed it up miserably, declined to score it, and never retook it. Any time there are back channels into schools you will find students who did not take the MCAT. MD or DO doesn't matter in this regard.

 

[68PGunner]

Just want to drop some news from my side before I slowly leave this site for good:

Match percentage for my school for this year is about 88-89% after match day. Placement rate will probably go close to 98-99% after scramble. 52% go into FM, IM, Peds, and Ob, with only about 20% in FM. The matches to IM are very solid, with the majority of them w/ attached in house fellowships. Everyone else goes into EM, Gas, PMR, Neuro, Optho, Psych, Ortho, or GS. Very happy w/ this year match. I think our upcoming 2019 and our own 2020 classes will do even better bc our 2019 and 2020 presimulated board score metrics are even higher.

 

[deleted407021]

Just want to drop some news from my side before I slowly leave this site for good:

Match percentage for my school for this year is about 88-89% after match day. Placement rate will probably go close to 98-99% after scramble. 52% go into FM, IM, Peds, and Ob, with only about 20% in FM. The matches to IM are very solid, with the majority of them w/ attached in house fellowships. Everyone else goes into EM, Gas, PMR, Neuro, Optho, Psych, Ortho, or GS. Very happy w/ this year match. I think our upcoming 2019 and our own 2020 classes will do even better bc our 2019 and 2020 presimulated board score metrics are even higher.

Some refreshing good news!

Optimistic about my class too. Apparently we scored the highest in our school's history on our practice board exam and we have the highest average incoming MCAT scores of any class, as well. Also a very diverse class with interests in a wide range of fields, so I'm hoping we have a good match day in a couple years.

 

[starri]

Actually at this pace (if both expansion continues to occur as it has over the last 15 years), DO schools will overtake MD schools in 3268 AD. We'll actually be flying through space doing OMM on aliens.

But we'll still be stuck with community-based Space Primary Care residencies.

 

[SLC]

I’ll tell you what’s wrong with primary care...it is a widely held opinion that primary care doctors are all folks who barely made it through med-school.

Those of us who do it know that’s patently false.

That and it’s the hardest job in medicine. It’s like herding cats some days trying to convince people to take care of themselves. And you get a lot of stupid stuff in the office (people with 2 days of URI that want a Z-pack is a big one).
You’re also the least respected doctor in the hospital. I’ve been told off by a Pedi-ER fellow for treating a buckle fracture appropriately because she felt that completing a peds residency and 6 months of ER fellowship meant that whatever she pulled out of her ass was better than what I’ve learned and done on the 3 orthopedics months I’ve been required to do so far. A quick lit search wasn’t enough to satisfy her because “maybe that’s the way Family Medicine doctors do it, but in peds we do it differently”. That stuff gets aggravating.

But I love what I do, because interspersed with all of that, I have some really great patients who I truly care for, and I know they value and respect me as their physician. I’ve recieved letters thanking me for helping with depression, diabetes, etc. I’ve taken on a poorly controlled psych patient that I admitted to the hospital in the middle of the night, he’d been fired from 3 or 4 other practices. He’s stable now and doing amazingly well. I had a prenatal patient who ended up having a pretty nasty shoulder dystocia, which I managed on my own, then resuscitated baby, and took care of Mom and baby in the hospital and again at clinic. I’ve helped guide patients into hospice and been there for their deaths (which was a privilege in its own right).

I’m the doctor who gets to do a little bit of everything. I’m the guy you come to first when you have a medical issue, and the vast majority of the time I can handle it; and when I can’t, I’ll send you to a person who’s known as an expert, even if it’s only with respect to a very narrow aspect of medicine.

I have the best job in the world

As an update, as I was driving in to work today I heard a segment on NPR about a proposed law in California. Legislators want to mandate that all pregnant women be screened for depression post-partum. They interviewed a number of OB’s, all of whom were strongly opposed to the law. Their reasoning:

1.) what do I do with a positive screen? I don’t know how to treat depression.

2.) it can take months to get a patient in with a psychiatrist.

This is something that Family Medicine is very well equipped to deal with. We’re the OB provider, the pediatrician, and the psychiatrist. I have no problem treating depression, at all.

 

[zero0]

Just want to drop some news from my side before I slowly leave this site for good:

Match percentage for my school for this year is about 88-89% after match day. Placement rate will probably go close to 98-99% after scramble. 52% go into FM, IM, Peds, and Ob, with only about 20% in FM. The matches to IM are very solid, with the majority of them w/ attached in house fellowships. Everyone else goes into EM, Gas, PMR, Neuro, Optho, Psych, Ortho, or GS. Very happy w/ this year match. I think our upcoming 2019 and our own 2020 classes will do even better bc our 2019 and 2020 presimulated board score metrics are even higher.

In all seriousness things are looking good here too. 97% match from our 1st class ever and word in the halls is our class (2020) is crushing by all metrics. Actually quite optimistic for myself.

 

[Goro]

COCA is garbage. The AOA is garbage. If everything goes even closely according to plan (ie the residency I want) the moment I graduate will be the last time I associate myself with the AOA.

instead of being bitter about the fix you're in, the solution is for you to be in the AOA and fix it from the inside it's not going to fix itself

 

[TheaterOfTheme]

instead of being bitter about the fix you're in, the solution is for you to be in the AOA and fix it from the inside it's not going to fix itself

The fix will be this:

In 2020, 15-20% DOs will not match. Now, judging off of the entitlement in my class, thats a lot of rich kids with parents capable of funding a nice lawsuit. I bet the fix will be sooner than we think, but at an expense greater than most on SDN are willing to admit. I called it here.

 

[Goro]

Just want to drop some news from my side before I slowly leave this site for good:

Match percentage for my school for this year is about 88-89% after match day. Placement rate will probably go close to 98-99% after scramble. 52% go into FM, IM, Peds, and Ob, with only about 20% in FM. The matches to IM are very solid, with the majority of them w/ attached in house fellowships. Everyone else goes into EM, Gas, PMR, Neuro, Optho, Psych, Ortho, or GS. Very happy w/ this year match. I think our upcoming 2019 and our own 2020 classes will do even better bc our 2019 and 2020 presimulated board score metrics are even higher.

What did you do to get smacked by the BanHammer?

 

[Osminog]

I think AOA programs will continue to have a de facto preference for DO graduates. I also think that more residency spots will open up to keep up with the growing matriculation rate; ACGME residency standards may be lowered in order to accredit rural community programs with limited resources and not-so-amazing training.

The system is probably more malleable than some of you Chicken Littles seem to think.

 

[fldoctorgirl]

I love that everyone thinks this is an exclusively DO thing. I personally know several people at MD schools right now who never took the MCAT. In fact one of them even screwed it up miserably, declined to score it, and never retook it. Any time there are back channels into schools you will find students who did not take the MCAT. MD or DO doesn't matter in this regard.

I've been lurking this thread for awhile but have never contributed. This point is absolute garbage (the one you are responding to, not yours). MD schools with combined linkages do the exact same thing. I have a friend who got into a 7 year BS/MD program. He only had to maintain a 3.5 GPA and score pretty low on the MCAT to gain admission. He never shadowed, never did any extracurriculars, nothing. He took the MCAT three times within 6 months to try to get the required score, barely studying. He bombed it the first two times and by some insane luck managed to score high enough on the third attempt. He matriculated to the school and is probably the cockiest person I know.

Claiming that DO schools are filled with sub-500 scorers is false and a straw man argument. Yes, I agree 100% that this is a big problem with the newer schools, but most of the established DO schools have had increasing MCAT averages every year, around 505-507. Regardless, most studies have shown that the MCAT is weakly to moderately correlated with performance in medical school once you pass a 27 (which is what, a 502-503 now?). So this is honestly such a useless argument used to try and put down DO students for being "lesser".

Everyone on here can agree that expansion is bad. DO schools in general have a lot of areas they should improve in. But overanalyzing and attacking MCAT scores is useless.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

instead of being bitter about the fix you're in, the solution is for you to be in the AOA and fix it from the inside it's not going to fix itself

Oh I’m not bitter. I’m grateful for my school for giving me the opportunity and I’m confident in my ability to get myself to where I want to be, but you couldn’t pay me enough to have to deal with the type of thinking that the heads of the AOA have. I’ve heard Q&As from AOA big wigs, they avoid all of the important questions and give pathetic company line answers. It’s really unimpressive. If I have to listen to one more speech about the importance of the “unique DO identity”..... They live in a fantasy.

What I will most likely do is write letters to government officials to petition them to stop licensing COCA as an official accrediting body. There are multiple ways to bring about change.

 

[IsWhat]

Oh I’m not bitter. I’m grateful for my school for giving me the opportunity and I’m confident in my ability to get myself to where I want to be, but you couldn’t pay me enough to have to deal with the type of thinking that the heads of the AOA have. I’ve heard Q&As from AOA big wigs, they avoid all of the important questions and give pathetic company line answers. It’s really unimpressive. If I have to listen to one more speech about the importance of the “unique DO identity”..... They live in a fantasy.

What I will most likely do is write letters to government officials to petition them to stop licensing COCA as an official accrediting body. There are multiple ways to bring about change.

I don’t think you are going to have to wait too long for change. I’ve been saying for a long time that when DO expansion starts to affect match rates in the MD world then the LCME is going to make a political push to obsorb COCA. At this rate we are probably a decade out from major changes. The two degree system has lasted so long in America, because DOs have always been just a small slice of the physician pie. We were basically harmless. But DO leadership has insisted on building an army and it will backfire.

 

[DNC127]

A more valuable petition would be one to send to the AOA/COCA to demand no new DO schools are created/expanded. Someone should get on that.

 

[FourniersGreenGang]

Oh I’m not bitter. I’m grateful for my school for giving me the opportunity and I’m confident in my ability to get myself to where I want to be, but you couldn’t pay me enough to have to deal with the type of thinking that the heads of the AOA have. I’ve heard Q&As from AOA big wigs, they avoid all of the important questions and give pathetic company line answers. It’s really unimpressive. If I have to listen to one more speech about the importance of the “unique DO identity”..... They live in a fantasy.

What I will most likely do is write letters to government officials to petition them to stop licensing COCA as an official accrediting body. There are multiple ways to bring about change.

I have to agree with you here too. I've tried to influence from the inside but those who will become the new AOA leadership have really drunk the kool-aid. It's so damn hard to make those people see that staying separate is NEVER equal. They seem to erroneously think we are superior to MDs for whatever reason. That said more DO students like the ones on this forum should be involved in getting rid of these future AOA leaders. Sticking our heads in the sand is not good for our future as we will just leave it in their incompetent hands.

 

[TheaterOfTheme]

A more valuable petition would be one to send to the AOA/COCA to demand no new DO schools are created/expanded. Someone should get on that.

Yeah we honestly should. Id be down to help make something like this at some point.