"You have financial cancer": Dave Ramsey weighs in on a pharmacist's 400k+ student loan bill

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Thanks for answering the question


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It also depends on your priority. If I had to pay student loans for 10 years, then my debt to income ratio would be higher and therefore, I wouldn't qualify to buy rental properties. I could easily sell one rental and the profit would be way more than any saving from PSLF.

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It also depends on your priority. If I had to pay student loans for 10 years, then my debt to income ratio would be higher and therefore, I wouldn't qualify to buy rental properties. I could easily sell one rental and the profit would be way more than any saving from PSLF.

Lol thanks for introducing unrelated scenarios into my ethics question.

But super optimistic hindsight 20/20 real estate pricing aside....assume excess money goes into an S&P 500 fund....

Is it still considered smart financial decision to outright screw over taxpayers using an available and legal program?


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Lol thanks for introducing unrelated scenarios into my ethics question.

But super optimistic hindsight 20/20 real estate pricing aside....assume excess money goes into an S&P 500 fund....

Is it still considered smart financial decision to outright screw over taxpayers using an available and legal program?


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What plan are you talking about? PSLF? How much saving are you talking about?
 
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What plan are you talking about? PSLF? How much saving are you talking about?

Okay different phrasing: if a moral hazard presents itself that is detrimental to taxpayers, is it still a smart financial decision?

Not just PSLF, I’m also thinking the NFLP (flood insurance) and mortgage interest deductions.


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Okay different phrasing: if a moral hazard presents itself that is detrimental to taxpayers, is it still a smart financial decision?

Not just PSLF, I’m also thinking the NFLP (flood insurance) and mortgage interest deductions.


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Depends on if BM will personally benefit from the moral hazard.
 
Depends on if BM will personally benefit from the moral hazard.

Lol but that’s the point of maximizing externalities... who cares if everyone else pays for behavior that I would have done anyway?

Might as well get in on it and benefit.


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Okay different phrasing: if a moral hazard presents itself that is detrimental to taxpayers, is it still a smart financial decision?

Not just PSLF, I’m also thinking the NFLP (flood insurance) and mortgage interest deductions.


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Obviously it is good for you but bad to tax payers and the general public. Student loan forgiveness would only encourage colleges and universities to increase tuition. It makes the problem worse.
 
Depends on if BM will personally benefit from the moral hazard.

Give me a break...fine by me if you want to use your retirement fund to pay for someone’s graduate school tuition.
 
What I don’t get is...why are you treating graduate student loan debt different from other forms of debt like medical, auto, mortgage? Poor people have more medical, auto debt..shouldn’t their debt be forgiven too?
 
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Moral hazard? By the time I am done with my income based plan, I will have paid the principle of my loan back (~160k). I will probably have somewhere in the ballpark of 150k at the time of forgiveness which will all be interest.. Should I feel morally wrong about avoiding a ton of interest to the govt? No thanks..

When I die and stand before my creator - I highly doubt that the question of my student loan interest will come up.. Pretty sure that will be water under the bridge.
 
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What I don’t get is...why are you treating graduate student loan debt different from other forms of debt like medical, auto, mortgage? Poor people have more medical, auto debt..shouldn’t their debt be forgiven too?

I vote in self-interest, primarily... but I tend to be pro-govt spending to fuel inflation, so I wouldn’t necessarily mind forgiveness of other debt.

Medical debt shouldn’t even exist, IMO.

And mortgage debt is an even exchange...I attain a $1M asset in exchange for $800k debt & $200k down, my balance sheet is neutral. Wouldn’t make sense to forgive that since there’s already a mechanism in place to forgive it (foreclosure with non-judicial single action clauses).


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Though I do not agree with everything Ramsey says I do take into consideration and agree with some of his major points. Main ones being credit card and student loan debt vs potential income. Also having a proper savings and aggressive investing (or at least to what the company will match).

Going 200k in debt for a job that pays half of this in a competitive job placement makes....no.....sense. thanks to some of Dave Ramsey quotes (not all) I am well on my way to staying debt free.
Congratulations on your achievement. I agree with your DR sentiment.
 
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I vote in self-interest, primarily... but I tend to be pro-govt spending to fuel inflation, so I wouldn’t necessarily mind forgiveness of other debt.

Medical debt shouldn’t even exist, IMO.

And mortgage debt is an even exchange...I attain a $1M asset in exchange for $800k debt & $200k down, my balance sheet is neutral. Wouldn’t make sense to forgive that since there’s already a mechanism in place to forgive it (foreclosure with non-judicial single action clauses).


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How about auto and credit card debt?
 
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How about auto and credit card debt?

Auto: no need for bailouts, sophisticated investors know what they’re getting into. They’ll just write the security down in value and deduct on taxes.

Credit card debt: mechanisms exist to wipe it out, or just stop paying it and tadaa your own bailout.


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Funny, I always have a policy of paying for lunch. You'd be surprised at how cheap a bribe that is to get someone's time or to motivate performance out of your inferiors, but scarily, how influential the idea of breaking bread is and how difficult psychologically it is to antagonize someone who fed you. It works with other primal functions as well.


This is SOOOO true. Even knowing this, I personally fall for and feel deeply indebted to anyone who buys me food. Being aware of this, I know I can also buy people food to manipulate them. It's like the placebo effect, even with knowing its a placebo, it still has an effect for many people.
 
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Auto: no need for bailouts, sophisticated investors know what they’re getting into. They’ll just write the security down in value and deduct on taxes.

Credit card debt: mechanisms exist to wipe it out, or just stop paying it and tadaa your own bailout.


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Auto debt: I am not talking about investors. I am talking about people buying the car.

How about child support/alimony debt? What about business debt? Can’t you really blame someone for trying to creating jobs? Should those debt also be forgiven?
 
Auto debt: I am not talking about investors. I am talking about people buying the car.

How about child support/alimony debt? What about business debt? Can’t you really blame someone for trying to creating jobs? Should those debt also be forgiven?


People buying the car have a bailout mechanism built in, walk away and it’s repo’d. Done. Investors of car debt with underwater loans on their collateralized investment will just have to eat it (cost of doing business).

Child support isn’t really debt (I suppose if you’re behind, it is). Since an actual person is owed I’m all about garnishing wages/tax refunds/putting liens in property to collect. Think of it as feeding your kid...you can’t NOT feed them.

Business debt is functionally automatically wiped upon dissolution once the secured debt is taken care of by selling collateral...unless you’re a dummy and personally guaranteed it. Again, same as the auto loan investor...**** happens, write it off and move on.


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People buying the car have a bailout mechanism built in, walk away and it’s repo’d. Done. Investors of car debt with underwater loans on their collateralized investment will just have to eat it (cost of doing business).

Child support isn’t really debt (I suppose if you’re behind, it is). Since an actual person is owed I’m all about garnishing wages/tax refunds/putting liens in property to collect. Think of it as feeding your kid...you can’t NOT feed them.

Business debt is functionally automatically wiped upon dissolution once the secured debt is taken care of by selling collateral...unless you’re a dummy and personally guaranteed it. Again, same as the auto loan investor...**** happens, write it off and move on.


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That is not happening with student loans. Loans are automatically forgiven unless if you can or cannot pay for them. Bernie wants to tax everyone’s 401 k to pay for student loan forgiveness. Declaring bankruptcy is not required. Credit is not destroyed for 7 years. The debt is then passed on to the tax payers.
 
That is not happening with student loans. Loans are automatically forgiven unless if you can or cannot pay for them. Bernie wants to tax everyone’s 401 k to pay for student loan forgiveness. Declaring bankruptcy is not required. Credit is not destroyed for 7 years. The debt is then passed on to the tax payers.

As long as my net position is better off...I’ll vote for it. Like, renter’s credits would be more fair to hand out but I’m not a renter so I’ll continue to vote for tax benefits for SFR owners.


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As long as my net position is better off...I’ll vote for it. Like, renter’s credits would be more fair to hand out but I’m not a renter so I’ll continue to vote for tax benefits for SFR owners.


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Student loan forgiveness is net negative for the vast majority of Americans. By the same logic, they will be against it.
 
Student loan forgiveness is net negative for the vast majority of Americans. By the same logic, they will be against it.

Yah but with proper PR you can get anyone to vote for something (or not vote on something).

I mean, do I even need to list examples?


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A plumber makes way more than 65k. I just got a new boiler and my plumber charged me $10,600. The parts cost $7,000 and the rest went into his pocket. Not bad for a couple days worth of work. Oh he just bought a new car too while I'm driving an 11 year old Honda. He went to vocational high school and graduated with no debt. He has so much work lined up that he has to refuse work cause he can only do so much at a time. I found him by word of mouth of Facebook, he doesn't even need to pay for marketing.

Oh shut up. I hate seeing posts like this. You CHOOSE to drive an 11 year old Honda, you don’t have to! You are just cheap when it comes to car. It has nothing to do with your financial situation.
 
Oh shut up. I hate seeing posts like this. You CHOOSE to drive an 11 year old Honda, you don’t have to! You are just cheap when it comes to car. It has nothing to do with your financial situation.

Happy New year to you too! I don't finance cars, I buy them with cash. I don't have the cash to buy a new car like my plumber does, do you?
 
Happy New year to you too! I don't finance cars, I buy them with cash. I don't have the cash to buy a new car like my plumber does, do you?

I am so confused by this post. Do you know how your plumber pays for his car? Maybe he finances?

This may surprise you but not everyone can buy a car for cash.
 
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I am so confused by this post. Do you know how your plumber pays for his car? Maybe he finances?

This may surprise you but not everyone can buy a car for cash.

He pays for everything with cash. He doesn't finance anything besides a mortgage.
 
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I like my 0% loans on cars...granted I buy Acura and drive it into the ground, mostly for the heated seats, though.

I’m a pharmacist, I deserve having a warm bum in the winter months. Some things I just don’t want to sacrifice.


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I like my 0% loans on cars...granted I buy Acura and drive it into the ground, mostly for the heated seats, though.

I’m a pharmacist, I deserve having a warm bum in the winter months. Some things I just don’t want to sacrifice.


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You can totally buy late-model Acura cars for cash on Dave Ramsey's plan. You don't have to sacrifice seat warmers.
 
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Find a 2009-11 Lincoln MKS with AWD. They can be had with low mileage for under $7,000 because they are grandpa cars nobody wants. The 3.5L V6 from that era it comes with are known to frequently go over 200k miles. Standard heated and cooled seats. Find one some grandma drove to church and back at an estate sale. Comes with a nice sound system, too. Just modernize it a tad with a new Android Auto/Carplay stereo system and you're good to go.
 
Happy New year to you too! I don't finance cars, I buy them with cash. I don't have the cash to buy a new car like my plumber does, do you?
If you can’t buy a car with cash as a pharmacist then that says more about you than the profession to be honest with you. We are not talking about Bentley or Ferrari here.
 
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If you can’t buy a car with cash as a pharmacist then that says more about you than the profession to be honest with you. We are not talking about Bentley or Ferrari here.

That is true. I'd rather put my money into investments or my house than a car.
 
That is true. I'd rather put my money into investments or my house than a car.

lmao... look at this guy. In the beginning you were complaining even a plumber with a high school education can get a better car than you and all you can afford is an 11 year old Honda. Now that you are being called out on it, all of a sudden all your money is in “investment”. You don’t even contribute fully to your 401k! From all your posts, it’s more than clear you are just horrible with money. Just stfu... I swear man, bunch of whiners on this forum.
 
lmao... look at this guy. In the beginning you were complaining even a plumber with a high school education can get a better car than you and all you can afford is an 11 year old Honda. Now that you are being called out on it, all of a sudden all your money is in “investment”. You don’t even contribute fully to your 401k! From all your posts, it’s more than clear you are just horrible with money. Just stfu... I swear man, bunch of whiners on this forum.

I think you have me confused with someone else? I max out 401k and Roth. Search my old posts if you want.

Here is a screenshot of my 401k. I know it's low for a pharmacist but I started late (started working in 2015). I wouldn't call it horrible though.

Screenshot_2020-01-02-21-18-03.png


It is true that my plumber makes more than me, he made $3600 cash for two days worth of work. That's more take home than an entire paycheck for me.
 
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I think you have me confused with someone else? I max out 401k and Roth. Search my old posts if you want.

Here is a screenshot of my 401k. I know it's low for a pharmacist but I started late (started working in 2015). I wouldn't call it horrible though.

View attachment 291529

It is true that my plumber makes more than me, he made $3600 cash for two days worth of work. That's more take home than an entire paycheck for me.

It doesn’t matter if the 401k person is you or not. How are you making less than $3600 per paycheck? You are just getting more and more ridiculous.
 
It doesn’t matter if the 401k person is you or not. How are you making less than $3600 per paycheck? You are just getting more and more ridiculous.

You have never heard of maxing out your 401 k, HSA? After taxes including state income tax and healthcare cost, you are taking home 50% of what you earned.

I always tell people...dumb people buy fancy cars. Financing it is even worse because it would increase your debt to income ratio....can’t buy rental properties.
 
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I always tell people...dumb people buy fancy cars. Financing it is even worse because it would increase your debt to income ratio....can’t buy rental properties.
What's wrong with owning a "fancy car" if you can afford it? What qualifies as a "fancy car" in your opinion? Could someone ever have a "fancy car" and be financially responsible?
 
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What's wrong with owning a "fancy car" if you can afford it? What qualifies as a "fancy car" in your opinion? Could someone ever have a "fancy car" and be financially responsible?

It is not whether you can or can’t “afford” a fancy car. It is a stupid purchase for most pharmacists. Financing the car is even worse. It is fake wealth. It is like signaling you have money when you actually don’t....like wearing a fake rolex.
 
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It doesn’t matter if the 401k person is you or not. How are you making less than $3600 per paycheck? You are just getting more and more ridiculous.

You just said I don't max my 401k and I posted my balance and now it doesn't matter? Okay.

My take home is $2700/paycheck after 401k, health/dental insurance, taxes. After paying the mortgage, property taxes, home/auto insurance, child care, 529, diapers/wipes, doctor copays, utilities, food, gas, car maintenance etc nope I don't have $3600 left of disposable income for a depreciating asset.
 
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What's wrong with owning a "fancy car" if you can afford it? What qualifies as a "fancy car" in your opinion? Could someone ever have a "fancy car" and be financially responsible?

If you can afford it there's nothing wrong, but it's still a splurge. Paying tens of thousands of dollars for a depreciating asset is not a financially responsible move. That's a luxury I can't afford. It doesn't mean I'm horrible with money.
 
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It is not whether you can or can’t “afford” a fancy car. It is a stupid purchase for most pharmacists. Financing the car is even worse. It is fake wealth. It is like signaling you have money when you actually don’t....like wearing a fake rolex.
I guess I consider it more individualistic and respectfully disagree. If a pharmacist is paying cash for a "fancy car" and is overall financially responsible, What is the basis for calling purchasing one the product of "fake wealth." If she is maxing out her 401K and other retirement accounts, aggressively investing in paper assets outside of retirement accounts, has no consumer debt, owns paid for rental property, has no mortgage on her personal residence, her having a "fancy car" is not fake. It is the product of actual wealth built and a desire to have nice things.

I struggle with your response because I've listened to Dave Ramsey off and on since 2006. One of his principles is "Drive like no one else so later you can Drive like no one else." It's a principle of delayed gratification (not absolute deprivation for the rest of your life). Maybe total deprivation motivates you, but it depresses me and plenty of others. There is a point where someone's wealth easily justifies fancy car, regardless of if they want it or not. There is nothing "fake" about them owning one. Calling someone like this stupid is not only uncalled for, it's really naive, as someone like this generally has greater financial accumen and wherewithtal than those "smart" people who never enjoy their money. Personally, I do believe it is very much an issue of affordiability. That said, I agree there are plenty of people who cannot afford a "fancy car", pharmacist or not.
 
If you can afford it there's nothing wrong, but it's still a splurge. Paying tens of thousands of dollars for a depreciating asset is not a financially responsible move. That's a luxury I can't afford. It doesn't mean I'm horrible with money.
Totally fair to call it a splurge. I'm certainly not judging you at all for not splurging. I took issue with another comment judging others for splurging if it was within their means. I think the issue of financial responsibility is dependent on ones income. If someone worth $5 million wants to drive a Bentley worth $150,000, why would I care or call them irresponsible (depreciating asset or not).
 
I guess I consider it more individualistic and respectfully disagree. If a pharmacist is paying cash for a "fancy car" and is overall financially responsible, What is the basis for calling purchasing one the product of "fake wealth." If she is maxing out her 401K and other retirement accounts, aggressively investing in paper assets outside of retirement accounts, has no consumer debt, owns paid for rental property, has no mortgage on her personal residence, her having a "fancy car" is not fake. It is the product of actual wealth built and a desire to have nice things.

I struggle with your response because I've listened to Dave Ramsey off and on since 2006. One of his principles is "Drive like no one else so later you can Drive like no one else." It's a principle of delayed gratification (not absolute deprivation for the rest of your life). Maybe total deprivation motivates you, but it depresses me and plenty of others. There is a point where someone's wealth easily justifies fancy car, regardless of if they want it or not. There is nothing "fake" about them owning one. Calling someone like this stupid is not only uncalled for, it's really naive, as someone like this generally has greater financial accumen and wherewithtal than those "smart" people who never enjoy their money. Personally, I do believe it is very much an issue of affordiability. That said, I agree there are plenty of people who cannot afford a "fancy car", pharmacist or not.

I say financing a car is like fake wealth in the post. Borrowing money to buy something that appreciates in value is one thing but borrowing money to buy a fancy car doesn’t make any financial sense.

It is not whether you can or can’t “afford” a fancy car. It is a stupid purchase for most pharmacists. Financing the car is even worse. It is fake wealth. It is like signaling you have money when you actually don’t....like wearing a fake rolex.
 
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I think the issue of financial responsibility is dependent on ones income. If someone worth $5 million wants to drive a Bentley worth $150,000, why would I care or call them irresponsible (depreciating asset or not).

Obviously I am not talking about someone with $5M. I am talking about your average pharmacist...many of them have a boat load of debt. If you already have a boat load of debt, why would you take on more debt to pay a fancy car?
 
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I say financing a car is like fake wealth in the post. Borrowing money to buy something that appreciates in value is one thing but borrowing money to buy a fancy car doesn’t make any financial sense.
It wasn't clear to me in your post that you were limiting your fake wealth comment to only those who financed vehicles. I agree with that wholeheartedly. Thanks for clarifying.
 
Obviously I am not talking about someone with $5M. I am talking about your average pharmacist...many of them have a boat load of debt. If you already have a boat load of debt, why would you take on more debt to pay a fancy car?
Honestly, I don't know what the average pharmacist has. I graduted a while ago. Most of my pharmacist friends paid off their student loans and consumer debt (including me) years ago. Any student loan debt we had was generally much smaller anyway. I am unaware of any comprehensive data that speaks to pharmcists' balance sheets, and I suspect it changes based on when one graduates (just like any other profession). However, assuming someone has worked as a pharmacist for a while, I would hope that the typical pharmacist would have accumulated some meaningful wealth. However, if not, then it is indeed silly for them to be driving a car inconsistent with their overall financial situation. Have never advocated financing a car.
 
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My take home is $2700/paycheck after 401k, health/dental insurance, taxes. After paying the mortgage, property taxes, home/auto insurance, child care, 529, diapers/wipes, doctor copays, utilities, food, gas, car maintenance etc nope I don't have $3600 left of disposable income for a depreciating asset.

You don't think your plumber has all of these different expenses as well? Just because your plumber is taking home $3600, he still has to pay taxes on it, and he still has to pay for all the stuff that you mentioned, maybe even more stuff that you don't know about. Why are you so jealous of your plumber? Personally, I would not want to work with crap and mold and who knows what else they find in toilets, plumbers deserve what they get, and I sure don't want their job. If you really think things are better as a plumber, then go back to trade school and become a plumber.
 
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You just said I don't max my 401k and I posted my balance and now it doesn't matter? Okay.

My take home is $2700/paycheck after 401k, health/dental insurance, taxes. After paying the mortgage, property taxes, home/auto insurance, child care, 529, diapers/wipes, doctor copays, utilities, food, gas, car maintenance etc nope I don't have $3600 left of disposable income for a depreciating asset.

I was thinking per month... so I was wrong there.

Of course it doesn't matter if you actually max out your 401k or not! My whole original point was that you are being ridiculous in saying that a pharmacist can only afford an 11-year-old honda! That's your choice! If it's true that's all you can afford then yes, you are horrible with money! I don't care if you like to invest your money or not, you should still have enough money left over for a decent car. If all people can afford is a beat-up car after making over 100k for x amount of years, then the car industry would have gone bankrupt a long time ago.

I still remember a poster from a while ago saying he regrets being a pharmacist because all he can afford to eat are ramen noodles. You sound just as idiotic as that guy.
 
You have never heard of maxing out your 401 k, HSA? After taxes including state income tax and healthcare cost, you are taking home 50% of what you earned.

I always tell people...dumb people buy fancy cars. Financing it is even worse because it would increase your debt to income ratio....can’t buy rental properties.

It's still possible to take home 3600/paycheck for pharmacists in California tho. You out of all people should know that. But I do admit I was wrong because I was thinking about monthly income. I also wasn't talking about fancy car; all I said was I find his assertion that he can only afford to drive an 11 year old honda to be complete nonsense.
 
Obviously I am not talking about someone with $5M. I am talking about your average pharmacist...many of them have a boat load of debt. If you already have a boat load of debt, why would you take on more debt to pay a fancy car?
Leasing a car is the worst financial decision. That’s how the car dealers make more money. They make less when you pay the total in cash or check.
 
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It's still possible to take home 3600/paycheck for pharmacists in California tho. You out of all people should know that. But I do admit I was wrong because I was thinking about monthly income. I also wasn't talking about fancy car; all I said was I find his assertion that he can only afford to drive an 11 year old honda to be complete nonsense.

It is possible but unlikely after federal and CA taxes, 401 k, HSA and health insurance for most pharmacists. I make pretty good money but I don’t take home 3600/paycheck after expenses.
 
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If you max out 401k you would have to earn a minimum of $160k in California to take home $3600 per paycheck. That is not including health insurance and other deductions.
 
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