Yale vs. CCLCM

[timetodecide2018]

I love both of these programs for a lot of the same reasons. What has me torn is that Yale has a bigger name and a more flexible curriculum, whereas CCLCM has a better hospital affiliation and is tuition free (still waiting on financial aid from Yale).

My Interests

I'm most likely going to go into internal medicine and subspecialize, though I'm also interested in rad/onc. Would like the best chance to match at a reputable academic IM program. The biggest question I have is, all else being equal (board scores, letters of rec, research), which school will get me where I want easiest in terms of residency and a competitive academic career.

CCLCM

Pros

• Small (32), very close-knit class with lots of individualized faculty attention (students feel respected)
• No grades, exams, or rankings for all five years and no comparisons reported to residency programs (no AOA)
• Training and networking at the freaking Cleveland Clinic (#2 hospital)
• Highly ranked home residency programs and overall impressive match list
• Good pre-clinical scheduling (8-12 sessions, free afternoons)
• Integrated research removes stress of finding opportunities independently
• Closer to family
• Tuition-free

Cons

• Degree is conferred from CWRU as opposed to the Cleveland Clinic (not as prestigious, not sure if residency programs and future employers would know the difference)
• Highly structured program with mandatory attendance (concerned about flexibility)
• Five years is required (research year any time in years 3-5)
• Fewer opportunities outside of medicine/research
• % of students who match to first choice hasn't been too impressive (50-60%)

Yale University

Pros

• Prestigious school within and outside of medicine
• True p/f pre-clinical with optional and anonymous exams
• No AOA and no comparative data reported to residency programs
• Low-stress clinical years (no shelf exams, high honors rate)
• Extremely flexible pre-clinical curriculum (very few mandatory activities)
• High Step 1 average and INSANE match list
• More opportunities outside of medicine/research (I'm interested in teaching and science writing)
• Happiest students out of all the schools I visited by far
• Enormous breadth of research opportunities (lots of NIH funding)
• Medium-sized class of 100 (not too big or very small) that seemed close-knit
• Small group seminars with faculty in addition to recorded lectures

Cons

• New Haven isn't great (far from family, not much around, not cheap either)
• Likely more expensive, but still waiting for financial aid (obviously won't be free like CCLCM)
• Not affiliated with powerhouse hospital system like CCLCM
• Not as many highly ranked home residency programs as CCLCM
• Huge regional bias in match list -- trouble matching to Midwest?
• Greater focus on basic science as opposed to translational research
• Still has clinical grades unlike CCLCM (though honors rate is high)
• Fallen in 2019 research rankings (not a big deal by itself, but something to consider)

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[Willy38]

I love both of these programs for a lot of the same reasons. What has me torn is that Yale has a bigger name and a more flexible curriculum, whereas CCLCM has a better hospital affiliation and is tuition free (still waiting on financial aid from Yale).

My Interests

I'm most likely going to go into internal medicine and subspecialize, though I'm also interested in rad/onc. Would like the best chance to match at a reputable academic IM program. The biggest question I have is, all else being equal (board scores, letters of rec, research), which school will get me where I want easiest in terms of residency and a competitive academic career.

CCLCM

Pros

• Small (32), very close-knit class with lots of individualized faculty attention (students feel respected)
• No grades, exams, or rankings for all five years and no comparisons reported to residency programs (no AOA)
• Training and networking at the freaking Cleveland Clinic (#2 hospital)
• Highly ranked home residency programs and overall impressive match list
• Good pre-clinical scheduling (8-12 sessions, free afternoons)
• Integrated research removes stress of finding opportunities independently
• Closer to family
• Tuition-free

Cons

• Degree is conferred from CWRU as opposed to the Cleveland Clinic (not as prestigious, not sure if residency programs and future employers would know the difference)
• Highly structured program with mandatory attendance (concerned about flexibility)
• Five years is required (research year any time in years 3-5)
• Fewer opportunities outside of medicine/research
• % of students who match to first choice hasn't been too impressive (50-60%)

Yale University

Pros

• Prestigious school within and outside of medicine
• True p/f pre-clinical with optional and anonymous exams
• No AOA and no comparative data reported to residency programs
• Low-stress clinical years (no shelf exams, high honors rate)
• Extremely flexible pre-clinical curriculum (very few mandatory activities)
• High Step 1 average and INSANE match list
• More opportunities outside of medicine/research (I'm interested in teaching and science writing)
• Happiest students out of all the schools I visited by far
• Enormous breadth of research opportunities (lots of NIH funding)
• Medium-sized class of 100 (not too big or very small) that seemed close-knit
• Small group seminars with faculty in addition to recorded lectures

Cons

• New Haven isn't great (far from family, not much around, not cheap either)
• Likely more expensive, but still waiting for financial aid (obviously won't be free like CCLCM)
• Not affiliated with powerhouse hospital system like CCLCM
• Not as many highly ranked home residency programs as CCLCM
• Huge regional bias in match list -- trouble matching to Midwest?
• Greater focus on basic science as opposed to translational research
• Still has clinical grades unlike CCLCM (though honors rate is high)
• Fallen in 2019 research rankings (not a big deal by itself, but something to consider)

The all else being equal part isn't really going to be the same at both schools. You'll have different experiences, mentors/letters, research, and grades at the two different schools. Step is super personal so I wouldn't use that as an indicator (although at Yale we get a lot of time to study for it if you want it, and traditionally we do very well). The no grades, no shelfs, no AOA is HUGE which really adds to our great match list every year. As for the midwest, the consensus among classmates seems to be that they all want to be on one coast or the other (haven't heard anyone really say they want to be in midwest since I've been here). As for USNWR rankings, these don't matter too much and change every year so I wouldn't worry. As for residency, if you want to be at a specific program then going to school there definitely helps but IM is such a large field it probably matters less. Both have incredible research opportunities/match list etc. so I think it boils down to CCLCM is free which is awesome (hospital big name, and yes people know that CCLCM is different than Case) and Yale is the definition of low stress (University big name).
Wait for fin aid and then decide. Congrats on some great options!

 

[timetodecide2018]

The all else being equal part isn't really going to be the same at both schools. You'll have different experiences, mentors/letters, research, and grades at the two different schools. Step is super personal so I wouldn't use that as an indicator (although at Yale we get a lot of time to study for it if you want it, and traditionally we do very well). The no grades, no shelfs, no AOA is HUGE which really adds to our great match list every year. As for the midwest, the consensus among classmates seems to be that they all want to be on one coast or the other (haven't heard anyone really say they want to be in midwest since I've been here). As for USNWR rankings, these don't matter too much and change every year so I wouldn't worry. As for residency, if you want to be at a specific program then going to school there definitely helps but IM is such a large field it probably matters less. Both have incredible research opportunities/match list etc. so I think it boils down to CCLCM is free which is awesome (hospital big name, and yes people know that CCLCM is different than Case) and Yale is the definition of low stress (University big name).
Wait for fin aid and then decide. Congrats on some great options!

Thanks! I'm definitely a big fan of the low-stress atmosphere at Yale, though it seems to be quite similar for CCLCM. I actually narrowed my choices down to these schools because of their similarity in this respect. Sounds like you're a student at Yale. Do you mind sharing your least favorite part of the school (and favorite if the no grades/shelfs/AOA isn't it)? How enthusiastic are faculty about mentoring and working with students (pre-clinical, clinical, and research)? Thanks in advance!

 

[CyrusHabs7695]

@AnatomyGrey12 After seeing the US News rankings, I can't even believe this guy is thinking about going to Yale, what a joke.









Just kidding. Saying you did research at the Cleveland Clinic is pretty bad ass, Id pick that

 

[timetodecide2018]

@AnatomyGrey12 After seeing the US News rankings, I can't even believe this guy is thinking about going to Yale, what a joke.









Just kidding. Saying you did research at the Cleveland Clinic is pretty bad ass, Id pick that

Thanks for your input! The opportunity to train and do research at CCF is definitely enticing. My dilemma (or one of them at least) seems to be that I prefer Yale's pre-clinical setup but prefer CCLCM's clinical opportunities.

 

[CyrusHabs7695]

Thanks for your input! The opportunity to train and do research at CCF is definitely enticing. My dilemma (or one of them at least) seems to be that I prefer Yale's pre-clinical setup but prefer CCLCM's clinical opportunities.

You obviously can't go wrong with either. If it were me, Id take the free tuition and research opportunities in Cleveland and never look back.

 

[Willy38]

Thanks! I'm definitely a big fan of the low-stress atmosphere at Yale, though it seems to be quite similar for CCLCM. I actually narrowed my choices down to these schools because of their similarity in this respect. Sounds like you're a student at Yale. Do you mind sharing your least favorite part of the school (and favorite if the no grades/shelfs/AOA isn't it)? How enthusiastic are faculty about mentoring and working with students (pre-clinical, clinical, and research)? Thanks in advance!

Yeah for me I had a lot of interests outside of medicine that I wanted to pursue and have been able to since I've been here, really leveraging the strength of the University as a whole. I was also tired of jumping throug hoops and Yale really cuts the BS and treats you like an adult regarding your education (basically kickstarts adult learning like we will all have to do continually following graduation). And I know this may sound petty but I went to a smaller school for undergrad and wanted my last degree to be from a big name university (which for what i want to end up doing actually will matter).

I do think I would have enjoyed another school a lot too but I would have had more tunnel vision, I think, which is necessary to excel in the classroom when you are competing for every percentage point. Sounds like CCLCM has a similarly relaxed culture which is nice. Mentoring here is FANTASTIC. I've had a number of different mentors for various interests here and all the students regularly meet at professors houses for dinner etc. (e.g. my research fellowship in Europe next year was set up throuh personal connections between my mentor and is funded by Yale). Basically you just email anyone and they are more than willing to help you in any way they can and Yale always funds your projects well. We are also paired with individual/personal advisors and librarians for our thesis requirement which brings up another common theme- Yale pushes research HARD. If traditional research is not your thing then you can totally pursue other fields (many do collaborative work with humanities professors/history of medicine, or econ/law faculty for their theses). I think my least favorite thing has been living in New Haven. Its actually not that bad, but I don't like cities and am more used to a rural atmosphere. Hope that helps!

Just wanted to add that if you want to do research somewhere as a 5th year you can literally go wherever you want and yale will pay you for it. So say you were set on doing research at CCF but wanted to go to yale, I'd come here and just take a fully funded 5th there. A ton of people do this here, although most who leave work at UCSF for some reason or do international work/Fulbrights.

 

[timetodecide2018]

Yeah for me I had a lot of interests outside of medicine that I wanted to pursue and have been able to since I've been here, really leveraging the strength of the University as a whole. I was also tired of jumping throug hoops and Yale really cuts the BS and treats you like an adult regarding your education (basically kickstarts adult learning like we will all have to do continually following graduation). And I know this may sound petty but I went to a smaller school for undergrad and wanted my last degree to be from a big name university (which for what i want to end up doing actually will matter).

I do think I would have enjoyed another school a lot too but I would have had more tunnel vision, I think, which is necessary to excel in the classroom when you are competing for every percentage point. Sounds like CCLCM has a similarly relaxed culture which is nice. Mentoring here is FANTASTIC. I've had a number of different mentors for various interests here and all the students regularly meet at professors houses for dinner etc. (e.g. my research fellowship in Europe next year was set up throuh personal connections between my mentor and is funded by Yale). Basically you just email anyone and they are more than willing to help you in any way they can and Yale always funds your projects well. We are also paired with individual/personal advisors and librarians for our thesis requirement which brings up another common theme- Yale pushes research HARD. If traditional research is not your thing then you can totally pursue other fields (many do collaborative work with humanities professors/history of medicine, or econ/law faculty for their theses). I think my least favorite thing has been living in New Haven. Its actually not that bad, but I don't like cities and am more used to a rural atmosphere. Hope that helps!

Just wanted to add that if you want to do research somewhere as a 5th year you can literally go wherever you want and yale will pay you for it. So say you were set on doing research at CCF but wanted to go to yale, I'd come here and just take a fully funded 5th there. A ton of people do this here, although most who leave work at UCSF for some reason or do international work/Fulbrights.

Thanks, that was very helpful. Seems like both schools are serious about research, which is great for me. Incidentally, I think CCLCM students are also allowed to do their research year elsewhere. I'm realizing there are far more similarities than differences here--guess that's a good thing. Hopefully second looks clarify things for me further as well.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

@AnatomyGrey12 After seeing the US News rankings, I can't even believe this guy is thinking about going to Yale, what a joke.









Just kidding. Saying you did research at the Cleveland Clinic is pretty bad ass, Id pick that

It’s definitely a rookie move Cyrus, that’s for sure.

OP go where you feel like you fit in best.

 

[timetodecide2018]

It’s definitely a rookie move Cyrus, that’s for sure.

OP go where you feel like you fit in best.

Makes sense. At this point I feel like I would fit in well at both schools though. I'm sure Second Looks will only make me like each school even more since all programs try to put their best foot forward.

 

[878956]

If I were in your shoes, I would go with CCLCM.

 

[carrots28]

There are opportunities to do stuff outside of medicine and research. The structured activities are mainly through Case. Some students find their own opportunities such as after school teaching. It seems you like Yale more. You should go with your gut feeling. Last I heard they give pretty good finaid.

Also consider where you might prefer to do residency

 

[timetodecide2018]

There are opportunities to do stuff outside of medicine and research. The structured activities are mainly through Case. Some students find their own opportunities such as after school teaching. It seems you like Yale more. You should go with your gut feeling. Last I heard they give pretty good finaid.

Also consider where you might prefer to do residency

Thanks for your input @carrots28. What kinds of opportunities stand out? As I mentioned, I'm particularly interested in teaching and science writing/communication.

If I were in your shoes, I would go with CCLCM.

Thanks for your input as well @H20_Jay. Would you mind sharing your reasons?

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

I'm not sure why you're even comparing these two. CCLCM wins big time. CCLCM is VERY prestigious, and will continue to become more and more prestigious. YSM is falling down the sinkhole fast, just refresh your computer screen a few times and you'll see it fall in the rankings. Not to mention the location is inconvenient and a total dump. CCLCM will give you infinitely more opportunities for FREE! A lot of students take a 5th research year at top schools anyway -- I'm assuming you're a high-achiever and will probably too -- so why not have it built into the curriculum, and attend a school at one of the most prestigious medical centers in the country?! There's just no comparison here.

@CyrusHabs7695 lol

 

[CyrusHabs7695]

@CyrusHabs7695 lol

 

[scienceguy95]

This guy REALLY doesn’t like Yale lol.

 

[Willy38]

This guy REALLY doesn’t like Yale lol.

must not have gotten in... (Kind of how I still hate Harvard lol jk)

 

[carrots28]

Thanks for your input @carrots28. What kinds of opportunities stand out? As I mentioned, I'm particularly interested in teaching and science writing/communication.


Thanks for your input as well @H20_Jay. Would you mind sharing your reasons?

There is a program to teach sex ed. I think there are anatomy camps for local students I believe at John Jay high school. There are mentor ship programs I heard. Some do after school tutoring or after school sports with kids.

 

[letmeinplox]

CCLM

 

[scienceguy95]

Both Yale and CCLCM have low-stress academic cultures. I'd lean toward Yale slightly just because it is a bit more flexible than CCLCM (e.g., optional fifth year as opposed to mandatory). Additionally, the highly flexible Yale System will likely let you pursue your other interests and do productive research without a fifth year. Both schools match phenomenally, so you really can't go wrong.

 

[Microbug]

Both Yale and CCLCM have low-stress academic cultures. I'd lean toward Yale slightly just because it is a bit more flexible than CCLCM (e.g., optional fifth year as opposed to mandatory). Additionally, the highly flexible Yale System will likely let you pursue your other interests and do productive research without a fifth year. Both schools match phenomenally, so you really can't go wrong.

But tuition free

 

[scienceguy95]

But tuition free

That’s true. However, OP loses one year of attending salary assuming he/she wouldn’t take a research year at Yale. If OP would need to use loans for most of the cost at Yale, then In the long term OP may save a little more by attending CCLCM.

 

[Microbug]

That’s true. However, OP loses one year of attending salary assuming he/she wouldn’t take a research year at Yale. If OP would need to use loans for most of the cost at Yale, then In the long term OP may save a little more by attending CCLCM.

I recommend OP to wait until the financial package first. Depending on how much Yale offers, it could be well more than 1 yr of attending salary

 

[timetodecide2018]

Thank you for the opinions everyone. Unfortunately I just found out I will not be getting any financial aid from Yale, so the final COA will be 90K/year (Yale) vs. 30K/year (CCLCM). I think if finances weren't an issue I would choose Yale just because of the added flexibility of their program, but obviously the COA difference is pretty substantial. The only "benefit" of Yale financially speaking is that it is four years as opposed to five, which translates to a year of attending salary + Cleveland living expenses to factor into the equation (230K conservatively speaking). So assuming I don't think a fifth year at Yale and don't need to rely heavily on interest-accruing loans, the long-term cost differential may be negligible. I'm still very much torn, so more opinions would be greatly appreciated.

 

[Microbug]

Thank you for the opinions everyone. Unfortunately I just found out I will not be getting any financial aid from Yale, so the final COA will be 90K/year (Yale) vs. 30K/year (CCLCM). I think if finances weren't an issue I would choose Yale just because of the added flexibility of their program, but obviously the COA difference is pretty substantial. The only "benefit" of Yale financially speaking is that it is four years as opposed to five, which translates to a year of attending salary + Cleveland living expenses to factor into the equation (230K conservatively speaking). So assuming I don't think a fifth year at Yale and don't need to rely heavily on interest-accruing loans, the long-term cost differential may be negligible. I'm still very much torn, so more opinions would be greatly appreciated.

So yale comes out to about 320k while Cleveland is about 150k. Although New Haven is actually not as cheap as you think and for the same amount of money, you’d be living more comfortably at Cleveland.
360k with interest can translate to ALOT more money than 150k, and you can be paying back 600k and upward easy in the end when it’s all done. I’d say you can still live comfortably while paying it back but if you throw things like kids, insurance, mortgage, and life in general into the mix, it complicates things. So it depends how much things like quality of life (and knowing you have all these debt) matters to you personally. And if the prestige of saying you went to Yale is worth the extra 210k+interest, which comes out to extra 350k plus in the end.

 

[scienceguy95]

So yale comes out to about 320k while Cleveland is about 150k. Although New Haven is actually not as cheap as you think and for the same amount of money, you’d be living more comfortably at Cleveland.
360k with interest can translate to ALOT more money than 150k, and you can be paying back 600k and upward easy in the end when it’s all done. I’d say you can still live comfortably while paying it back but if you throw things like kids, insurance, mortgage, and life in general into the mix, it complicates things. So it depends how much things like quality of life (and knowing you have all these debt) matters to you personally. And if the prestige of saying you went to Yale is worth the extra 210k+interest, which comes out to 350k plus in the end.

Yeah I would agree with this. The only caveat is that OP mentioned not heavily relying on interest-accruing loans, which suggests to me he/she may have some parental support or be personally well-off enough to finance a portion of the cost.

I think another issue here is that OP clearly seems to be leaning toward Yale for valid reasons (added flexibility), but finances have made the decisions more difficult. It's definitely a tough choice, but I would advise OP make a choice he/she will not regret even if that means going with the more expensive option. I think I've developed a reputation for defending CCLCM on SDN, but I would recommend OP choose Yale if that's where his/her heart is set on. I don't think there will be any difference in opportunities or quality of training at these two schools, but it's undoubtedly true that Yale is more flexible and is slightly more prestigious, which seem to be factors OP cares about.

 

[pilgrampirate86]

So yale comes out to about 320k while Cleveland is about 150k. Although New Haven is actually not as cheap as you think and for the same amount of money, you’d be living more comfortably at Cleveland.
360k with interest can translate to ALOT more money than 150k, and you can be paying back 600k and upward easy in the end when it’s all done. I’d say you can still live comfortably while paying it back but if you throw things like kids, insurance, mortgage, and life in general into the mix, it complicates things. So it depends how much things like quality of life (and knowing you have all these debt) matters to you personally. And if the prestige of saying you went to Yale is worth the extra 210k+interest, which comes out to extra 350k plus in the end.

Financially: Yale has a tuition-free fifth-year option. So if you did that, then you'd have to take away the attending salary from your calculation. Also as Microbug said, I've seen first hand, interest can pile up and you could be paying back 600k when all is said and done. That is an incredible burden upon yourself, and future family, and can negatively influence even the jobs you take.

Both schools are great, I would definitely goto CCLM. It's equally as prestigious (if not more in the medical community), the program is very similar, and you will save a TON of money. I think very few people would pay all that money just for the prestige of the "Yale name" in the non-medical community.

 

[scienceguy95]

OP, could you clarify how much loans you'd need to take out for Yale? If it's for the entire COA, then CCLCM is the no-brainer. If you wouldn't need to take out any loans (the other extreme), then you really need to think carefully about which factors are most important to you. I largely agree with your pro/con list, but here are the biggest differences that I think you need to consider.

Cleveland Clinic vs. Yale -- I'd argue CCF is more prestigious within medicine but Yale is more prestigious overall and still fairly prestigious in medicine. Yale is also much more established for medical school, which may give a slight edge for residency programs (but this is probably marginal). I'd imagine clinical opportunities at CCF would be stronger but opportunities outside of medicine would be better at Yale (which do you care about more?)

Optional vs. mandatory research year -- If you're not set on a hyper-competitive surgical subspecialty, then having an optional fifth year seems better than a mandatory fifth year. Mandatory fifth year also adds 30K to your COA for CCLCM as you've mentioned.

Flexible vs. structured curriculum -- Which environment do you think you'd thrive in better? CCLCM has daily mandatory sessions whereas Yale is much more hands-off.

With that said, I don't think you can go wrong here. I consider CCLCM to be a peer institution to the top 5 medical schools (they certainly match like those schools), but Yale is a similarly attractive option.

 

[timetodecide2018]

OP, could you clarify how much loans you'd need to take out for Yale? If it's for the entire COA, then CCLCM is the no-brainer. If you wouldn't need to take out any loans (the other extreme), then you really need to think carefully about which factors are most important to you. I largely agree with your pro/con list, but here are the biggest differences that I think you need to consider.

Cleveland Clinic vs. Yale -- I'd argue CCF is more prestigious within medicine but Yale is more prestigious overall and still fairly prestigious in medicine. Yale is also much more established for medical school, which may give a slight edge for residency programs (but this is probably marginal). I'd imagine clinical opportunities at CCF would be stronger but opportunities outside of medicine would be better at Yale (which do you care about more?)

Optional vs. mandatory research year -- If you're not set on a hyper-competitive surgical subspecialty, then having an optional fifth year seems better than a mandatory fifth year. Mandatory fifth year also adds 30K to your COA for CCLCM as you've mentioned.

Flexible vs. structured curriculum -- Which environment do you think you'd thrive in better? CCLCM has daily mandatory sessions whereas Yale is much more hands-off.

With that said, I don't think you can go wrong here. I consider CCLCM to be a peer institution to the top 5 medical schools (they certainly match like those schools), but Yale is a similarly attractive option.

Thanks for your input! I'll have a better idea of finances in a few weeks, so I'll update then if possible, but I won't be taking out loans for the entire COA for sure. The major differences you highlighted are definitely the ones I'm considering. Seems like the general consensus here is to choose CCLCM, which is interesting. I'm assuming this is due to cost mostly?

Hopefully Yale's Second Look clarifies things further.

 

[Lucozade27]

Thanks for your input! I'll have a better idea of finances in a few weeks, so I'll update then if possible, but I won't be taking out loans for the entire COA for sure. The major differences you highlighted are definitely the ones I'm considering. Seems like the general consensus here is to choose CCLCM, which is interesting. I'm assuming this is due to cost mostly?

Hopefully Yale's Second Look clarifies things further.

Yes, cost is important.... but in the end, go wherever you'll be happiest for 4-5 years. Can't put a price on that. Use second look as an opportunity to see where you'll fit in better and be happier.

 

[scienceguy95]

Yes, cost is important.... but in the end, go wherever you'll be happiest for 4-5 years. Can't put a price on that. Use second look as an opportunity to see where you'll fit in better and be happier.

I'll echo this. Lots of people are going to tell OP to choose CCLCM because it's less expensive and still pretty prestigious, but at end of the day OP needs to feel comfortable with his/her decision. OP, it sucks that Yale won't offer you any aid (seems like they are notoriously stingy from what I've seen), but if you heart is telling you to attend Yale, then go for it and never look back.

 

[Microbug]

I'll echo this. Lots of people are going to tell OP to choose CCLCM because it's less expensive and still pretty prestigious, but at end of the day OP needs to feel comfortable with his/her decision. OP, it sucks that Yale won't offer you any aid (seems like they are notoriously stingy from what I've seen), but if you heart is telling you to attend Yale, then go for it and never look back.

I think just bc OP may be happier at Yale doesn’t mean he will be unhappy at CCLCM. I think only OP can decide if the amount you’ll be happier is equivalent to half a million plus.

 

[scienceguy95]

I think just bc OP may be happier at Yale doesn’t mean he will be unhappy at CCLCM. I think only OP can decide if the amount you’ll be happier is equivalent to half a million plus.

Also true. Though to be more accurate the COA difference seems to be 150k for CCLCM vs. 360k for Yale (+/- one year of attending salary depending on OP's plans for a fifth year at Yale).

 

[carrots28]

Having worked before going back to school, I would consider cost. Couple reasons are that even though it is an attending salary, cost of taxes brings it down. $300k+ (high estimate) - 35% taxes (varies by income bracket) brings income closer to $195k not considering other expenses you might have (aka morgatage, car payments, and childcare which can be about $10k-20k/year depending on how much of it you need). Also living in a nice area means you also pay significant property school taxes. In a nice neighborhood with good schools about $20k/year for the kiddos at least in the northeast, probably better tax situations in other regions of the US. Just my opinion though, personally, I wouldn't exclude cost as a factor unless it's costing you your happiness. It seems the midwest is where your family is. Sometimes that can almost be invaluable.

 

[Microbug]

Also true. Though to be more accurate the COA difference seems to be 150k for CCLCM vs. 360k for Yale (+/- one year of attending salary depending on OP's plans for a fifth year at Yale).

You have not factored in interest my friend, which is a scary scary thing

 

[scienceguy95]

You have not factored in interest my friend, which is a scary scary thing

True. In the end there's no question CCLCM is a better financial value than Yale--and in my opinion their hospital system is much more prestigious than Yale's. CCLCM's IM home residency program is also stronger than Yale's. Their match list this year was also more impressive than Yale's in my opinion (Duke, Stanford, Penn, and MGH encompassed every single IM match). Obviously Yale is an exceptional school, but CCLCM is certainly a peer institution.

My only point is that it seems CCLCM isn't as much of a "no-brainer" to the OP as it ostensibly should be, which suggests his/her heart is set on Yale but the COA difference is hard to swallow.

 

[KdotLB]

True. In the end there's no question CCLCM is a better financial value than Yale--and in my opinion their hospital system is much more prestigious than Yale's. CCLCM's IM home residency program is also stronger than Yale's. Their match list this year was also more impressive than Yale's in my opinion (Duke, Stanford, Penn, and MGH encompassed every single IM match). Obviously Yale is an exceptional school, but CCLCM is certainly a peer institution.

My only point is that it seems CCLCM isn't as much of a "no-brainer" to the OP as it ostensibly should be, which suggests his/her heart is set on Yale but the COA difference is hard to swallow.

My impression was that CCF wasn’t that highly ranked for IM, more so for the subspecialty fellowships though


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

 

[scienceguy95]

My impression was that CCF wasn’t that highly ranked for IM, more so for the subspecialty fellowships though


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

From where? CCF is a top 20 IM program.

 

[Lawpy]

You can't go wrong with either choice, so it depends on what you personally value more. If cost matters, go to CCLCM. If you think Yale is genuinely a good fit for you, go there.

 

[KdotLB]

From where? CCF is a top 20 IM program.

Based on doximity. Check out the IM forums. The majority of opinions there classify it as mid tier.

A quality program, no doubt. But maybe not bounds ahead of Yale’s IM program either


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[scienceguy95]

Based on doximity. Check out the IM forums. The majority of opinions there classify it as mid tier.

A quality program, no doubt. But maybe not bounds ahead of Yale’s IM program either


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Not sure what you’re referring to. But there’s also this:

Top 24 Internal Medicine Residencies, in Physicians' Opinions

 

[Microbug]

Not sure what you’re referring to. But there’s also this:

Top 24 Internal Medicine Residencies, in Physicians' Opinions

That is years ago when Cleveland clinic at one point was clearing out the top ranks in many specialities. Now it’s mayo.

 

[scienceguy95]

That is years ago when Cleveland clinic at one point was clearing out the top ranks in many specialities. Now it’s mayo.

No idea what you’re talking about. Mayo is at the top even in that list. Mayo and Cleveland are still at the top for most specialties.

EDIT: I'll just add that this is kind of a moot point anyway because CCLCM students (like Yale students) do not heavily rely on their home programs for the Match unlike other top schools (Wash U, Harvard, Hopkins). I think this is a testament to not only the aptitude of the students but also the resources and connections the faculty have at these programs.

 

[KdotLB]

No idea what you’re talking about. Mayo is at the top even in that list. Mayo and Cleveland are still at the top for most specialties.

EDIT: I'll just add that this is kind of a moot point anyway because CCLCM students (like Yale students) do not heavily rely on their home programs for the Match unlike other top schools (Wash U, Harvard, Hopkins). I think this is a testament to not only the aptitude of the students but also the resources and connections the faculty have at these programs.

I completely agree


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