Women in OB/Gyn

[jvarga]

In the interests of gender equality and fairness (not to mention that the SDN forums are probably being investigated by the government for overt sexism), I have decided to start this thread. Also, I wish to take advantage of this thread to make some points which I believe most of us on this forum agree with, except for a few minor non-medically trained/educated dissenters who particularly like to loudly disseminate their non-sensical and obviously biased non-scientific drivel:
1. Most OB/Gyns practice with the sole premise to treat illness, ensure adequate supervision of pregnancies/deliveries, and perpetuate women's health.
2. There is no difference between the quality of care that can be offered by either a male or female MD, period. No one gender is better than the other in any of the medical specialties.
3. Regardless of gender, there exists a small portion of MDs (both female and male) that practice medicine for questionable motives. When these motives are illegal or unethical and are discovered, swift and decisive action is usually undertaken by the appropriate authorities to remove the offending parties from "seeing/harming" patients.
4. Most MDs vehemently despise any and all of the MDs mentioned in #3, regardless of their gender.
5. Last time I checked, the patient has had, currently has, and will continue to have the final decision as to who they prefer to see and which procedures/exams they will allow to be performed on their bodies. No doctor is forcing the patient to show up in the clinic/hospital and no doctor is forcing the patient to consent to the procedure/exam. If the patient declines said procedure/exam, then it is not done, however, it is performed only when the patient has expressed explicit consent to proceed (hence, not rape). Simple as that. This is a point which the dissenters have not yet addressed (why do I have the distinct feeling that they will continue to ignore this point?).
6. You are foolish if you believe that the world can be changed by posting on these forums...a point which I know most rational SDNers are aware of, with a few obvious exceptions. However, I must say that without these select few "exceptions", these forums would not be as entertaining. I certainly have enjoyed the laughs and, yes, even the occasional tear!!! Please keep on posting!

I guess that will suffice for now. Respond if you wish. However, do so at your own risk. I refuse to assume responsibility for where this thread will take us and please do remember, the trolls will come!

Into the abyss we go...

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[Janice]

In the interests of gender equality and fairness (not to mention that the SDN forums are probably being investigated by the government for overt sexism), I have decided to start this thread. Also, I wish to take advantage of this thread to make some points which I believe most of us on this forum agree with, except for a few minor non-medically trained/educated dissenters who particularly like to loudly disseminate their non-sensical and obviously biased non-scientific drivel:
1. Most OB/Gyns practice with the sole premise to treat illness, ensure adequate supervision of pregnancies/deliveries, and perpetuate women's health.
2. There is no difference between the quality of care that can be offered by either a male or female MD, period. No one gender is better than the other in any of the medical specialties.
3. Regardless of gender, there exists a small portion of MDs (both female and male) that practice medicine for questionable motives. When these motives are illegal or unethical and are discovered, swift and decisive action is usually undertaken by the appropriate authorities to remove the offending parties from "seeing/harming" patients.
4. Most MDs vehemently despise any and all of the MDs mentioned in #3, regardless of their gender.
5. Last time I checked, the patient has had, currently has, and will continue to have the final decision as to who they prefer to see and which procedures/exams they will allow to be performed on their bodies. No doctor is forcing the patient to show up in the clinic/hospital and no doctor is forcing the patient to consent to the procedure/exam. If the patient declines said procedure/exam, then it is not done, however, it is performed only when the patient has expressed explicit consent to proceed (hence, not rape). Simple as that. This is a point which the dissenters have not yet addressed (why do I have the distinct feeling that they will continue to ignore this point?).
6. You are foolish if you believe that the world can be changed by posting on these forums...a point which I know most rational SDNers are aware of, with a few obvious exceptions. However, I must say that without these select few "exceptions", these forums would not be as entertaining. I certainly have enjoyed the laughs and, yes, even the occasional tear!!! Please keep on posting!

I guess that will suffice for now. Respond if you wish. However, do so at your own risk. I refuse to assume responsibility for where this thread will take us and please do remember, the trolls will come!

Into the abyss we go...

Force is not always done at knife or gun point. Threats about not getting the job if you don't take this exam, (how many times do I need to say that), any form of intimidation/coercion is force pal. It's blackmail, it's illegal and it's a lawsuit. And don't forget sexual harrassment. Every company has laws against it. How could you say "no doctor" is forcing the patient to consent? No reputable doctor forces anything, but not all are reputable. That's a point you are continue to ignore. And not every woman showing up at the clinic/hospital is there for a pelvic exam! You are too narrow minded and you need to expand your conscience a little bit.

These forums are not meant to change the world, they are for the purpose expressing an opinion. They also are informative.

 

[Skoundrel]

jvarga, well said. Janice why do you always say the same exact thing.

 

[concord]

you seem to be making a point that is very generalized, is it about society in general, or about doctors, or about ob/gyn docs. this coercion you talk about (I dont know your story, but you seem to have made a neg. impression on many a reader) is it something you have experianced personaly, because I am seeing your name everywere that ther is a anti-male ob/gyn thread. What is your solution have a police officer at every doctors appointment in case a pelvic exam is ordered. WHAT WAS YOUR EXPERIANCE! I am sorry but Javarga is absolutly correct! I have met no ptS. that would go TO A GYN DOC FOR A CHECK UP AND BE SHOCKED WHEN A PELVIC EXAM WAS DONE, THAT IS WHAT THEY ARE GOING FOR. iF YOU GOT A PELVIC EXAM DONE BY YOUR OPTHAMOLOGIST THAN YES, YOU SHOULD BE CALLING THE POLICE AND THE AMA AND YOUR PHYCIATRIST TO FIGURE OUT WHY YOU CONCENTED TO THE EXAM. should a psyologist be at all ob/gyn exams to review the chart to make sure the pt. is mentaly competent to decide on such an issue and make sure the pt. is not being coerced into concenting.

sorry for being harsh but I am sick of this unsubstantiated issue of men in ob/gyn, and pelvic exams in general. If you want to see only women ob gyn docs or you don't want to see ob/gyn docs at all, than fine !

PS. you don't see any men complaining about the fact that we have to have a finger shoved up our anus every year, is it realy that much different?

 

[Janice]

you seem to be making a point that is very generalized, is it about society in general, or about doctors, or about ob/gyn docs. this coercion you talk about (I dont know your story, but you seem to have made a neg. impression on many a reader) is it something you have experianced personaly, because I am seeing your name everywere that ther is a anti-male ob/gyn thread. What is your solution have a police officer at every doctors appointment in case a pelvic exam is ordered. WHAT WAS YOUR EXPERIANCE! I am sorry but Javarga is absolutly correct! I have met no ptS. that would go TO A GYN DOC FOR A CHECK UP AND BE SHOCKED WHEN A PELVIC EXAM WAS DONE, THAT IS WHAT THEY ARE GOING FOR. iF YOU GOT A PELVIC EXAM DONE BY YOUR OPTHAMOLOGIST THAN YES, YOU SHOULD BE CALLING THE POLICE AND THE AMA AND YOUR PHYCIATRIST TO FIGURE OUT WHY YOU CONCENTED TO THE EXAM. should a psyologist be at all ob/gyn exams to review the chart to make sure the pt. is mentaly competent to decide on such an issue and make sure the pt. is not being coerced into concenting.

sorry for being harsh but I am sick of this unsubstantiated issue of men in ob/gyn, and pelvic exams in general. If you want to see only women ob gyn docs or you don't want to see ob/gyn docs at all, than fine !

PS. you don't see any men complaining about the fact that we have to have a finger shoved up our anus every year, is it realy that much different?

They're only going for the gyn exam if that's why they are going. When going for a physical for employment/school no gyn exam is expected or required/mandated. Typically then, women don't go to a gyn doctor for employment/school physicals either. Even a gyn doctor doesn't need or have to do that exam for school/employment purposes.

In short, if a women isn't going for the gyn exam, she doesn't expect it to be done. Not even mentioned.

As for men not complaining, it might just be that a woman's fingers are smaller than a man's. (Less uncomfortable perhaps). Don't forget, a woman's body is quite naturally different than a man's, making probing of the vagina uncomfortable and even painful, unless great care is taken not to cause discomort/pain. That's not the case most of the time, as it is often taken for granted.

 

[concord]

why respond to my post if you have nothing to say, next time read my post befor you write a meaning less response

 

[starayamoskva]

making probing of the vagina uncomfortable and even painful, unless great care is taken not to cause discomort/pain. That's not the case most of the time, as it is often taken for granted.

The vagina is not some super delicate magical anatomic structure that must be handled with kid gloves lest it be completely destroyed. An exam hurts only if you are overly tense, suffer from vaginismus, have a rip roaring infection or some other pathology.
Consider for a moment the purpose of said vagina. It is intended as the receptacle for sperm via intercourse and for delivery of an infant. It is anatomically designed to accomodate 10 cm or greater in diameter objects, ie the infants head (much larger than any speculum) and the force of the average male (150-200 lbs) thrusting during copulation without undergoing damage.
That being said, I do understand that there are quite a few women out there who are extremely uptight and I do take great care when I do exams so as not to cause them an unpleasant experience. Sometimes it does in fact hurt, and unfortunately sometimes I have to cause discomfort/pain in order to do a thorough exam and accurately diagnose what is wrong.
If you come in to my ObGyn practice and request a physical be it for a job or anything else you had better expect to get a complete exam including a pelvic exam. If you refuse the pelvic exam that is your perogative, but if I fail to offer it I have committed malpractice and I am sure your lawyer wouldn't hesitate to name me in the lawsuit 5 years down the road when you have metastatic cervical cancer.

For the record, I am female, I will be an ObGyn and I prefer that my ObGyn be male, that is my preference it doesn't mean that it is everyone's preference. I do believe that everyone should have the option and if there are no more men going in to ObGyn then that option will dissappear in a few years.

 

[guanaco]

They're only going for the gyn exam if that's why they are going. When going for a physical for employment/school no gyn exam is expected or required/mandated. Typically then, women don't go to a gyn doctor for employment/school physicals either. Even a gyn doctor doesn't need or have to do that exam for school/employment purposes.

In short, if a women isn't going for the gyn exam, she doesn't expect it to be done. Not even mentioned.

As for men not complaining, it might just be that a woman's fingers are smaller than a man's. (Less uncomfortable perhaps). Don't forget, a woman's body is quite naturally different than a man's, making probing of the vagina uncomfortable and even painful, unless great care is taken not to cause discomort/pain. That's not the case most of the time, as it is often taken for granted.

Ok I think I see janice's point. What she is saying is that she doesn't understand why a woman should have a pelvic exam done when she is only going to get a physical exam for school/employment purposes at a GP's office.
However, when a woman goes to an Ob/Gyn, janice agrees that this woman should expect a pelvic exam.
Her position leads me to wonder if when she got a job at Taco bell, she was sent to get a physical and when she got to the GP's office, the first word she heard was " janice, drop your pants".

 

[minime]

Ok I think I see janice's point. What she is saying is that she doesn't understand why a woman should have a pelvic exam done when she is only going to get a physical exam for school/employment purposes at a GP's office.
However, when a woman goes to an Ob/Gyn, janice agrees that this woman should expect a pelvic exam.
Her position leads me to wonder if when she got a job at Taco bell, she was sent to get a physical and when she got to the GP's office, the first word she heard was " janice, drop your pants".

Actually, a school/employment physical is the perfect time to do a pelvic/pap considering most young people infrequently visit the doctor. At least the patient should be asked when their last one was and if it's time then go for it. Janice needs to realize that not every woman is so proud of her "tender" vagina as to let it rot away with cervical cancer.

Physicians don't use scare tactics so that we can look at vaginas. We do screenings which are backed up by much data that show that they reduce morbidity/mortality without any harm to the patient. End of Story.

 

[Janice]

Actually, a school/employment physical is the perfect time to do a pelvic/pap considering most young people infrequently visit the doctor. At least the patient should be asked when their last one was and if it's time then go for it. Janice needs to realize that not every woman is so proud of her "tender" vagina as to let it rot away with cervical cancer.

Physicians don't use scare tactics so that we can look at vaginas. We do screenings which are backed up by much data that show that they reduce morbidity/mortality without any harm to the patient. End of Story.

It's not about doing an exam because the doctor thinks that the patient needs it. The doctor doesn't call those shots. Whether you think so or not, a school or employment physical doesn't require/mandate a gyn exam and/or pap smear. Too many doctors don't do one for schools/employment. It is also considered inappropiate for those purposes. And oh yes, some doctors do use scare tactics, and whatever else to obtain submission to do the exam. Most often than not, when the gyn exam/pap smear is done for school/employment, it was likely done using less than ethical tactics. There is documentation to that fact. Check out obgyn.net.

 

[delchrys]

(1) starayamoskva: out of curiousity--why do you think it is that you prefer a male gyn?

(2) nothing wrong with male OB/GYNs, since women can choose who to see.

(3) something is very wrong with "teaching hospitals" that perform cervical exams pre-op on women when the people performing the exams are more than the attending and the main assist--some hospitals line up six med students for a freakin assembly line of cervical exams on anesthetised women who have not consented to such a thing.

bottom line: absence of consent = bad, consent = good.

 

[Sweet Tea]

bottom line: absence of consent = bad, consent = good.

i completely agree, but i have something to add:

letting old threads die peacefully without being kicked to death by trolls=fantastic

 

[delchrys]

i completely agree, but i have something to add:

letting old threads die peacefully without being kicked to death by trolls=fantastic

me?!? or janice?

::

 

[Sweet Tea]

me?!? or janice?

::

you're fine.

 

[juddson]

I'm afraid I am at a loss as to why the second post in this thread discusses coercion, force and blackmail.

Janice, is it your contention that OB/GYN's blackmale patients into pelvic exams?

Somebody needs to bring me up to speed on this one.

Judd

 

[Sweet Tea]

I'm afraid I am at a loss as to why the second post in this thread discusses coercion, force and blackmail.

Janice, is it your contention that OB/GYN's blackmale patients into pelvic exams?

Somebody needs to bring me up to speed on this one.

Judd

Janice is a troll that is best left alone...please let the thread die.