Will Trump win again???

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However, a more direct question for you is - why continue to attack the guy? The DOJ IG has stated that he was not a traitor. What did Page do to you that you’re going to keep perpetuating this lie on the internet? Did he run over your cat or something?

Just thank the guy for his service, move on, and let him rebuild his life for farksake.


3 years of CNN/MSNBS promoting a false narrative. It is hard to undo the systematic brainwashing that the liberal media has perpetuated.

The national socialists were able to brainwash an entire society to hate a group of religious people, but it didn't happen overnight. What you're witnessing with vector2 being unable to grasp reality is a sad example of the destruction that propaganda can have on a society.

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Obama was an unqualified president. He was young, inexperienced, and had slogans that didn't translate to effective legislation or military leadership. His presidency was run by idiots that thought it was a good day to get the USA into Libya and Syria, but out of Iraq, Asia, Ukraine, and Iran.

Obama allowed Russia to interfere in American elections.

Obama brought us the beauty of Obamacare that is pushing us all toward socialized medicine.

Obama decided it was a good idea to spy on a rival's presidential campaign.

Obama thought it was a good idea to use the IRS as a political campaign tool to suppress his opposition.

Obama thought it was a good idea to give guns to Mexican cartels to be used to murder American citizens and innocent Mexicans.

Obama thought it was a good idea to have an immigration policy that involved caging children and not fixing the policy before he left office.

Obama thought it was a good idea to get us out of a recession by crippling small businesses with onerous regulations.


Obama's presidency was one of the worst in the history of the United States.


Trump has been successful in:

Strengthening NATO by requiring members to live up to their funding obligations

Facilitating and presiding over the strongest economy in US history

Confronting China and Russia and Iran and North Korea simultaneously

Rebuilding the US military

Actually trying to reform the immigration system and securing the border.


Trump is just a better president than Obama despite only graduating from Wharton, and affirmative action diplomas didn't make Obama a smart guy. Was W magically smarter because he had legacy diplomas?

What are affirmative action diplomas?
 
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I've read the summary pages. Have you?

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As I said, it's pure speculation about whether the agency is in fact the CIA, if so how was he recruited to the CIA (patriotic volunteer vs. flipped because he was committing a crime), and the duration for which he was working for a government agency. You stated earlier flat out he had no real Russia ties and was essentially CIA agent from 2000-2013 which is full of assumptions/speculation and a ridiculous mischaracterization.

I don't give two figs about Carter Page other than his pertinence to the fact that multiple Trump associates have multiple Russian intertwinings (and numerous ones out of this group are in jail), and therefore the IG found that the origins of the Russia investigation had probable cause and were unbiased.

Page has verified that he was a CIA asset. That is not speculation. Do you think he is was lying and the OGA mentioned in the report is some other agency that conducts foreign espionage? What would that agency be?

Also, I’ve read the summary and the actual sections on the Page FISA warrant. In those sections, the IG makes it abundantly clear that all of the evidence that Page was working for the Russians was fabricated. If Page was a Russian sympathizer, why the need to fabricate evidence.

As for my statements, you need to re-read my post 6137 because I never said anything about Page having no ties to the Russians. Of course he had ties, he was a CIA asset. I said the notion of him being a Russian sympathizer was horseshoe!t; it’s speculation but forth by people needing a narrative.
 
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Page has verified that he was a CIA asset. That is not speculation. Do you think he is was lying and the OGA mentioned in the report is some other agency that conducts foreign espionage? What would that agency be?

Also, I’ve read the summary and the actual sections on the Page FISA warrant. In those sections, the IG makes it abundantly clear that all of the evidence that Page was working for the Russians was fabricated. If Page was a Russian sympathizer, why the need to fabricate evidence.

As for my statements, you need to re-read my post 6137 because I never said anything about Page having no ties to the Russians. Of course he had ties, he was a CIA asset. I said the notion of him being a Russian sympathizer was horseshoe!t; it’s speculation but forth by people needing a narrative.

This is tiresome. I didn't say he wasn't a CIA asset, I just said that you saying he is a CIA asset is speculation since neither the IG, nor the FBI nor the CIA has said as much. Page is going to say whatever he needs to to make himself look good, which is not a surprise because he's the same guy who said he was going to plead the 5th if compelled to testify before the Senate. The guy is a Russian sympathizer. Whether it was a CIA cover or not is unknown.
 
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What are affirmative action diplomas?
College acceptance which was granted based on something other than merit, talent, skill.

Affirmative action would be factoring in race to determine admission (Obama is half Caucasian and half African but his African part likely gave him an advantage over applicants who were 60% Caucasian).

Legacy action would be factoring in relatives, "donations", political power/clout (Chris Cuomo is as dumb as a box of rocks, and he graduated from Yale because of his father).
 
What's your point showing pictures of a few people wearing pro-Trump shirts? Are you trying to shame other Trump voters because some are less educated than you are? That they're poorer than you are? That they've suffered more in their lives than you have?
How do you know they suffered more, quite a presumption to make...
 
College acceptance which was granted based on something other than merit, talent, skill.

Affirmative action would be factoring in race to determine admission (Obama is half Caucasian and half African but his African part likely gave him an advantage over applicants who were 60% Caucasian).

Legacy action would be factoring in relatives, "donations", political power/clout (Chris Cuomo is as dumb as a box of rocks, and he graduated from Yale because of his father).

Ok.
Acceptance is different than a diploma so I was wondering what exactly you meant. So what you mean is that Obama got accepted in to college and law school because he is Black.

Do you think every Black person who gets accepted in to college or graduate school it is due to their race or your viewpoint is just specific to Barack Obama? Are your opinions the same for Michelle Obama?
 
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Ok.
Acceptance is different than a diploma so I was wondering what exactly you meant. So what you mean is that Obama got accepted in to college and law school because he is Black.

Do you think every Black person who gets accepted in to college or graduate school it is due to their race or your viewpoint is just specific to Barack Obama? Are your opinions the same for Michelle Obama?

George W Bush graduated from Harvard Business School.

Barack Obama graduated from Harvard Law School.


I don't see much difference in their accomplishments, either before school or after school. It doesn't matter to me which route they went through to get through an elite school, greased either via institutional racism or institutional grift. They were mediocre presidents with 8 years each, defined by periods of time, not by leadership action or actual new ideas. What is Hope and Change other than empty campaign slogans? What was Bush's, restoring dignity to the oval office?


Michelle Obama got her job at the University of Chicago hospital because of her name and her husband, no question about it.
 
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We are reaching critical mass. People are not going to just sit quietly in a corner while Schiff & Company cheat, lie, and attempt to burn our country to the ground. When the public finds out that the FBI was also using illegal FISA warrants to spy on then-candidate Ted Cruz, I think a few more people will wake up and smell the coffee.

 
George W Bush graduated from Harvard Business School.

Barack Obama graduated from Harvard Law School.


I don't see much difference in their accomplishments, either before school or after school. It doesn't matter to me which route they went through to get through an elite school, greased either via institutional racism or institutional grift. They were mediocre presidents with 8 years each, defined by periods of time, not by leadership action or actual new ideas. What is Hope and Change other than empty campaign slogans? What was Bush's, restoring dignity to the oval office?


Michelle Obama got her job at the University of Chicago hospital because of her name and her husband, no question about it.
Please - Princeton undergrad and HLS speaks for itself, and by itself, would more than qualify for such a position—and in fact, some would argue she was over-qualified.
 
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Kevin Clinesmith, FBI attorney who altered email to purposefully implicate Carter Page, was a graduate of Georgetown LS (Swamp Central). I guess he is another one of those superior intellect, over-achieving elites that we're all supposed to just bow down to and follow like little sheep. Interesting how they all appear to be void of morals and believe they are themselves above the law.

FBI deliberately hid Carter Page’s patriotic role as CIA asset, IG report shows

"Making a reference to his role in Crossfire Hurricane, Mr. Clinesmith said, 'Plus, my god damned name is all over the legal documents investigating his staff.'"
Is this something a highly intelligent person would (willingly) do? It does seem like something an immoral, lying, cheating, arrogant, "above the law" swamp creature would do. You still think Deep State is just a euphemism?
 
Please - Princeton undergrad and HLS speaks for itself, and by itself, would more than qualify for such a position—and in fact, some would argue she was over-qualified.

Nothing speaks for itself. What were her SAT score, LSAT, and GPA? If she’s is near or above average for all of those, then good on her. If not...
 
Nothing speaks for itself. What were her SAT score, LSAT, and GPA? If she’s is near or above average for all of those, then good on her. If not...
Will given that she graduated cum laude from Princeton one can safely surmise her undergrad GPA was between 3.7 and 3.8. Further, if you were to look through top-law-schools.com, you would find that even if we take the lowest 25 percent of accepted admissions at HLS, one would still have a LSAT of 168 or about the 96th percentile.
 
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Nothing speaks for itself. What were her SAT score, LSAT, and GPA? If she’s is near or above average for all of those, then good on her. If not...
Further, she graduated number two in her very well regarded magnet high school in Chicago and worked initItaly out of HLS at the rather conservative Sidley Austin and I can assure that they would have never hired her unless she was at least in the top half of her class.
 
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Further, she graduated number two in her very well regarded magnet high school in Chicago and worked initItaly out of HLS at the rather conservative Sidley Austin and I can assure that they would have never hired her unless she was at least in the top half of her class.

sounds pretty solid. It’d be nice to see the numbers, for Barack and W and Trump too.

Like I said earlier, a thousand or so posts back in this thread, legacy preference is worse than AA though both are wrong
 
sounds pretty solid. It’d be nice to see the numbers, for Barack and W and Trump too.

Like I said earlier, a thousand or so posts back in this thread, legacy preference is worse than AA though both are wrong
You should be highlighting how Jared got into undergrad and law school- hint the school now has his family name on its respective building.
 
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The second link is depressing: most *****s don't change their minds even when presented with facts; they just let the politicians and the media (especially Faux News) brainwash them into whatever they want.

While the Ukraine call can be debated, I don't think the president has one leg to stand on regarding the second article of impeachment: Obstruction of Congress.

"President Trump abused the powers of his high office through the following means:
(1) Directing the White House to defy a lawful subpoena by withholding the production of documents sought therein by the Committees.
(2) Directing other Executive Branch agencies and offices to defy lawful subpoenas and withhold the production of documents and records from the Committees—in response to which the Department of State, Office of Management and Budget, Department of Energy, and Department of Defense refused to produce a single document or record.
(3) Directing current and former Executive Branch officials not to cooperate with the Committees—in response to which nine Administration officials defied subpoenas for testimony, namely John Michael ‘‘Mick’’ Mulvaney, Robert B.Blair, John A. Eisenberg, Michael Ellis, Preston Wells Griffith, Russell T.
Vought, Michael Duffey, Brian McCormack, and T. Ulrich Brechbuhl.

These actions were consistent with President Trump’s previous efforts to undermine United States Government investigations into foreign interference in United States election."

This is what Nixon was impeached for. Reciprocal checks and balances are what this country is built upon, because otherwise nobody watches the watchers and we get a dictatorship. I haven't seen this level of political corruption since I left my native country; those who support it have no excuse for spitting on the Constitution whenever it's convenient.
 
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The second link is depressing: most *****s don't change their minds even when presented with facts; they just let the politicians and the media (especially Faux News) brainwash them into whatever they want.

While the Ukraine call can be debated, I don't think the president has one leg to stand on regarding the second article of impeachment: Obstruction of Congress.

"President Trump abused the powers of his high office through the following means:
(1) Directing the White House to defy a lawful subpoena by withholding the production of documents sought therein by the Committees.
(2) Directing other Executive Branch agencies and offices to defy lawful subpoenas and withhold the production of documents and records from the Committees—in response to which the Department of State, Office of Management and Budget, Department of Energy, and Department of Defense refused to produce a single document or record.
(3) Directing current and former Executive Branch officials not to cooperate with the Committees—in response to which nine Administration officials defied subpoenas for testimony, namely John Michael ‘‘Mick’’ Mulvaney, Robert B.Blair, John A. Eisenberg, Michael Ellis, Preston Wells Griffith, Russell T.
Vought, Michael Duffey, Brian McCormack, and T. Ulrich Brechbuhl.

These actions were consistent with President Trump’s previous efforts to undermine United States Government investigations into foreign interference in United States election."

This is what Nixon was impeached for. Reciprocal checks and balances are what this country is built upon, because otherwise nobody watches the watchers and we get a dictatorship. I haven't seen this level of political corruption since I left my native country; those who support it have no excuse for spitting on the Constitution whenever it's convenient.

The Executive Branch doesn't serve at the behest of the Legislative and vice versa. When there are conflicts, we have an entirely different branch of government to deal with this. If the courts ruled that executive privilege doesn't apply here and everyone has to testify and still they don't because Trump says no, that would be obstruction. If the Democrats really felt this was going to be fruitful, they'd take it to the courts, instead it's full speed ahead.

Did you have your pitchfork out when Obama used executive privilege in regards to Holder and the "Fast and Furious" stuff?

This entire thing sets a terrible precedent. It's only a matter of time before we have a President of one party impeached and removed by the opposition party using this criteria for impeachment
 
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The Executive Branch doesn't serve at the behest of the Legislative and vice versa. When there are conflicts, we have an entirely different branch of government to deal with this. If the courts ruled that executive privilege doesn't apply here and everyone has to testify and still they don't because Trump says no, that would be obstruction. If the Democrats really felt this was going to be fruitful, they'd take it to the courts, instead it's full speed ahead.

Did you have your pitchfork out when Obama used executive privilege in regards to Holder and the "Fast and Furious" stuff?

This entire thing sets a terrible precedent. It's only a matter of time before we have a President of one party impeached and removed by the opposition party using this criteria for impeachment
1. I am not at all happy about Obama's (or anybody else's) executive orders either, especially acts of war without approval from Congress.

2. Given the nature of the subpoena, i.e. impeachment, any pretense of "executive privilege" is a joke.

In US v. Nixon, "The Supreme Court stated: "To read the Article II powers of the president as providing an absolute privilege as against a subpoena essential to enforcement of criminal statutes on no more than a generalized claim of the public interest in confidentiality of nonmilitary and nondiplomatic discussions would upset the constitutional balance of 'a workable government' and gravely impair the role of the courts under Article III." Because Nixon had asserted only a generalized need for confidentiality, the Court held that the larger public interest in obtaining the truth in the context of a criminal prosecution took precedence." (Source: Wikipedia)

Trump and the republicans are playing political games. They know that taking the subpoena issue to the Supreme Court would delay things by about 6 months, giving them time to further slander the democrats. Even just the issue of Trump's tax returns took almost a month to be taken up, and another three till the Court will start the hearings (in March).

Only the blind can't see the obstruction of justice here. Let's not mention the speaker coordinating with the White House, in direct violation of the oath he'll have to take for the impeachment trial:
"I solemnly swear [or affirm, as the case may be] that in all things appertaining to the trial of the impeachment of [the person being impeached], now pending, I will do impartial justice according to the Constitution and laws: So help me God."

Draining the swamp, my behind... They are the Swamp.
 
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The second link is depressing: most *****s don't change their minds even when presented with facts; they just let the politicians and the media (especially Faux News) brainwash them into whatever they want.

While the Ukraine call can be debated, I don't think the president has one leg to stand on regarding the second article of impeachment: Obstruction of Congress.

"President Trump abused the powers of his high office through the following means:
(1) Directing the White House to defy a lawful subpoena by withholding the production of documents sought therein by the Committees.
(2) Directing other Executive Branch agencies and offices to defy lawful subpoenas and withhold the production of documents and records from the Committees—in response to which the Department of State, Office of Management and Budget, Department of Energy, and Department of Defense refused to produce a single document or record.
(3) Directing current and former Executive Branch officials not to cooperate with the Committees—in response to which nine Administration officials defied subpoenas for testimony, namely John Michael ‘‘Mick’’ Mulvaney, Robert B.Blair, John A. Eisenberg, Michael Ellis, Preston Wells Griffith, Russell T.
Vought, Michael Duffey, Brian McCormack, and T. Ulrich Brechbuhl.

These actions were consistent with President Trump’s previous efforts to undermine United States Government investigations into foreign interference in United States election."

This is what Nixon was impeached for. Reciprocal checks and balances are what this country is built upon, because otherwise nobody watches the watchers and we get a dictatorship. I haven't seen this level of political corruption since I left my native country; those who support it have no excuse for spitting on the Constitution whenever it's convenient.
Not trying to be difficult, but Nixon was not impeached. He was going to be impeached, but resigned before the House could formally impeach him. They had the votes to do so.Just trying to be accurate. He didnt want to put the country through this divisive process. Note the last 2 guys Clinton and Trump, didnt seem to consider this point. To avoid this, impeachment should be bi partisan and actual crimes committed, IMO, Dems should have gone to the courts for obtaining documents and witnesses. Then the Obstruction charge would stick better in voters eyes. I think Censure would have been a better option with the evidence in hand. I understand Impeachment is a political process, but this rush to impeach prior to the election, not going through the courts, and no real crime of collusion or obstruction proven yet, really appears to be just that. This is why 50% of voters in most polls dont approve. All prior Impeachments had evidence of a crime and in Clinton's case, the vote wasnt overwhelming for impeachment if my memory is accurate. This whole impeachment process will spillover into President Trump's 2nd term and we will be treated to several new impeachment hearings if the House remains in Democrat control. I believe a dangerous precedent has been set and we will see this in future elections when the Party of the President isnt the same as the party controlling the House. Our Framers warned of this. Judt my opinion.
 
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3 equal but separate branches of government.

‘Obstruction of Congress’ is an utterly ridiculous impeachment charge

Personally, I would love for it to go to a Senate trial. THAT would be good TV! Hell, I'd even take the train to DC in hopes of sitting in the gallery for that historic ****show. (A friend of a friend was sitting right behind Strzok during his hearing, and I asked, "How'd it feel to be so close to a legit psychopath?") But, no need for this to go to a Senate trial. Declas will settle this for all to see. #ImpeachmentHoax
 
Not trying to be difficult, but Nixon was not impeached. He was going to be impeached, but resigned before the House could formally impeach him. They had the votes to do so.Just trying to be accurate. He didnt want to put the country through this divisive process. Note the last 2 guys Clinton and Trump, didnt seem to consider this point. To avoid this, impeachment should be bi partisan and actual crimes committed, IMO, Dems should have gone to the courts for obtaining documents and witnesses. Then the Obstruction charge would stick better in voters eyes. I think Censure would have been a better option with the evidence in hand. I understand Impeachment is a political process, but this rush to impeach prior to the election, not going through the courts, and no real crime of collusion or obstruction proven,l yet, really appears to be just that. This is why 50% of voters in most polls dont approve. All prior Impeachments had evidence of a crime and in Clinton's case, the vote wasnt overwhelming for impeachment if my memory is accurate. This whole impeachment process will spillover into President Trump's 2nd term and we will be treated to several new impeachment hearings if the House remains in Democrat control. I believe a dangerous precedent has been set and we will see this in future elections when the Party of the President isnt the same as the party controlling the House. Our Framers warned of this.
There is a crime. It's obstruction of Congress (and of justice) all the time (the Ukraine call is just the frosting on the cake). Congress has the right to investigate a president for a possible criminal behavior. There is no executive privilege for that (see above). The way he's been trying to influence witnesses is unheard of in any democracy. He's a disgrace to the Constitution and the country. I am sorry you can't see it. I have no doubts.

He's a petty lying malignant narcissist bully, with sociopathic tendencies, who has no respect for the Constitution and for the Law. I wouldn't let a person of his character in my house, let alone in the white one.

Still I believe it's better for our democracy if the voters remove him. He needs to be impeached without a lot of fuss (his behavior is way beyond censoring), then if the Senate doesn't remove him, the voters should remove both him and the respective senators.
 
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1. I am not at all happy about Obama's (or anybody else's) executive orders either, especially acts of war without approval from Congress.

2. Given the nature of the subpoena, i.e. impeachment, any pretense of "executive privilege" is a joke.

In US v. Nixon, "The Supreme Court stated: "To read the Article II powers of the president as providing an absolute privilege as against a subpoena essential to enforcement of criminal statutes on no more than a generalized claim of the public interest in confidentiality of nonmilitary and nondiplomatic discussions would upset the constitutional balance of 'a workable government' and gravely impair the role of the courts under Article III." Because Nixon had asserted only a generalized need for confidentiality, the Court held that the larger public interest in obtaining the truth in the context of a criminal prosecution took precedence." (Source: Wikipedia)

Trump and the republicans are playing political games. They know that taking the subpoena issue to the Supreme Court would delay things by about 6 months, giving them time to further slander the democrats. Even just the issue of Trump's tax returns took almost a month to be taken up, and another three till the Court will start the hearings (in March).

Only the blind can't see the obstruction of justice here. Let's not mention the speaker coordinating with the White House, in direct violation of the oath he'll have to take for the impeachment trial:
"I solemnly swear [or affirm, as the case may be] that in all things appertaining to the trial of the impeachment of [the person being impeached], now pending, I will do impartial justice according to the Constitution and laws: So help me God."

Draining the swamp, my behind... They are the Swamp.

We're going to have to agree to disagree. Whether you like it or not, the Executive Branch can do this. It doesn't matter what you or I or anyone else feels about it. The argument that there's not enough time shouldn't be prohibitive of whether the courts are asked to adjudicate, especially in light of Trump very likely getting another term.
 
A brief clarification/tutorial on the elements and context of obstruction of justice:

The White House refused to cooperate in the inquiry, blocking witness testimony and document turnover. Key individuals who refused to comply with the inquiry include Vice President Mike Pence, Secretary of State Mike Pompeo, Acting White House Chief of Staff Mick Mulvaney, former National Security Adviser John Bolton, Energy Secretary Rick Perry, Acting Director of the Office of Management and Budget Russell Vought, and Rudy Giuliani. Other White House officials who have also refused to testify include National Security Council lawyers John Eisenberg and Michael Ellis; Mulvaney adviser Robert Blair; and Brian McCormack, the associate director for natural resources, energy, and science at the Office of Management and Budget. Additionally, as specified in the report, the White House, the Office of the Vice President, the Office of Management and Budget, the Department of State, the Department of Defense and the Department of Energy failed to produce any documents in response to “71 specific, individualized requests or demands for records in their possession, custody, or control.”

A refusal to cooperate is a matter of stated policy. On Oct. 8, White House Counsel Pat Cipollone wrote a letter in response to a House subpoenainforming the leaders of the inquiry that President Trump and members of his administration would not participate in the inquiry “under any circumstances.” Cipollone argued that the inquiry is unconstitutional and violates due process, and that it is seeking to invalidate the 2016 election and influence the 2020 election.

So, witnesses can refuse to comply with a congressional subpoena only if they have a valid privilege protecting their testimony. Cipollone’s letter did not assert any privilege. And without one, the refusal to engage the committee has a small problem: two federal obstruction of justice statutes.
First, 18 U.S.C. § 1505, provides that “[w]hoever corruptly, or by threats or force, or by any threatening letter or communication influences, obstructs, or impedes or endeavors to influence, obstruct, or impede ... the due and proper exercise of the power of inquiry under which any inquiry or investigation is being had by either House, or any committee of either House or any joint committee of the Congress” shall face criminal consequences. Second, 18 U.S.C. § 1512(c)(2) broadly prohibits corruptly obstructing, influencing or impeding any “official proceeding”—defined to include a proceeding before Congress.

Given the text of the two laws in question, it is worth asking why people seem so unafraid of vulnerability under them, even in flouting their apparent terms so openly.
One reason may be that the current Justice Department is most unlikely to contemplate an obstruction case against anyone for stiffing a congressional committee in the context of the impeachment investigation.

By their terms, these statutes seem to cover both the White House’s conduct and the conduct of the witnesses who are not showing up. And the congressional inquiry committees agree that the conduct is obstructive. The House adopted a resolution guiding the impeachment inquiry, which provided that if the president blocked witnesses from testifying or refused to produce documents, “the chair shall have the discretion to impose appropriate remedies, including by denying specific requests by the President or his counsel under these procedures to call or question witnesses.” The House Intelligence Committee then devoted half of its report to detailing the obstructive conduct, listing all the ways in which executive officials refused to comply with the inquiry.

In short, this is a long way of saying that there is continuing debate regarding whether a president can be charged under the obstruction statutes, despite the apparent application of their prohibitions to the facts at hand in the impeachment inquiry. This very ambiguity might inhibit a prosecutor from going after Trump on this point. But this does not answer the question of whether individuals who are not the president—such as Giuliani, Mulvaney, Pompeo and Cipollone—could have a problem. I find the later very problematic as do most attorneys...
 
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We're going to have to agree to disagree. Whether you like it or not, the Executive Branch can do this. It doesn't matter what you or I or anyone else feels about it. The argument that there's not enough time shouldn't be prohibitive of whether the courts are asked to adjudicate, especially in light of Trump very likely getting another term.
As I said, these are political games for the hoi polloi. Legally, they don't have a leg to stand on, once the house has started impeachment proceedings.
 
There is a crime. It's obstruction of Congress (and of justice) all the time (the Ukraine call is just the frosting on the cake). Congress has the right to investigate a president for a possible criminal behavior. There is no executive privilege for that (see above). The way he's been trying to influence witnesses is unheard of in any democracy. He's a disgrace to the Constitution and the country. I am sorry you can't see it. I have no doubts.

He's a petty lying malignant narcissist bully, with sociopathic tendencies, who has no respect for the Constitution and for the Law. I wouldn't let a person of his character in my house, let alone in the white one.

Still I believe it's better for our democracy if the voters remove him. He needs to be impeached without a lot of fuss (his behavior is way beyond censoring), then if the Senate doesn't remove him, the voters should remove both him and the respective senators.

Wholeheartedly agree with this--although you follow it up with saying the Senate should remove?

Using broad impeachment charges without a crime to impeach a President is going to lead to a **** show.

It's also really troublesome that several of the major Democrats are already calling him illegitimate if he's elected again.
 
Wholeheartedly agree with this--although you follow it up with saying the Senate should remove?

Using broad impeachment charges without a crime to impeach a President is going to lead to a **** show.

It's also really troublesome that several of the major Democrats are already calling him illegitimate if he's elected again.
Yes, the Senate should, if they had a spine (and loved the Constitution more than their own well-being). But we all know that they won't. That's why there is no reason to waste more time on this political charade.

From where I stand, the democrats did their duty, the Congressional republicans are traitors to this country. And, again, this is from a person who's been leaning republican in many things. After the last few years, I will not vote for a republican, in national elections, for a long time.

If Trump is re-elected, without the Russians and other foreign powers, he'll be a legitimate president. That doesn't mean that Americans have to like him.
 
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Bloomberg’s Surveillance Of Muslims Sets Dangerous Precedent For His Presidential Run

Huff Post throwing Bloomberg under the bus.
It's kind of entertaining to watch this train wreck in real time.
I admit I'm baffled by Bloomberg running. The only thing the various factions of the Democrat party seem to have in common right now is contempt for billionaires. Hard to see how Bloomberg gets any traction with them. Some candidates run for president because even a failed bid furthers their local goals. For example Harris, who surely knew all along she didn't have a snowball's chance in hell of winning, nevertheless benefited from a bunch of fundraising and time on the stage. Her failed presidential campaign will pay dividends for her in California for a long time to come. But what does Bloomberg stand to gain from losing? I don't get it.

Then again, as much as I dislike the guy, I have to admit he's a smart person who listens to data. He wouldn't be doing this if he didn't see some path through it. It'd be foolish to dismiss his chances at this point. Obnoxious outsider billionaires have surprised us before.
 
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As I said, these are political games for the hoi polloi. Legally, they don't have a leg to stand on, once the house has started impeachment proceedings.

So I take this to mean that whenever the House is not of the President's party, they can "open impeachment proceedings" the day they're sworn in and use all their investigative powers to attempt to find an impeachable offense to remove a duly elected President? I just don't agree with that at all, especially with how polarized our country is.

Republicans could take the House next year and Warren win the General. Republicans then open impeachment proceedings and subpoena literally everything from her education and employment history, looking for an impeachable offense surrounding declaring herself Native American for 40 years. They'll undoubtedly find something that isn't kosher and impeach and remove her. This is all dangerous territory. You can make the similar examples with all the major candidates.
 
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So I take this to mean that whenever the House is not of the President's party, they can "open impeachment proceedings" the day they're sworn in and use all their investigative powers to attempt to find an impeachable offense to remove a duly elected President? I just don't agree with that at all, especially with how polarized our country is.

Republicans could take the House next year and Warren win the General. Republicans then open impeachment proceedings and subpoena literally everything from her education and employment history, looking for an impeachable offense surrounding declaring herself Native American for 40 years. They'll undoubtedly find something that isn't kosher and impeach and remove her. This is all dangerous territory. You can make the similar examples with all the major candidates.
I don't agree with these either. But I totally agree that they can subpoena people when things smell fishy in the White House (acts of the president while being president). The federal government has become too powerful and needs a strong counterbalance, otherwise we'll end up with more corruption.

In the British system, the prime-minister answers Parliament's questions once a week. He actually spends part of his Wednesdays doing that (instead of "executive time"). This president doesn't even give a proper press conference anymore, Gods forbid he's asked uncomfortable questions. This is not how a democratic president behaves. Without the "deep state", we would/will have a dictator. Checks and balances are essential for a democracy.
 
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So I take this to mean that whenever the House is not of the President's party, they can "open impeachment proceedings" the day they're sworn in and use all their investigative powers to attempt to find an impeachable offense to remove a duly elected President? I just don't agree with that at all, especially with how polarized our country is.

Republicans could take the House next year and Warren win the General. Republicans then open impeachment proceedings and subpoena literally everything from her education and employment history, looking for an impeachable offense surrounding declaring herself Native American for 40 years. They'll undoubtedly find something that isn't kosher and impeach and remove her. This is all dangerous territory. You can make the similar examples with all the major candidates.
Rs are just not taking the house, they are losing additional seats next year....
 
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I think Bloomberg's supporters have realized that the other candidates don't have high chances to beat Trump, but Bloomberg's achievements, especially in business, would dwarf Trump, especially among non-democrats. Bloomberg will get a lot of moderate votes.
I don't see him earning a lot of non-Democrat votes. There might be a million people who could beat Trump in the general election, but there aren't a million people who can get through the Democratic primary. I just don't see how he even gets a shot at Trump.

He has a long history of spending lots of money to influence elections, with some success. Maybe his plan here isn't to win, but to steer the discussion a little. But if he wants a more moderate nominee than Warren or Sanders, he's not helping that happen by siphoning votes away from Biden or Buttigieg. I don't get it.
 
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Continuing my point: twenty former Republican lawmakers, officials and legal experts are urging a federal appeals court to reject President Donald Trump’s claim that his former White House counsel, Don McGahn, can ignore a House subpoena.

The slate of prominent GOP figures is arguing that the country’s founders did not intend for presidents and their advisers to enjoy such untrammeled authority to reject congressional oversight. House Democrats are pushing for McGahn to testify about episodes that special counsel Robert Mueller investigated as potential obstruction of justice.

While many right-leaning lawyers like Attorney General Bill Barr have asserted that the founders’ view of the Constitution mandates an expansive, muscular view of executive authority and executive privilege, the new friend-of-the-court brief argues that a truly “originalist” view of the showdown calls for the courts to force McGahn to appear, especially given the ongoing impeachment fight.

“The idea that a president and his current and former advisors enjoy absolute immunity from subpoena — particularly during impeachment proceedings — finds no support in early American practice,” the GOP ex-officials contend. “During the early republic, Congresses and presidents recognized that Congress had nearly untrammeled authority to request documents and testimony to support impeachment proceedings.”

Signed on to the brief are several prominent former lawmakers, including former Sen. Gordon Humphrey (R-N.H.), and ex-Reps. Mickey Edwards (R-Okla.) and Jim Leach (R-Iowa). Former Justice Department official Stuart Gerson and prominent conservative lawyer George Conway are also among those asking the D.C. Circuit Court of Appeals to endorse Congress’s right to question senior executive branch officials about potential misconduct.

“Placing the president and his aides above the law would be truly un-American. Early U.S. Congresses and courts subpoenaed presidents, and the presidents complied with those subpoenas. That should remain the case today,” said another signer, former Rep. Reid Ribble (R-Wis.).


Other signers on the GOP lawyers’ brief include former Reps. Steve Bartlett of Texas, Jack Buechner and Thomas Coleman of Missouri, Bob Inglis of South Carolina, Jim Kolbe of Arizona, Steven Kuykendall of California, Mike Parker of Mississippi, Thomas Petri of Wisconsin, Peter Smith of Vermont and Dick Zimmer of New Jersey.
The brief also has the support of ex-Federal Election Commission Chairman Trevor Potter, former Justice Department official Jonathan Rose, former Homeland Security official Paul Rosenzweig and George Mason law professor J.W. Verret.
 
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I don't see him earning a lot of non-Democrat votes. There might be a million people who could beat Trump in the general election, but there aren't a million people who can get through the Democratic primary. I just don't see how he even gets a shot at Trump.

He has a long history of spending lots of money to influence elections, with some success. Maybe his plan here isn't to win, but to steer the discussion a little. But if he wants a more moderate nominee than Warren or Sanders, he's not helping that happen by siphoning votes away from Biden or Buttigieg. I don't get it.
Bloomberg is in the race to serve 2 purposes: 1) Cash cow-He will spend $$$ on anti-Trump ads, which will help any Dem, and 2) To manipulate the press-His Bloomberg news will not report negatively on him or any other Dem, but they will trash talk Trump. I predict that their "anonymous sources" will be quoted by all fake news outlets.

A 3rd possible reason for Bloomberg to run is to try to delay/avoid criminal investigations of himself. Using the Ukraine Hoax as a playbook, the Dems and MSM can easily cry "Trump is interfering with the 2020 election" if Bloomberg is under investigation and/or charged with a crime. (Do you really think it's possible to get THAT rich playing by all the rules? And, he was mayor of swampy NYC/SDNY. What do you think the chances are that he is squeaky clean?) It is for this reason that I also think it's not out of the realm of possibility for HRC to throw her dirty little hat into the ring. Not because she has ANY chance to win, but to use her candidacy as a shield.
 
Bloomberg is in the race to serve 2 purposes: 1) Cash cow-He will spend $$$ on anti-Trump ads, which will help any Dem, and 2) To manipulate the press-His Bloomberg news will not report negatively on him or any other Dem, but they will trash talk Trump. I predict that their "anonymous sources" will be quoted by all fake news outlets.

A 3rd possible reason for Bloomberg to run is to try to delay/avoid criminal investigations of himself. Using the Ukraine Hoax as a playbook, the Dems and MSM can easily cry "Trump is interfering with the 2020 election" if Bloomberg is under investigation and/or charged with a crime. (Do you really think it's possible to get THAT rich playing by all the rules? And, he was mayor of swampy NYC/SDNY. What do you think the chances are that he is squeaky clean?) It is for this reason that I also think it's not out of the realm of possibility for HRC to throw her dirty little hat into the ring. Not because she has ANY chance to win, but to use her candidacy as a shield.
Such BS: your assertion is based on innuendo, speculation and not a single submission of a substantive fact, not a single one. He founded and leads a publicly traded company, one that transformed the financial services industry, much in the way Apple transformed personal computing or Tesla to the automotive sector—and as such, his return is quite profound. Further, he comes under the daily scrutiny of the SEC as well as shareholders and a board—unlike Trump who could never succeed on such a large and innovative scale that employs tens of thousands. Yet, your pithy exercise to attack with baseless innuendo and not a man who has five gigantic bankruptcies, four kids from three wives and is a known *****-monger.
 
If a man says "Yeah, I'm not campaigning in Iowa or New Hampshire. I don't have time for that," it is logical to think that he's not really that into becoming President. Therefore, he is in the race for other purposes. Then when he announces his ad budget and manipulation of the media, it all comes into focus just a little bit better.

The part about Bloomberg's candidacy shielding him from possible criminal investigation is my speculation, but he'd only be following in Biden's footsteps. I mean, does anyone really think that hairy-legged, Corn Pop nemesis, senile, creepy, quid pro Joe, has a chance in hell of beating Trump? :rofl:(Hold on. Let me catch my breath.) So...why is Biden running?:unsure:
 
If a man says "Yeah, I'm not campaigning in Iowa or New Hampshire. I don't have time for that," it is logical to think that he's not really that into becoming President. Therefore, he is in the race for other purposes. Then when he announces his ad budget and manipulation of the media, it all comes into focus just a little bit better.
That's not any different than any other PAC money spent on ads. If all he wanted to do was funnel money into anti-Trump ads, he wouldn't need to be a candidate to do it.

And if you want to ascribe nefarious motives to him, wouldn't he be better off supporting candidates who might later be in a position to return the favor, rather than crapping all over their campaigns as he runs himself?

The part about Bloomberg's candidacy shielding him from possible criminal investigation is my speculation

"Speculation"? It's straight up ridiculous, is what it is. A person who feared investigation for wrongdoing wouldn't set himself up to be the most scrutinized person on the planet.

I detest Bloomberg for a bunch of reasons but this is an absurd line of thought.

Do you actually think these things?
 
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If a man says "Yeah, I'm not campaigning in Iowa or New Hampshire. I don't have time for that," it is logical to think that he's not really that into becoming President. Therefore, he is in the race for other purposes. Then when he announces his ad budget and manipulation of the media, it all comes into focus just a little bit better.

The part about Bloomberg's candidacy shielding him from possible criminal investigation is my speculation, but he'd only be following in Biden's footsteps. I mean, does anyone really think that hairy-legged, Corn Pop nemesis, senile, creepy, quid pro Joe, has a chance in hell of beating Trump? :rofl:(Hold on. Let me catch my breath.) So...why is Biden running?:unsure:
You might want to add both veracity and perspective to your rather random assertions. So, you would take on a man who basically made tuition a non-issue at John Hopkins, all the way from undergraduate degrees to medical degrees with the largest donation in higher education history, at close to 2 billion dollars. Conversely, Trump, was actually considered to be under a investigation for a faux charity, in which he basically donated and/endowed nothing, took outside contributions and then used it pay his own bills.....please, you embarrass yourself.

What next, Bill Gates is part of the triads and Warren Buffett is rolling with the crips? Go back to your fanciful conspiracies of the Rothschilds’ running the global financial systems and controlling the weather.
 
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That's not any different than any other PAC money spent on ads. If all he wanted to do was funnel money into anti-Trump ads, he wouldn't need to be a candidate to do it.

And if you want to ascribe nefarious motives to him, wouldn't he be better off supporting candidates who might later be in a position to return the favor, rather than crapping all over their campaigns as he runs himself?

Who can and can't contribute - FEC.gov

As a candidate he has no limit to his spending.

"Speculation"? It's straight up ridiculous, is what it is. A person who feared investigation for wrongdoing wouldn't set himself up to be the most scrutinized person on the planet.

How do you explain HRC in 2016 and now Biden for 2020 exposing themselves to scutinity? They are as dirty as dirty gets. I guess when you've been above the law for so long, you forget how to be fearful? Normal behavior does not apply to these people. That would require them to have things like morality and conscience.

I detest Bloomberg for a bunch of reasons but this is an absurd line of thought.

Do you actually think these things? I believe everything, and nothing, all at the same time. ;)
 
A brief clarification/tutorial on the elements and context of obstruction of justice:

The White House refused to cooperate in the inquiry, blocking witness testimony and document turnover. Key individuals who refused to comply with the inquiry include Vice President Mike Pence, Secretary of State Mike Pompeo, Acting White House Chief of Staff Mick Mulvaney, former National Security Adviser John Bolton, Energy Secretary Rick Perry, Acting Director of the Office of Management and Budget Russell Vought, and Rudy Giuliani. Other White House officials who have also refused to testify include National Security Council lawyers John Eisenberg and Michael Ellis; Mulvaney adviser Robert Blair; and Brian McCormack, the associate director for natural resources, energy, and science at the Office of Management and Budget. Additionally, as specified in the report, the White House, the Office of the Vice President, the Office of Management and Budget, the Department of State, the Department of Defense and the Department of Energy failed to produce any documents in response to “71 specific, individualized requests or demands for records in their possession, custody, or control.”

A refusal to cooperate is a matter of stated policy. On Oct. 8, White House Counsel Pat Cipollone wrote a letter in response to a House subpoenainforming the leaders of the inquiry that President Trump and members of his administration would not participate in the inquiry “under any circumstances.” Cipollone argued that the inquiry is unconstitutional and violates due process, and that it is seeking to invalidate the 2016 election and influence the 2020 election.

So, witnesses can refuse to comply with a congressional subpoena only if they have a valid privilege protecting their testimony. Cipollone’s letter did not assert any privilege. And without one, the refusal to engage the committee has a small problem: two federal obstruction of justice statutes.
First, 18 U.S.C. § 1505, provides that “[w]hoever corruptly, or by threats or force, or by any threatening letter or communication influences, obstructs, or impedes or endeavors to influence, obstruct, or impede ... the due and proper exercise of the power of inquiry under which any inquiry or investigation is being had by either House, or any committee of either House or any joint committee of the Congress” shall face criminal consequences. Second, 18 U.S.C. § 1512(c)(2) broadly prohibits corruptly obstructing, influencing or impeding any “official proceeding”—defined to include a proceeding before Congress.

Given the text of the two laws in question, it is worth asking why people seem so unafraid of vulnerability under them, even in flouting their apparent terms so openly.
One reason may be that the current Justice Department is most unlikely to contemplate an obstruction case against anyone for stiffing a congressional committee in the context of the impeachment investigation.

By their terms, these statutes seem to cover both the White House’s conduct and the conduct of the witnesses who are not showing up. And the congressional inquiry committees agree that the conduct is obstructive. The House adopted a resolution guiding the impeachment inquiry, which provided that if the president blocked witnesses from testifying or refused to produce documents, “the chair shall have the discretion to impose appropriate remedies, including by denying specific requests by the President or his counsel under these procedures to call or question witnesses.” The House Intelligence Committee then devoted half of its report to detailing the obstructive conduct, listing all the ways in which executive officials refused to comply with the inquiry.

In short, this is a long way of saying that there is continuing debate regarding whether a president can be charged under the obstruction statutes, despite the apparent application of their prohibitions to the facts at hand in the impeachment inquiry. This very ambiguity might inhibit a prosecutor from going after Trump on this point. But this does not answer the question of whether individuals who are not the president—such as Giuliani, Mulvaney, Pompeo and Cipollone—could have a problem. I find the later very problematic as do most attorneys...
I'm not being argumentative, just seeking clarification. I believe there is a remedy for this and its via the courts, am I correct? If I am, I think rushing to seek that remedy prior to voting for full impeachment would garner more public support and allow for more
Bipartisan support.
 
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Remember, even the Devil himself gave an apple to a hungry woman once. Is philanthropy the new measuring stick of what makes a good President? Sorry, I didn't get the memo.
 
I'm not being argumentative, just seeking clarification. I believe there is a remedy for this and its via the courts, am I correct? If I am, I think rushing to seek that remedy prior to voting for full impeachment would garner more public support and allow for more
Bipartisan support.
Your observation is correct- but then it becomes an issue of timing—as it would have to wind itself through the appellate courts.
 
My guess is that Bloomberg has "calculated" a way to winning the primaries that doesn't include Iowa and New Hampshire. The guy is extremely data-oriented. I have a feeling that the country will like the idea of having somebody cerebral like him being CEO, as long as he's socially moderate.
 
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