Why do you, honestly, want to be a DO?

[Gandyy]

Your entire post is based off of one of the factors in the grad app, USMLE. There is so much more to it, which more knowledgable people can chime in on.

What if med schools just looked at MCAT scores? Those who got the highest get accepted.

True. But admission to medical school can be based on various factors. GPA, extracurriculars, dedication to the healthcare field, demonstration of your altruism, demonstration of knowing what you are getting into.

From what I understand, medical school no one has any time to do anything but study. When many medical schools are pass/fail what else do you have to offer besides Summer Research and your Board Scores? I doubt you have much time to do anything else but study.

Of course, I'm not even in med school, i'm just speculating

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[el_duderino]

But its the largest part isnt it?

Depends on the specialty. It's a large part, but it's probably a lot like the MCAT. Adcoms or institutions will often look for students who did "well enough" on the MCAT, and the farther below that line you are the more of a negative it is for you. Anything above that line is generally not that beneficial. This is more or less how it goes going from what I've heard PDs say. They'll look at your Step 1 score, and if it's high enough you're fine. If it's not, that's a negative mark for you and you have to really make up for it with research, outstanding clinical grades, etc. If two candidates are more or less the same on paper and interview, then yeah maybe Step 1 will be the deciding factor.

Bottom line is that Step 1 is important, but it's not everything. PDs are going to try to estimate your competence and experience based on a lot of things, of which Step 1 is only part. Clinical grades and quality/caliber of the clinical experience you got at your school are going to be big parts of it as well.

 

[Gandyy]

Depends on the specialty. It's a large part, but it's probably a lot like the MCAT. Adcoms or institutions will often look for students who did "well enough" on the MCAT, and the farther below that line you are the more of a negative it is for you. Anything above that line is generally not that beneficial. This is more or less how it goes going from what I've heard PDs say. They'll look at your Step 1 score, and if it's high enough you're fine. If it's not, that's a negative mark for you and you have to really make up for it with research, outstanding clinical grades, etc. If two candidates are more or less the same on paper and interview, then yeah maybe Step 1 will be the deciding factor.

Bottom line is that Step 1 is important, but it's not everything. PDs are going to try to estimate your competence and experience based on a lot of things, of which Step 1 is only part. Clinical grades and quality/caliber of the clinical experience you got at your school are going to be big parts of it as well.

Very informative. So then, how do I figure out what DO schools offer the best clinical experiences?

I hear DMU, KCU and CCOM are all pretty elite when it comes to 3rd and 4th year rotations.

 

[el_duderino]

From what I understand, medical school no one has any time to do anything but study.

Totally not true. Literally everyone in my class is working on other projects, whether bench research, clinical research, community outreach, etc. Many people are working on multiple projects. They do shadowing, go to grand rounds, all sorts of things. The people who get admitted to US MD programs are, in general, not the kind of people content to study and do nothing else with their lives.

 

[el_duderino]

Very informative. So then, how do I figure out what DO schools offer the best clinical experiences?

I hear DMU, KCU and CCOM are all pretty elite when it comes to 3rd and 4th year rotations.

No idea. Look at where 3rd and 4th year students do their rotations, I suppose.

 

[Gandyy]

Totally not true. Literally everyone in my class is working on other projects, whether bench research, clinical research, community outreach, etc. Many people are working on multiple projects. They do shadowing, go to grand rounds, all sorts of things. The people who get admitted to US MD programs are, in general, not the kind of people content to study and do nothing else with their lives.

Fair enough. I guess you are at a US MD program?

 

[el_duderino]

Fair enough. I guess you are at a US MD program?

Yeah. One of the schools generally placed in the "lower tier." It's a really great school, though, and it's (physically) attached to a large teaching research hospital with many residency programs and a level 1 trauma center. That's a low-tier MD program, and there aren't many (if any) DO programs that can boast that.

 

[Iridescent]

True. But admission to medical school can be based on various factors. GPA, extracurriculars, dedication to the healthcare field, demonstration of your altruism, demonstration of knowing what you are getting into.

From what I understand, medical school no one has any time to do anything but study. When many medical schools are pass/fail what else do you have to offer besides Summer Research and your Board Scores? I doubt you have much time to do anything else but study.

Of course, I'm not even in med school, i'm just speculating

There's a lot more. Research is a huge factor for the highly competitive specialties (derm, ortho) and DO schools aren't really known for their research. Next is the quality of clinical rotations. MD schools generally have better and larger facilities to train students to become residents. These hospitals generally have residents of their own and thus are teaching hospitals. because of the size and location of these hospitals, students view a wide array of pathologies too. DO schools on the other hand generally have less teaching hospitals and many more community hospitals. Clinical rotations is what really matters in the grad app. That's were students actually start to become a practicing physician.

To answer your question, it isn't a level playing field. MDs have a huge advantage

 

[Gandyy]

There's a lot more. Research is a huge factor for the highly competitive specialties (derm, ortho) and DO schools aren't really known for their research. Next is the quality of clinical rotations. MD schools generally have better and larger facilities to train students to become residents. These hospitals generally have residents of their own and thus are teaching hospitals. because of the size and location of these hospitals, students view a wide array of pathologies too. DO schools on the other hand generally have less teaching hospitals and many more community hospitals. Clinical rotations is what really matters in the grad app. That's were students actually start to become a practicing physician.

To answer your question, it isn't a level playing field. MDs have a huge advantage

Its crazy how doing bad on the MCAT or having a bad undergrad gpa can put you at such a disadvantage so many years down the road.

 

[IslandStyle808]

Its crazy how doing bad on the MCAT or having a bad undergrad gpa can put you at such a disadvantage so many years down the road.

It all adds up, this includes what college you get into. If you are just trying to get into a medical school, then where you go to college is irrelevant. However, when you are trying to get into Yale or Harvard medical schools, it then can become a weeder tool.

 

[Gandyy]

It all adds up, this includes what college you get into. If you are just trying to get into a medical school, then where you go to college is irrelevant. However, when you are trying to get into Yale or Harvard medical schools, it then can become a weeder tool.

The biggest problem is getting a 31 on the MCAT. I studied my ass off for that *****ic test and scored slightly below that. Its so lame.

In the end though, I have no interest in Derm or Plastic surgery.

Orthopedic surgery though, I do have some interest in and that is why I am concerned.

 

[IslandStyle808]

The biggest problem is getting a 31 on the MCAT. I studied my ass off for that *****ic test and scored slightly below that. Its so lame.

In the end though, I have no interest in Derm or Plastic surgery.

Orthopedic surgery though, I do have some interest in and that is why I am concerned.

With orthopedic surgery, there are many spots even offered by AOA residencies (well soon to be ACGME with an osteopathic focus). So you should have a fair shot even as a DO student.

 

[Gandyy]

With orthopedic surgery, there are many spots even offered by AOA residencies (well soon to be ACGME with an osteopathic focus). So you should have a fair shot even as a DO student.

I'm just not sure what will be available to DO students in the future with the merger though.

 

[IslandStyle808]

I'm just not sure what will be available to DO students in the future with the merger though.

Yep a valid concern. Not so much because of the residencies closing down, but for the increasing amount of medical students on both sides MD and DO.... However, the same could be said if you went to Drexel instead of Yale. This concern would still be there even if you are an MD student. There is no golden ticket you just have to do the best you can in whatever school accepts you.

 

[moisne]

I'm not a DO student but I do have DO student friends.

They went to DO because they didn't get into MD. Some applied to MD and DO at the same time, some applied to DO after being rejected by MD. Personally, I've never met someone who went to DO who was offered MD acceptance (while I don't doubt it happens - based on DO is trained MORE to see at patient holistically). DO is easier to get into - and if you don't want to spend so much time buffing up your MD application - I don't see why not - especially if you are more interested in primary care.

DO is more forgiving (grade replacement, and generally slightly lower MCAT acceptance). I'd recommend most applicants to apply DO and MD at the same time.

 

[AlteredScale]

Very informative. So then, how do I figure out what DO schools offer the best clinical experiences?

I hear DMU, KCU and CCOM are all pretty elite when it comes to 3rd and 4th year rotations.

Nah I would say the ones that are "elite" for 3rd and 4th year are OSU-COM and TCOM since they have their own teaching hospital. The most impressive so far has be the new campus for Ohio University. It's built within Cleveland Clinic South Pointe Hospital and is a class of 50.

KCU has some good options with Children's Mercy in KC and some other community hospitals around. You can rotate at KU Med but again it's preceptor based. Other sites include Florida, MI, OH, OK. All of them are teaching hospitals but that doesn't speak of the quality of those hospitals in terms of clerkship clinical exposure and training.

I've heard DMU has it's own hospital or is strongly affiliated with a community teaching hospital (?).

 

[AlteredScale]

I'm not a DO student but I do have DO student friends.

They went to DO because they didn't get into MD. Some applied to MD and DO at the same time, some applied to DO after being rejected by MD. Personally, I've never met someone who went to DO who was offered MD acceptance (while I don't doubt it happens - based on DO is trained MORE to see at patient holistically). DO is easier to get into - and if you don't want to spend so much time buffing up your MD application - I don't see why not - especially if you are more interested in primary care.

DO is more forgiving (grade replacement, and generally slightly lower MCAT acceptance). I'd recommend most applicants to apply DO and MD at the same time.

"Holistically" treating a patient is not a distinction between MD and DO. UCSF, Stanford, HMS all provide amazing course work around their curriculum that allows students to engage the patient as a human, not a case (see their curriculum). At the end of the day, DO and MD students have less than 20 minutes to work up a patient during USMLE/COMLEX Step 2, there's only so much holistic management you can do in that time.

 

[SouthernSurgeon]

I'm not insulting anyone. It is a well known issue that medical schools have historically lacked in teaching compassionate care- unsurprisingly, something that does need to be taught, just like anatomy or pharmacology. Some schools are remedying this, from what I've heard. I speak from my experiences with medical students over the past 10 years along with a small number of US- educated MDs who seen to have been the most heartless people I had the displeasure of encountering. The most compassionate physician I've ever worked with was a MD (though he was educated elsewhere). I don't think this is in any way the norm in medicine- I know it's not- but there is a definite issue in that area. DO schools have had more to gain by returning to the qualities upon which they were established. Again, that may not be the norm but it seems like it might be trending that way by the time I enter med school.

Edit: Apologies for typos and autocorrect errors from my phone.

@applejackcrunch, I think your attitude towards how you want to practice is awesome. But the way you deliver the message by saying MD's don't do this or that can really step on some toes as seen by the responses to your statements. Tbh, you really can't generalize and say that MDs don't teach compassionate care. I think it's definitely being emphasized. Just look at the courses on physicians as healers, started by Rachel Remen, MD: http://www.ishiprograms.org/about/rachel-naomi-remen-md/. We all have the same goals as physicians, to care for our patients.

Just some objective things that I have noticed about my DO classmates, we really don't have many straight outta college students...there's a lot more life experience, and varied backgrounds, different journeys through life to get where we are. I absolutely love my school. It is insane how collaborative the class is, and how you don't feel like people are total gunners, we honestly do a lot of resource sharing etc. I think it helps that tests aren't curved. It's kinda great. That said, you have to balance the regular medical school curriculum that MD's go through AND you have an additional 4 hours of OMM...that is hard.

The idea about viewing the person as a whole is constantly being emphasized from Day 1 because it is a fundamental philosophy of osteopathic medicine and how it's been taught for the past 100 years so really...you can't escape it. Hope you're ready for that. It's definitely something that drew me to osteopathic medicine. The caveat is that in order to practice medicine these days especially primary care, you have maybe 30 minutes or less...I think it might be 15 minutes sometimes to see a patient...and that's it. It is EXTREMELY difficult to "assess the whole person" in 30 minutes or less. Our professors try to teach us how to do this in med skills with questions about social determinants of health, diet, and exercise for the medical history, but in the real world, I really don't know how likely it would be to fit these questions and get meaningful answers. Unless you are able to find a practice/start a practice/make less money to deliver quality care which requires more time with the patient. It's a sad state of affairs and I blame corporate america for making medicine into a business and physicians for allowing it to move in this direction...that's another story.

Not many people plan to use OMM, that is very true. I think you need to come into school with both an open mind, but also remain objective and scientific. There are many techniques you will learn that do not have solid scientific backing -- this is an inherent weakness and I think there is a huge push to conduct more research and find the evidence to back up some of the more effective techniques. I think as more research comes out, we will see many of these techniques incorporated into medicine in general. I shadowed a DO that had a private practice doing OMM only and spent an hour with each patient. His patients loved him and were constantly telling me about how they were benefitting from OMT treatments for fibromyalgia, musculoskeletal trauma, etc. It's anecdotal, but I swear, call it the placebo effect whatever, there is something about certain OMM techniques that work. So don't completely discount it. I'm definitely using it in practice.

Final note: You can easily see the MD rejects stick out like sore thumbs (on SDN too) because they obviously bs-ed their way into an acceptance at an osteopathic school. Don't be one of those self loathing DOs that settled for an osteopathic medical school. I genuinely wanted to go the osteopathic route and it was the best decision I ever made. Good Luck!

The thing is (and I'm sure you will just ignore my post because it is too micro-aggressive)...

You guys just have no clue how clueless you come across when you say things like this and espouse the virtues of the DO "philosophy".

No one practicing medicine outside of some AOA loonies says stuff like this. It's only ever M1s and pie in the sky pre-meds.

Anyone with actual medical training realizes we all approach patients the same way. And further, 99.99% of the way you learn to approach, evaluate, and manage patients will be drummed into you during your thousands of hours of residency training, not some bulls**t M1 lecture about treating the whole patient. (A bulls**t lecture which, by the way, they give us in those mean nasty MD schools too.)

The DO anesthesia resident I worked with on Friday didn't holistically administer propofol or consider the whole patient while they were sticking the ETT down their throat.

 

[el_duderino]

The thing is (and I'm sure you will just ignore my post because it is too micro-aggressive)...

You guys just have no clue how clueless you come across when you say things like this and espouse the virtues of the DO "philosophy".

No one practicing medicine outside of some AOA loonies says stuff like this. It's only ever M1s and pie in the sky pre-meds.

Anyone with actual medical training realizes we all approach patients the same way. And further, 99.99% of the way you learn to approach, evaluate, and manage patients will be drummed into you during your thousands of hours of residency training, not some bulls**t M1 lecture about treating the whole patient. (A bulls**t lecture which, by the way, they give us in those mean nasty MD schools too.)

The DO anesthesia resident I worked with on Friday didn't holistically administer propofol or consider the whole patient while they were sticking the ETT down their throat.

What else are people supposed to say when secondaries and interviewers say "why do you want to be a DO"? Should they just speak about being a physician and not say anything about what makes a DO different or special?

 

[SouthernSurgeon]

What else are people supposed to say when secondaries and interviewers say "why do you want to be a DO"? Should they just speak about being a physician and not say anything about what makes a DO different or special?

You can do whatever you want in your interviews.

Believing it and nurturing that belief as an ego defense is another matter

 

[el_duderino]

This is another reason I think the DO name should go away. I never got a DO interview, so I never had to spout some BS nonsense I didn't actually believe during my interview.

Just make them all MD programs.

 

[IslandStyle808]

What else are people supposed to say when secondaries and interviewers say "why do you want to be a DO"? Should they just speak about being a physician and not say anything about what makes a DO different or special?

Problem is people think they need to make the comparison when they don't. If one likes the primary care stuff or preventative stuff, just put it down (there are MD school that emphasizes this, but one would apply to those schools too with the right stats). Main thing is that applicants shouldn't belittle the MD degree when giving the "why DO" response.

 

[Roxas]

Problem is people think they need to make the comparison when they don't. If one likes the primary care stuff or preventative stuff, just put it down (there are MD school that emphasizes this, but one would apply to those schools too with the right stats). Main thing is that applicants shouldn't belittle the MD degree when giving the "why DO" response.

I was under the impression that most interviewers strongly dislike applicants that take this approach. My school has several MD faculty so I can't imagine it would go over too well

 

[Praxis8]

Anyone with actual medical training realizes we all approach patients the same way. And further, 99.99% of the way you learn to approach, evaluate, and manage patients will be drummed into you during your thousands of hours of residency training, not some bulls**t M1 lecture about treating the whole patient. (A bulls**t lecture which, by the way, they give us in those mean nasty MD schools too.)

The DO anesthesia resident I worked with on Friday didn't holistically administer propofol or consider the whole patient while they were sticking the ETT down their throat.

You're not being microagressive, I get what you're saying SouthernSurgeron, completely valid. MD/DO, the training is the same in med school and residency. You really can't learn the foundations of clinical medicine any other way to be a proficient physician.

Anesthesia is a horrible example though. That's a given...surgery falls in the same category. Whatever "whole person" medicine DO/MDs are doing in those fields has to do with your ability to communicate clearly and be empathetic towards your patients pre/post op.

However, it's a good distinction to make, the "whole person" approach applies mainly to primary care fields and a few specialties i.e. family medicine/ob gyn/internal med/oncology/PM&R/NMM/Integrative Medicine etc. Practicing "whole person" medicine is 100% dependent on the individual physician, DO or MD, on how they aim to practice. MD's who practice integrative medicine are an example of treating patients with a whole person, mind/body/spirit philosophy. DO's just have the philosophy explicitly written as core tenet of being a DO and it's emphasized often. That's all I'm saying. Doesn't mean osteopathic grads will practice any differently except for a small percentage of physicians who choose to.

For premeds interested in Integrative Medicine (still a controversial field in the medical community, but you will start seeing it more and more as many of the top universities are developing research centers for integrative medicine):
NIH-NCCIH - http://www.nih.gov/about/almanac/organization/NCCIH.htm,
Integrative Medicine - http://integrativemedicine.arizona.edu/about/definition.html

This is another reason I think the DO name should go away. I never got a DO interview, so I never had to spout some BS nonsense I didn't actually believe during my interview.

Just make them all MD programs.

This may happen if OMM/NMM becomes a sub-specialty which seems possible given the current matriculation trends. But Jonnythan, until then, be happy with your MD degree, you've made it. Why do you feel the need to come on the DO forums to belittle the degree of 20% of physicians? Kind of petty, if you ask me.

 

[el_duderino]

This may happen if OMM/NMM becomes a sub-specialty which seems possible given the current matriculation trends. But Jonnythan, until then, be happy with your MD degree, you've made it. Why do you feel the need to come on the DO forums to belittle the degree of 20% of physicians? Kind of petty, if you ask me.

If it seems I'm belittling anyone's degree, I apologize. That's not at all my intent. I don't think it's belittling a DO degree to say it's equivalent to an MD degree. I think having two separate degrees does everyone a disservice.

By the way, the only degree I have is a BS.

 

[NontradCA]

If you lie in an interview, it's likely someone will pick up on it. If you believe in the "DO philosophy", talk about it. If you don't, talk about wanting to be a physician and say it in a way that hits the mission of the school.

 

[Praxis8]

If it seems I'm belittling anyone's degree, I apologize. That's not at all my intent. I don't think it's belittling a DO degree to say it's equivalent to an MD degree. I think having two separate degrees does everyone a disservice.

By the way, the only degree I have is a BS.

No worries Jonnythan, we're cool. Patients def do get mixed up with the two separate degrees, there would be a societal benefit to combine the two degrees. But it does feel like something would be lost, there is a pretty interesting history behind the osteopathic degree. I guess we'll see what happens in the next 50 years.

Speaking of a BS (which is the one of my degrees as well), tongue-in-cheek saying one of our PhD professors brought up about a PhD:
BS = bullsh**
MS = More sh**
PhD = Piled high and deep.

Not trying to belittle the PhD. Mad respect.

 

[Goro]

PhD? I prefer "phony doctor".

No worries Jonnythan, we're cool. Patients def do get mixed up with the two separate degrees, there would be a societal benefit to combine the two degrees. But it does feel like something would be lost, there is a pretty interesting history behind the osteopathic degree. I guess we'll see what happens in the next 50 years.

Speaking of a BS (which is the one of my degrees as well), tongue-in-cheek saying one of our PhD professors brought up about a PhD:
BS = bullsh**
MS = More sh**
PhD = Piled high and deep.

Not trying to belittle the PhD. Mad respect.

 

[Seth Joo]

The only time you will actually get grilled on why you want to be a DO as to becoming an MD is on interview day if your interviewer is a DO, and one those DOs who happens to be really into OMM and OMM therapies. On almost all of my interviews I got Basic Science Phds as my primary interviewers, I got a few DOs but none who were big OMM proponents. If you are one of the unlucky ones who gets those worshipers of AT Still you can bet you are going to be grilled about why you want to be a DO and what do you know about Osteopathic Medicine. These DO interviewers love to weed out the applicants using the DO as a backup for MD, which is like 30 percent of applicants and students. The admissions folks at my school already know and understand many applicants are using a the DO as a back for the MD so they do not unleash the AT Still worshipers too often on unsuspecting interviewees.

My best advice for such a situation is to find a DO to shadow, get a letter of recommendation from that DO, get a good understanding of OMM and its therapeutic value, just in case they pop the question on interview day.

A few don'ts is never put down MDs, and never compare OMM to Chiropractic Medicine to a DO's face.

 

[oOKawaiiOo]

The only time you will actually get grilled on why you want to be a DO as to becoming an MD is on interview day if your interviewer is a DO, and one those DOs who happens to be really into OMM and OMM therapies. On almost all of my interviews I got Basic Science Phds as my primary interviewers, I got a few DOs but none who were big OMM proponents. If you are one of the unlucky ones who gets those worshipers of AT Still you can bet you are going to be grilled about why you want to be a DO and what do you know about Osteopathic Medicine. These DO interviewers love to weed out the applicants using the DO as a backup for MD, which is like 30 percent of applicants and students. The admissions folks at my school already know and understand many applicants are using a the DO as a back for the MD so they do not unleash the AT Still worshipers too often on unsuspecting interviewees.

My best advice for such a situation is to find a DO to shadow, get a letter of recommendation from that DO, get a good understanding of OMM and its therapeutic value, just in case they pop the question on interview day.

A few don'ts is never put down MDs, and never compare OMM to Chiropractic Medicine to a DO's face.

+1.........Youre starting to become one of my favorite members on SDN.

 

[el_duderino]

applicants using the DO as a backup for MD, which is like 30 percent of applicants

That seems like a conservative number, given what I read on SDN.

 

[Mad Jack]

If it seems I'm belittling anyone's degree, I apologize. That's not at all my intent. I don't think it's belittling a DO degree to say it's equivalent to an MD degree. I think having two separate degrees does everyone a disservice.

By the way, the only degree I have is a BS.

I agree. I think osteopathy should be a fellowship for those interested, not an entirely separate degree.

 

[235009]

That seems like a conservative number, given what I read on SDN.

The actual number is probably closer to 3x that if you include people who applied only DO because they knew they didn't have a chance at US MD but would have accepted a spot in a heartbeat.

 

[Mad Jack]

The actual number is probably closer to 3x that if you include people who applied only DO because they knew they didn't have a chance at US MD but would have accepted a spot in a heartbeat.

I'd put the "DO was my primary choice, I never considered MD" camp at roughly 15-20% of applicants, just off of anecdotal discussion with a number of classmates.

 

[Seth Joo]

I'd put the "DO was my primary choice, I never considered MD" camp at roughly 15-20% of applicants, just off of anecdotal discussion with a number of classmates.

I was thinking at most 30 percent of students currently enrolled at DO schools probably have the stats and qualifications to be at Allopathic schools but as I said did not get into those schools for varying reasons. As far as intentions, probably more than 80 percent of students deep down would rather be at an MD school if they were given the choice, but many of these students had weaknesses, mostly academic issues, low GPA or MCAT scores, that would keep them out of MD schools. MD schools also frown upon non traditional applicants as well, even those with strong academic qualifications.

 

[235009]

MD schools also frown upon non traditional applicants as well, even those with strong academic qualifications.

This is totally untrue.

For US MD schools
Average age of applicants: 24
Average age of matriculants: 24

https://www.aamc.org/download/321468/data/factstable6.pdf

 

[el_duderino]

Where does he get this stuff??

 

[DOFOSHO]

Enough to want more.

There is a difference between healthy skepticism and prejudice. I came in with an open mind, but with the expectation of being shown proof. I've already personally experienced relief of pain from receiving OMM. I balance that against people who haven't experienced it telling me that it is all hocum and bunk.

I'm not saying that there isn't room for reasonable debate about the finer points, mechanism of action, etc. But my professors do seem to know something useful, and I want to learn as much of it as possible before I start dismissing it, rather than the other way around, which is most of what I see on SDN.

Sent from my SM-N910P using Tapatalk

lol wow you stopped drinking Kool-Aid and have regressed to drinking Flavor-Aid.

 

[DOFOSHO]

No, my interview won't be for at least 3 years anyways as I'm taking gap years. I'm just genuinely curious since I have no pre-med friends to discuss this with anymore (they all gave up about a year or two into college ) . I just want to know why other people want to do DO, and honestly. I'm sick of those cookie-cutter answers boring people give

Who?

 

[Seth Joo]

lol wow you stopped drinking Kool-Aid and have regressed to drinking Flavor-Aid.

I am guessing the poster has developed a case of Stockholm Syndrome, either that or has developed a taste for Kia Automobiles, which DO schools are considered in the realm of higher education, we are Kias, we are not Mercedes Benz, and we are not even Toyotas, we are Kias, practical but not well known automobiles. The AOA has been trying to change that with weak results.

Pre-medical students applying to medical schools are just like any capitalist consumer buyer they need to see if their investment is worth while, also if their purchase is going to give them "prestige" in the eyes of the peers, family, friends, strangers, etc. A medical degree from a fancy research university can do just that, a DO degree from some unknown school in an inner city ghetto will not have that kind of power, it will still allow the buyer to enter a career in Medicine. It won't give them much else.

 

[Praxis8]

I am guessing the poster has developed a case of Stockholm Syndrome, either that or has developed a taste for Kia Automobiles, which DO schools are considered in the realm of higher education, we are Kias, we are not Mercedes Benz, and we are not even Toyotas, we are Kias, practical but not well known automobiles. The AOA has been trying to change that with weak results.

Pre-medical students applying to medical schools are just like any capitalist consumer buyer they need to see if their investment is worth while, also if their purchase is going to give them "prestige" in the eyes of the peers, family, friends, strangers, etc. A medical degree from a fancy research university can do just that, a DO degree from some unknown school in an inner city ghetto will not have that kind of power, it will still allow the buyer to enter a career in Medicine. It won't give them much else.

Honestly Sethjoo, it appears you are a DO student (who knows on these forums), but have some pride man. You don't have to drink the kool-aid, but you don't need to frolick around shouting out to the world that DOs are Kias. Definition of self loathing. Truly sad if we really did just estimate 80-90% of students fall into this category of "I just want to be a doctor, but I'm ashamed of the 200k degree that I paid for". Might as well go Carribean and get that MD and feel good inside.

 

[Launcelot]

I am guessing the poster has developed a case of Stockholm Syndrome, either that or has developed a taste for Kia Automobiles, which DO schools are considered in the realm of higher education, we are Kias, we are not Mercedes Benz, and we are not even Toyotas, we are Kias, practical but not well known automobiles. The AOA has been trying to change that with weak results.

Pre-medical students applying to medical schools are just like any capitalist consumer buyer they need to see if their investment is worth while, also if their purchase is going to give them "prestige" in the eyes of the peers, family, friends, strangers, etc. A medical degree from a fancy research university can do just that, a DO degree from some unknown school in an inner city ghetto will not have that kind of power, it will still allow the buyer to enter a career in Medicine. It won't give them much else.

I don't want all of the pre-meds reading your post to get the wrong idea here. Yes, all that you said might be valid or even true, but in the bigger perspective of things this is truly the definition of cherry-picking something seemingly bad from a very, very good situation. What's the percentage of the total US population that are physicians again? How about how many people who just barely made it out of high school? How about the 50-60 year olds you see everyday working the cash register at Wal-Mart or McDonalds?

What power are you talking about, exactly? We will hear and see things people won't even tell their spouse and in many cases make decisions that will be life-changing for others. Splitting hairs about this will only hurt you and take away from how special the opportunity to become a physician really is. Besides, your degree really is what you make of it.

 

[DOFOSHO]

I am guessing the poster has developed a case of Stockholm Syndrome, either that or has developed a taste for Kia Automobiles, which DO schools are considered in the realm of higher education, we are Kias, we are not Mercedes Benz, and we are not even Toyotas, we are Kias, practical but not well known automobiles. The AOA has been trying to change that with weak results.

Pre-medical students applying to medical schools are just like any capitalist consumer buyer they need to see if their investment is worth while, also if their purchase is going to give them "prestige" in the eyes of the peers, family, friends, strangers, etc. A medical degree from a fancy research university can do just that, a DO degree from some unknown school in an inner city ghetto will not have that kind of power, it will still allow the buyer to enter a career in Medicine. It won't give them much else.

yeah i wasn't trying to make an analogy of DO:Kia; MD:Benz, i was just emphasizing that OMM is....well...kinda stupid, and to be fooled into thinking OMM is some revolutionary and superior way to treat patients is....well...kinda ******ed.

I've never seen a DO drive a Kia - I have seen one driving a lowered A8. and he was from your country, @Seth Joo

 

[Promethean]

That seems like a conservative number, given what I read on SDN.

SDN must not be mistaken for reality. Probably fewer than 10% of my class has ever posted here, even once. They may or may not have dropped in to read, but they haven't participated in discussions.

Those who have are not a random cross section. They will tend to share certain attributes at a higher frequency and amplitude, just by being the kinds of people who decided to be active here.

That will necessarily create a skewed impression, if they are taken to represent all med students.

As for abolishing the DO degree... I am glad that you explained your opinion better, @jonnythan. I had misunderstood your intention and originally thought you quite hostile, even disrespectful toward DOs and their degree. I still think that it is pretty presumptuous to assert that there is no difference and that the degree has no distinctiveness at all. Just because something has been loudly and often repeated on SDN does not make it more true. That was why I took the time before to write that there are people who chose the DO route because we did want that small difference, however slight it may be. Otherwise, you might start to believe that what you hear in the echo chamber is true.

Saying DO=MD is like saying DDS=DMD, but I've never heard anyone say that DDS degrees shouldn't exist. There is history and tradition behind it, even though there is no difference whatsoever between types of dentists. DOs do at least have some particular training to set them apart. Even if you don't accept that there is anything to Osteopathic Philosophy, the additional focus on the musculoskeletal system and physical exam does make some difference between DO and MD education... and practice. Yes, all good doctors treat their whole patients, but DOs do tend to use touch more, to be more sparing with pharmaceuticals, etc... even when they don't do OMM. Not all, not all the time, but enough to constitute statistical signifigance.

I'm not saying that makes DOs better, but there is at least a wisp of difference, which I think would get lost if we just discarded the degree entirely. If you want to argue about whether that difference is enough to justify having two kinds of physicians, that might be a worthy discussion to have. I just think that it does everyone a great disservice to minimize it to the point of denying that it even exists. Especially without having investigated the matter beyond reading the prevailing opinions on SDN.

Sent from my SM-N910P using Tapatalk

 

[Promethean]

lol wow you stopped drinking Kool-Aid and have regressed to drinking Flavor-Aid.

SDN never disappoints. No matter how sincere or thoughtful one's post may be, there will always be someone ready to respond with "LOL, wtf" quality derision.

Sent from my SM-N910P using Tapatalk

 

[DOFOSHO]

SDN must not be mistaken for reality. Probably fewer than 10% of my class has ever posted here, even once. They may or may not have dropped in to read, but they haven't participated in discussions.

Those who have are not a random cross section. They will tend to share certain attributes at a higher frequency and amplitude, just by being the kinds of people who decided to be active here.

That will necessarily create a skewed impression, if they are taken to represent all med students.

As for abolishing the DO degree... I am glad that you explained your opinion better, @jonnythan. I had misunderstood your intention and originally thought you quite hostile, even disrespectful toward DOs and their degree. I still think that it is pretty presumptuous to assert that there is no difference and that the degree has no distinctiveness at all. Just because something has been loudly and often repeated on SDN does not make it more true. That was why I took the time before to write that there are people who chose the DO route because we did want that small difference, however slight it may be. Otherwise, you might start to believe that what you hear in the echo chamber is true.

Saying DO=MD is like saying DDS=DMD, but I've never heard anyone say that DDS degrees shouldn't exist. There is history and tradition behind it, even though there is no difference whatsoever between types of dentists. DOs do at least have some particular training to set them apart. Even if you don't accept that there is anything to Osteopathic Philosophy, the additional focus on the musculoskeletal system and physical exam does make some difference between DO and MD education... and practice. Yes, all good doctors treat their whole patients, but DOs do tend to use touch more, to be more sparing with pharmaceuticals, etc... even when they don't do OMM. Not all, not all the time, but enough to constitute statistical signifigance.

I'm not saying that makes DOs better, but there is at least a wisp of difference, which I think would get lost if we just discarded the degree entirely. If you want to argue about whether that difference is enough to justify having two kinds of physicians, that might be a worthy discussion to have. I just think that it does everyone a great disservice to minimize it to the point of denying that it even exists. Especially without having investigated the matter beyond reading the prevailing opinions on SDN.

Sent from my SM-N910P using Tapatalk

you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.

 

[Promethean]

you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.

So says you. Do you really want to have a conversation, or just strafe one?

Sent from my SM-N910P using Tapatalk

 

[22031 Alum]

DOs do tend to use touch more, to be more sparing with pharmaceuticals, etc... even when they don't do OMM. Not all, not all the time, but enough to constitute statistical signifigance.

If you have data that supports this I'd love to see it. In my experience being trained by and now practicing with DOs, practice habits are indistinguishable. (This is in OB/Gyn.)

 

[Seth Joo]

yeah i wasn't trying to make an analogy of DO:Kia; MD:Benz, i was just emphasizing that OMM is....well...kinda stupid, and to be fooled into thinking OMM is some revolutionary and superior way to treat patients is....well...kinda ******ed.

I've never seen a DO drive a Kia - I have seen one driving a lowered A8. and he was from your country, @Seth Joo

Just don't tell the faculty or Deans that, particularly the Deans. I have seen quite a few DO students drive Kias and Mini Coopers, have no clue why the Kias are so popular with students, the Kia Soul in particular. Also the Honda Fit. I could understand the popularity of the Fit, its small and super reliable, the Cooper is stylish and small, but not very reliable.

Faculty seem to go for the Prius, I drive a Prius, beats the Fit, the stupid Mini Cooper and the Kia too. A lot of Japanese folks love German cars, my family doesn't, I don't either, I like reliable stuff. The Chinese and Koreans I know who have the money will almost always buy an Infiniti, Lexus, or Acura over a Mercedes or BMW. My ex-wife's brother was like that, he hated BMWs.

 

[Seth Joo]

Honestly Sethjoo, it appears you are a DO student (who knows on these forums), but have some pride man. You don't have to drink the kool-aid, but you don't need to frolick around shouting out to the world that DOs are Kias. Definition of self loathing. Truly sad if we really did just estimate 80-90% of students fall into this category of "I just want to be a doctor, but I'm ashamed of the 200k degree that I paid for". Might as well go Carribean and get that MD and feel good inside.

Caribbean schools are those cars that you cannot bring back to the US without making major modifications, think Proton Renault and Citroen. LOL. Or that Korean car that got banned from the US a while back Daewoo.

Kia ain't a bad car. I rented one from Hertz a while back, it actually drove pretty good but the gas mileage was mediocre, my Japanese Hondas and Toyotas are way better.