Who wants to make a ton of money

[Shredder]

okay, lets hear it. who wants to amass a huge amount of wealth, and do you have any plans for creating it. as for me im interested in genetic therapy and seguing into human enhancement. might relocate to the East to avoid ethical holdups.

i just feel like starting a thread here. pre allo is boring.

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[DropkickMurphy]

I'd love to make lots of money, and I'm more than willing to pass up the "feel good" plans that many of my fellow premeds have in mind as being the "real" practice of medicine- foreign medical trips, free care for any poor person who darkens my doorstep, helping crackheads, family practice, etc.....

I agree that the pre-allo forum is full of far too many people who have no idea what medicine is actually like, and simply are expressing the opinion because of what they believe the medical school ADCOM's want to hear.

 

[Shredder]

yeah, thats why i sometimes come here or other parts like lounge or international, to seek refuge. allo is at the halfway point between starry eyed and jaded, so i mostly avoid. i got some unexpected rejections and its turned me against the medical establishment and all who are part of it . i like your posts much btw, if that wasnt already clear. i wish all of medicine was that down to earth and normal. pre allo is really a large practice ground for interviews and apps. its great for that purpose. poor place for actually talking like regular people.

any scheme to really hit it big financially? its difficult through practicing alone, as it doesnt scale up well

 

[DropkickMurphy]

Thanks, I like a lot of your ideas too, but at the same time there are more than a few things you've said that I feel are a bit too extreme.

As for a plan, I don't really have one at this time, although I know I don't want to be a private practice owner (too much overhead) and I'm really willing to turn down making filthy sums of cash (from management, etc) for a more moderate sum of cash ($200K a year) with more free time. That's one of the reason EM is appealing to me.....

 

[Shredder]

yeah ive talked to EM docs in shadowing who seem a lot like that, it looks pretty appealing with the shifts. somewhat thrilling of course too...although its mostly auto accidents unlike TV. depends on the area, im sure wayne state and usc get plenty of shootups. free time i agree is important--no point in making dollars if theres never a time to enjoy. are you all settled with where youre going, or still ongoing?

someone has to represent the extremities sometimes i do it just for that very sake, it can make for better (perhaps more heated) discussion. i do think ppl should take stances though, politicians too--im not a big believer in compromise and moderation like the modern gop/neocons, disappointing.

money plan--yeah its basically building castles in the sky right now. but its fun to dream. i like to concoct some sort of guiding light. i also like the idea of having money work for you. there are limits to how much one person can do by direct efforts. thats why i like this part of the forums.

 

[DrBowtie]

Shredder, i've kicked around a few ideas of mine to you in the past.

I'm taking my first semester in the business school and am loving it. Very different from the usual science crowd.

 

[Shredder]

hey, havent seen you much, but i too was like that when i was preparing for mcat. unpleasant time period. its a really different crowd, markedly cooler and more attractive to boot. although--as in business careers--i would say the ends of the spectrum are more extreme than in the science crowd, or at least the lower end. but you dont see that part much since they mostly skip ha. what classes?

 

[DrBowtie]

hey, havent seen you much, but i too was like that when i was preparing for mcat. unpleasant time period. its a really different crowd, markedly cooler and more attractive to boot. although--as in business careers--i would say the ends of the spectrum are more extreme than in the science crowd, or at least the lower end. but you dont see that part much since they mostly skip ha. what classes?

Intro to microcomputer apps (microsoft Office) ~> easy but manadatory attendence.
Accounting 1 & 2 combined into an Honors class ~> easy but mandatory attendence and 3 hours twice a week. Accounting is intuitive much like physics so I like it.

I've been sick this past week and I have 8 am classes MWF so I am usually fast asleep before you log most of your SDN hours.

 

[CTSballer11]

okay, lets hear it. who wants to amass a huge amount of wealth, and do you have any plans for creating it. as for me im interested in genetic therapy and seguing into human enhancement. might relocate to the East to avoid ethical holdups.

i just feel like starting a thread here. pre allo is boring.

How much $$?

I guess the liberal east coast schools are good for something

If you practice medicine you can only make so much. My uncle is around 50 and he still enjoys performing surgery and works long hours, he makes good money but will never amass the great wealth you are mentioning. I would not mind following in his footsteps, but we shall see.

 

[DrBowtie]

How much $$?

I guess the liberal east coast schools are good for something

If you practice medicine you can only make so much. My uncle is around 50 and he still enjoys performing surgery and works long hours, he makes good money but will never amass the great wealth you are mentioning. I would not mind following in his footsteps, but we shall see.

I am guessing Shredder is referring to the development of gene therapy to then be marketed to the physicians and companies to use.

You're right about the threshold though. Being a doctor you won't amass a great amount of wealth but opportunities are hot in the field of medicine. Seeing pts won't get you there.

 

[Shredder]

being a doc is a great way to generate some fairly serious startup cash. its hard to get that by doing basic entry level work. I banking maybe but hours arent exactly easy nor selectivity. why is it that docs all seem to work "60-80-X" number of hours per week? premed counselors like to say things like "be prepared to work such and such amount". do docs have no choice over number of hours? ive asked this before--its hard to believe that docs voluntarily work so much though. leisure time is so much more valuable. there are just other ways to make money than purely by working for it--but thats assuming theres enough money to invest here and there. and thats why medicine seems great.

great wealth like net worth of over 10 million. basically wealth just beyond what a doc can make through practice alone. bc thats where things shift from pre allo/allo to med business. we should make med business the wealthiest forum on sdn. wouldnt that be interesting, a ranking of forums by mean wealth. if anyone outside of med business saw this they would throw such a fit.

accountings pretty dry, i liked marketing a lot though. management was just a bunch of corporate buzzwords and concepts, i.e. teamwork, diversity, groupthink etc. finance was cool...thats where the real money is. or maybe thats debateable. i minored in business so i touched on several biz subjects superficially.

haha oooh i see now, i meant the EAST East, like hemispheres. US regulations are too uptight, i think it might be holding up progress such as in stem cells for example. too much ethical hoopla, lets just get on with things. im aiming for singapore, just might go there someday.

 

[Law2Doc]

allo is at the halfway point between starry eyed and jaded, so i mostly avoid.

Speaking on behalf of the jaded, I have to say that all threads longing for making tons of money tend to be the most extreme of the "starry eyed" variety. If you can make it happen, that's fantastic, but it's far easier to say than do. A physicians salary won't make you rich. Posting that you want to be rich won't make it so either.

 

[Shredder]

i agree with the gist of your post, but theres a difference between ambition and idealism/starry eyes. its not just about talking of dreams of wealth, its about planning strategies to achieve it, or rather, create it. the ultimate contribution of a human to society/mankind in life is the creation of wealth. might as well try to do as much as possible. the goal isnt serving ones fellow man and such--in the end it is the creation of wealth. gates > mother theresa. this is not meant to be a superficial thread as it may appear. theres a lot more to money than swimming in it and buying mansions, cars, jets and beautiful dates. even in medicine its dollars that heal patients and find cures.

but law2doc you make a valuable contribution here, its important to have two sides to every issue. the gas pedal and the brakes. its certainly true that if creating great wealth were easy more people would do it. i already addressed the issue of a physicians salary. no salary will lead to fortunes. as well off and respected as they are, docs are still workers in the big picture. as such, they have limited power and jurisdiction. with only 24 hours in a day, a single humans output cannot exceed a certain limit. im reminded of boxer in animal farm. poor horse...such a sad story

the day ambition wanes is the day life begins its downturn and spiral toward its conclusion. this thread isnt important, pre allo was just growing lame and med business getting a little slow. but if it helps maintain inspiration, why not? now one may argue that the same applies to pre allo idealism. however, isnt that kind of idealism guaranteed to falter eventually? whereas idealism about riches is against the odds, but its not a strict issue of probability. its absolutely not guaranteed to come crashing down. so on and so on...time to learn tango

 

[mshheaddoc]

great wealth like net worth of over 10 million. basically wealth just beyond what a doc can make through practice alone.

Unless you have a start up or a company of some sort, the average joe doctor will never end up with anything close to that. Especially with the lifestyles of most of the doctors and also the rising cost of family living.

 

[DropkickMurphy]

Personally I would like to just be able to have enough money my family can do what we want to do. I don't need millions.


By the way, Brett, I'll be a business major when I get done with the mortuary science degree (December 9! Thank God)....I don't think I can stand being surrounded by the hardcore science nerds who are without any idea what life is actually like....

 

[DrBowtie]

Personally I would like to just be able to have enough money my family can do what we want to do. I don't need millions.


By the way, Brett, I'll be a business major when I get done with the mortuary science degree (December 9! Thank God)....I don't think I can stand being surrounded by the hardcore science nerds who are without any idea what life is actually like....

Weren't you triple major with like bio/german/chemistry?

 

[DropkickMurphy]

Nope, I dropped the bio/German majors when I changed schools...

 

[Ceez]

Speaking on behalf of the jaded, I have to say that all threads longing for making tons of money tend to be the most extreme of the "starry eyed" variety. If you can make it happen, that's fantastic, but it's far easier to say than do. A physicians salary won't make you rich. Posting that you want to be rich won't make it so either.

co-sign. I'm doing the whole MD/MBA thing right now and most of what I read on this forum is pure comedy

 

[SanDiegoSOD]

I'll PM you shredder. I'm still paranoid to talk money as the application process continues.

 

[Law2Doc]

co-sign. I'm doing the whole MD/MBA thing right now and most of what I read on this forum is pure comedy

Yeah. If I had a nickle for every undergrad premed I ever heard say they were going to earn a million dollars, I'd have a million dollars.

 

[Shredder]

thanks guys--im sure ppl expressed similar sentiments toward discussions of HMOs in their infancy. those are probably the same ppl who now complain about HMOs while their creators enjoy millions upon millions and the knowledge that they reshaped medicine.

once again this thread is about discussing opportunities and areas that have potential for positive change and the creation of wealth/health. at one time this would have been HMOs. the next HMO type of revolution remains to be seen, but if ppl wait for opportunities to come knocking, the odds are that somebody else will come by and scoop them up by that time. if i cant express myself on this topic on a medical business forum on a student/doctor website, i dont know where else to turn. maybe to my negative insides, like you guys appear to have done.

this has nothing to do with md/mba per se. it has everything to do with where big money currently lies in healthcare, such as male contraception, miracle diet drugs...who knows, but certainly not with the "underserved"

also amassing a net worth of 1 million is a joke for any decent doc with a grain of financial savvy

 

[Law2Doc]

it has everything to do with where big money currently lies in healthcare, such as male contraception, miracle diet drugs...who knows, but certainly not with the "underserved"

also amassing a net worth of 1 million is a joke for any decent doc with a grain of financial savvy

Depends if you are talking about per year.

I'm pretty comfortable with the idea that there is little or no money to be made in male contraception. Much like there was no money to be earned from the female condom. (Which was invented, marketed and failed dismally) No one has any interest. The converse -- Drugs that boost male fertility would have a much higher yield.
I'm sure genetic research will produce a multitude of billion dollar drugs (in terms of diet, obesity, cholesterol, etc) in the next couple decades, and that is probably where the big money is going to be in medicine, other than insurance. But the R&D required to get to a genetic test or therapy probably requires the capital and manpower of an existing multinational pharmaceutical company juggernaut behind it.

 

[Shredder]

a yearly million income is another story--very rare among docs whose sole financial device is medicine. more feasible if there are various investments, but it would take more than a grain of financial savvy. MBA would help only marginally if increased salary is used as its only benefit. its the business fundamentals (knowledge as well as skills) that i think are more valuable in it, but i have yet to see. salary cannot compete with equity. i think its the hoarding of equity thats the key to huge wealth--whether its physical or intellectual. can docs (or anyone) buy up hospitals entirely? i dont have a lot of understanding of how that works, i imagine something like the frist family.

contraception, yeah i just tossed it out as an example. theres probably not too much money in it or it might already be on the market, seeing as it doesnt seem like it would take a highly advanced level of research. although i want to be careful not to fall into the trap of "everything has already been invented". maybe theres hope for it yet, but there must be barriers. there was some dabbling in female viagra, i think it fell through. genetics--i really think this will come into play this century (decade?), i just wonder when. human genome sequencing was supposed to promise a medical utopia, but its still unraveling. is the FDA going to hold up progress in the USA, only to see the East take the lead in cutting edge but controversial research?

thanks that was a much better contribution. maybe my thread title wasnt chosen well. its just that i think if there is any forum on sdn that is poised to--at the risk of sounding tacky--"change the world" or at least the medical world, it is med business. talking about soup kitchens, indigent clinics and african trips in pre allo doesnt stimulate me. and this kind of thread would not fly there without being hounded incessantly

law2doc how do law admissions compare to med? my prelaw friend says someone with a 175 LSAT is guaranteed across the board acceptances, maybe even without interviews and regardless of everything (or lack thereof) on the app

 

[Law2Doc]

law2doc how do law admissions compare to med? my prelaw friend says someone with a 175 LSAT is guaranteed across the board acceptances, maybe even without interviews and regardless of everything (or lack thereof) on the app

Getting into law school is much easier than med school, because there are so many and class sizes are often much bigger. I wouldn't say across the board acceptance, but probably multiple acceptances if the application targets are well and realistically chosen. I've known lots of folks who got into law schools with good grades and a decent LSAT and nothing else. I had interviews for law school, but they were largely informational and I don't think they counted the way med school ones do -- and that was back in the day, so things may have changed. I've also known folks with lesser grades who still got into okay law schools, simply because they were coming from Ivy undergrads. As a result of easier admissions, better law schools tend to translate to better jobs in a much more linear correlation than with med schools. Similar to business school, except not as sharp a cut-off after the top 20 or so, and due to the parochial nature of law, you see quite a lot of success of regional law schools (very small unknown law schools who manage to place a lot of graduates into local firms due to longstanding old boy networks and/or varous coop/extern feeder jobs). The real difference in law is that schools are open about the fact that they are not the gatekeeper of the profession in the way that med school is. They play no part in the regulation of the number of attorneys - that is left to the state bar. There is some level of attrition in law school, mostly due to idealists inability to come to grips with the reality of legal practice, or folks realizing that they can't generally just go to law school and immediately come out and work on billion dollar mergers or be a high profile entertainment lawyer or a sports agent, without first many years of "paying your dues" toiling in some high intensity law firm. And for those who make it through, 30% or so of each state's law school grads tend not to pass the bar and thus not even get to practice law (at least that year). It's a profession where you learn a lot, and an awful lot of skills you will pick up in practice will be useful to you in any field. And so because of the versatility of the degree, and the fact that the school isn't going to play gatekeeper to the profession anyhow, I think you don't need to show yourself to be as thought out in your future plans as you would be for med school.

 

[synapse lapse]

I'm with you guys, I have a net worth goal of $10million by the age of 55, which I have a financial plan that will alow me to achieve this (assuming of course I match into the residency of choice and that doctors salaries remain relativily similar). I actually plan to exceed this goal, but I think it is a managable amount to attain and so it is what I have set as a goal. Hopefully I will be able to use some of my income from wealth to start a non-profit/influence politics whilst I continue working at various things. People that think they will help more people without money are absurd, you might help 100 or so people a year at most as a poor doc, but you could easilty help 10,000 people plus giving a few hundred grand to a non-profit based in a 3rd world, and even help many more here in the states with that kind of money. Or you could do as shredder wants and fund private research, etc. Or you can just drive your porsche 911 TT to your mansion on the lake and buy a gulfstream or yacht with a few friends, whatever suits you!

 

[Law2Doc]

I'm with you guys, I have a net worth goal of $10million by the age of 55, which I have a financial plan that will alow me to achieve this (assuming of course I match into the residency of choice and that doctors salaries remain relativily similar). I actually plan to exceed this goal, but I think it is a managable amount to attain and so it is what I have set as a goal. Hopefully I will be able to use some of my income from wealth to start a non-profit/influence politics whilst I continue working at various things. People that think they will help more people without money are absurd, you might help 100 or so people a year at most as a poor doc, but you could easilty help 10,000 people plus giving a few hundred grand to a non-profit based in a 3rd world, and even help many more here in the states with that kind of money. Or you could do as shredder wants and fund private research, etc. Or you can just drive your porsche 911 TT to your mansion on the lake and buy a gulfstream or yacht with a few friends, whatever suits you!

Most of the folks who seem to think they will have a few extra hundred thousand lying around to fund investments and nonprofits and the like are not noticing the fact that physician salaries for the current crops of doctors are at best flat, and lagging behind inflation. Certainly not the kind of income potential of the prior generation of doctors. You will be able to be comfortable, buy a house, save for retirement, and put the kids through college, but likely will not be mansion or gulfstream wealthy. The odds of matching into competitive specialties are the same as the odds of being in the top 10-20% of your med school class. Simple math should tell you most don't manage it. The odds of investing your money and getting a better than 8-10% annual return are incalculable, depends a lot on the economy, but certainly you'd need to invest better than most professionals do over time, which is somewhat unlikely if you do not have more spare time to research things, than most docs. Lots of luck on this "financial plan".

 

[Shredder]

eh, these are all odds and getting wealthy is not strictly a matter of odds. most ppl dont make plans and make blunders and thats why "odds" dont work in their favor. the odds argument seems in line with an external locus of control, which is not the mindset of the rich. families are certainly a hindrance, thats why its ideal to go lone wolf in the establishment phase of wealth. guys can get away with it, theres no rush to settle down and buy a picket fence house with an SUV, country club membership and tennis and piano lessons for the young ones. and also the nice easy chair and plasma screen tv.

luck here, luck there, luck everywhere . luck favors the prepared.

 

[Law2Doc]

luck here, luck there, luck everywhere . luck favors the prepared.

Luck is great, but if you have that in such abundance the faster track to wealth is a lottery ticket. The rest of us here in the real world grind out a comfortable living, try to invest some, and just generally try keeping up with the Joneses, not the Trumps.

 

[Shredder]

it was sarcasm, and no jones has ever done anything significant. plans, especially financial ones, are formulated specifically to avoid having to count on luck to achieve goals. theres a reason lotto winners come overwhelmingly from the lower elements of society. its not joneses who fund the myriad of scholarships, fellowships, grants, and schools that are the lifeblood of premeds and others who scold money, also known as biting the hand that feeds them

 

[synapse lapse]

Most of the folks who seem to think they will have a few extra hundred thousand lying around to fund investments and nonprofits and the like are not noticing the fact that physician salaries for the current crops of doctors are at best flat, and lagging behind inflation. Certainly not the kind of income potential of the prior generation of doctors. You will be able to be comfortable, buy a house, save for retirement, and put the kids through college, but likely will not be mansion or gulfstream wealthy. The odds of matching into competitive specialties are the same as the odds of being in the top 10-20% of your med school class. Simple math should tell you most don't manage it. The odds of investing your money and getting a better than 8-10% annual return are incalculable, depends a lot on the economy, but certainly you'd need to invest better than most professionals do over time, which is somewhat unlikely if you do not have more spare time to research things, than most docs. Lots of luck on this "financial plan".

I greatly appreciate your wonderful, insightful comments

 

[Law2Doc]

it was sarcasm, and no jones has ever done anything significant. plans, especially financial ones, are formulated specifically to avoid having to count on luck to achieve goals. theres a reason lotto winners come overwhelmingly from the lower elements of society. its not joneses who fund the myriad of scholarships, fellowships, grants, and schools that are the lifeblood of premeds and others who scold money, also known as biting the hand that feeds them

With all the delusional folks on SDN sincerely believing medicine is a road (directly or indirectly) to 7 digit incomes (not necessarilly lumping you in there yet, although this thread title really doesn't help), it's hard to tell where the sarcasm lies. Honestly, there are very few multimillionaires who didn't have luck substantially involved -- if only to be trying to do business in a favorable economy. Trump is a good example -- he went from wealthy to financial ruin and back to wealthy, largely not due to anything but luck of the economy. It could have just as easilly been the reverse pattern. In addition to the economy, other kinds of luck are at play - the right opportunity has to present itself -- the wealthy tend to be those who when they actually see an opportunity are smart enough (or have the b@lls) to take it. Yet not everyone will ever get a big money opportunity. So again, it's good to have goals, but non-productive to put the horse ahead of the cart and start counting your future money. It'll just leave you frustrated.

As for your above comment -- it's hardly biting the hand that feeds them -- virtually no scholarship, grant or fellowship is ever given out to the person who proclaims personal wealth as his goal. Giving lipservice to bettering mankind tends to get to get the grants. Perhaps if you happen to make a few million, you can fund a grant for premeds who seek a high income.

 

[Shredder]

i would love to create such a grant, but only if they express interest in making history and not solely purchasing a hummer etc. but mega tycoons never use their money only to buy luxuries, they always use it for noble purposes even though theyre under no obligation. a future tycoons fund would be a great idea, i think its a more noble goal than any other if its clarified. the explicit goal of creating a fund of ones own and a plan to do it would be a really interesting app, and a lot less flaky. in fact such an app would be a lot like the intent of this thread. virtually all premeds eschew goals of moneymaking, when in fact the very schools they apply to and buildings they will be in are named after the moguls who financed them and their naming rights. stanford? david geffen ucla school of med? most private schools, and most of the buildings in public schools. also most grants etc have names attached to them and those names got there for a reason

anyway yes there is always the chance mega wealth plans will falter. thats why medicine is a good backup. at least docs are guaranteed to live good lives. a doc may fail in attempts at wealth but he will never fall flat on his face and have to scrounge around for food money and run around with a resume in hand. there are few if any other careers that offer the safety net that medicine affords. and its a safety net that allows riskier tricks to be performed. luck is a factor in fortunes, but they can be created systematically as well. for example google, the guys just built a better mousetrap and it took them to the land of milk and honey. supposedly amazon.com was also a very calculated decision by the founder, who saw the opportunity and jumped on it. so there is a difference between blind luck and capitalizing on opportunities when they arise. some luck may have factored into donalds situation, but im sure hes also a brilliant businessman as well, as smart businessmen are the ones who can take advantage of good luck and dont allow bad luck to completely ruin them.

bettering mankind is simply a direct function of money, and i could clarify that. and its trumps who do it in a big way, not joneses

 

[troszic]

We need more people like Shredder in America. People need to be ambitious and to dream big. Why is it that sitting in the mud and whining about not having the right opportunities has become such a trendy way of thinking for the middle class?

Also, the med business forum is way cooler than all the others.

 

[Shredder]

Why is it that sitting in the mud and whining about not having the right opportunities has become such a trendy way of thinking for the middle class?

its a psychological thing. probably conscious and subconscious tricks at work. there are many things in america that i think have gotten worse over time, but i think this has been pretty constant for a long time. thats why there is a middle class, the working class. its up to visonaries to escape from that, with the necessary escape velocity. med business is pretty good, a good escape from other parts of sdn. not much arguing or political riffraff, just good discussions and practical advice.

trump says if youre going to be thinking anyway, you might as well think big. i love that line. i should add it to my sig.

were you at my dartmouth interview on 11/3? geez, amazing mdapps, youll do great things. no volunteer, i love it