When does a med student learn to do abortions?

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Panda Bear said:
I am not against dog abortion for the same reason I am not against euthanasia for unwanted dogs. They really do suffer if abandoned and as they have no capacity to understand their suffering or even rise above it it is the merciful thing to do. Not that I wouldn't take more dogs if I could. I'd take more children too but do you know that it is costing us 40,000 bucks to adopt our next child? I understand that we need to avoid the practice of buying and selling children but 40K?

I apologize for being sarcastic. Anybody who loves dogs can't be all bad.

You see, I just think that the suffering is all the worse when the child is abandoned. They don't understand why their mom is angry all the time, or why she doesn't spend time with them, or why she pawns them off on any stranger. It also isn't doing society a favor by adding an unwanted child to the growing population pressure.

If you saw me with my dog, you'd actually probably be nauseated to your stomach. We spoon at night. :love:

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yposhelley said:
You see, I just think that the suffering is all the worse when the child is abandoned. They don't understand why their mom is angry all the time, or why she doesn't spend time with them, or why she pawns them off on any stranger. It also isn't doing society a favor by adding an unwanted child to the growing population pressure.

If you saw me with my dog, you'd actually probably be nauseated to your stomach. We spoon at night. :love:


Oh. probably not. My black lab and my German Shepard sleep on the bed with us.
 
No offense guys, but lets get back on topic...

Feel free to start a thread about sleeping with your dogs in medical school if you want ;)
 
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NEATOMD said:
No offense guys, but lets get back on topic...

Feel free to start a thread about sleeping with your dogs in medical school if you want ;)

Nah. The topic is pretty played out.
 
Panda Bear said:
Nah. The topic is pretty played out.

You don't think there are new, fresh angles that SDN can bring to the abortion debate? I think this is fertile ground for breakthroughs. Let's not forget that it was on SDN that the issue of affirmative action was finally solved.
 
sacrament said:
You don't think there are new, fresh angles that SDN can bring to the abortion debate? I think this is fertile ground for breakthroughs. Let's not forget that it was on SDN that the issue of affirmative action was finally solved.
LOL

No, you're confused. SDN ended slavery.
 
sacrament said:
You don't think there are new, fresh angles that SDN can bring to the abortion debate? I think this is fertile ground for breakthroughs. Let's not forget that it was on SDN that the issue of affirmative action was finally solved.


Dude, I have stayed away from the everyone forum more-or-less because every problem known to man has been solved. I just have nothing more to add about Iraq, Iran, the Palestinians, the Economy, the Republicans, the Democrats, and etc.

We need to index the posts so instead of arguing we can just write, "Oh yeah, well 9/12/03 Thread 3 Post 7 paragraph 2!"

To which someone might reply, "But what about 10/4/05 Thread 3 Post 12 paragraph 6?"

"Oh, go 8/9/04 Thread 5 yourself."
 
This thread was doomed when I started posting. I'm an official thread-killer for any kind of debate topic. :D
 
Oh, and for the record: My chocolate lab sleeps on the bed on one side, my miniature dachshund sleeps under the covers between my husband and I in any hole between us he can find. In the morning, both dogs have their heads on the pillows with us. :love: I love my dogs.
 
ShyRem said:
Oh, and for the record: My chocolate lab sleeps on the bed on one side, my miniature dachshund sleeps under the covers between my husband and I in any hole between us he can find. In the morning, both dogs have their heads on the pillows with us. :love: I love my dogs.


Threesomes are the best.

Side note-almost all small dog owners I have talked to say their dog prefers to sleep under the covers. It must be a small breed thing. My rottie definitely prefers to sleep on top. Makes it a bit difficult at night when you are trying to move a 100 pound beast around so you can get more covers.

Oh yeah, I guess I should mention abortion, abortion, abortion.
 
I love where this thread has gone. We are in the process of adopting a greyhound. I thought their gentle nature would be good for my gentle 2 year old and our two cats. We are looking at one right now named "Pancake."
 
gdbaby said:
I love where this thread has gone. We are in the process of adopting a greyhound. I thought their gentle nature would be good for my gentle 2 year old and our two cats. We are looking at one right now named "Pancake."

i would love a greyhound. or a whippet! but i am not home nearly enough to be a good dog mom, so it's not going to happen until my life settles down or i live with a sig other who also wants a dog. my cat'll have to do for now. he's more like a house ornament than anything else, though. :laugh:
 
Panda Bear said:
We need to index the posts so instead of arguing we can just write, "Oh yeah, well 9/12/03 Thread 3 Post 7 paragraph 2!"

To which someone might reply, "But what about 10/4/05 Thread 3 Post 12 paragraph 6?"

"Oh, go 8/9/04 Thread 5 yourself."


hahhha, wow, i actually enjoyed that panda, kudos
 
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yposhelley said:
Oh, and in case your were wondering? I have a Rottweiler who I love almost more than anyone in the world. One day a few years ago I came home to see the ugliest, mangiest (it was hereditary mange) dog in the neighborhood humping her in the backyard. I took her to the Vet and she had a doggy abortion. It just wasn't a good time in either of our lives to have a litter of puppies. I'm happy to say that she has since experienced the joys of motherhood; a proud mother of 11! And I have never thought twice about it. The last thing this world needed was a bunch of unwanted mangy Rottweiler mutts running around terrorizing the neighborhood.

I just have to say that I am pro-choice and really agree with trustwomen's arguments but with regards to your dog--why wasn't she spayed to begin with? I live in the south where the problem with strays is simply unreal in proportions, and the first to get killed are the pit bulls and the rottweillers. Simply too many of them that no one wants. Were you planning to breed her?

Anyways, my husband and I have a bassett hound (courtesy of basset rescue of georgia www.bhrg.org) that prefers to sleep on top of the covers, too. He weighs 50lb. He barks a lot in his sleep though when he's dreaming and sometimes kicks his legs like he's running in his sleep, too. It's very cute.
 
Panda Bear said:
Dude, I have stayed away from the everyone forum more-or-less because every problem known to man has been solved. I just have nothing more to add about Iraq, Iran, the Palestinians, the Economy, the Republicans, the Democrats, and etc.

We need to index the posts so instead of arguing we can just write, "Oh yeah, well 9/12/03 Thread 3 Post 7 paragraph 2!"

To which someone might reply, "But what about 10/4/05 Thread 3 Post 12 paragraph 6?"

"Oh, go 8/9/04 Thread 5 yourself."

ha, nice! I've said before that I'd eventually like to have posted so much that I can go into SDN syndication and never have to write another original thought again. (Actually, I think I stopped with the original thoughts in 2004, now I just type because I like the sound the keyboard makes.)
 
pillowhead said:
I just have to say that I am pro-choice and really agree with trustwomen's arguments but with regards to your dog--why wasn't she spayed to begin with? I live in the south where the problem with strays is simply unreal in proportions, and the first to get killed are the pit bulls and the rottweillers. Simply too many of them that no one wants. Were you planning to breed her?



I hadn't spayed her yet because I wanted her to have a litter of Rottweiler puppies. After she had that litter, I had her spayed. I completely agree with you about the unwanted spay problem; I lived in a area where there was a 3:1 dog to person ratio. Not only that, but I didn't want her to have more than 1 litter, because I don't trust people with Rottweilers. Too many people get them for the wrong reasons. It was a hassle trying to make sure they went to the right people. Plus, anyone who has had puppies before knows how much of a heartbreak it is to give them away. :(
 
First off, trustwomen - those are some great posts! I am sure with the experiences you've had (personally and as a counselor) you are more qualified than most people to debate on this issue; and kudos on using facts rather than emotions or empty statements.

To those pro-lifers on here I have this to ask - what about all those women that will die as a result of abortion restrictions? Outlawing abortion will GUARANTEE deaths from sepsis from botched do-it-youself or underground abortions. This is widely known and accepted and it happened in the past. I am not even mentioning the deaths of children who will be either dumpster babies or will die due to parental neglect. So while you can debate the nebulous issue of whether a blastocyst is life or not (and there will never be a clear cut answer to this), women and children - whose vitality is not a matter of debate- will be suffering and dying as a result of anti-abortion legislature. By lobbying for abortion restrictions you are dooming to death real human beings. Isn't that murder?

The point is that outlawing abortions will bring on more suffering than it will alleviate. It isn't a solution to anything. The issue of whether a fetus is life or not can and won't ever be defined clearly enough to justify all the misfortune that outlawed abortions will cause. Or perhaps you think that those women deserve to die because they didn't think before they had sex? Majority of abortions are had not by grown middle class women but by teenagers or those with poor education and poor parenting. In a utopian society people can have mature rationalizations about the consequences of sex starting from puberty. But this has nothing to do with the real world. Would you like to be held responsible for your actions at 13 years of age for the rest of your life? Can you blame a girl who grew up with abusive parents in an underprivileged neighborhood for not knowing better? Does she deserve to die for it? You say she has a choice but that's just rhetoric -- she doesn't. Some women do, but it is not legally or ethically possible to separate them when performing abortions. How can you guys be so adamant about saving fetuses, who are not even conscious of their evironment, and yet dismiss the atrocious deaths that women, scared, desperate, alone, in pain, will necessarily suffer. How is that compassionate?
 
yellowcat322 said:
.

To those pro-lifers on here I have this to ask - what about all those women that will die as a result of abortion restrictions? Outlawing abortion will GUARANTEE deaths from sepsis from botched do-it-youself or underground abortions...

Generally, and not just in regard to abortion, people have got to accept responsibilty for their own actions. Might as well ask the question about anything illegal and harmful that people do. I mean, people die all the time from drugs cut with harmful crap. Or they overdose because quality control on illegal drugs doesn't comply with ISO 9000 standards. Is this an argument to legalize drugs? (Maybe it is?)

Sorry. You are not responsible for your patient's decisions but only for their medical treatment while they are in your care. Nothing worse than the resident or attending who expects you to follow the patient home.
 
Panda Bear said:
Generally, and not just in regard to abortion, people have got to accept responsibilty for their own actions. Might as well ask the question about anything illegal and harmful that people do. I mean, people die all the time from drugs cut with harmful crap. Or they overdose because quality control on illegal drugs doesn't comply with ISO 9000 standards. Is this an argument to legalize drugs? (Maybe it is?)



Sorry. You are not responsible for your patient's decisions but only for their medical treatment while they are in your care. Nothing worse than the resident or attending who expects you to follow the patient home.


It's easy to say: accept responsibility for you actions. Imagine you are a teenage girl, parenting is poor or non-existent in your life, you have no money, you can't go to your parents, you can't psychologically deal with a child. Women in this state will likely do ANYTHING to get out of this situation. This includes illegal and dangerous abortive methods. You can't possibly understand the pshychological state of a woman in such a situation. All you can say is: tough luck -- you'll have to pay for your mistakes. And this considering the poor level of sex education, the fact that media promotes teenage sex, the social pressure on a girl to have sex early and a myriad of other factors - we as a society have a responsibility to help prevent this situation not worsen it. Outlawing abortions won't make teenage girls all of a sudden become wise beyond their years and say "hey, I shoudn't be having sex." it'll just make them more likely to die from botched abortions.


My post wasn't in reference to us as doctors, but to us as members of society in general. Moreover, the fact that we ARE in the medical field, should make us even more keenly aware of the social problems out there that lead to medical issues. No you are not responsible for your individual patient's choices and decisions but why would you push for a law that would make your patients more likely to make bad healthcare choices for themselves; a law that would deny women safe healthcare
 
Today the number of abortion cases investigated each year averages close to 100, according to Luz McNaughton and Ellen Mitchell, policy consultants with Ipas, an abortion rights advocacy group in Chapel Hill, N.C., who gathered the statistics for a study to be published later this year by the American Journal of Public Health.
From NYT article.

El Salvador Population: 6.8 Million
If we assume for ever 1 case investigated 100 abortions occurred, we find that the number of abortions would be ~10,000 (This is a complete shot in the dark. I know.). Abortions (per 1000) = 1.47

United States: 295 Million
Reasons for abortions
According to the Alan Guttmacher Institute, there were 1.31 million abortions in the US in 2000, and cases of rape or incest accounted for 1.0% of abortions in 2000. Another study revealed that women reported the following reasons for choosing an abortion: The Alan Guttmacher Institute is a research institute that provides global and U.S. specific demographic statistics on reproductive matters such as birth control and abortion. ...

25.5% Want to postpone childbearing
21.3% Cannot afford a baby
14.1% Has relationship problem or partner does not want pregnancy
12.2% Too young; parent(s) or other(s) object to pregnancy
10.8% Having a child will disrupt education or job
7.9% Want no (more) children
3.3% Risk to fetal health
2.8% Risk to maternal health
2.1% Rape, Incest, Other
From Nationmaster.com

Abortions (per 1000) = 4.44

Correct me if my numbers are wrong.
 
Though this thread is getting back on track (sort of), I think we're headed in a nasty direction anyway. So I don't feel bad about saying the following:

I think it's weird that we hotly contend that abortion should remain legal in the US on the grounds that it is the woman's body (despite the fact the fetus is being killed), when the more open and shut case, euthanasia, is flat-out illegal. Our dogs can die with dignity, why not people?
 
yellowcat322 said:
It's easy to say: accept responsibility for you actions. Imagine you are a teenage girl, parenting is poor or non-existent in your life, you have no money, you can't go to your parents, you can't psychologically deal with a child. Women in this state will likely do ANYTHING to get out of this situation. This includes illegal and dangerous abortive methods. You can't possibly understand the pshychological state of a woman in such a situation. All you can say is: tough luck -- you'll have to pay for your mistakes. And this considering the poor level of sex education, the fact that media promotes teenage sex, the social pressure on a girl to have sex early and a myriad of other factors - we as a society have a responsibility to help prevent this situation not worsen it. Outlawing abortions won't make teenage girls all of a sudden become wise beyond their years and say "hey, I shoudn't be having sex." it'll just make them more likely to die from botched abortions.

And yet, if we never expect responsibility from anyone at any time when will people be responsible? I have bona-fide adult patients in their thirties for crying out loud who don't have the self-discipline to call the local free clinic to set up their own follow-up appointments after their discharge. Basically, if I don't call and set up the appointment for them they wont go because their modus vivendi is to sit around waiting for things to happen to them. About the only exertion many people will make is the struggle to get disability at which point they consider themselves to have arrived.

I repeat, people are free agents. By and large they act for and from their own interests but because it is easier to act irresponsiblely than to exercise self-discipline many people make bad choices. You may not remember it because you are a little younger than I am but people were not always so cavalier about their duties and the consequences of their actions. Out of wedlock births used to be rare. Same with single parent families even in the much maligned black community.

What happened?
 
Panda Bear said:
And yet, if we never expect responsibility from anyone at any time when will people be responsible? I have bona-fide adult patients in their thirties for crying out loud who don't have the self-discipline to call the local free clinic to set up their own follow-up appointments after their discharge. Basically, if I don't call and set up the appointment for them they wont go because their modus vivendi is to sit around waiting for things to happen to them. About the only exertion many people will make is the struggle to get disability at which point they consider themselves to have arrived.
QUOTE]


Perhaps, you just don't know how to communicate with your patients. I believe you are using self discipline incorrectly. People don't call because they don't understand you. It is not that your patients are lazy waiting for things to happen, which a lot of literature actually states. Your mentality is why medicine is failing to address the problems of the underserved, underinsured, and the underprivileged.
 
Faust said:
Panda Bear said:
And yet, if we never expect responsibility from anyone at any time when will people be responsible? I have bona-fide adult patients in their thirties for crying out loud who don't have the self-discipline to call the local free clinic to set up their own follow-up appointments after their discharge. Basically, if I don't call and set up the appointment for them they wont go because their modus vivendi is to sit around waiting for things to happen to them. About the only exertion many people will make is the struggle to get disability at which point they consider themselves to have arrived.
QUOTE]


Perhaps, you just don't know how to communicate with your patients. I believe you are using self discipline incorrectly. People don't call because they don't understand you. It is not that your patients are lazy waiting for things to happen, which a lot of literature actually states. Your mentality is why medicine is failing to address the problems of the underserved, underinsured, and the underprivileged.

Bull. With the exception of my mentally challenged patients, everybody knows how to dial a phone and no matter how poor they are everybody has a cell phone. It also does not take an advanced degree to understand the following statement:

"Mr. Smith. Here is a prescription for the medicine you need to lower you blood pressure which was dangerously high when I first met you. If you call this number they will give you an appointment so you can start seeing a doctor on a regular basis because your health is very bad and if you don't do something about it you will be blind and possibly dead in five years. Best of luck. Nice meeting you."

They are poor and lazy but they aren't stupid.
 
Panda Bear said:
Faust said:
They are poor and lazy but they aren't stupid.


This is what the Anglo/Europeans said about the Mexicans when they first encountered them in the New World, North America. It does not surprise me that your bigotry is rooted in this type of particular logic.

If you came from a poor family and your patients knew that. I bet they would listen. The problem is in your logic. Your inability to empathize or sympathize with the poor is recasted as patient laziness. Its them right? Right? Perhaps there is something wrong with your genes.
 
I don't believe I'm jumping in here, but I've gotten tired of reading (and during medical school discussing) abortion without ever seeming to get to the crux of the reason for the debate, which is (in my mind) the whole debate rests on one central question, and depending on what you believe most people will fall squarely on one side or the other, and it is such a core belief that is unlikely to change in most people-- so discussing it ad nauseum in medical school is of little value. The central question is whether or not a fetus is a human being/when does human life begin.

If you believe that human life begins at conception, or in the first few weeks, then OF COURSE abortion is wrong. If you really believe life begins at conception, then it IS morally wrong to participate in abortion in any way unless the mother's health is in danger (including referrals-- if you ascribe to this position a referral would be morally akin to hiring a hit man, rather than committing a murder yourself), because if you really believe it is a living human being at that point, then it would be murder, and no different than killing a newborn.

If you do not believe that human life begins at conception, or does not begin until a certain point (ie birth), then OF COURSE abortion is right. If the fetus is not a human being, but is just tissue then it can't be wrong to remove it, and no woman should have to think twice about it, anymore than they would about removing a mole. Inconvienence is ample justification for removing it.

The problem of course is that science hasn't/can't define the moment when human life begins. Hence we all make that decision for ourselves, based either on our spiritual beliefs or what we've been taught by parents or teachers, and our beliefs on abortion follow accordingly. Unfortunately, rather than acknowledge what the actual issue/question is, too many other social/political, etc factors have clouded the issue. Both sides argue the point based on their underlying belief, and both sides ignore that the other side is right IF their underlying belief is true. And since this fact gets ignored, neither side can ever see where the other side is coming from.

Since we can't prove conclusively when human life actually begins there is very little chance of having meaningful debate on the issue. Instead the issue becomes a smokescreen for the other social agendas of both parties, and specious and unsupportable arguments (that sometimes become ludicrous) are made by both sides. Data from either side is somewhat suspect, given the inherent difficulties in collecting such information and the inevitable biases of the collecting organizations. Hence we lack good data on the issues. For example don't really know if outlawing abortions would prevent abortions, nor do we know what the rate of morbidity/mortality would actually be for illegal abortions as obviously finding out the number of illegal abortions occurring (needed for the denominator) would be next to impossible. We can have our suspicions about what the date might say, but we don't really know, and we all know that the data can be surprising when things are just assumed. So we don't have good data to bring to the argument, or to be used in making social policy (even if we could divorce the emotional context from the issue). Bottom line-- I'd rather see the energy and passion that people display in arguing with each other used on the issues we can actually make progress on, or at the very least developing good research that allows us to have some factual, unbiased information on which to make policy decisions. Yeah, that's a pipe dream, I know.
 
Faust said:
Panda Bear said:
This is what the Anglo/Europeans said about the Mexicans when they first encountered them in the New World, North America. It does not surprise me that your bigotry is rooted in this type of particular logic.

If you came from a poor family and your patients knew that. I bet they would listen. The problem is in your logic. Your inability to empathize or sympathize with the poor is recasted as patient laziness. Its them right? Right? Perhaps there is something wrong with your genes.

"Please call this free clinic and set up a free apointment. Here are your free prescriptions for free medications."

Wow. What a logical conundrum!
 
gdbaby said:
I love where this thread has gone. We are in the process of adopting a greyhound. I thought their gentle nature would be good for my gentle 2 year old and our two cats. We are looking at one right now named "Pancake."

I hesitate to chime in on this thread, and do so now only to say "Go for it!" in regard to adopting a greyhound. They're amazing dogs. You won't be sorry. :)

To keep this post semi on-topic, I sympathize with Panda's frustration, and frankly, there's only so much an individual physician can do for someone until they're willing to do something for themselves. That doesn't mean we should stop trying, however.

Regarding the abortion debate, I'm not going to touch that with a ten-foot pole. ;)

Sydney, ca. 1995
sydney.jpg
 
Scubadoc said:
There's a really interesting article on the the New York Times right now about El Salvador, where abortion has been criminalized. It's really long but quite an interesting look at where we could be headed.

Little blurb: Ever imagine what it might be like to live in a place that voted to thoroughly criminalize abortion? A place that sent abortion providers to jail? That policed hospitals? That investigated a woman's uterus? Welcome to 21st-century El Salvador, the state of anti-abortion.

What a horrifying article. Is that what we want as physicians? To be forced to report sick women and terrified women to the police so that forensic vagina inspectors can come and inspect the scene of the crime? You may be against abortion, but I don't see how any reasonable person can be for this situation. And as is pointed out, rich women will still just fly to Miami and get a safe abortion anyway. Where are all the pro-life people when it comes to providing these women good social services to help them cope with their unwanted pregnancies if abortion is to be illegal? All most of them can do is sit on the sidelines, shake their fingers, and say "Tsk, tsk. Should have been more responsible." Well, great, that's real helpful once the unwanted pregnancy already exists.

The (lack of) response from the congressman in the United States being asked if he would prosecute women who tried to get an abortion if abortion were illegal in the US is very telling.

Please actually read the article (all 9 pgs) if you respond.
 
Faust, all I can say is just WAIT until you have patients. Panda, there is no arguing with people who haven't seen the same folks day in and day out until they actually start seeing with their own eyes.
 
Faust said:
Panda Bear said:
This is what the Anglo/Europeans said about the Mexicans when they first encountered them in the New World, North America. It does not surprise me that your bigotry is rooted in this type of particular logic.

If you came from a poor family and your patients knew that. I bet they would listen. The problem is in your logic. Your inability to empathize or sympathize with the poor is recasted as patient laziness. Its them right? Right? Perhaps there is something wrong with your genes.

There is nothing wrong with their genes or mine. The current cultural millieu in which many of the poor operate as it does not encourage personal responsibility has conditioned them to be very passive about their own lives. Almost to the point of being spectators.
 
Die Thread, Die!!!
 
DRDARIA said:
I don't believe I'm jumping in here, but I've gotten tired of reading (and during medical school discussing) abortion without ever seeming to get to the crux of the reason for the debate, which is (in my mind) the whole debate rests on one central question, and depending on what you believe most people will fall squarely on one side or the other, and it is such a core belief that is unlikely to change in most people-- so discussing it ad nauseum in medical school is of little value. The central question is whether or not a fetus is a human being/when does human life begin.

If you believe that human life begins at conception, or in the first few weeks, then OF COURSE abortion is wrong. If you really believe life begins at conception, then it IS morally wrong to participate in abortion in any way unless the mother's health is in danger (including referrals-- if you ascribe to this position a referral would be morally akin to hiring a hit man, rather than committing a murder yourself), because if you really believe it is a living human being at that point, then it would be murder, and no different than killing a newborn.

If you do not believe that human life begins at conception, or does not begin until a certain point (ie birth), then OF COURSE abortion is right. If the fetus is not a human being, but is just tissue then it can't be wrong to remove it, and no woman should have to think twice about it, anymore than they would about removing a mole. Inconvienence is ample justification for removing it.

The problem of course is that science hasn't/can't define the moment when human life begins. Hence we all make that decision for ourselves, based either on our spiritual beliefs or what we've been taught by parents or teachers, and our beliefs on abortion follow accordingly. Unfortunately, rather than acknowledge what the actual issue/question is, too many other social/political, etc factors have clouded the issue. Both sides argue the point based on their underlying belief, and both sides ignore that the other side is right IF their underlying belief is true. And since this fact gets ignored, neither side can ever see where the other side is coming from.

Since we can't prove conclusively when human life actually begins there is very little chance of having meaningful debate on the issue. Instead the issue becomes a smokescreen for the other social agendas of both parties, and specious and unsupportable arguments (that sometimes become ludicrous) are made by both sides. Data from either side is somewhat suspect, given the inherent difficulties in collecting such information and the inevitable biases of the collecting organizations. Hence we lack good data on the issues. For example don't really know if outlawing abortions would prevent abortions, nor do we know what the rate of morbidity/mortality would actually be for illegal abortions as obviously finding out the number of illegal abortions occurring (needed for the denominator) would be next to impossible. We can have our suspicions about what the date might say, but we don't really know, and we all know that the data can be surprising when things are just assumed. So we don't have good data to bring to the argument, or to be used in making social policy (even if we could divorce the emotional context from the issue). Bottom line-- I'd rather see the energy and passion that people display in arguing with each other used on the issues we can actually make progress on, or at the very least developing good research that allows us to have some factual, unbiased information on which to make policy decisions. Yeah, that's a pipe dream, I know.


WEll that's exactly the point I was trying to make: the issue of whether a fetus is life or not is and will remain a subjective one. And while all we can do is try to respect each other's opinion of this, I still think it is morally wrong to try and impose a policy on those who don't believe that the fetus is human life. Moreover, it is morally wrong because, like I said before, women will die because of this policy - although the exact numbers are hard to predict. So if I had to choose between saving fetuses whose vitality is and will always be questioned or saving women who everyone agrees with are trully alive and suffering, well that's a no brainer to me. And while we're at it, if pro-lifers truly believe that the human life begins at conception, why is it that they almost always don't mind abortions for the health of the mother? I mean if they equate fetus to a newborn then it's illogical. No one would say it's ok to kill a newborn to prevent his/her mother from dying. So then, the issue of whether fetus is life or not is cloudy even for those who identify themselves clearly on one or the other side.

And yeah I agree it's a frustrating debate, but so is debate on any other hot button issue, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't talk about it. This is an issue which will affect our country as a whole and have a profound impact not only on healthcare but on our national moral and ethical code. People need to stay passionate about this, exchange ideas, formulate arguments and yeah get better research to the extent its possible.
 
yellowcat322 said:
WEll that's exactly the point I was trying to make: the issue of whether a fetus is life or not is and will remain a subjective one. And while all we can do is try to respect each other's opinion of this, I still think it is morally wrong to try and impose a policy on those who don't believe that the fetus is human life.
There are people who believe that adults having sex with children is actually normal.... A lot of views differ from person to person, but in general I think it's best to take a safe stance...
Moreover, it is morally wrong because, like I said before, women will die because of this policy - although the exact numbers are hard to predict.
If there is an exception made for the health of the mother, then why should women die because of an antiabortion policy?
So if I had to choose between saving fetuses whose vitality is and will always be questioned or saving women who everyone agrees with are trully alive and suffering, well that's a no brainer to me.
The choice isn't that simple.... If you could spare someone a little pain but in order to do it you had to pour a much greater amount of pain on someone else, would you do it?

And while we're at it, if pro-lifers truly believe that the human life begins at conception, why is it that they almost always don't mind abortions for the health of the mother? I mean if they equate fetus to a newborn then it's illogical. No one would say it's ok to kill a newborn to prevent his/her mother from dying. So then, the issue of whether fetus is life or not is cloudy even for those who identify themselves clearly on one or the other side.

A lot of the cases that I would consider a valid "health of the mother" cases are ones in which the baby wouldn't survive anyway- ectopic fetus, etc.

And yeah I agree it's a frustrating debate, but so is debate on any other hot button issue, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't talk about it. This is an issue which will affect our country as a whole and have a profound impact not only on healthcare but on our national moral and ethical code. People need to stay passionate about this, exchange ideas, formulate arguments and yeah get better research to the extent its possible.

Some of my best friends are pro-choice, but it's not good to oversimplify the views of either side....
 
There are people who believe that adults having sex with children is actually normal.... A lot of views differ from person to person, but in general I think it's best to take a safe stance...

Safe for whom? Not for the women who will be dying from sepsis as a result of back alley abortions.

If there is an exception made for the health of the mother, then why should women die because of an antiabortion policy?

Because many will turn to unsafe abortive methods when safe ones become unavailable. Outlawing abortions will not make women who are determined to have one any less determined.

The choice isn't that simple.... If you could spare someone a little pain but in order to do it you had to pour a much greater amount of pain on someone else, would you do it?

Again, the pain of fetus is questionable, whereas the pain of the mother is not. And can you really define "a little pain". Maybe if you're referring to the woman who aborts because she'd rather have a baby a couple of years later. But what about fetuses that are products of rape, or an abusive relationship or incest? What about the teenage girls who will have to alter their entire life because the condom broke? What about fetuses who have extensive malformations, and though still viable, will have a non-existent quality of life? How can you quantify that pain?

Saluki said:
Some of my best friends are pro-choice, but it's not good to oversimplify the views of either side....

Sorry, I didn't mean to oversimplify. To tell you the truth I am just terrified of living in a nation where women will be persecuted for abortions and where an arbitrary opinion of some will be imposed on all, to the detriment of women's health and well-being.
 
yellowcat322 said:
Moreover, it is morally wrong because, like I said before, women will die because of this policy - although the exact numbers are hard to predict. So if I had to choose between saving fetuses whose vitality is and will always be questioned or saving women who everyone agrees with are trully alive and suffering, well that's a no brainer to me. And while we're at it, if pro-lifers truly believe that the human life begins at conception, why is it that they almost always don't mind abortions for the health of the mother? I mean if they equate fetus to a newborn then it's illogical. No one would say it's ok to kill a newborn to prevent his/her mother from dying.

.

Well, actually if it a consistent argument to say that allowing abortions to save the mother's life is alright. It is equivalant to running into a building to save a life, and having to choose one to save another. No one would would say that only saving the one would be murder of the other. Or it could be considered "justifiable homicide". However you prefer it. However, bear in mind these are NOT the majority of abortions.

It is also consistent to say that outlawing abortions, which will undoutedly cause suffering and death, to save a greater number of lives and suffering, is moral. I'm not saying I agree with outlawing abortion, but that the argument does follow logically if you look at it from the point of view of doing the most good for the most people (and for the point of this argument, I'm assuming that the person making the arguement absolutely believes that a fetus is a human life).

Saying that fetus vitality is and always will be questioned is the sort of thing I'm referring to in regards to it comes down to underlyling belief. Truth is we don't know what fetuses do or do not feel, and age of viability is always changing as medical technology improves. Do we use the ability to survive outside the womb as the criteria? It has changed over the years. Do we use the ability to survive without intervention? In that case is a 38 week baby that needs support to survive not a real person? When do they become a person? With the first spontanous breath outside the womb? (I believe this is used in some states for legal purposes, but I could be wrong about that). Maybe some day we will have technology to tell us unequivocally what fetuses do and do not suffer, and when they become "conscious". The question is, if that information becomes available and disproves one position or the other, will anyone be willing to change their minds?

The thing that drives me nuts about this debate is that say, hypothetically, we agree that there would be no abortions past 24 weeks, and no PBA's, and that there would be no restriction to access on abortions to that point for any cases of rape/incest/danger to the mother (and lets just assume that we could accurately determine such with our magic wands). Then would anybody change their minds about the issue? No. Because these are rare situations on both sides, and these arguments are used by both sides to increase the emotional content of their arguments and ignore the facts-- because we don't really have good facts on either side. We don't know when human life can be classified as such, we don't know how much a fetus suffers (and each side assumes what supports their position), and we haven't ever tried any really comprehensive pregnancy prevention strategies (nor do we know which form of education works best).

I'm not saying we shouldn't discuss the issue, I'm just saying with the current state of knowledge we can't discuss it intelligiently, and I fear neither side really wants to, as both sides are so entrenched in their positions they can't see it from the other side. So efforts should be put where we can agree, and maybe help-- into pregnancy prevention, education, etcetera.
 
yellowcat322 said:
I am not even mentioning the deaths of children who will be either dumpster babies or will die due to parental neglect.
A bit of flawed logic there.

Saying that it is ok to allow abortions to prevent those babies from suffering and death is similar saying that it would be ok to systematically go through Africa and annhialite (sp?) populations with high HIV prevalence to prevent people from dying from AIDs. Consider that we could prevent alot of pain and suffering by wiping them out. No more children growing up without parents and being born with terminal illnesses. No more being malnourished...

There is a better answer. The alternatives aren't going to be nearly as easy
(or cheap) as nuking the continent of Africa, but I certainly believe they are worth the cost and effort.

What about those women who "will die" without an abortion? What about the women who die during abortions? Maybe instead of improving techniques to eliminate the babies, we should focus on developing techniques to save both. It is doable. For instance, the age for which babies are able to survive outside of the mother is constantly becoming earlier and earlier. Maybe it would be possible in many cases to deliver the baby before it become a danger to the mother's life.

Maybe, instead of drudging on and arguing over the issue we can work on finding alternatives to abortion that everyone can agree with. What if we focused all this debate energy into finding those solutions? We're all smart talented, people... I know we could come up with something.

I think we're all asking the wrong question (Should abortion be legal?). Maybe a better question is: Does abortion have to be the best option? I don't think it does.
 
Scubadoc said:
You'll never, ever find this. Why? Because abortions have been going on since ancient times. Come on. There will always be a woman out there who does not want the fetus inside her.

history of abortion
"Never say never"
No human ever flew before the Wright brothers. It was said to be impossible before they did it.

No one believed it was possible to land on the moon.

Many diseases thought to be incurable have been cured.

Complacently accepting "the way things are" didn't lead to any of these things.

There are millions of starving people around the world today. Should we accept this? It think its better to try and do something about it.

I fail to see how saying "There will always be a woman out there who does not want the fetus inside her." proves your point. There will always be people out there who believe things are morally ok, that others believe are wrong. For instance, there are people who believe that killing certain other people is ok, there always will be. I don't think this justifies us allowing them to blow up sky scrapers. Should we buy them plane tickets and give them weapons to help them?
 
Scubadoc said:
My point was that you will never be able to find an alternative that EVERYONE agrees with.
Point taken, but I still don't think that is a good excuse not to try.

I'd imagine that there is no one thing that EVERYONE agrees on. If you look hard and long enough you can find someone to disagree with you on anything.

Side note: As for myself, I don't have to look far, I have a brother who'll disagree with me on anything, no matter how strong the evidence against his stand. (He's in law school right now, oddly enough)

How about this: Let's try to find an alternative that is more accepted and safer (for mother and fetus) than abortion.
*Edited to add the delio about my brother*
**Edited again because I can't spell**
 
NEATOMD said:
Point taken, but I still don't think that is a good excuse not to try.

I'd imagine that there is no one thing that EVERYONE agrees on. If you look hard and long enough you can find someone to disagree with you on anything.

Side note: As for myself, I don't have to look far, I have a brother who'll disagree with me on anything, no matter how strong the evidence against his stand. (He's in law school right now, oddly enough)

How about this: Let's try to find an alternative that is more accepted and safer (for mother and fetus) than abortion.
*Edited to add the delio about my brother*
**Edited again because I can't spell**

What do you mean by this? Improving the chances of survival of the fetus and reducing the risk of pregnancy to the mother will not solve the abortion issue, except in those cases where abortion is performed due to issues of health and viability. You are not addressing the psychological aspect of not wanting to carry a fetus to term. Nothing can be invented or implemented to alleviate that.
 
wow! i didn't expect this thread to unfold the way it has. hopefully, i can contribute after i take the mcat this next weekend :eek:
 
yellowcat322 said:
What do you mean by this? You are not addressing the psychological aspect of not wanting to carry a fetus to term. Nothing can be invented or implemented to alleviate that.
Maybe we could find a procedure to transfer a fetus from a pregnant woman who doesn't want the fetus to another who would like to, but cannot become pregnant. Ever consider that?

What about the psychological aspect of wanting to have children but not being able to?

What about the psychological aspect of having had an abortion and regretting it later?

What about the psychological aspect of living in a society that kills what one believes are humans deserving full human rights simply because those humans cannot speak to have a voice?

Continuing abortions doesn't address these problems.
 
StreetGenius said:
wow! i didn't expect this thread to unfold the way it has. hopefully, i can contribute after i take the mcat this next weekend :eek:

Yeah, they always seem to go this way, don't they?

I'm just going to echo the initial posters who suggested contacting Medical Students for Choice (www.ms4c.org) if you are interested in learning to provide abortions. I'm looking into doing their Reproductive Health Externship this summer.

Good luck on the MCAT! :luck:
 
evade said:
Yeah, they always seem to go this way, don't they?

I'm just going to echo the initial posters who suggested contacting Medical Students for Choice (www.ms4c.org) if you are interested in learning to provide abortions. I'm looking into doing their Reproductive Health Externship this summer.

Good luck on the MCAT! :luck:

"Collateral Damage."

"We had to burn the village to save it."

"Reproductive Health."
 
I think elective abortions should widely available and legal under all circumstances, at any age of gestation, no questions asked. I also think it should be mandatory that after or during a woman's second elective abortion, she should be permanently surgically sterilized regardless of her wishes. In other words, you get to make one mistake with your reproductive life and then you have to pay the piper. This puts me simultaneously at both ends of the "freedom" spectrum. This is what life will be like under my rule.
 
the great thing about threads like this is that, eventually, most people will change their minds on the issue.

You just need to add about 15 more pages.
 
Panda Bear said:
"Collateral Damage."

"We had to burn the village to save it."

"Reproductive Health."
What I find a bit amazing is that for an Intern you have an ENORMOUS amount of time to post? Man, so is that what intern life is???!! Or wait is it just you???
 
Flea girl said:
What I find a bit amazing is that for an Intern you have an ENORMOUS amount of time to post? Man, so is that what intern life is???!! Or wait is it just you???
just like a liberal to begin in on the personal attacks. Classic.

:)
 
bigfrank said:
just like a liberal to begin in on the personal attacks. Classic.

:)
Look I was not the one that started all the personal attacks...Sorry to have to say that. I asked a simple question. You seemed to be the one that jumped to all these conclusions. It seems that the conservative right always fails to see their faults yet are quick to judge others!! Look unfortunately you did not heed your own advice! Like you said " DIE THREAD DIE" Or is the whole conservative selective memory thing kicked in again! I am done and I truely wish that we can all move on!
 
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