What is your view of naturopathic doctors?

[PikminOC]

So instead of continuing the discussion you resort to grammar police. Got it.

Oh it continues the discussion.
Shows what base level you are starting from.

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[Wordead]

I'm just glad my maturity and my knowledge finally caught up to my arrogance.

My rate of of arrogance increase has outpaced my rate of knowledge increase.

 

[WingedOx]

My rate of of arrogance increase has outpaced my rate of knowledge increase.

you should work on that...

 

[Wordead]

you should work on that...

Im a surgeon, no need

 

[sunealoneal]

I've never personally visited one, but a close friend with ulcerative colitis has and he's had remarkable success -- infinitely more effective than Remicade. Even if you dismiss it as the placebo effect, which is plausible, do you think he really gives a ****?

Some of these guys are actually damn good at what they do, and they probably think homeopathy is as much nonsense as we do.

They're good at giving placebos?

I get that, but there are quite a few NDs that support mainstream medicine in addition to supplemental therapies.

I also think it's a mistake as physicians to dismiss all anecdotal evidence as crap. If another patient with the same disease as me has found success with a particular treatment, I want to hear about it. Even a 5% success rate is close to some of the mainstream treatment methodologies we accept as "proven". I don't want to defend NDs too much, but I think complete refusal to keep an open mind to some of their ideas is a mistake.

You can't even claim a therapy has a 5% success rate if the evidence is anecdotal.

 

[Promethean]

It occurs to me that we have been making the error that is so commonly made in dealing with criticism from people who support naturopathy. We let them pull out a single, extreme instance where a given medical therapy may be of limited benefit. "Would you radiate THIS, then?" and use it to attempt to discredit the far more common safe and effective use of that proven therapy.

In this same way, they defend naturopathic treatments, ignoring the uncountable incidents of unnecessary and untested interventions to hold up a single instance where a patient may have benefitted (or may simply have experienced a spontaneous remission of symptoms.) They ignore the opportunity cost of spending time, money, and other resources on supplements, dietary changes, etc. which might have been used to pursue effective treatment.

Argument from anecdote is weak and unconvincing. Show me the data. And if you can, then it stops being alternative medicine and becomes evidence based medicine. I still don't get why that is hard to understand? I think reiki is voodoo, but if rigorously designed, peer-reviewed studies found it effective, I'd sign up to learn how to apply it for my patients.

I'm opposed to NDs and others who use pseudoscience to support their claims because I see them as frauds attempting to trick an undereducated populace. If they would frankly admit that they are practicing magic, I'd be okay with that. Some people believe in magic and will still come see them. It is when they try to use the language of medicine to fool people into thinking that they aren't practicing magic, but a better kind of medicine than real medicine... that is offensive to me personally and professionally. It is an unethical ground for a profession to base itself on, and if you continue to defend that, then I have to question your ethics as well.

If there are NDs who legitimately want to help people be healthy and aren't just looking for ways to rook the rubes, then let them study actual medicine. Let them learn the real science underlying their claims, not just memorize lists of herbs that are good for "boosting immunity," whatever that means. Or let them admit that they are shamans, not doctors. What they are doing now is stealing trust by cloaking themselves in the goodwill earned by honest physicians and scientists, and they are causing actual harm to real people. That deserves not just condescension for their "profession" but full-on righteous rage and indignation.

But go on, tell us some more about how giving someone 6 more months of relief from pain and debility is negligible, or that you found some rare and terrible condition which doesn't respond well to a particular treatment.

 

[DocVapor]

Excellent post

Bravo!

 

[ND Student]

I wanted to get peoples views on naturopathic medicine. My cousin is a naturopathic doctor and she seems to be a pretty sharp lady. From what I understand she underwent some pretty rigorous training. I imagine the naturopathic school you are trained at might have a big impact upon your competence. My cousin attended Bastyr Univiersity.

Do you think naturopathic medicine has positive contributions to make to medicine?

I'm an ND student. I withdrew from a US MS/MD program to go to NCNM. It's been great! Just finished my second year. First two years are very similar to MD school. I entered medical school knowing I wanted to do family medicine. NDs are all trained as PCPs. The model is based on health promotion and disease prevention. NDs use the least toxic, least invasive treatments possible to restore health. Best education I could find in family medicine. NDs are scientific in their approach. It's an emerging profession, so there's a lot of politics and misinformation flying around. Anyone can feel free to ask me specific questions. Good luck!

 

[ND Student]

This might be helpful:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-katz-md/the-nature-of-medicine-an_b_5965160.html

 

[loris]

I'm an ND student. I withdrew from Georgetown's CAM MS/MD program to go to NCNM. It's been great! Just finished my second year. First two years are very similar to MD school. I entered medical school knowing I wanted to do family medicine. NDs are all trained as PCPs. The model is based on health promotion and disease prevention. NDs use the least toxic, least invasive treatments possible to restore health. Best education I could find in family medicine . FYI - I'm also published in [redacted]. NDs are scientific in their approach. It's an emerging profession, so there's a lot of politics and misinformation flying around. Anyone can feel free to ask me specific questions. Good luck!

This might be helpful:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-katz-md/the-nature-of-medicine-an_b_5965160.html

 

[AlteredScale]

The model is based on health promotion and disease prevention. NDs use the least toxic, least invasive treatments possible to restore health. Best education I could find in family medicine . FYI - I'm also published in the Harvard Review of Psychiatry. NDs are scientific in their approach. It's an emerging profession, so there's a lot of politics and misinformation flying around. Anyone can feel free to ask me specific questions. Good luck!

What's the title of the article in the review?

As for your statement about ND's being scientific in their approach: can you provide some evidence in the literature that ND therapeutics are indeed effective in patients? It would be nice to see something other than a case report/testimonial/n=1 sort of publication.

 

[atj]

NDs are scientific in their approach. It's an emerging profession, so there's a lot of politics and misinformation flying around. Anyone can feel free to ask me specific questions. Good luck!

Can you explain the science behind homeopathy?

 

[W19]

ND are better than real physicians (MD/DO/DPM/DDS/DMD) because they use natural means to treat patients...

 

[jthedestroyr]

Can you explain the science behind homeopathy?

See picture below

Also equally compelling if you're a south park fan

 

[ERK123]

Can you explain the science behind homeopathy?

Well theres this guy who makes some claims... http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dana-ullman/luc-montagnier-homeopathy-taken-seriously_b_814619.html

 

[loris]

Well theres this guy who makes some claims... http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dana-ullman/luc-montagnier-homeopathy-taken-seriously_b_814619.html

Even the educated and the accomplished can be ignorant. Also, the article's author describes himself as an "Evidence Based Homeopath." Interesting.

 

[atj]

Well theres this guy who makes some claims... http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dana-ullman/luc-montagnier-homeopathy-taken-seriously_b_814619.html

That article was written by Dana Ullman, an American author, publisher, journalist, and proponent in the field of homeopathy who holds an MPH from UC-Berkeley (Wikipedia). One quotation he uses in the article as proof of homeopathy: "High dilutions of something are not nothing. They are water structures which mimic the original molecules." My question still stands...can you explain the science behind homeopathy? That article definitely doesn't.

 

[ERK123]

My question still stands...can you explain the science behind homeopathy?

Nope.
edit: I also never claimed to be able to explain the science behind homeopathy, nor did I claim that homeopathy has any validity.

 

[jthedestroyr]

I thought I answered your question with my picture representation.

 

[MetalloBetalactamase]

I plan to market homeopathic smartphones. I'm going to use one iPhone 6 and smash it to tiny, microscopic pieces and imbed each of those pieces in inert black lucite. I'll decorate the outside with some buttons and runes. The theory behind homeopathy is solid too, though...so don't try to 'splain to me why this plan will not work. I'll haz millions, and you scienticians and medicalizers will be the sorry...hee hee hee. I'ma be soooooo rich.

 

[JubalHarshaw]

Even the educated and the accomplished can be ignorant. Also, the article's author describes himself as an "Evidence Based Homeopath." Interesting.

Most oxymoronic title ever.

 

[sandstorm223]

Naturopaths? Bunch. Of. Quacks.

 

[BamaNicole]

I used to work with a ND who was convincing patients she could cure HPV with green tea and vitamin C tablets without any proof it did any good for the patients

Her regimen included more supplements that would cost over 200 bucks for the patient.....of which she got a kickback. People would also pay 200 bucks a pop to see her.

Needless to say this person has tainted my view of naturopathic physicians

 

[ACSurgeon]

I used to work with a ND who was convincing patients she could cure HPV with green tea and vitamin C tablets without any proof it did any good for the patients

Her regimen included more supplements that would cost over 200 bucks for the patient.....of which she got a kickback. People would also pay 200 bucks a pop to see her.

Needless to say this person has tainted my view of naturopathic physicians

The definition of physician is one who is legally or otherwise qualified to practice medicine or healing people. Naturopaths do NOT fit this definition.

Also, why won't this thread go away?

 

[WingedOx]

Most oxymoronic title ever.

...or possibly wonderfully ironic SDN handle.

 

[ND Student]

Can you explain the science behind homeopathy?

Homeopathy is a distinct medical model from naturopathic medicine, although it is often utilized by NDs. MDs and DOs use homeopathy quite often as well. I have found homeopathy to be quite useful as a medical model. It is great for pattern recognition and provides a comprehensive, holistic medical model that takes into account emotions, mind, and spirit, as well as the physical, and integrates them in a way that is approachable. NDs are all about treating the whole person, but the vast majority of NDs do not rely on homeopathy alone, just like the vast majority of MDs and DOs don't rely on homeopathy alone.

 

[ND Student]

What's the title of the article in the review?

As for your statement about ND's being scientific in their approach: can you provide some evidence in the literature that ND therapeutics are indeed effective in patients? It would be nice to see something other than a case report/testimonial/n=1 sort of publication.

I'd rather not reveal my identity, but lots of NDs are published in peer reviewed journals. One shining example is Joe Pizzorno. Another is Pamela Snider. We have evidence based research institutes at most of our schools, as well as research programs in integrative medicine. To address the second part of your question, NDs use the same modalities as MDs and DOs, just with a different model. We focus on treating the cause, rather than focusing on symptoms. When we eradicate the cause, the body heals on its own. A lot of our focus is on physiology, nutrition and lifestyle changes, because we are often treating complex chronic diseases that the conventional health system cannot treat effectively, or we are focusing on health promotion, i.e., helping people thrive.

 

[username456789]

Homeopathy is a distinct medical model from naturopathic medicine, although it is often utilized by NDs. MDs and DOs use homeopathy quite often as well. I have found homeopathy to be quite useful as a medical model. It is great for pattern recognition and provides a comprehensive, holistic medical model that takes into account emotions, mind, and spirit, as well as the physical, and integrates them in a way that is approachable. NDs are all about treating the whole person, but the vast majority of NDs do not rely on homeopathy alone, just like the vast majority of MDs and DOs don't rely on homeopathy alone.

I'd rather not reveal my identity, but lots of NDs are published in peer reviewed journals. One shining example is Joe Pizzorno. Another is Pamela Snider. We have evidence based research institutes at most of our schools, as well as research programs in integrative medicine. To address the second part of your question, NDs use the same modalities as MDs and DOs, just with a different model. We focus on treating the cause, rather than focusing on symptoms. When we eradicate the cause, the body heals on its own. A lot of our focus is on physiology, nutrition and lifestyle changes, because we are often treating complex chronic diseases that the conventional health system cannot treat effectively, or we are focusing on health promotion, i.e., helping people thrive.

These are hilarious responses, because you spend many lines saying exactly nothing. It's like you opened a "ND rhetoric 101" pamphlet and transcribed it for us.

Also, just because someone "focuses" on something doesn't mean you have accomplished anything whatsoever in regard to whatever it is you're talking about. "Focusing on treating the cause" is meaningless when A) you don't understand the cause, and B) your methods of addressing the cause are impotent.

I can "focus" on Alison Brie all I want, but it doesn't mean she's going to go out on a date with me.

 

[IslandStyle808]

I'd rather not reveal my identity, but lots of NDs are published in peer reviewed journals. One shining example is Joe Pizzorno. Another is Pamela Snider. We have evidence based research institutes at most of our schools, as well as research programs in integrative medicine. To address the second part of your question, NDs use the same modalities as MDs and DOs, just with a different model. We focus on treating the cause, rather than focusing on symptoms. When we eradicate the cause, the body heals on its own. A lot of our focus is on physiology, nutrition and lifestyle changes, because we are often treating complex chronic diseases that the conventional health system cannot treat effectively, or we are focusing on health promotion, i.e., helping people thrive.

I just checked pubmed for both names. Joe Pizzorno does not appear on it at all. Pamela Snider does, but they don't seem to be primary articles (what AlteredScale was asking for). You need to give specific examples of studies that shows a good amount of people.

You really don't think MD/DOs actually try to treat the cause when they can. So I am guessing methicillin or vancomycin doesn't act on S. aureus then, but treats the symptoms of a Staph infection? It sounds like your admin are spoon feeding you propaganda and you are buying it hook, line and sinker.

 

[loris]

Homeopathy is a distinct medical model from naturopathic medicine, although it is often utilized by NDs. MDs and DOs use homeopathy quite often as well. I have found homeopathy to be quite useful as a medical model. It is great for pattern recognition and provides a comprehensive, holistic medical model that takes into account emotions, mind, and spirit, as well as the physical, and integrates them in a way that is approachable. NDs are all about treating the whole person, but the vast majority of NDs do not rely on homeopathy alone, just like the vast majority of MDs and DOs don't rely on homeopathy alone.

Learning all of the Pokemon and their abilities/weaknesses is also great for pattern recognition, but since they have no actual problem solving powers in the real world they shouldn’t be included in a medical curriculum.

You’re kind of describing everything as though homeopathy is something that NDs may happen to encounter and choose to use during their career. Homeopathy is not part of the MD/DO curriculum. It is however part of the ND curriculum. As I posted earlier in this thread, at Bastyr 8 credits are devoted to Homeopathy, 6 are devoted to Botanical Medicine Lab and Botanical Formulation Lab, and 21.5 are devoted to Physical Medicine. Only 2.5 credits are devoted to Clinical Pharmacology and only 4 are devoted to Medical Procedures. Homeopathy is also part of your school’s (NCNM) curriculum. At NCNM, Homeopathy is part of Intro to Therapeutic Modalities II so at least 2.67 credits are devoted to it. This is the same number of credits that are devoted to Pharmacology which means that in NCNM’s opinion, they are equally useful and important. Botanical Medicine also has 3.17 credits. Depending on what electives students take, the number of credits devoted to Homeopathy and Botanical Medicine may be higher.

Geology PhD programs are science based, because they have to be; a modern program that offered courses in Alchemy, Crystal Therapy, and How to Commune with Rocks would be useless. No one, especially in the scientific community, would take that program seriously even if only a few of its graduates regularly tried to resolve road erosion problems and landslides by sitting down with boulders and having a nice chat over a cup of tea.

Then rubbing a crystal all over them.

 

[slopes23]

I'd rather not reveal my identity, but lots of NDs are published in peer reviewed journals. One shining example is Joe Pizzorno. Another is Pamela Snider. We have evidence based research institutes at most of our schools, as well as research programs in integrative medicine. To address the second part of your question, NDs use the same modalities as MDs and DOs, just with a different model. We focus on treating the cause, rather than focusing on symptoms. When we eradicate the cause, the body heals on its own. A lot of our focus is on physiology, nutrition and lifestyle changes, because we are often treating complex chronic diseases that the conventional health system cannot treat effectively, or we are focusing on health promotion, i.e., helping people thrive.

Do you actually believe the words that come out of your mouth? Or are you dying of laughter while you type, like Ron Swanson at a organic super market?

I think we all know the truth.

 

[AlteredScale]

I'd rather not reveal my identity, but lots of NDs are published in peer reviewed journals. One shining example is Joe Pizzorno. Another is Pamela Snider. We have evidence based research institutes at most of our schools, as well as research programs in integrative medicine. To address the second part of your question, NDs use the same modalities as MDs and DOs, just with a different model. We focus on treating the cause, rather than focusing on symptoms. When we eradicate the cause, the body heals on its own. A lot of our focus is on physiology, nutrition and lifestyle changes, because we are often treating complex chronic diseases that the conventional health system cannot treat effectively, or we are focusing on health promotion, i.e., helping people thrive.

But do you go about treating the "cause" of Grave's Disease, IBD, or Type 1 DM instead of the symptoms?

 

[jthedestroyr]

But do you go about treating the "cause" of Grave's Disease, IBD, or Type 1 DM instead of the symptoms?

This is how they treat everything below

+ = cure


I'm sorry, I just can't find anything they do as serious.

 

[loris]

The model is based on health promotion and disease prevention.

We focus on treating the cause, rather than focusing on symptoms. When we eradicate the cause, the body heals on its own. A lot of our focus is on physiology, nutrition and lifestyle changes, because we are often treating complex chronic diseases that the conventional health system cannot treat effectively, or we are focusing on health promotion, i.e., helping people thrive.

Should this really be toted around as a unique bragging point for a particular health profession? I feel like promoting health and preventing disease should be the universal bare minimum performed by any medical discipline, not a special selling point. Also, since I have seen a lot of CAM providers frequently make similar statements, what do you think the underlying principles of allopathic medicine are and how do they differ from “health promotion and disease prevention” or “treating the cause rather than the symptoms”?

NDs use the least toxic, least invasive treatments possible to restore health.

Again I don't think that this should be considered a special selling point; all medical professionals should use the least toxic, least invasive EFFECTIVE treatments possible to restore health. The problem with naturopathy is that many of the “treatments” like homeopathy may be less toxic than many conventional allopathic treatments, but they also lack efficacy (eg. chemotherapy vs. homeopathy in the treatment of cancer).

 

[W19]

Should this really be toted around as a unique bragging point for a particular health profession? I feel like promoting health and preventing disease should be the universal bare minimum performed by any medical discipline, not a special selling point. Also, since I have seen a lot of CAM providers frequently make similar statements, what do you think the underlying principles of allopathic medicine are and how do they differ from “health promotion and disease prevention” or “treating the cause rather than the symptoms”?

Again I don't think that this should be considered a special selling point; all medical professionals should use the least toxic, least invasive EFFECTIVE treatments possible to restore health. The problem with naturopathy is that many of the “treatments” like homeopathy may be less toxic than many conventional allopathic treatments, but they also lack efficacy (eg. chemotherapy vs. homeopathy in the treatment of cancer).

That is the selling point of other health professions that are not MD. Even DO do that to a certain extent.

 

[sonofva]

One time on a bus ride I was taking I had a naturopath try to convince me she could help my back pain by putting crystals on my feet. She then spent the next 30 minutes trying to convince me that we don't really need evidence to prove that something works and that we should just "believe."

 

[ND Student]

These are pretty hostile responses :-/. How about you all look up the ND curriculum online from the school websites? Again, I withdrew from an MS/MD program at Georgetown University. The rigor of my current program is comparable. Joe Pizzorno founded Bastyr University, cofounded the institute of functional medicine, founded integrative medicine journal, has written several textbooks, and was appointed as a medical advisor under Bill Clinton. How many people will amount to that level of accomplishment? ND are a small profession, but there are a lot of amazing people. Anywho, take care . I wish you all the best on your journeys.

 

[wiggitywack12]

My only experience with naturopathic medicine was completely accidental. One morning at my undergrad's main library someone hadn't logged out of their gmail and left open was some email about distance healing. Apparently some "distance healer" was charging people like $65 for distance healings that came with a list of instructions they had to follow. The email explicitly stated that the "patient" was not to eat pork, spicy food or have sex.

I put a note in his email to remind him to log out and told him that pork, spicy food and sex are all great things and he should keep indulging in them.

 

[NicMouse64]

These are pretty hostile responses :-/. How about you all look up the ND curriculum online from the school websites? Again, I withdrew from an MS/MD program at Georgetown University. The rigor of my current program is comparable. Joe Pizzorno founded Bastyr University, cofounded the institute of functional medicine, founded integrative medicine journal, has written several textbooks, and was appointed as a medical advisor under Bill Clinton. How many people will amount to that level of accomplishment? ND are a small profession, but there are a lot of amazing people. Anywho, take care . I wish you all the best on your journeys.

So one person's accomplishments define the profession? A.T. Still doesn't define Osteopathic medicine, luckily they were smart enough to transition to EBM.

 

[giantswing]

These are pretty hostile responses :-/. Again, I withdrew from an MS/MD program at Georgetown University..

Why in all thst is holy did you drop out? Did you fail out? After dropping out why why why go to an nd school?

Also, and this may explain the above, are you shocked when you come to an md website and get hostility?

 

[Psai]

How can you tell that the rigor is comparable if you withdrew

 

[Dr.p53]

they should study medicine.

 

[loris]

These are pretty hostile responses :-/. How about you all look up the ND curriculum online from the school websites? Again, I withdrew from an MS/MD program at Georgetown University. The rigor of my current program is comparable. Joe Pizzorno founded Bastyr University, cofounded the institute of functional medicine, founded integrative medicine journal, has written several textbooks, and was appointed as a medical advisor under Bill Clinton. How many people will amount to that level of accomplishment? ND are a small profession, but there are a lot of amazing people. Anywho, take care . I wish you all the best on your journeys.

I did look up the ND curriculum. Did you notice that I embedded links to the ND program curriculum at both Bastyr University and NCNM in the post quoted below?

Learning all of the Pokemon and their abilities/weaknesses is also great for pattern recognition, but since they have no actual problem solving powers in the real world they shouldn’t be included in a medical curriculum.

You’re kind of describing everything as though homeopathy is something that NDs may happen to encounter and choose to use during their career. Homeopathy is not part of the MD/DO curriculum. It is however part of the ND curriculum. As I posted earlier in this thread, at Bastyr 8 credits are devoted to Homeopathy, 6 are devoted to Botanical Medicine Lab and Botanical Formulation Lab, and 21.5 are devoted to Physical Medicine. Only 2.5 credits are devoted to Clinical Pharmacology and only 4 are devoted to Medical Procedures. Homeopathy is also part of your school’s (NCNM) curriculum. At NCNM, Homeopathy is part of Intro to Therapeutic Modalities II so at least 2.67 credits are devoted to it. This is the same number of credits that are devoted to Pharmacology which means that in NCNM’s opinion, they are equally useful and important. Botanical Medicine also has 3.17 credits. Depending on what electives students take, the number of credits devoted to Homeopathy and Botanical Medicine may be higher.

Geology PhD programs are science based, because they have to be; a modern program that offered courses in Alchemy, Crystal Therapy, and How to Commune with Rocks would be useless. No one, especially in the scientific community, would take that program seriously even if only a few of its graduates regularly tried to resolve road erosion problems and landslides by sitting down with boulders and having a nice chat over a cup of tea.

Then rubbing a crystal all over them.

 

[loris]

These are pretty hostile responses :-/. How about you all look up the ND curriculum online from the school websites? Again, I withdrew from an MS/MD program at Georgetown University. The rigor of my current program is comparable. Joe Pizzorno founded Bastyr University, cofounded the institute of functional medicine, founded integrative medicine journal, has written several textbooks, and was appointed as a medical advisor under Bill Clinton. How many people will amount to that level of accomplishment? ND are a small profession, but there are a lot of amazing people. Anywho, take care . I wish you all the best on your journeys.

I will continue to respect your desire for anonymity and abide by the TOS, but given your somewhat influential position in the world of naturopathy, I think that some advice is necessary. If you plan on continuing to present yourself as an ambassador of your profession and you genuinely wish to engage in a diplomatic exchange with minimal hostility in this forum, then you need to work on a few things.

First, your original post in this forum came off as arrogant; it suggested without any supporting evidence that a ND education was superior for family practice, falsely claimed that naturopathy was rooted in science and equivalent to an allopathic education, and insinuated that any flaws we found in naturopathy were due solely to political influence and our own personal ignorance. Your linked news article was also pretty weak. When you have no evidence to back up arrogant claims in this forum, you will annoy people and you will be attacked. Your original introduction certainly didn’t help you, but bear in mind that many people on this forum and in the population in general have many valid complaints about naturopathy and they will express their completely valid frustration with it accordingly regardless of how diplomatic you may be.

If you offer to answer questions, then do it. When people ask questions, answer them to the best of your ability with minimal canned rhetoric and dancing around the issue. We are evidence-minded people, so give us evidence. If there is no evidence behind your statements or practices, then don’t get offended when we call you out on it. Post direct links instead of just suggesting that people look up particular people or things. Why would you volunteer to answer questions if your response is essentially "Google it"?

My final suggestion is to just cut the BS and shift to an evidence-based medical practice.

 

[ND Student]

Why in all thst is holy did you drop out? Did you fail out? After dropping out why why why go to an nd school?

Also, and this may explain the above, are you shocked when you come to an md website and get hostility?

I didn't 'drop out' or 'fail out', I switched programs because it was the best decision for me. I had a long discussion with Dr Avid Haramati, the CAM program director, and decided on my own that it made the most sense. He is a big supporter of naturopathic medicine. He has the dean of Bastyr speak at the MS CAM program, and he recently visited my school, NCNM, to present on mindfulness. He is also close with the director of our research program, Heather Zwickey, PhD.

To your second part, I am a little disheartened at the hostility. I did not realize that this is an 'MD' website that seems to dislike ND students :-/. I was responding to the person who posted the thread. After all, I am the most qualified person to answer his question. I have nothing against you all, and whether you like it or not, I will be practicing as a full scope family physician some day soon.

Have you ever looked at the issues in conventional medicine? MDs are not free of blame with regard to practicing bad medicine. MD family doctors are also among the least satisfied in the profession. I have no disrespect for any doctor. I am just pointing out that my decision to switch programs was well informed.

 

[ND Student]

I will continue to respect your desire for anonymity and abide by the TOS, but given your somewhat influential position in the world of naturopathy, I think that some advice is necessary. If you plan on continuing to present yourself as an ambassador of your profession and you genuinely wish to engage in a diplomatic exchange with minimal hostility in this forum, then you need to work on a few things.

First, your original post in this forum came off as arrogant; it suggested without any supporting evidence that a ND education was superior for family practice, falsely claimed that naturopathy was rooted in science and equivalent to an allopathic education, and insinuated that any flaws we found in naturopathy were due solely to political influence and our own personal ignorance. Your linked news article was also pretty weak. When you have no evidence to back up arrogant claims in this forum, you will annoy people and you will be attacked. Your original introduction certainly didn’t help you, but bear in mind that many people on this forum and in the population in general have many valid complaints about naturopathy and they will express their completely valid frustration with it accordingly regardless of how diplomatic you may be.

If you offer to answer questions, then do it. When people ask questions, answer them to the best of your ability with minimal canned rhetoric and dancing around the issue. We are evidence-minded people, so give us evidence. If there is no evidence behind your statements or practices, then don’t get offended when we call you out on it. Post direct links instead of just suggesting that people look up particular people or things. Why would you volunteer to answer questions if your response is essentially "Google it"?

My final suggestion is to just cut the BS and shift to an evidence-based medical practice.

Thanks for your feedback. Sorry for any arrogance on my part. My enthusiasm may have come off as offensive. I am just happy with my program (I also study classical Chinese medicine). I have nothing against any doctor or med student. Many of the respondents seemed like they were trying to be insulting, so I tried to focus on questions that were not meant to be insulting. I am not trying to be diplomatic. I'm just being myself.

I should also point out that there are folks out there who get online degrees and call themselves 'naturopaths'. these folks are not getting physician level training. they are not NDs.

 

[ND Student]

How can you tell that the rigor is comparable if you withdrew

Because the first two years are very similar: path, immunology, biochem, research, orthopedics, nutrition, ethics, philosophy, histology, cpd, lab dx, diagnostic imaging, clinical case presentation, preceptor hours, etc., and yes, botanical medicine and homeopathy. We get a lot more nutrition and a little more biochem though, and less pharmacology. I also am doing chinese medicine classes as a separate degree (DSOM). so far I've done two foundations classes and 3 courses in qi gong. NDs enter school knowing we're doing family medicine, so we get a lot of clinical exposure in our final two years along with lecture time. This is good considering residencies aren't required yet, although they would be if we had medicare inclusion. Most of us do residencies though, and those that do not most often end up with a mentor. there are some who go into practice on their own, but they tend to struggle. It's an emerging profession. we're licensed in 18 states and DC, with full scope in about half. We're seeking out high level grants to make 1 year required residencies.

 

[ND Student]

I did look up the ND curriculum. Did you notice that I embedded links to the ND program curriculum at both Bastyr University and NCNM in the post quoted below?

I didn't notice, sorry about that. I was hoping to encourage others to take a look as well. Thanks.

 

[ND Student]

I will continue to respect your desire for anonymity and abide by the TOS, but given your somewhat influential position in the world of naturopathy, I think that some advice is necessary. If you plan on continuing to present yourself as an ambassador of your profession and you genuinely wish to engage in a diplomatic exchange with minimal hostility in this forum, then you need to work on a few things.

First, your original post in this forum came off as arrogant; it suggested without any supporting evidence that a ND education was superior for family practice, falsely claimed that naturopathy was rooted in science and equivalent to an allopathic education, and insinuated that any flaws we found in naturopathy were due solely to political influence and our own personal ignorance. Your linked news article was also pretty weak. When you have no evidence to back up arrogant claims in this forum, you will annoy people and you will be attacked. Your original introduction certainly didn’t help you, but bear in mind that many people on this forum and in the population in general have many valid complaints about naturopathy and they will express their completely valid frustration with it accordingly regardless of how diplomatic you may be.

If you offer to answer questions, then do it. When people ask questions, answer them to the best of your ability with minimal canned rhetoric and dancing around the issue. We are evidence-minded people, so give us evidence. If there is no evidence behind your statements or practices, then don’t get offended when we call you out on it. Post direct links instead of just suggesting that people look up particular people or things. Why would you volunteer to answer questions if your response is essentially "Google it"?

My final suggestion is to just cut the BS and shift to an evidence-based medical practice.

Hi again, we use all the same resources in ND school as MD school, - pub med, uptodate, epcoriates, medscape, textbooks, etc. - and i copied that article because David Katz, MD (the author) is the director of the prevention research center at Yale University. Thank you for your feedback.

 

[deleted480308]

Because the first two years are very similar: path, immunology, biochem, research, orthopedics, nutrition, ethics, philosophy, histology, cpd, lab dx, diagnostic imaging, clinical case presentation, preceptor hours, etc., and yes, botanical medicine and homeopathy. We get a lot more nutrition and a little more biochem though, and less pharmacology. I also am doing chinese medicine classes as a separate degree (DSOM). so far I've done two foundations classes and 3 courses in qi gong. NDs enter school knowing we're doing family medicine, so we get a lot of clinical exposure in our second two years along with lecture time. This is good considering residencies aren't required yet, although they would be if we had medicare inclusion. Most of us do residencies though, and those that do not most often end up in a mentorship role. there are some who go into practice on their own, but they tend to struggle. It's an emerging profession. It's pretty cool to be changing laws and gaining scope over time. we're licensed in 18 states and DC, with full scope in about half. We're seeking out high level grants to make 1 year required residencies.

NDs don't practice medicine. Stop saying that as though getting some legislatures to buy into your snake oil means anything.