What is your view of naturopathic doctors?

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Going to pedantic here but I will have to disagree with your definition that CD is autoimmune since there is no clear cut definition of a specific Ab to self-Ag reaction occurring or cell-mediated attach to to the villi.

Is CD mediated mainly by an adaptive response or an innate response and what's your rationale?

What is your view on biological therapeutics such as infliximab (anti-TNF) or anti-a4b7?

What study are you sourcing that states that IBD pts need 25% more protein than usual?
However,
If a pt has a very high level of pain due to their recurring CD flare ups and you know that corticosteroids will drastically decrease the inflammation within a few days would you not do it in favor for nutrition supplementation? What would nutrition supplementation really do if their villi are already damaged and the absorption of these supplements is no longer possible?
and increased
I can def understand however the change in nutrition, I think many conventional doctors already agree that changes in diet for CD pts will be necessary.

I agree with the first part, just didn't mention it. There's overwhelming evidence supporting an association with immunologic disturbance in IBD, but it's unclear whether or not they are the cause or the result of the disease. Current evidence shows that immune system abnormalities are probably secondary to the disease.

Second part: adaptive immune response has been classically considered to play the main role in pathogenesis, but recent research in immunology and genetics has shown equal dependence on the innate response via antimicrobial peptide production, innate microbial sensing, and autography.

Biotherapeurics are a legitimate option for unresponsive late stage CD (CDAI remains high with associated symptoms). I view their role, as with any suppressive treatment, as a "life preserver". However, I would be very restrained in prescribing them considering their side-effects and potential long-term effects: must consider existing infections (e.g. dormant TB), and increased susceptibility to infxn with tx (TB, sepsis, PML), risk of developing blood disorders, cancers. Do the ends outweigh the means?

For a very acute case I'd want to suppress inflammation with corticosteroids and start IV therapeutics. Can be a life threatening disease, so I'd consider hospitalization. Clinical studies have achieved a great deal of success with IBD through an elemental diet, intravenous nutrition, or an exclusion diet. And the obvious: high fiber and low sugar/refined carbs. Remove allergen producing foods (wheat, corn, dairy, carageenan). Organic/non GMO. Supplement omega-3, reduce omega-6.

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I agree with the first part, just didn't mention it. There's overwhelming evidence supporting an association with immunologic disturbance in IBD, but it's unclear whether or not they are the cause or the result of the disease. Current evidence shows that immune system abnormalities are probably secondary to the disease.

Second part: adaptive immune response has been classically considered to play the main role in pathogenesis, but recent research in immunology and genetics has shown equal dependence on the innate response via antimicrobial peptide production, innate microbial sensing, and autography.

Biotherapeurics are a legitimate option for unresponsive late stage CD (CDAI remains high with associated symptoms). I view their role, as with any suppressive treatment, as a "life preserver". However, I would be very restrained in prescribing them considering their side-effects and potential long-term effects: must consider existing infections (e.g. dormant TB), and increased susceptibility to infxn with tx (TB, sepsis, PML), risk of developing blood disorders, cancers. Do the ends outweigh the means?

For a very acute case I'd want to suppress inflammation with corticosteroids and start IV therapeutics. Can be a life threatening disease, so I'd consider hospitalization. Clinical studies have achieved a great deal of success with IBD through an elemental diet, intravenous nutrition, or an exclusion diet. And the obvious: high fiber and low sugar/refined carbs. Remove allergen producing foods (wheat, corn, dairy, carageenan). Organic/non GMO. Supplement omega-3, reduce omega-6.


Or alternatively, you shouldn't be treating anyone with basically any serious medical condition and should leave that to real doctors.

Perhaps we agree that you should stick to those with a gentle sense of the unease or more money than sense.
 
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Or alternatively, you shouldn't be treating anyone with basically any serious medical condition and should leave that to real doctors.

Perhaps we agree that you should stick to those with a gentle sense of the unease or more money than sense.

You don't need to go to fake medical school to reel those folks in. There's a spa on my block that will charge you 75 bucks to sit on their "amethyst energy biomat" for an hour.
 
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Speaking of quackery, I just found out from a friend in LA the latest trend in Hollywood is young women going to the spa to get "colonics" to improve their "gut health" and "lose weight."

And yes a colonic, is exactly what you think it is: an enema.
 
Speaking of quackery, I just found out from a friend in LA the latest trend in Hollywood is young women going to the spa to get "colonics" to improve their "gut health" and "lose weight."

And yes a colonic, is exactly what you think it is: an enema.

:hungry:
 
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Speaking of quackery, I just found out from a friend in LA the latest trend in Hollywood is young women going to the spa to get "colonics" to improve their "gut health" and "lose weight."

And yes a colonic, is exactly what you think it is: an enema.

oh that's not new. There's an office that does that right next door to where a bunch of the residents in my program go for Bikram Yoga.

/a perf would really improve your health, right guys?
 
Speaking of quackery, I just found out from a friend in LA the latest trend in Hollywood is young women going to the spa to get "colonics" to improve their "gut health" and "lose weight."

And yes a colonic, is exactly what you think it is: an enema.
A few years ago coffee colonics were all the rage
 
How can you sit there and offer something like that to a customer with a straight face

Well, you can know that anyone who has the money to plunk down on something that ridiculous, and has so little sense as to do so, needs to be separated from that money as efficiently as possible before they do something with it to really hurt themselves.

There was a "natural healing" store near where I used to live that had a space that they rented out to scammers. You could buy your herbs, your Tibetan singing bowls, and your books on reiki downstairs, and then head up to the loft for a $125/hour guided meditation session with this week's yogi. These things were always booked up solid, and the shop owners would sadly turn people away, or advise them to book ahead for the next time the yogi circulated through.

I really wanted to run an Aura Cleansing service, there, but never quite sank low enough to go through with it.

I'd invite the mark to make themselves comfortable on the mat provided. Trippy new age music and incense would already be provided by the store, so no expenses there. I would show the mark a sizeable fragment of black tourmaline, or some other black mineral, while chattering some inane patter about its properties of absorbing negative energies. I'd explain that I needed to pass this throughout their aura, which of course, I could see clearly. Then some cold reading techniques as I worked my way through their various chakras, eliciting enough information to target my patter to their particular concerns. "The stone draws in the negative energies related to your break up, blah blah blah, grounding them and restoring them to the energy circulation of the Earth, while restoring to you peace, and comfort, and clarity about your purpose blah blah blah."

I have a very soothing demeanor, and could totally pull this off.

Cycle through a rainbow of other minerals and precious stones. Amethyst for spiritual concerns, Malachite for financial worries, Rose Quartz for matters of the heart. Just waving the rocks around their bodies and talking to them kindly, working my way through every color in the rainbow, until I come to a final clear quartz crystal. It would return to them all the energies that had been cleansed, so that they would be renewed and revived. That will be $200 for the hour, but you get a 25% discount on any crystal jewelry from the shop below, to enhance the effects of today's session.

Now, see, that is just some voodoo that I made up myself when I was 19, but I've told a few people about it since, and they've told me that I should totally do it, I'd make a killing, it might even help people... etc. It might help some people. But those people would have been equally helped by having anyone show an hour's worth of interest in them.... and if I could have been actually helping them to address real problems with meaningful and effective treatments, why would I not prefer to do that instead?

That is what really gets me about naturopathy. It isn't that I think that it is evil and wrong... I just see it as a waste of opportunity, an expenditure of precious resources on ineffective, possibly completely spurious, interventions. Being a DO PCP will not prevent me from spending an hour with a patient, or from working with them on prevention and lifestyle-based approaches to wellness, if that is how I choose to practice. But during that hour, I will be able to offer them something more substantial than pleasant conversation and mysticism.
 
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I wonder if there is a standardized curriculum across the country or if each school is free to teach anything it wants.
 
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The fact that any of them have any kind of prescribing or treatment rights is scarier than NPs who count being on the floor as an RN "years of clinical training" towards being the clinical decision maker.
 
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You can try to differentiate all you want, at the end of the day the gold standard will always be EBM. Trust me, as a DO student I've been fed my share of distinctiveness buzzwords, and they almost always amount to nothing more than a few class hours of embarrassingly outdated philosophies. To not give patients the most up to date, data driven therapies is criminal, and its even worse when you give them treatments that either actually harm them, give them false hope, or delay proper diagnosis and treatment. For the love of god we don't need more degrees, god forbid the old DO vs MD threads evolve to become ND vs MD or ND vs DO threads.
 
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You can try to differentiate all you want, at the end of the day the gold standard will always be EBM. Trust me, as a DO student I've been fed my share of distinctiveness buzzwords, and they almost always amount to nothing more than a few class hours of embarrassingly outdated philosophies. To not give patients the most up to date, data driven therapies is criminal, and its even worse when you give them treatments that either actually harm them, give them false hope, or delay proper diagnosis and treatment. For the love of god we don't need more degrees, god forbid the old DO vs MD threads evolve to become ND vs MD or ND vs DO threads.

Everyone knows the order is alphbetical: MD>ND>DO.

Of course- I kid.
 
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Well, you can know that anyone who has the money to plunk down on something that ridiculous, and has so little sense as to do so, needs to be separated from that money as efficiently as possible before they do something with it to really hurt themselves.

It's funny, I opened this thread thinking I was still reading the Anki deck thread when I read this.
 
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I know the alphabet can like, totally be difficult man :laugh:.
 
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I wonder if there is a standardized curriculum across the country or if each school is free to teach anything it wants.

Standardized through the Council on Naturopathic Medical Education (CNME). Students and graduates of programs accredited or preaccredited (candidacy) by CNME are eligible to apply for the naturopathic licensing examinations administered by the North American Board of Naturopathic Examiners (NABNE), and are generally eligible for state and provincial licensure in the U.S. and Canada.

Founded in 1978, CNME is accepted as the programmatic accrediting agency for naturopathic medical education by the four-year naturopathic colleges and programs in the United States and Canada, by the American and Canadian national naturopathic professional associations, and by NABNE. The U.S. Secretary of Education recognizes CNME as the national accrediting agency for programs leading to the Doctor of Naturopathic Medicine (N.D. or N.M.D.) or Doctor of Naturopathy (N.D.) degree.
 
FYI everyone, I'll be finishing my MD through the military when I'm done at NCNM with ND/DSOM (4 more years). The plan is emergency medicine to bust out my loans and to work on policy, family medicine, and research longterm. NDs get a solid education and work hard as physicians as far as I can tell. I'll always stand by them.

On a side, I was an EMT in undergrad and worked on an acute psych unit for 3 years before med school. Also served as a medical aid in Tanzania. I love medicine. I want to help healthcare evolve. Big changes are needed for all of us.
 
FYI everyone, I'll be finishing my MD through the military when I'm done at NCNM with ND/DSOM (4 more years). The plan is emergency medicine to bust out my loans and to work on policy, family medicine, and research longterm. NDs get a solid education and work hard as physicians as far as I can tell. I'll always stand by them.

On a side, I was an EMT in undergrad and worked on an acute psych unit for 3 years before med school. Also served as a medical aid in Tanzania. I love medicine. I want to help healthcare evolve. Big changes are needed for all of us.

I'm curious as to how adcoms will perceive your educational experiences. Didn't you drop out of a good program to pursue witch doctory? And then, instead of buying into your own witchcraft, you want to pursue something else? It might seem to some that you have commitment issues.
 
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I'm curious as to how adcoms will perceive your educational experiences. Didn't you drop out of a good program to pursue witch doctory? And then, instead of buying into your own witchcraft, you want to pursue something else? It might seem to some that you have commitment issues.

That's going to make an epic pre-allo thread in about 6 years.
 
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FYI everyone, I'll be finishing my MD through the military when I'm done at NCNM with ND/DSOM (4 more years). The plan is emergency medicine to bust out my loans and to work on policy, family medicine, and research longterm. NDs get a solid education and work hard as physicians as far as I can tell. I'll always stand by them.

On a side, I was an EMT in undergrad and worked on an acute psych unit for 3 years before med school. Also served as a medical aid in Tanzania. I love medicine. I want to help healthcare evolve. Big changes are needed for all of us.

What about helping patients? Naturopathy doesn't do that...
 
I’ve seen a lot of advertised botanical supplements that have ignored a lot of these issues; I’ll probably briefly breakdown an example that was recommended by naturopaths later on in a separate post.
Here’s a botanical treatment article shared by the international Naturopathic Medical Student Association’s (NMSA) Facebook page that has some of those issues. These include assuming that plant chemical profiles are uniform despite differing genetic strain/hybrid/handling/source (multiple studies don’t even bother to state what kind of lime was used or where they were grown), vague or incalculable dosages/amounts, poor study design (missing control, etc.), insufficient supporting research, incorrect portrayal of study results, unproven overreaching assumptions about in vivo performance based on an in vitro study, etc. Anyhow I’ll just point out a couple of examples. To be fair, a few of these particular problems may not necessarily be unique to herbal/botanical medicine, but I constantly see them associated with it.

The NMSA Facebook post & the linked article: “Lime Juice Could Save 100's of Thousands of Lives Each Year” by Sayer Ji, purveyor of quackery and the founder of GreenMedInfo where “Education Equals Empowerment.”

1. Example of Misreporting the Results of a Cited Study and
Exaggerating about the Capabilities of a Plant
From Ji’s Article:
“While billions of dollars are poured into research and development for pharmaceutical drugs, the humble lime has been proven to mitigate and even cure diseases that cause millions to suffer and hundreds of thousands to die each year worldwide. […] An impressive array of research on lime juice from the National Library of Medicine indicates that it could either cure or greatly accelerate healing time from a variety of life threatening illnesses including: [...]

Bacterial Agents In Food: A recent study found that the popular food known as ceviche, naturally containing pathogenic agents from fish, could be completely sanitized with lime juice. Both Vibrio parahaemolyticus and Salmonella enterica (two common causes of food poisoning) were all reduced to below detection limits through the addition of lime extract.[2]

Disinfecting water: Lime has been found to enhance the disinfection of water, by both killing norovirus as well as Escherichia coli.[3] Lime has also been found to kill the cholera pathogen, which is believed to affect 3–5 million people and causes 100,000–130,000 deaths a year as of 2010.[4]”​

From the abstract of one of the articles Ji cited:
(Effect of lime juice on Vibrio parahaemolyticus and Salmonella enterica inactivation during the preparation of the raw fish dish ceviche.)
“Confirmed cases of cholera in Peru, New Jersey, and Florida have been associated with ceviche.”
“Tilapia (Oreochromis niloticus) fillet pieces were inoculated with Vibrio parahaemolyticus and Salmonella enterica (>7 log CFU/g) and incubated at 25 and 4°C for 30 or 120 min in the presence of fresh lime juice at concentrations typical for the preparation of ceviche. Similar levels of cells were also inoculated into fresh lime juice without tilapia. Surviving cells were enumerated on selective (xylose lysine Tergitol 4 and thiosulfate-bile-citrate-sucrose) and nonselective (tryptic soy agar) media. V. parahaemolyticus levels were reduced to below detection limits (~5-log reduction) under all conditions studied. Salmonella strains on tilapia were much more resistant to inactivation and were only slightly reduced (~1- to 2-log reduction). Salmonella and V. parahaemolyticus inoculated directly into lime juice without tilapia were all reduced to below detection limits (~5-log reduction). A typical ceviche recipe reduces V. parahaemolyticus risk significantly but is less effective for control of S. enterica.”​

2. Example of Ignoring the Variation due to the Genetics, Handling, and Source of Plant Matter:
The standard US grocery store lime is a Persian lime (Citrus latifolia), which is actually a triploid (thus almost always seedless) natural hybrid that probably arose from the cross of a key lime (aka Mexican lime, Citrus aurantifolia) with a lemon (Citrus limon) and a citron (Citrus medica) and is frequently imported from Mexico. Since they are sterile triploids, Persian limes are propagated from different types of clones. It’s been photoshopped, but the lime pictured in the article looks like a seedless Persian lime. It’s less acidic, less bitter, and significantly larger than the key lime (also called the Mexican lime) which is more round and only 1 to 2 inches in diameter. The fertile Mexican lime is seedy, has a thin rind, and is one of the most acidic citrus fruit. The Persian lime is also less aromatic than the Mexican lime so it probably has less of the volatile compounds that would be affected by storage and transport time; vitamin c and other compounds will still degrade with age and other conditions.

The chemical profile and physical characteristics of a lime can vary significantly with genetics and environmental factors as seen in this chapter of “Citrus Oils: Composition, Advanced Analytical Techniques, Contaminants, and Biological Activity,” this nature article, “Characterization of limes (Citrus aurantifolia) grown in Bhutan and Indonesia using high-throughput sequencing,” and this article, “Temperature Effects on Vitamin C Content in Citrus Fruits.” For example, a lime’s ascorbic acid levels are higher when grown in a region with cooler nights. Its furocoumarin profile also varies significantly with growing conditions. Furocumarins are some of the compounds found in limes that may produce unwanted effects (pharmacology info for Mexican Limes, C. aurantiifolia); lime juice/oil shouldn’t be applied topically because lime oil contains the phototoxins 5-methoxypsoralen and oxypeucedanin as well as many other furocoumarins which can cause phytophotodermatitis (“Margarita photodermatitis”) upon exposure to sunlight.

Variety of Limes and Preparation Methods Used in the Studies Cited by the Article:
“Sickle cell anemia (SCA):” (Source cited by article: CDC Sickle Cell Disease (SCD) - Data and Statistics ) *The source of the lime study data was not cited.

“Malaria:”
(Source cited by article: Effects of lime juice on malaria parasite clearance.)
- Limes used: Mexican limes (C. aurantifolia Swingle) that I’m guessing were locally harvested from Yoruba land in Southwestern Nigeria in West Africa during July and September of 2009.
- Preparation: 10-15mL of lime juice given 3 times daily in conjunction with oral artemether (4mg/kg daily for 3 days) and camoquinine (10mg/kg daily for 3 days).​

“Bacterial Agents In Food:” (Source cited by article: Effect of lime juice on Vibrio parahaemolyticus and Salmonella enterica inactivation during the preparation of the raw fish dish ceviche.)
- Limes used: No listed type or source other than “purchased at local supermarket.” They are probably Persian limes (C. latifolia) imported from Mexico, because they were purchased from a store presumably in New Brunswick, New Jersey during an unspecified time of the year; Persian limes are the dominant lime in US grocery stores and Key Limes (Citrus aurantifolia) aren’t widely available year round in the US.
- Preparation: Refrigerated until use, freshly squeezed the day of the experiment, and used in the ratio 1mL lime juice per 1.5g of fish; distribution and exposed surface area may have varied a little bit (fish cubes measuring ~2.5cm along each side shaken in juice).​

“Disinfecting water:” (Sources cited by article: Protection from cholera by adding lime juice to food - results from community and laboratory studies in Guinea-Bissau in West Africa. & Effect of lime juice on Vibrio parahaemolyticus and Salmonella enterica inactivation during the preparation of the raw fish dish ceviche.)
- Limes used: No listed type or source. I’m guessing they are local limes (probably C. arantifolia?) from Guinea-Bissau in West Africa that were collected and used in 1996, but their size and variety were not specified.
- Preparation: The authors state that their previous case-controlled study (Rodrigues et al. 1997) demonstrated that “lime juice in sauce eaten with rice was protective,” but that they performed this newer study “Since a more specific message was needed on the quantity of lime to be used.” However, no formal measurements are used in this study either. The amount of food that was prepared and divided into three samples, the amount of lime juice used, and the size of the limes are all unclear. From the study, “Peanut sauce was prepared and divided into three portions for 8-10 persons each. One portion was prepared without lime juice, one with the juice of two limes, and one with five limes. Portions of rice with the three peanut sauces and one with curdled milk were homogenized to a paste with a mechanical homogenizer; 15 g of each portion was weighed, transferred to polypropylene tubes, and inoculated with 1.5 x 10^3 cells/gram food from the overnight culture. The inoculated food was incubated in a humid environment at 29+/- 1C.” Also if heat was used in the preparation of the lime juice (not specified of course), temperature sensitive compounds would have been destroyed. Any protective effects were probably due solely to a less hospitable pH and organic acids; since Persian limes are less acidic than Mexican limes, they would probably be less effective which is why specific information about which limes were used is important.​

“Killing pancreatic cancer:”
(Source cited by article: Bioactive compounds from Mexican lime (Citrus aurantifolia) juice induce apoptosis in human pancreatic cells.)
- Limes used: Mexican lime (Cirtus arantifolia Swingle) from the Texas A&M University-Kingsville Citrus Center Orchard, Walesco, TX that were collected during December of 2006.
- Preparation: The juice was freeze dried and stored at -20C until 462.4 g of freeze dried juice were extracted using a Soxhlet-type apparatus with 2000mL of chloroform at 55-60C for 8 hrs. The chloroform extract was filtered and the residue in the Soxhlet apparatus was re-extracted using acetone, MeOH, and MeOH water (8:2). All extracts were then concentrated, freeze dried, and stored at -20C until they were dissolved in various solvents for analysis by HPLC, the DDPH method for radical-scavenging activity, ABTS assay, MTT assay, cell lines/culture, and cell count assay.​

“Stopping Smoking:”
(Source cited by article: Efficacy of fresh lime for smoking cessation. )
- Limes used: Mexican limes (Citrus aurantiifolia). Unknown source because I can’t find the full article, but the study was completed by the medical faculty at Srinakharinwirot University, Nakhon Nayok, Thailand.
- Preparation: Unknown because I can’t find the full article; I don’t know where the author Ji accessed it if he even did.​
 
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The unfair bias one may receive just says, don't even ask these kinds of question. I shake my head and get why many within and outside of SDN have issues with hanging here. Just don't ask.
 
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FYI everyone, I'll be finishing my MD through the military when I'm done at NCNM with ND/DSOM (4 more years). The plan is emergency medicine to bust out my loans and to work on policy, family medicine, and research longterm. NDs get a solid education and work hard as physicians as far as I can tell. I'll always stand by them.

On a side, I was an EMT in undergrad and worked on an acute psych unit for 3 years before med school. Also served as a medical aid in Tanzania. I love medicine. I want to help healthcare evolve. Big changes are needed for all of us.

How come you're coming back to MD after ND?
 
FYI everyone, I'll be finishing my MD through the military when I'm done at NCNM with ND/DSOM (4 more years). The plan is emergency medicine to bust out my loans and to work on policy, family medicine, and research longterm. NDs get a solid education and work hard as physicians as far as I can tell. I'll always stand by them.

On a side, I was an EMT in undergrad and worked on an acute psych unit for 3 years before med school. Also served as a medical aid in Tanzania. I love medicine. I want to help healthcare evolve. Big changes are needed for all of us.
:troll:
 
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How come you're coming back to MD after ND?

I originally wanted to finish MS/MD/PhD focused on CAM research. I realized that I wanted to do family medicine, which isn't typical of MD/PhD students, and I wasn't too keen on the current MD curriculum and standard of care in family medicine. I also learned that MD family docs are very dissatisfied, and I wanted an immersion experience with CAM therapies, particularly Chinese medicine. I decided to switch to a 6-7 year ND/DSOM program at NCNM. Part of the rationale was that instead of finishing an MD/PhD in 7-10 years, I could finish ND/DSOM in 6 years in a curriculum/model that I found more suitable while still publishing articles, and then finish the MD later on if I wanted to.

The Chinese medicine program is really awesome at NCNM. They teach lineage-based classical Chinese medicine (CCM) instead of traditional Chinese medicine (TCM). I've learned a lot through the ND model and a lot about the world/healthcare policy through joining an emerging physician-level profession. That said, there are a lot of scope and status issues for NDs that are a major headache in the world at large. I want my credentials and experience to stand on par with no questions asked. Also, there are a lot of veterans in my family, and I'm now quite interested in health policy and public health. The VA is opening its doors to integrative medicine. Tracy Gaudet, MD, is the Director of Patient Centered Care and Cultural Transformation at the VA, and she is a huge proponent of integrative medicine as well as naturopathic doctors (her title speaks a lot to what NDs pride themselves on). So I want freedom, and I want more experience so that I can have a real opinion about these issues in the eyes of the world and affect change. In terms of practice, with these degrees, I will have a huge amount of freedom in terms of how I want to treat patients. My GF studies Chinese medicine. We want to go into practice together.

That said, the ND program stands on its own two feet. I just want to help connect worlds and help things transform for the better.
 
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@ND Student
How do you feel about the Naturopathic Medical Student Association sharing unscientific articles on health and nutrition through social media? It’s unfortunately one of several problems, but that article on lime juice inaccurately reports the findings of the studies it’s citing and makes statements like “A recent study found that the popular food known as ceviche, naturally containing pathogenic agents from fish, could be completely sanitized with lime juice.” Many gastrointestinal infections can kill or seriously harm people; I feel like misstating the risks of eating raw seafood and misleading people about how safe a certain food prep method can be is a fairly big f up ethically. That public Facebook post on lime juice has 160 likes and 65 shares from people who probably have a few hundred Facebook friends each.
 
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I'd have to give the article a thorough run through. My honest opinion is that the article is jumping on the green/organic/natural bandwagon and trying to get a lot of hits. 100's of lives per year is a pretty minuscule number, but seems large in the eyes of the general reader. My sense is that, yea, lime juice probably could save 100s of lives per year, but again I'd have to review the article.

The NMSA is just barely starting to get its act together this year. They've made a lot of progress so far (they had 500 likes this time last year. they hired an ED, made their convention better, have better chapter involvement, and got written into AMSA somehow). I'll forward along your concerns. I agree that they should most likely be more careful about what they post.
 
I originally wanted to finish MS/MD/PhD focused on CAM research. I realized that I wanted to do family medicine, which isn't typical of MD/PhD students, and I wasn't too keen on the current MD curriculum and standard of care in family medicine. I also learned that MD family docs are very dissatisfied, and I wanted an immersion experience with CAM therapies, particularly Chinese medicine. I decided to switch to a 6-7 year ND/DSOM program at NCNM. Part of the rationale was that instead of finishing an MD/PhD in 7-10 years, I could finish ND/DSOM in 6 years in a curriculum/model that I found more suitable while still publishing articles, and then finish the MD later on if I wanted to.

The question was asked before, but maybe you missed it, did you take medical school classes at Georgetown? Were you a first or second year MD student when you withdrew? You say "finish the MD later on" did you actually start it? If you haven't taken medical school coursework, I question the ability to draw a comparison strictly based on course names.

You claim that the education stands on it's own, but you will be severely limited in both the location, and services you can provide your patients.

What makes the ND curriculum better than the MD one?
 
The question was asked before, but maybe you missed it, did you take medical school classes at Georgetown? Were you a first or second year MD student when you withdrew? You say "finish the MD later on" did you actually start it? If you haven't taken medical school coursework, I question the ability to draw a comparison strictly based on course names.

You claim that the education stands on it's own, but you will be severely limited in both the location, and services you can provide your patients.

What makes the ND curriculum better than the MD one?
I switched programs at the beginning of my first year and entered the ND/DSOM program. By 'finish the MD' I was referring more to 'finishing my education'. I'll have to start from the beginning, unless the program takes ND credits (most don't at this point). But there were ~5 MDs and 2 DOs who started with me at NCNM, and several of my instructors are MDs, DOs, or MD/NDs. They've all agreed that the curriculums are comparable, as did my advisors at Georgetown.

I agree with you. I meant that the program 'stands on its own' b/c the program is rigorous and there are ~3000 NDs practicing as full scope PCPs right now.

I do not think the ND curriculum is better or worse than the MD one. It is different. I outlined my reasons for switching above (scope, standard of care, satisfaction rates, culture, program). It was just the best decision for me at the time. It has worked out well so far. I really like the program. I am not pro- or anti- MD/DO/ND.
 
The question was asked before, but maybe you missed it, did you take medical school classes at Georgetown? Were you a first or second year MD student when you withdrew? You say "finish the MD later on" did you actually start it? If you haven't taken medical school coursework, I question the ability to draw a comparison strictly based on course names.

You claim that the education stands on it's own, but you will be severely limited in both the location, and services you can provide your patients.

What makes the ND curriculum better than the MD one?
Oh i see what you mean. I knew I wanted to practice family medicine and I wanted to learn through a holistic model. The ND/CCM program provides that very thoroughly. I wanted more options with regard to how to approach longterm care, chronic complex conditions, and promoting wellness, and exposure/acknowledgment of dimensions of human experience that are often left out of healthcare/medical science. Also didn't like the idea of seeing 20-30 pts a day. I was also attracted to the Chinese medicine program. It is a great program.
 
I...I'm so confused. Chinese Medicine kills endangered animals. There, I said it.
 
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I switched programs at the beginning of my first year and entered the ND/DSOM program. By 'finish the MD' I was referring more to 'finishing my education'. I'll have to start from the beginning, unless the program takes ND credits (most don't at this point). But there were ~5 MDs and 2 DOs who started with me at NCNM, and several of my instructors are MDs, DOs, or MD/NDs. They've all agreed that the curriculums are comparable, as did my advisors at Georgetown.

I agree with you. I meant that the program 'stands on its own' b/c the program is rigorous and there are ~3000 NDs practicing as full scope PCPs right now.

I do not think the ND curriculum is better or worse than the MD one. It is different. I outlined my reasons for switching above (scope, standard of care, satisfaction rates, culture, program). It was just the best decision for me at the time. It has worked out well so far. I really like the program. I am not pro- or anti- MD/DO/ND.
If I give 10 monkeys typewriters it doesn't mean that monkeys are now authors.
 
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I'd have to give the article a thorough run through. My honest opinion is that the article is jumping on the green/organic/natural bandwagon and trying to get a lot of hits. 100's of lives per year is a pretty minuscule number, but seems large in the eyes of the general reader. My sense is that, yea, lime juice probably could save 100s of lives per year, but again I'd have to review the article.

Okay, but that isn't the claim being made.

The NMSA Facebook post & the linked article: “Lime Juice Could Save 100's of Thousands of Lives Each Year” by Sayer Ji, purveyor of quackery and the founder of GreenMedInfo where “Education Equals Empowerment.”

Off by several orders of magnitude. Petty detail, of course, but wonderfully illustrative of the problem. Touting cures and therapies that ?may? have a minuscule effect as though they were miraculous cures CAUSES HARM when the public's credulity is exploited. It spreads misinformation that could cost lives.
 
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This thread still exists?

Man, the distances people will go to try to justify their MD rejections are incredible these days...
 
Okay, but that isn't the claim being made.



Off by several orders of magnitude. Petty detail, of course, but wonderfully illustrative of the problem. Touting cures and therapies that ?may? have a minuscule effect as though they were miraculous cures CAUSES HARM when the public's credulity is exploited. It spreads misinformation that could cost lives.
lol. yep, that's pretty extreme. my mistake. still haven't read the article.
 
lol. yep, that's pretty extreme. my mistake. still haven't read the article.

Neither will most of the people who are harmed by it. They will scan the headline as it rolls past in their feed, noting only that some scientist group says that lime juice protects against infectious disease. It is only one incomplete and possibly false data point, but it will join their collection of those, along with "8 glasses of water a day" and "vaccines are unnatural/cause autism."
 
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I'd have to give the article a thorough run through. My honest opinion is that the article is jumping on the green/organic/natural bandwagon and trying to get a lot of hits. 100's of lives per year is a pretty minuscule number, but seems large in the eyes of the general reader. My sense is that, yea, lime juice probably could save 100s of lives per year, but again I'd have to review the article.

The NMSA is just barely starting to get its act together this year. They've made a lot of progress so far (they had 500 likes this time last year. they hired an ED, made their convention better, have better chapter involvement, and got written into AMSA somehow). I'll forward along your concerns. I agree that they should most likely be more careful about what they post.
Thank you for reviewing this issue, listening to my concerns, and recognizing that the Naturopathic Medical Student Association's (NMSA) social media posts should be more careful. I would suggest avoiding all content from similar sites like NaturalNews as well; even if one particular article seems fairly benign, the rest of the content hosted on these sites is generally pretty bad.

I did a little more research and it looks like it’s fairly routine for Sayer Ji and GreenMedInfo to misrepresent study results and cite bad studies. This Science Blogs article “I do not think that study shows what you think it shows” covers another article co-written by Sayer Ji and Kelly Brogan MD (HPV Vaccine Maker’s Study Proves Natural HPV Infection Beneficial, Not Deadly) that makes statements like it’s just an “assumption” and not necessarily a scientifically proven fact that cervical cancer can be fatal and HPV can cause cervical cancer.

Honestly the entire GreenMedInfo website is riddled with BS and misleading interpretations of study results. The information about vaccines and cancer treatment are particularly bad.
Some random examples:
Vaccines
Cancer Treatment
Allopathy
 
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So... I'll likely get a lot of flack for this, but that goes without saying on this forum ;-). This SDN experience has got me thinking. I've been speaking with MD/DO friends quite a bit the past couple days. I've decided to wholeheartedly stick with Naturopathic and Chinese medicine. I love the medicine, the standard of care, the culture, and the scope. I've seen NDs change a lot of people's lives and heal serious chronic disease. I want to help this profession grow. I won't be going back for an MD, but I look forward to working with them, as well as everyone else (DO, DC, LAc, NP, RN, PhD, etc.).
 
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