What is your view of naturopathic doctors?

[NontradCA]

if we look at evidence, then gastric bypass is the only statistically significant way for people to lose weight. I'm all for evidence but it's not the end-all-be-all. in those studies, it's not the method that's failing, it's people actually adhering to the method. I don't think anyone would debate that gastric bypass is the only way to lose weight, yet if you look at literature, that phrase is there.

Calorie restriction =/= health.

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[PL198]

basic thermodynamics.

what do you think bypass does, does it magically change the thermodynamics of the universe? it's no different than counting calories except it actually forces you to consume less.

 

[NontradCA]

basic thermodynamics.

what do you think bypass does, does it magically change the thermodynamics of the universe? it's no different than counting calories except it actually forces you to consume less.

Dat basic reading skill tho.

 

[PL198]

Dat basic reading skill tho.

huh? so you're saying you're against any form of calorie restriction? what do you propose someone does when they're already obese

 

[NontradCA]

huh? so you're saying you're against any form of calorie restriction? what do you propose someone does when they're already obese

Make lifestyle changes. It's not too much to ask for the patient to take control of their own health. All they need is motivation. It's hard to do, but it's clearly the best intervention for the obese.

Do you even CV/Resp/GI/Endo?

 

[deleted500612]

eh I wouldn't call it a fad diet. I'd hardly say there's zero evidence to support it either. there's no evidence that parachutes are superior to control. if every american switched to paleo, that would be 10 steps in the right direction and I'm not a proponent of paleo.

unquestionably from a nutrition standpoint the problems are as follows:
1) refined carbs
2) fat isn't actually evil
3) not enough protein

following paleo gets someone 100x closer to a decent diet than a typical american's diet does.

Agree with all three of your nutritional points. But see, the reason why paleo would be an improvement for most people is because it excludes garbage food like twinkies and ice cream, so right there most people are going to benefit. This is a testament to the harmfulness of refined junk foods more so than to the efficacy of the paleo diet. Any well balanced diet that excludes junk foods is going to yield the same improvement, this is not something unique to paleo. Paleo goes a step further and artificially restricts the breadth of healthy food options that people should eat, by arbitrarily labelling any foods that are traditionally farmed and/or refined (legumes, grains, rolled oats, potatoes, protein powder, etc.) as automatically bad for no reason other than our neanderthal ancestors did not eat them. This is misguided thinking.

 

[PL198]

Make lifestyle changes. It's not too much to ask for the patient to take control of their own health. All they need is motivation. It's hard to do, but it's clearly the best intervention for the obese.

Do you even CV/Resp/GI/Endo?

huh? like occupational?

if they want to lose fat, they're going to be at a deficit

 

[PL198]

Agree with all three of your nutritional points. But see, the reason why paleo would be an improvement for most people is because it excludes garbage food like twinkies and ice cream, so right there most people are going to benefit. This is a testament to the harmfulness of refined junk foods more so than to the efficacy of the paleo diet. Any well balanced diet that excludes junk foods is going to yield the same improvement, this is not something unique to paleo. Paleo goes a step further and artificially restricts the breadth of healthy food options that people should eat, by arbitrarily labelling any foods that are traditionally farmed and/or refined (legumes, grains, rolled oats, potatoes, protein powder, etc.) as automatically bad for no reason other than our neanderthal ancestors did not eat them. This is misguided thinking.

yeah absolutely agree there. I just look at it as a lesser evil compared to the crap people eat today

 

[deleted500612]

if we look at evidence, then gastric bypass is the only statistically significant way for people to lose weight. I'm all for evidence but it's not the end-all-be-all. in those studies, it's not the method that's failing, it's people actually adhering to the method. I don't think anyone would debate that gastric bypass is the only way to lose weight, yet if you look at literature, that phrase is there.

Huh? There are an endless amount of studies that show that calorie restriction and exercise will help people lose weight.

 

[NontradCA]

huh? like occupational?

if they want to lose fat, they're going to be at a deficit

Seriously?

 

[xffan624]

Agree with all three of your nutritional points. But see, the reason why paleo would be an improvement for most people is because it excludes garbage food like twinkies and ice cream, so right there most people are going to benefit. This is a testament to the harmfulness of refined junk foods more so than to the efficacy of the paleo diet. Any well balanced diet that excludes junk foods is going to yield the same improvement, this is not something unique to paleo. Paleo goes a step further and artificially restricts the breadth of healthy food options that people should eat, by arbitrarily labelling any foods that are traditionally farmed and/or refined (legumes, grains, rolled oats, potatoes, protein powder, etc.) as automatically bad for no reason other than our neanderthal ancestors did not eat them. This is misguided thinking.

Neanderthals weren't our ancestors in the strictest sense. They were an off shoot of the homo genus. There may have been an some inbreeding with homo sapiens, but not extensive.

 

[PL198]

Huh? There are an endless amount of studies that show that calorie restriction and exercise will help people lose weight.

that's what I said too but I talked to a bypass surgeon and he spouted a bunch of stuff about how they were extremely micro-managed and how in reality a bypass was the only thing that statistically was proven without huge behavior modulation in the subjects. obviously I don't agree with that but I can see how it could be interpreted that way in research

 

[NontradCA]

Neanderthals weren't our ancestors in the strictest sense. They were an off shoot of the homo genus. There may have been an some inbreeding with homo sapiens, but not extensive.

That misnomer really rustled your jimmies huh?

 

[deleted500612]

that's what I said too but I talked to a bypass surgeon and he spouted a bunch of stuff about how they were extremely micro-managed and how in reality a bypass was the only thing that statistically was proven without huge behavior modulation in the subjects. obviously I don't agree with that but I can see how it could be interpreted that way in research

Ah, well if you add that caveat in, I guess one could make an argument.

 

[xffan624]

That misnomer really rustled your jimmies huh?

I'm a nerd. I can't help it.

 

[superdoc2.0]

I got to admit it was pure genius to insert nature into their name. I mean who doesn't like nature (excluding the Koch brothers of course)? Osteopathic physicians really dropped the ball when they came up with a name that reminds people of bones...

 

[superdoc2.0]

Dude. I already decided I'm opening up a Holistic Osteopathic Center for Weight Loss™ in SF when I graduate.

I would suggest "The Naturally Holistic and Sustainable, Open and Tolerant, Center for Green and Renewable Weight Loss and Hot Yoga"

Nobody in San Fran could resist that many buzz words!

 

[Goro]

More like sugar intake, especially fructose. The literature is not shaping out ot be something like this:
fat: bad for heart.
sugar: bad for diabetes.

Some Of the data from the 1950s on the links between high fat/cholesterol etc and CV disease are now being questioned.

There is a lot of research going into fat being important in the pathogenesis of diabetes. Animal fats especially are linked to cancer and and all cause mortality. We already consume enough protein.

 

[Doctor Bob]

I only eat algae, diatoms, and whatever else I can skim from the water as I swim around, because that's what our way-way-way back ancestors ate. If it was good enough for them, it's good enough for me.

And I am losing so much weight it's ridiculous. Plus all the swimming has me in really good shape.

 

[AlteredScale]

I only eat algae, diatoms, and whatever else I can skim from the water as I swim around, because that's what our way-way-way back ancestors ate. If it was good enough for them, it's good enough for me.

And I am losing so much weight it's ridiculous. Plus all the swimming has me in really good shape.

Filter feeding at it's finest.

 

[MetalloBetalactamase]

Corrected...

I would put D.O. in front of US M.D. because they are both Physician and Chiropractor i.e. killing 2 birds with one stone.

You mock those 200 hours in "Special Spinal Poking" training we D.O.s get? It's Special! And it's Poking! So shush.

 

[PL198]

I only eat algae, diatoms, and whatever else I can skim from the water as I swim around, because that's what our way-way-way back ancestors ate. If it was good enough for them, it's good enough for me.

And I am losing so much weight it's ridiculous. Plus all the swimming has me in really good shape.

I agree that's stupid, but it's a much better alternative than guzzling down fast food, lbs of pasta and bread.

 

[BurghStudent]

I would suggest checking out http://www.naturopathicdiaries.com/. It's the blog of a naturopathic "doctor" who left the profession and is now exposing the quackery, lack of training, etc. Also, she's a Bastyr grad.

She's a looker.

 

[Psai]

She's a looker.

went and looked
did not regret
but then i read the second post: "My husband recently suggested"

abort

 

[KnuxNole]

What are you even talking bout? Sure there are non medicinal methods that would reduce mortality drastically. It's called diet and exercise. It's that simple. Adding the bs that's in naturopathic medicine just complicates it and creates confusion for patients, particularly those who want to take things the easy way.

Welcome to America. As we know, less than 5% of people don't want to take the easy way out of things in life!

 

[ACSurgeon]

No place for naturopaths or chiropractors in modern medicine. Registered dietitians and physical therapists are much more reliable replacements.

 

[PL198]

being a dietitian would blow because you have such an uphill battle every time. physicians think patients are noncompliant about taking their meds? imagine changing your diet

 

[Psai]

being a dietitian would blow because you have such an uphill battle every time. physicians think patients are noncompliant about taking their meds? imagine changing your diet

At least you can walk around in a long white coat

 

[ACSurgeon]

being a dietitian would blow because you have such an uphill battle every time. physicians think patients are noncompliant about taking their meds? imagine changing your diet

For those who do TPN and enteral nutrition, they have incredibly satisfying jobs. It would be painful to do weight loss counseling only.

 

[ACSurgeon]

At least you can walk around in a long white coat

You'll get yours soon enough.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

I see FP attendings do this a lot.

In our defense, there was a study a few years back (I will try to find it) that said through a single noninsulated layer, as long as you're pressing decently hard, then you don't actually lose anything when it comes to listening.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

In our defense, there was a study a few years back (I will try to find it) that said through a single noninsulated layer, as long as you're pressing decently hard, then you don't actually lose anything when it comes to listening.

Here it is...
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17202806

 

[PL198]

Here it is...
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17202806

I'm gonna bring this study into our school literature review and see what happens

 

[gracie369]

Here it is...
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17202806

Sooo that's why all my patients have a friction rub.

 

[beethousand]

 

[Mad Jack]

http://www.cnn.com/2015/03/31/health/anglo-saxon-potion-mrsa/index.html

This is a great example of science examining natural remedies- if they turn out to be legitimate, we're fully willing to utilize them, such as that medicine from tree bark, aspir-somethingrather. That's the big difference between conventional medicine and naturopathic medicine- there's no desire to rigorously test anything or see what works or what doesn't in naturopathy. The whole practice is based on tradition and nonsense, rather than rigorous and careful experimentation.

 

[PreMedBeauty]

http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/naturopathy-and-science/

Here is another pretty good link about naturopathy if anybody is trying to learn more like me.

Thanks for the helpful responses. I kind of always thought of naturopathic medicine as just using herbs and stuff cause some people don't want to use nasty "chemicals" to treat themselves. I really didn't realize how much crazy thinking there is out there.

I wanted to get peoples views on naturopathic medicine. My cousin is a naturopathic doctor and she seems to be a pretty sharp lady. From what I understand she underwent some pretty rigorous training. I imagine the naturopathic school you are trained at might have a big impact upon your competence. My cousin attended Bastyr Univiersity.

Do you think naturopathic medicine has positive contributions to make to medicine?

I was actually wondering the same.

 

[superdoc2.0]

Hilarious

 

[PreMedBeauty]

I'm not saying that allopathic physicians know everything about diet, doctors are not taught much at all about food or dieting in medical school to be honest. That doesn't negate the fact that there is zero evidence to support the paleo diet, none whatsoever. It's a fad diet based off the false premise that because our distant ancestors ate like hunter-gatherers it must be better for us. This is flawed logic on so many levels.

I think there should be a balance but it is up to the doctor to learn and be open to ideas as well.

 

[PreMedBeauty]

Seriously?

ya, welcome to the U.S. lol

 

[moonwake]

How about moving the discussion of the thread to Chiropractors now?

Are chiropractors just as dubious as naturopathic doctors?

I find that it's never consistent. Some chiros my wife and I went to were professional had a doctor sort of feel to them and others were insane pushing weird pills and herbal crap. Not to mention my massage therapist was pretty insane last time I went. I guess I wasn't ready to change my religion to coconut oil remedies.

A naturopathic doctor (I looked into before applying to med school) scares the crap out of me. Their whole field relies on the fact that there are people who refute modern medicine and research and if they were ever to come join the "dark side" there would be another 1,000 hobos on the street. Mehs

Like this guy's website looks pretty sketch. I feel like he's an alchemist of sorts
http://www.eastsidenaturalhealth.com/

 

[moonwake]

That's how they discovered it. Trying to kill an animal by breaking it's neck but they accidentally helped cure it from the flu (anecdotally of course).

 

[PikminOC]

This was a particularly reviewing post on the dubious training received by naturopathic doctors. Written by a former naturopathic physician.

http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/nd-confession-part-1-clinical-training-inside-and-out/

Solved on sdn

 

[PikminOC]

She's a looker.

How old are you when you finish these programs? I had a college student who couldn't get into med school and did this naturopathic school. She looks great! Meanwhile we are beat down and continually beat and old..

 

[PikminOC]

I think there should be a balance but it is up to the doctor to learn and be open to ideas as well.

be open. But when theres a lawsuit youd better have used evidence based treatment first or youll be done for..

 

[BurghStudent]

How old are you when you finish these programs? I had a college student who couldn't get into med school and did this naturopathic school. She looks great! Meanwhile we are beat down and continually beat and old..

Lol, no idea. It's supposed to be 4 years. I'm not a naturopath fan, but if I run across a fine ND, I think I'll start liking cancer-eliminating herbal tea.

 

[Malcolm X]

nm

 

[PikminOC]

nm

that state allows fourth graders to prescribe..

 

[PreMedBeauty]

be open. But when theres a lawsuit youd better have used evidence based treatment first or youll be done for..

Well yeah and that's why I've decided I will not be pursuing this route. lol However, I feel that there should be a curriculum related to this for MD. Also, for anything dealing with patients there needs to be some guidelines rather than just history proven.

 

[PikminOC]

Well yeah and that's why I've decided I will not be pursuing this route. lol However, I feel that there should be a curriculum related to this for MD. Also, for anything dealing with patients there needs to be some guidelines rather than just history proven.

Wait until you do medical school. There is so much to learn that is evidence based. You can learn whatever you want on your own. There is no time for "business " and "naturopathy" classes.