What is the problem...can one define it? Let your voice be heard...

[medgator]

It happens! Again keep in mind who is posting this, keep in mind government rules about how salary is reported.

UNC does the exact same thing

State govts have different rules about literally everything. This sounds like a base salary with some type of incentive to get it to 300+ which still sucks in Iowa

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Members don't see this ad.

 

[TheWallnerus]

I think at this point, you could

1) Post a rad onc residency position whose main site is Angola Louisiana and med students would bite
2) Post a rad onc job in Dickshooter Idaho for $1 and you'd get interest

 

[RadOncDoc21]

I think at this point, you could

1) Post a rad onc residency position whose main site is Angola Louisiana and med students would bite
2) Post a rad onc job in Dickshooter Idaho for $1 and you'd get interest

One man’s trash = sloppy seconds?

 

[deleted1111261]

State govts have different rules about literally everything. This sounds like a base salary with some type of incentive to get it to 300+ which still sucks in Iowa

I talked to Dr Marks about a job in Hendee, NC about 5 years ago, and offering $260-275k, and I was >5 years out.

 

[medgator]

One man’s trash = sloppy seconds?

I know someone who took sloppy seconds because of a "hot" location. It happens

 

[thecarbonionangle]

As long as suckers continue to take these jobs and clearly, Marks has plenty of takers, this will continue to happen until they find a floor nobody will take the job at all

 

[communitydoc13]

There is an incentive to post lower salaries. Gvt jobs are by law transparent regarding salary. Lots of high salaries is not a good look and I can speak with authority that many physician salaries that are posted for transparency purposes are not total compensation.

Hopefully real comp closer to what Wombat was getting in early 90s in terms of real dollars. Probably not.

 

[communitydoc13]

Also….absolutely no need to recruit for any radonc position in this environment.

 

[deleted1111261]

I know someone who took sloppy seconds because of a "hot" location. It happens

Unless you’re the first doctor at a new center, isn’t every job Sloppy Seconds? I don’t even know what this statement means. People leave, retire and die…

 

[RickyScott]

As long as suckers continue to take these jobs and clearly, Marks has plenty of takers, this will continue to happen until they find a floor nobody will take the job at all

Have heard that unc and wake forest pay 🐶 sh

 

[medgator]

Unless you’re the first doctor at a new center, isn’t every job Sloppy Seconds? I don’t even know what this statement means. People leave, retire and die…

People leave... If it is related to malignant hospital admin, not making partner etc and someone immediately takes that job because they were trying to break into that location, what is that called? Another positive "success point" on an ARRO survey?

 

[jondunn]

People leave... If it is related to malignant hospital admin, not making partner etc and someone immediately takes that job because they were trying to break into that location, what is that called? Another positive "success point" on an ARRO survey?

This is capitalism at work.

 

[RadOncDoc21]

Unless you’re the first doctor at a new center, isn’t every job Sloppy Seconds? I don’t even know what this statement means. People leave, retire and die…

Think Kim Kardashian

 

[radoncle]

This is a fake post. Because this salary is so far below MGMA median for rad onc of $550K. And no rad onc makes below MGMA median. JK.

New grads starting out at instructor level theoretically have a 25-30% chance (@Chartreuse Wombat) of being in this "salary bin."

BTW, anyone who thinks MGMA rad onc salary data is that reliable, you clearly aren't paying attention. Again... 1.1m new RT patients per year at 3.5w average duration of treatment means ~74K Americans per day get RT. If there are ~6000 rad oncs, this is ~12/day per RO in America, on average. Thus, it is almost mathematically impossible that the *average* salary in the US is $550K. Twenty years ago, this math (1.2m new RT pts/yr, 5 weeks RT duration, 3500 rad oncs) worked out to **33/day** per RO under beam on average. A $550K median MGMA was FAR more feasible back then!

I like the way you’ve calculated this, but does this account for the number of part time/locums/unemployed rad oncs in the country? 6000 rad oncs does not equate to 6000 FTEs.. but probably hard to know how many are not full time (and how many are part time voluntarily vs as a result of a shortage of options)

 

[Ray D. Ayshun]

This is capitalism at work.

This could have been response one to the initial post in this thread. And then the thread could've been closed.

 

[RickyScott]

This is capitalism at work.

Supply and demand and capitalist response is how we got here .

 

[jondunn]

This could have been response one to the initial post in this thread. And then the thread could've been closed.

It’s true of basically everything that gets discussed here. Can’t be surprised a large system puts a smalll PP (in any field) out of business anymore than being surprised that Barnes and Noble put a small mom and shop book store out of business or that Amazon put Barnes and Noble out of business later on.

This is capitalism at work

Not the way medicine should work IMO but here we are.

 

[Ray D. Ayshun]

It’s true of basically everything that gets discussed here. Can’t be surprised a large system puts a smalll PP (in any field) out of business anymore than being surprised that Barnes and Noble put a small mom and shop book store out of business or that Amazon put Barnes and Noble out of business later on.

This is capitalism at work

Not the way medicine should work IMO but here we are.

We are the commodity. Leadership has diminished our value, which doesn't strictly manifest wrt our bank accounts. It's simple.

 

[Mandelin Rain]

I think I’m taking crazy pills with you repeatedly posting the same thing over and over again when it’s been explained to you.

Someone demonstrated that Iowa posted the wrong number?

I saw a lot of hand waving and blind speculation, but certainly no explanation.

 

[RSAOaky]

Is the Iowa ad still up?

 

[RadOncDoc21]

Is the Iowa ad still up?

No, I took the job and I negotiated them down to 100k.

 

[Baws]

Is the Iowa ad still up?

Faculty Requisition Details - Jobs@UIOWA: Search and Apply for Jobs at The University of Iowa

Jobs@UIOWA: The official place to search and apply for jobs at The University of Iowa.

jobs.uiowa.edu

 

[fiji128]

Faculty Requisition Details - Jobs@UIOWA: Search and Apply for Jobs at The University of Iowa

Jobs@UIOWA: The official place to search and apply for jobs at The University of Iowa.

jobs.uiowa.edu

I guess it's just a reposting of that same Clinton Iowa job from last year. No takers after months and months suggest that overall pay/compensation is not good given the location and downside of being tethered to a distant mother ship with probably very little in upside potential.

 

[jondunn]

The upside is it’s a front to launder money through

 

[deleted1116990]

We have an entire generation of young rad oncs who have been gaslit into expecting income half of what it should be or potentially less.
Full time rad oncs should be making 700-800k. This is a highly compensated subspecialty, justified objectively by the professional collections for our services. This should be the expectation, not the outlier. 1.2M is the outlier, not 700k.

Middlemen and academic gaslighters have conspired to take a cut and convince graduating residents these expectations are unreasonable and they should expect incomes barely more than PCP level and on par with or less than Anesthesia, EM, etc.

It is ridiculous to try and justify that a graduating resident, after 9 years of post-college training should only expect his/her income to jump 3-4x from resident to attending level. The year before I went to med school, my AGI was nearly 200k. Why did I spend 9 years in training again forgoing that income and spending 200k on tuition (11 if you count post-bacc and med school applications)? Pursuing an altruistic career was a part of it. A part.

 

[deleted1116990]

I talked to Dr Marks about a job in Hendee, NC about 5 years ago, and offering $260-275k, and I was >5 years out.

I would have asked him if he meant that that was the signing bonus with a straight face.

 

[fiji128]

What is the lowest paying 1.0 FTE job in rad onc in the US (not counting fellowship/instructorships ect)? I heard like five years ago that the nyc programs were hiring new grads at about the $200k level, assuming you could even get an interview.

 

[RSAOaky]

Well can someone please bite the bullet and apply to the job so we can get to the bottom of it. I nominate @medgator and @jondunn to rocks paper scissors for the honor.

 

[deleted1116990]

Well can someone please bite the bullet and apply to the job so we can get to the bottom of it. I nominate @medgator and @jondunn to rocks paper scissors for the honor.

It doesn't even matter. It's so ridiculously far off from what it should be, the details are irrelevant whether the bonus actually pushes it to 310, 350, 370 whatever. 10%-tile MGMA is mid to upper 300s. This is what, sub 1%? Even if the person who keyed the job ad in fat fingered it and hit the "2" button on the number pad instead of the "5", that would still be low for a full-time rad onc job in Iowa City.

 

[RadOncDoc21]

It doesn't even matter. It's so ridiculously far off from what it should be, the details are irrelevant whether the bonus actually pushes it to 310, 350, 370 whatever. 10%-tile MGMA is mid to upper 300s. This is what, sub 1%? Even if the person who keyed the job ad in fat fingered it and hit the "2" button on the number pad instead of the "5", that would still be low for a full-time rad onc job in Iowa City.

100% agree. We’re better then this people!

 

[radiation]

At the very least, a radonc in Iowa should make the same as primary care in Iowa, provably a bit more to account for extra 2 yrs of trainging an extreme geographic inflexibility. Decreased salary joined at hip to geographic limitation as both are result of oversupply. And geography matters much more to most docs per surveys.

How about the fact that Iowa just has a bunch of crappy job offerings in general?

Faculty Requisition Details - Jobs@UIOWA: Search and Apply for Jobs at The University of Iowa

Jobs@UIOWA: The official place to search and apply for jobs at The University of Iowa.

jobs.uiowa.edu

 

[StIGMA]

How about the fact that Iowa just has a bunch of crappy job offerings in general?

Faculty Requisition Details - Jobs@UIOWA: Search and Apply for Jobs at The University of Iowa

Jobs@UIOWA: The official place to search and apply for jobs at The University of Iowa.

jobs.uiowa.edu

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If you knew an interventional cardiologist took a job at 385 (way below market), what would you think of their quality? Is it different for us?

 

[TheWallnerus]

How about the fact that Iowa just has a bunch of crappy job offerings in general?

Faculty Requisition Details - Jobs@UIOWA: Search and Apply for Jobs at The University of Iowa

Jobs@UIOWA: The official place to search and apply for jobs at The University of Iowa.

jobs.uiowa.edu

View attachment 354580

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that interventional cards salary is a damn sight more than the rad onc salary... we still sure the rad onc salary not "as is"?

 

[Mandelin Rain]

that interventional cards salary is a damn sight more than the rad onc salary... we still sure the rad onc salary not "as is"?

I'm sure Iowa has "mistakenly" listed all these salaries. Too low in some cases, too high in others. All so they fit my preconceived notions of what different types of doctors "should" make relative to eachother.

This has been EXPLAINED to you.

 

[deleted1111261]

yes, mandelin is correct .. it makes perfect sense to post an inaccurate low salary for a place that is hard to recruit for. No reason to correct it or explain that $239k means something far higher.

 

[RadOncDoc21]

yes, mandelin is correct .. it makes perfect sense to post an inaccurate low salary for a place that is hard to recruit for. No reason to correct it or explain that $239k means something far higher.

Buy low, sell high?

 

[Mandelin Rain]

yes, mandelin is correct .. it makes perfect sense to post an inaccurate low salary for a place that is hard to recruit for. No reason to correct it or explain that $239k means something far higher.

The simplest answer is never correct.

 

[TheWallnerus]

I'm sure Iowa has "mistakenly" listed all these salaries. Too low in some cases, too high in others. All so they fit my preconceived notions of what different types of doctors "should" make relative to eachother.

This has been EXPLAINED to you.

yes, mandelin is correct .. it makes perfect sense to post an inaccurate low salary for a place that is hard to recruit for. No reason to correct it or explain that $239k means something far higher.

It looks like U Iowa (and society) values interventional cards 61% more than rad onc. OTOH rad onc is probably 61000% easier to get into than interventional cards.

 

[Mandelin Rain]

It looks like U Iowa (and society) values interventional cards 61% more than rad onc. OTOH rad onc is probably 61000% easier to get into than interventional cards.

Now, that's just called a good value.

 

[RSAOaky]

It doesn't even matter. It's so ridiculously far off from what it should be, the details are irrelevant whether the bonus actually pushes it to 310, 350, 370 whatever. 10%-tile MGMA is mid to upper 300s. This is what, sub 1%? Even if the person who keyed the job ad in fat fingered it and hit the "2" button on the number pad instead of the "5", that would still be low for a full-time rad onc job in Iowa City.

What do you think an academic radiation oncologist in Iowa should make?

 

[deleted1111261]

What do you think an academic radiation oncologist in Iowa should make?

Good question

Kansas is border state. They start over 400k
Maybe that’s a decent starting point ?

 

[deleted1111261]

You know what’s disingenuous about the pediatric salary comments? They are underpaid. We shouldn’t make less. Everyone should make a fair wage. Especially the folks taking care of your kids.

 

[Mandelin Rain]

You know what’s disingenuous about the pediatric salary comments? They are underpaid. We shouldn’t make less. Everyone should make a fair wage. Especially the folks taking care of your kids.

Bingo.

 

[RickyScott]

it

You know what’s disingenuous about the pediatric salary comments? They are underpaid. We shouldn’t make less. Everyone should make a fair wage. Especially the folks taking care of your kids.

 

[deleted1116990]

What do you think an academic radiation oncologist in Iowa should make?

500k minimum. Ideally 600k+ to be market competitive with aforementioned centers.

But really whatever they bring in professional collections minus a reasonable percentage for department overhead. There are fair department chairs who will try to get their faculty close to this. In multiple square states near Iowa.
Iowa is known to have poor payor mix/reimbursements. But still. Unless this position is expected to see 2 consults a week or something, this "salary" is not fair. Not close. You will be bringing in far more than is paid out to you that will be funneled off for likely dubious uses elsewhere in the system.

 

[RadOncDoc21]

I’ve interviewed in many areas- academic, private, community hospitals, even VA. Trust me when I tell you anything less then 400k (full-time) in Iowa is an insult to the field.

 

[deleted1116990]

I’ve interviewed in many areas- academic, private, community hospitals, even VA. Trust me when I tell you anything less then 400k (full-time) in Iowa is an insult to the field.

Agree. I have had multiple hard (put salary offer on paper) and soft offers (discussed income potential) in this region and none were sub 500k.
Last I believe was Waterloo IA 650k.

 

[Lamount]

It looks like U Iowa (and society) values interventional cards 61% more than rad onc. OTOH rad onc is probably 61000% easier to get into than interventional cards.

How much more would you expect to be paid if there was a reasonable chance of you needing to be in the hospital at 2 am? For me, it would be quite a bit more haha

 

[Lamount]

How about the fact that Iowa just has a bunch of crappy job offerings in general?

Faculty Requisition Details - Jobs@UIOWA: Search and Apply for Jobs at The University of Iowa

Jobs@UIOWA: The official place to search and apply for jobs at The University of Iowa.

jobs.uiowa.edu

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Conclusion:
Rad Onc Salary is real... but I don't think one can easily draw conclusions about the job market based on this one place, as they appear to be undervaluing others as well.

Perhaps they are broke... who knows?

 

[communitydoc13]

But really whatever they bring in professional collections minus a reasonable percentage for department overhead

Be wary of this calculation. A large academic place with decent payors may support a 500k salary on 2 consults/week. A community place with 80% Medicare and significant Medicaid or advantage plans as the leftovers may need 6 consults/week and no more than 4 weeks off a year to justify this.