What are employers looking for in new graduates?

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love2hunt

VMCVM c/o 2021
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The post discussing what new grads are looking for in employers has me thinking... what about the opposite? What are employers looking for in me as a future DVM graduate?

Do my grades in vet school matter to a new employer? Club involvement? Summer jobs/experiences? Surgical skills?

What can/should I be spending my time and energy on right now in order to make myself a competitive, standout applicant? I’m looking for more DVM job specific things rather than more generic “communication, write a good cover letter” type stuff.

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From what I've heard from practitioners (I've never done GP so take with a grain of salt) the two biggest things are 1) ability to balance tasks/keeping good notes and charts, and 2)interpersonal/staff management skills and client communication. Ability to be a team player and work with others. The "softer" skills if you will - the things a lot of new grads are lacking because they have spent the last 4 years in the bubble of academia. I doubt any employer will ask about your GPA or NAVLE score....and honestly, no one cares if you were secretary in such-and-such a club. Clubs are for high school IMO.

@DVMDream @dyachei @LetItSnow might be able to give more detailed answers.
 
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I'm not an employer, but I talk to lots of them as a relief vet, and WTF is right about the "soft skills" and attitude - an employer can teach someone "hard" skills faster and better than they can teach attitudes (and "soft" skills like communication). They won't care about your grades or your rank in the class, they'll care about your attitude, ability to communicate, and ability to think outside the box (by "the box", I mean the ivory tower of academia).
 
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Ability to be a normal approachable honest and likeable person with good bedside manner.

Someone who can accept their failures and not have a stick up their ass, or hide their mistakes. That is a pain in the ass for EVERYONE.

A team player who looks out for the staff and other doctors.

Someone who is respectful of staff, but can hopefully stand their own and gain respect from staff right away.

A multitasker who can stay calm when multiple things are going on and **** hits the fan with emergencies stacked on your jam packed schedule. At the same time, someone who isn't too stubborn to ask for help when needed, whether it be from staff or colleagues. Also be accepting of help when offered.

Someone who has broad availabilities. A new hire that is available to work nights and weekends are worth a ton more than those who won't. The longer associates are in practice, the more they tend to want to do Mon-Fri 8-5 hours. If you can let the existing doctors move towards that, in general you will be so much more appreciated.

Agreed, not many people care about GPA and board scores. I doubt you'll ever be asked. And I wouldn't put it on your resume.

As far as skills go, the more experience you can have in dentistry before graduating, the better it will be. It's helpful if you are self sufficient for basic surgery, but honestly that's not super important, unless the job specifies you need to be proficient. If you're a new grad most people won't expect much from you anyway. If you're into exotics, that may be important for some clinics (if the clinic sees NO exotics, that may be good for some places that want to expand but bad for places where no one else wants anything to do with it because they will have to deal with your patients when you're not there). For holistic practices, it would be great if you can get certified in acupuncture. If you are proficient in wellness protocols and skin/ears, it will help you tremendously in practice. If going into GP, I would try not to be clueless about those things.

Honestly the "person" that you are is so much more important than what you did in school. You can teach medicine/surgery stuff, but you can't teach someone to be a likeable doctor or not be an dingus. Having an interest in GP type stuff is good too (e.g. Electives in GP, community medicine, spay/neuter , dermatology, dentistry, etc...).
 
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Ability to be a normal approachable honest and likeable person with good bedside manner.

Someone who can accept their failures and not have a stick up their ass, or hide their mistakes. That is a pain in the ass for EVERYONE.

A team player who looks out for the staff and other doctors.

Someone who is respectful of staff, but can hopefully stand their own and gain respect from staff right away.

A multitasker who can stay calm when multiple things are going on and **** hits the fan with emergencies stacked on your jam packed schedule. At the same time, someone who isn't too stubborn to ask for help when needed, whether it be from staff or colleagues. Also be accepting of help when offered.

Someone who has broad availabilities. A new hire that is available to work nights and weekends are worth a ton more than those who won't. The longer associates are in practice, the more they tend to want to do Mon-Fri 8-5 hours. If you can let the existing doctors move towards that, in general you will be so much more appreciated.

Agreed, not many people care about GPA and board scores. I doubt you'll ever be asked. And I wouldn't put it on your resume.

As far as skills go, the more experience you can have in dentistry before graduating, the better it will be. It's helpful if you are self sufficient for basic surgery, but honestly that's not super important, unless the job specifies you need to be proficient. If you're a new grad most people won't expect much from you anyway. If you're into exotics, that may be important for some clinics (if the clinic sees NO exotics, that may be good for some places that want to expand but bad for places where no one else wants anything to do with it because they will have to deal with your patients when you're not there). For holistic practices, it would be great if you can get certified in acupuncture. If you are proficient in wellness protocols and skin/ears, it will help you tremendously in practice. If going into GP, I would try not to be clueless about those things.

Honestly the "person" that you are is so much more important than what you did in school. You can teach medicine/surgery stuff, but you can't teach someone to be a likeable doctor or not be an dingus. Having an interest in GP type stuff is good too (e.g. Electives in GP, community medicine, spay/neuter , dermatology, dentistry, etc...).

What do you mean by working nights? Most GPs close by 7-8PM, some earlier. Or are you talking more for emergency clinics?


I agree on the "people skills" are more important than the surgical/medical ability, clubs you were in, GPA, etc. That isn't to say blow off learning, know common things, common symptoms, know what test you need to run for a condition you suspect, but no one is going to blink if you look up the difference between ACTH Stim and LDDS, they will care if you can't decide you need to test for cushings on a dog with all the symptoms and chemistry abnormalities.

Learn how to communicate well with clients, staff, colleagues. Be nice to your fellow vets, we aren't in competition with each other. As a new grad, realize you aren't going to know many things, don't be afraid to ask, but also recognize you know more than you realize. Probably one of my biggest weaknesses is lacking confidence. Don't be big headed and assume you know everything but realize that you've been taught and have learned common things for common symptoms, start there and work up.

Dentals are important for GP, try to get some experience here, but it will take practice to get comfortable.
 
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If I had a $1 for everytime someone said you can teach medicine/surgery but not attitude....

I used to not understand why that was the case. Why wouldn't someone have a good attitude? It didn't seem like a realistic way to narrow a list of people down.

It just took working in a larger hospital with more turnover on assistants to realize what an enormous difference it makes.
 
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Awesome replies y’all, thanks for the insight. I had a little bit of management experience before vet school, and agree that I’d take the guy who has a good attitude and work ethic over the guy who has all the technical knowledge. Guess I should have known that would apply here, but hard to see that when I’m so bogged down in learning all the technical stuff right now. Also glad that GPA and clubs don’t really matter. Still focusing on grades to help with scholarship money and just because it helps motivate me to learn the material, but it does take some pressure off knowing it doesn’t have a huge impact on future job prospects.

Let me switch gears a bit and ask, assuming I had those people skills/attitude attributes your looking for: What would you focus your time on if you were back in vet school? What skills do you wish you’d honed while here that would have helped you both get the job and then do it well your first week in practice?

Looks like dentals are one big thing I hadn’t thought about. Same with acupuncture (just had our first brief exposure to that in lecture this week). Our school is offering optional certification courses in laser therapy and basic wildlife restraint/rehab coming up. Are those kinds of things better resume boosters and helpful skills to have?
 
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What do you mean by working nights? Most GPs close by 7-8PM, some earlier.

Even then, unless each doctor takes 12hr shifts, someone is the closer who works 12-8 rather than 8-4.

Most people with families like to be home for dinner and to tuck their kids into bed. For a minority of people, it makes childcare easier by taking on the later shift (you're home to get kids off to school in the AM before work, and spouse picks up in the PM), but that means you don't get to spend much time with the kids or spouse.
 
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What do you mean by working nights? Most GPs close by 7-8PM, some earlier. Or are you talking more for emergency clinics?.
That's late enough to be a problem for a lot of people, especially if you add a 30 minutes drive home (and that's assuming you actually get out when the clinic closes). If you've got kids, that means missing dinner with them, and maybe even missing bedtime. Even if you don't, getting home close to 9 means you won't have a lot of time to spend with your SO, won't be able to meet friends for dinner, etc. In some clinics, the same vet won't always work the late shift, but in other clinics it might mean leaving work near 8 pm every night.
 
Even then, unless each doctor takes 12hr shifts, someone is the closer who works 12-8 rather than 8-4.

Most people with families like to be home for dinner and to tuck their kids into bed. For a minority of people, it makes childcare easier by taking on the later shift (you're home to get kids off to school in the AM before work, and spouse picks up in the PM), but that means you don't get to spend much time with the kids or spouse.

Hmm, this is why I wasn't sure. Clinic I used to work at closed at 7...we were all scheduled for 12 hour shifts. I wouldn't have minded alternating morning/evening shifts, but never happened. Hence why I no longer work there.
 
That's late enough to be a problem for a lot of people, especially if you add a 30 minutes drive home (and that's assuming you actually get out when the clinic closes). If you've got kids, that means missing dinner with them, and maybe even missing bedtime. Even if you don't, getting home close to 9 means you won't have a lot of time to spend with your SO, won't be able to meet friends for dinner, etc. In some clinics, the same vet won't always work the late shift, but in other clinics it might mean leaving work near 8 pm every night.

Oh trust me, I get this. Did it for over a year. Tried to explain why it wasn't acceptable to my employer. Got looked at like I had 5 heads and a discussion of "what he dealt with as a vet."
 
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Hmm, this is why I wasn't sure. Clinic I used to work at closed at 7...we were all scheduled for 12 hour shifts. I wouldn't have minded alternating morning/evening shifts, but never happened. Hence why I no longer work there.
Yeah so that's why it's helpful to have someone who doesn't mind doing the later shifts.

Also, evening and weekends are esp brutal for people with kids. When they're young, it's a huge hassle for child care unless you have a spouse or family nearby who can help. When they're older, that's when all of the recitals and games/competitions and whatever else extracurricular things are occurring that you can't attend. It also sucks in general if your schedule is off from regular school hours since it means you won't be home to spend time with them.

With my current schedule, I would not see my kids at all 4 days out of the week including Saturdays, if I had kids. It just wouldn't be tenable. it only works out for me now because I don't have kids, and my current schedule makes it possible for the other doctors in the practice to better keep mother's hours
 
Yeah so that's why it's helpful to have someone who doesn't mind doing the later shifts.

Also, evening and weekends are esp brutal for people with kids. When they're young, it's a huge hassle for child care unless you have a spouse or family nearby who can help. When they're older, that's when all of the recitals and games/competitions and whatever else extracurricular things are occurring that you can't attend. It also sucks in general if your schedule is off from regular school hours since it means you won't be home to spend time with them.

With my current schedule, I would not see my kids at all 4 days out of the week including Saturdays, if I had kids. It just wouldn't be tenable. it only works out for me now because I don't have kids, and my current schedule makes it possible for the other doctors in the practice to better keep mother's hours

I get that. But you also have to remember many of us without kids have friends/family that are off on weekends or during those evening hours. One person shouldn't be responsible for all weekend/evening hours just because they don't have kids. The responsibility should be split. Which means, new grads should be willing to work evenings and weekends but they shouldn't be forced nor feel forced to cover only those hours or to even cover a majority of those hours. And what if that new grad has children? Or wants children? Then what?

I think it is a little unfair/unrealistic to look at a childless new grad and expect them to cover most of the evenings and weekends.
 
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Ugh! No understanding that the past is sometimes better left in the past.

I know. I can't stand that type of bitterness. A true mentor would want things to be better for his mentees.

Yeah so that's why it's helpful to have someone who doesn't mind doing the later shifts.

Also, evening and weekends are esp brutal for people with kids. When they're young, it's a huge hassle for child care unless you have a spouse or family nearby who can help. When they're older, that's when all of the recitals and games/competitions and whatever else extracurricular things are occurring that you can't attend. It also sucks in general if your schedule is off from regular school hours since it means you won't be home to spend time with them.

With my current schedule, I would not see my kids at all 4 days out of the week including Saturdays, if I had kids. It just wouldn't be tenable. it only works out for me now because I don't have kids, and my current schedule makes it possible for the other doctors in the practice to better keep mother's hours

I hate taking this off on a tangent, but....I really dislike this concept. If people want to have children, sure - go for it. But those of us without children (or those of us without immediate family) should not be inconvenienced or have more difficult schedules so that those people can have "mother's hours". My life and my time are just as valuable as those of someone who chose to procreate.

I do understand what you're saying and agree that such hours with kids are very difficult....but a potential employee's ability to take call for these people (ostensibly due to fewer overt familial obligations) should not be something that is factored into a hiring decision on the potential bosses' parts. That's not exactly fair (and yes I know, life isn't fair, which is why it still will be considered...I just hate the fact that it is).
 
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Anyway back to the "what would you do differently" question -

I definitely think workshops and wetlabs that can introduce you to new and upcoming techniques that you may or may not be directly exposed to in school are very helpful.

In terms of what I would do differently....I was a shy, somewhat passive wallflower all through school until fourth year and I took far more...ahem...bull excrement than I needed to from the more...let's just call them "dominant" members of my class. I wished I can worked on my confidence and teambuilding skills before then. The good, the bad, and the ugly of it. For example, how to properly deal with someone in your group who is being confrontational or not pulling their weight. You won't have a chief resident to run to and complain about them in real life - you have to sit down and talk with them as a colleagues about how you can bury the hatchet and work together more efficiently. How to help out a colleague who is obviously in the weeds but is too scared to admit it. How to be openly and vocally appreciative of your techs even if you're not a big talker. Etc.
 
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I get that. But you also have to remember many of us without kids have friends/family that are off on weekends or during those evening hours. One person shouldn't be responsible for all weekend/evening hours just because they don't have kids. The responsibility should be split. Which means, new grads should be willing to work evenings and weekends but they shouldn't be forced nor feel forced to cover only those hours or to even cover a majority of those hours. And what if that new grad has children? Or wants children? Then what?

I think it is a little unfair/unrealistic to look at a childless new grad and expect them to cover most of the evenings and weekends.

I never said anyone had to or that they should be expected to. I personally only take these shifts because I actually prefer it that way. But that doesn't mean people aren't thankful for it.

But if the question is what are things employers are looking for? Someone who is willing/able to take more late/weekend shifts is a plus. That's all.

Just like for the god awful clinics that make associates be on call For after hour triage/emergencies, it would be a huge plus to have a new grad that was willing to do a ton of that. Doesn't mean it's realistic to expect someone to be ok with it or take it. I would say ew, no. So if a new grad who was willing to do that 2-3 nights a week were to come along, they could very well be hired over me.
 
I never said anyone had to or that they should be expected to. I personally only take these shifts because I actually prefer it that way. But that doesn't mean people aren't thankful for it.

But if the question is what are things employers are looking for? Someone who is willing/able to take more late/weekend shifts is a plus. That's all.

Just like for the god awful clinics that make associates be on call For after hour triage/emergencies, it would be a huge plus to have a new grad that was willing to do a ton of that. Doesn't mean it's realistic to expect someone to be ok with it or take it. I would say ew, no. So if a new grad who was willing to do that 2-3 nights a week were to come along, they could very well be hired over me.

I'm definitely with you on that - I was just cautioning that new grads will sometimes bend over backwards to accommodate a potential employer because they do not yet value themselves or their time as compared to the "old hands" or the people with family. So while it may be something employers will consider (be that right or wrong) new grads should always remind themselves that their time and lives are valuable and they shouldn't be so desperate to be hired that they take on an unfair load.
 
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I know. I can't stand that type of bitterness. A true mentor would want things to be better for his mentees.



I hate taking this off on a tangent, but....I really dislike this concept. If people want to have children, sure - go for it. But those of us without children (or those of us without immediate family) should not be inconvenienced or have more difficult schedules so that those people can have "mother's hours". My life and my time are just as valuable as those of someone who chose to procreate.

I do understand what you're saying and agree that such hours with kids are very difficult....but a potential employee's ability to take call for these people (ostensibly due to fewer overt familial obligations) should not be something that is factored into a hiring decision on the potential bosses' parts. That's not exactly fair (and yes I know, life isn't fair, which is why it still will be considered...I just hate the fact that it is).

I'm not saying it's fair or that it's right. The way we treat work/life balance in this profession is abominable overall. And raising a family without help is so damn hard. It's totally not fair whichever you look at it. Having a kid when you're on production based pay without maternity leave, AND needing to figure out childcare is ****ty beyond belief. As a childless person with a spouse who has a super flexible schedule, I also get that it's not fair to me to have to go above and beyond and sacrifice my life for the inconveniences caused by my colleagues' children. But it kind of just is what it is, and unfortunately, it does affect hiring to some extent.

It's not so much that someone is necessarily trying to take advantage of someone's lack of children. If an associate position is open where the desired shifts to be filled are heavier on the ****ty shifts, either a new hire comes along that is fine with those shifts, or you need to readjust your existing doctor's. Obviously, in most cases there will be some compromise on everyone's part. But if you can hire someone who is willing to work a schedule that makes the more senior doctors happier, all the better. And it's not always about childcare. Actually of the hospitals I've worked at, the people who desired AND got the mon-fri 8-5 hours with minimal weekends were the vets without children who just had seniority.
 
I'm definitely with you on that - I was just cautioning that new grads will sometimes bend over backwards to accommodate a potential employer because they do not yet value themselves or their time as compared to the "old hands" or the people with family. So while it may be something employers will consider (be that right or wrong) new grads should always remind themselves that their time and lives are valuable and they shouldn't be so desperate to be hired that they take on an unfair load.

I think at the end of the day, it comes down to supply and demand. If the jobs are scarce, or there is a very specific job you want, you may have to make more concessions. If there are more options you can make more demands, whether it be in your schedule or compensation. Thankfully the job market is really looking up compared to 5-10 years ago. If anything, a lot of employers are fighting to get associates.

But I will say, even if you start out with a crappy end of the stick, it doesn't mean you're stuck with it forever. Once you prove yourself to be indispensable with a strong clientele, become a good producer, become that power associate that can bust through walk-ins, and/or the dental guru or whatever you bring to the table, if something like your schedule becomes a deal breaker for you, you can ask for a change. If it comes down to losing you and needing to start fresh with a new person, or find a way to make it work, most employers and associate colleagues will work with you, even if they weren't when you were a newbie.
 
This is a very timely inquiry and there are so many aspects to this question. I do think that Minnerbelle's first answer is a very good start.

I would add the following (as an employer):

I don't care about your grades that much, many people test well, but are terrible at doing things and interacting with clients. I'd like very much if you had JOBS before college especially if you worked as a vet assistant for a couple of year before vet school.

Getting out of vet school is just the beginning. You are a new grad with much to learn despite all you have learned. The hard work now starts and for the rest of your life. YOU have to start making decisions and learn to communicate with the client yourself. It is NOT enough to say I recommend doing X. You must learn to position your recommendation in your client's mind so that they understand WHY what you want to do is good for their pet. You need to learn to do the hard work of figuring out what is going on with their pet, to think things through several steps down the diagnosis path and where the client MIGHT end up in terms of time, cost and treatment effort on their part so that can better understand what they might need to do, if your initial suspicious are accurate.

In vet school, someone else in private practice did this hard work to end up referring a complex case to your school so that it can be fixed. At that point, the problem is already likely well defined.

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The rubber meets the road when you need to make a specific recommendation to a specific client to spend money because you want them to do so.

You are presented with a 10 year old indoor cat that is eating well but losing weight and has not been to the vet in five years.. You get a history and say:
"I want to do blood test on your cat to check it internal organs". The client declines and wonders if the cat need to be dewormed.
You repeat your recommendation, the client declines and worries aloud about money.

What do you do now? Give up and documentation your recommendation and let it go?
Or do you say something like:

I'm concerned about the weight loss. There are several reasons we can be seeing weight loss with a good appetite, especially in a 10 year old cat. The first thing we need to rule out is an over active thyroid (also know as feline hyperthyroidism). Aside: remember the audience is the client not the resident and professors you needed to impress in vet school with your medical terminology virtuosity. The less educated the client to more likely you will lose them using big medical words.

Then you continue and say an over active metabolism can cause weight loss as we are seeing here, it can also lead to heart disease, high blood pressure, even detached retinas and blindness IF uncorrected. It also makes the cat very grumpy. The treatment for this is an inexpensive tablet given twice a day for life. But the only way to learn if this is what your cat has is to do the blood test. I know it is a lot of money (Aside: always say this if needed) but this is what your cat needs us to do. (Of course, you ARE going to include the Free T4 in the test right? Otherwise, you will annoy the client by making them come back in a couple of days for the separate Free T4 panel, when you learn the T4 is within normal limits but toward the high end of normal). This will cost them more money than if you did it in the first place. Think things through - be prepared.

It is this kind of stuff that you will have to deal with every day assuming you work in that kind of medically excellent general practice.
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As a new graduate, you are going to be much slower at first than someone who is more experienced as you will be checking the references for all kinds of things. So, you will likely, in a busier place, get behind and then need to stay late because your chart need to be (should be) finished before you go home for the day. So you might need to stay late to finish. Why? It will start all over again in the next day, and unless the next day is slow you will get further behind. Also, your co-workers may need to consult your charts the next day or later the same day to answer a question from the same client, not to mention memory is faulty and you might forget an important detail.

What is your attitude toward work and your profession? Do you strive every day to learn, to be better, to re-examine everything you did to learn to do something better next time? Can you really be excellent by only working 40 hours in order to have a good work/life balance. Do you enjoy what you do so much that it does not seem like work? Otherwise, why are you running for the door at quitting time.

You ARE going to make a mistake and cause harm or kill something because you are new. Unless you are very lucky or good it will happen. People make their own luck via preparation. Are you willing to examine in detail what went wrong, your part in it and learn from the failure no matter now painful?

Don't blow things off or minimize stuff because confronting the screwups makes you feel bad? Would you want the pilots on your flight to your vacation garden spot to act like that? Gee: "I did not realize that we had so many people on the plane and that the headwinds used so much fuel and run out before we get to the destination airport?" At least the pilots have the incentive to get in right otherwise THEY might die too. The airline industry examines EVERY crash in detail to learn how to avoid the problem the next time. You should do the same in your profession.

Here is another VERY important thing to realize: The last vet to see the pet said they think that X is the apparently unresolved problem. Do NOT accept X at face value. Why do you assume the last person was correct? Did you read the ENTIRE history BEFORE going in to see the pet? Why not? Are you going to take your own history or rely on some one else's interpretation? The former is the only correct course of action. Anything else is lazy and mediocre. Judgemental? Yes. What kind of vet (or MD) do you want to see your pet or family member.

Another thing: Get comfortable charging for your time, that exam fee pays you, the assistant, the receptionist, as do the test and medications you prescribe. Your time is valuable, you expect to get paid, so does your employer by charging the fees needed to pay everyone and keep the place open and in good repair. If you are not comfortable in our skills and feel bad about charging for your limited knowledge, too bad, get better, improve, learn and strive for excellence. Then you will feel good about charging for your time, you should. You also cannot take all day on a small number of cases, otherwise you are not generating the revenue needed to help pay for everything including your self.

Have a little sympathy for the business owner. Profit is not a dirty word. You have to make a profit on everything to provide the funds to pay for everything and everyone, to provide money for repair and new gadgets, raises, bonuses, computers, new paint jobs. The owner deserves a return on their hard work, risk taking and to compensate for the fact that they are likely personally guaranteeing every financial commitment the practice has.

You worry about your rental, car payment and student loans.
The boss worries about having enough money for rent, payroll, taxes, lease payments on computers, other equipment, paying the lab bill, insurances, utilities, internet, new computers, paying people care for the equipment, cleaning people, building maintenance which the landlord in a lease space almost never does. You think you have alot to deal with and you do. The boss has more, way more, you have no idea. So cut them some slack, the number of decisions and screwups that happen daily are maddening. The demands on money are relentless and the boss HAS to be concerned about this.

Ask yourself. Do you want to work in a day practice that basically does wellness, gives vaccines handles minor issues and turfs all the complex stuff (Personally this would be boring) to internal medicine, emergency, etc. . If so, then you are spared a lot of hard work since you won't have any cases to manage for the long term, no need to educate the client and explain complex diagnostic trees. Try to know what you want and find a place that matches. Many new grads change jobs after the first year because they are shocked by the first job and think the next jobs will be better and it might.

Finally: Be a throughout, excellent, cooperative, helpful vet that advocates for the pet. You will do the right thing and help the pet and therefore generate the needed revenue and then some. Money is not the motivation for what we do but a natural positive consequence of doing a medically excellent job.
 
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Ask yourself. Do you want to work in a day practice that basically does wellness, gives vaccines handles minor issues and turfs all the complex stuff (Personally this would be boring) to internal medicine, emergency, etc. . If so, then you are spared a lot of hard work since you won't have any cases to manage for the long term, no need to educate the client and explain complex diagnostic trees. Try to know what you want and find a place that matches. Many new grads change jobs after the first year because they are shocked by the first job and think the next jobs will be better and it might.
I was all with you until I got to this point of your post, and as a GP I take offense to your characterization and tell you it isn't true at all. GPs do far more than "basically" what you said, and it IS hard work. Saying that GPs don't do a lot of hard work because they "turf all the complex stuff" to specialists is both wrong and insulting. I worked damn bloody hard yesterday, saw more than a few complex cases (with complex owners), and didn't refer anything. Sometimes I think specialists are the ones who are spared a lot of hard work because their clients are pre-selected to be only those who have a focused (if not identified) problem with owners who've already decided they are willing to pursue (and pay for) care. It's the GPs who are faced with the nebulous ADR patient (where the problematic body system can't even be determined yet) with clients who aren't fully forthcoming with the patient's history, or their own goals and limits (of time, patience, or money). Or the genetic nightmare bulldog who is arthritic, allergic, and infected, but with clients who want to do only "natural" things and need to be convinced to properly treat their dog. I welcome the wellness and vaccine appointments as a break from the stress and a chance for puppy kisses to brighten my day!
 
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Can you really be excellent by only working 40 hours in order to have a good work/life balance. Do you enjoy what you do so much that it does not seem like work? Otherwise, why are you running for the door at quitting time.
I liked a lot of your points except this one. Yes, you CAN really be excellent by "only" working 40 hours in order to have a good work/life balance. And "only 40 hours" is an incredibly ridiculous thing to say. 40 hours is plenty (or should be). Burn out is a real thing. Doesn't matter how much you love your job, doing the same thing for 40+ hours a week is stressful (and vet med is even more stressful). This sentence makes it sound like anyone who wants to have a life outside of their job as a vet is "less than" and frankly that's bull****.
 
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This is a very timely inquiry and there are so many aspects to this question. I do think that Minnerbelle's first answer is a very good start.

I would add the following (as an employer):

I don't care about your grades that much, many people test well, but are terrible at doing things and interacting with clients. I'd like very much if you had JOBS before college especially if you worked as a vet assistant for a couple of year before vet school.

Getting out of vet school is just the beginning. You are a new grad with much to learn despite all you have learned. The hard work now starts and for the rest of your life. YOU have to start making decisions and learn to communicate with the client yourself. It is NOT enough to say I recommend doing X. You must learn to position your recommendation in your client's mind so that they understand WHY what you want to do is good for their pet. You need to learn to do the hard work of figuring out what is going on with their pet, to think things through several steps down the diagnosis path and where the client MIGHT end up in terms of time, cost and treatment effort on their part so that can better understand what they might need to do, if your initial suspicious are accurate.

In vet school, someone else in private practice did this hard work to end up referring a complex case to your school so that it can be fixed. At that point, the problem is already likely well defined.

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The rubber meets the road when you need to make a specific recommendation to a specific client to spend money because you want them to do so.

You are presented with a 10 year old indoor cat that is eating well but losing weight and has not been to the vet in five years.. You get a history and say:
"I want to do blood test on your cat to check it internal organs". The client declines and wonders if the cat need to be dewormed.
You repeat your recommendation, the client declines and worries aloud about money.

What do you do now? Give up and documentation your recommendation and let it go?
Or do you say something like:

I'm concerned about the weight loss. There are several reasons we can be seeing weight loss with a good appetite, especially in a 10 year old cat. The first thing we need to rule out is an over active thyroid (also know as feline hyperthyroidism). Aside: remember the audience is the client not the resident and professors you needed to impress in vet school with your medical terminology virtuosity. The less educated the client to more likely you will lose them using big medical words.

Then you continue and say an over active metabolism can cause weight loss as we are seeing here, it can also lead to heart disease, high blood pressure, even detached retinas and blindness IF uncorrected. It also makes the cat very grumpy. The treatment for this is an inexpensive tablet given twice a day for life. But the only way to learn if this is what your cat has is to do the blood test. I know it is a lot of money (Aside: always say this if needed) but this is what your cat needs us to do. (Of course, you ARE going to include the Free T4 in the test right? Otherwise, you will annoy the client by making them come back in a couple of days for the separate Free T4 panel, when you learn the T4 is within normal limits but toward the high end of normal). This will cost them more money than if you did it in the first place. Think things through - be prepared.

It is this kind of stuff that you will have to deal with every day assuming you work in that kind of medically excellent general practice.
===

As a new graduate, you are going to be much slower at first than someone who is more experienced as you will be checking the references for all kinds of things. So, you will likely, in a busier place, get behind and then need to stay late because your chart need to be (should be) finished before you go home for the day. So you might need to stay late to finish. Why? It will start all over again in the next day, and unless the next day is slow you will get further behind. Also, your co-workers may need to consult your charts the next day or later the same day to answer a question from the same client, not to mention memory is faulty and you might forget an important detail.

What is your attitude toward work and your profession? Do you strive every day to learn, to be better, to re-examine everything you did to learn to do something better next time? Can you really be excellent by only working 40 hours in order to have a good work/life balance. Do you enjoy what you do so much that it does not seem like work? Otherwise, why are you running for the door at quitting time.

You ARE going to make a mistake and cause harm or kill something because you are new. Unless you are very lucky or good it will happen. People make their own luck via preparation. Are you willing to examine in detail what went wrong, your part in it and learn from the failure no matter now painful?

Don't blow things off or minimize stuff because confronting the screwups makes you feel bad? Would you want the pilots on your flight to your vacation garden spot to act like that? Gee: "I did not realize that we had so many people on the plane and that the headwinds used so much fuel and run out before we get to the destination airport?" At least the pilots have the incentive to get in right otherwise THEY might die too. The airline industry examines EVERY crash in detail to learn how to avoid the problem the next time. You should do the same in your profession.

Here is another VERY important thing to realize: The last vet to see the pet said they think that X is the apparently unresolved problem. Do NOT accept X at face value. Why do you assume the last person was correct? Did you read the ENTIRE history BEFORE going in to see the pet? Why not? Are you going to take your own history or rely on some one else's interpretation? The former is the only correct course of action. Anything else is lazy and mediocre. Judgemental? Yes. What kind of vet (or MD) do you want to see your pet or family member.

Another thing: Get comfortable charging for your time, that exam fee pays you, the assistant, the receptionist, as do the test and medications you prescribe. Your time is valuable, you expect to get paid, so does your employer by charging the fees needed to pay everyone and keep the place open and in good repair. If you are not comfortable in our skills and feel bad about charging for your limited knowledge, too bad, get better, improve, learn and strive for excellence. Then you will feel good about charging for your time, you should. You also cannot take all day on a small number of cases, otherwise you are not generating the revenue needed to help pay for everything including your self.

Have a little sympathy for the business owner. Profit is not a dirty word. You have to make a profit on everything to provide the funds to pay for everything and everyone, to provide money for repair and new gadgets, raises, bonuses, computers, new paint jobs. The owner deserves a return on their hard work, risk taking and to compensate for the fact that they are likely personally guaranteeing every financial commitment the practice has.

You worry about your rental, car payment and student loans.
The boss worries about having enough money for rent, payroll, taxes, lease payments on computers, other equipment, paying the lab bill, insurances, utilities, internet, new computers, paying people care for the equipment, cleaning people, building maintenance which the landlord in a lease space almost never does. You think you have alot to deal with and you do. The boss has more, way more, you have no idea. So cut them some slack, the number of decisions and screwups that happen daily are maddening. The demands on money are relentless and the boss HAS to be concerned about this.

Ask yourself. Do you want to work in a day practice that basically does wellness, gives vaccines handles minor issues and turfs all the complex stuff (Personally this would be boring) to internal medicine, emergency, etc. . If so, then you are spared a lot of hard work since you won't have any cases to manage for the long term, no need to educate the client and explain complex diagnostic trees. Try to know what you want and find a place that matches. Many new grads change jobs after the first year because they are shocked by the first job and think the next jobs will be better and it might.

Finally: Be a throughout, excellent, cooperative, helpful vet that advocates for the pet. You will do the right thing and help the pet and therefore generate the needed revenue and then some. Money is not the motivation for what we do but a natural positive consequence of doing a medically excellent job.

As for the free T4 stuff, you can add on that test to the lab after without the owner coming back in at all. And an add on test isn't going to change the price regardless of if you do it immediately or later. Most of the feline senior panels don't include free T4... what if the total is normal or elevated, not grey zone? Then I've saved that client money. It isn't as straightforward as you like to make it. I'd also say 98-99% of my feline hyperthyroid cases have been diagnosed off total T4 alone, no free T4 needed.

This is again where you can communicate this with the client. Tell them that the vast majority of hyperthyroid cats can be diagnosed off a total t4 alone, however there are some that may need an additional test. Since costs are a concern, I'd like to start here and if your cat does need additional testing we'll address it when I call you with results. Most of the time, I'll save that client money on not immediately running a free t4.


Also, you must as a vet realize the practice's limitations of where you are working and as an office manager, you should be respectful of that. You might think cutting a GDV is simple, but I know every damn complication that can occur and that the staff I have, isn't trained to handle it. You might think that an "allergic reaction" just requires some steroids and benadryl but I know that dog can have respiratory compromise and go into DIC. If I tell you to punt a possible allergic reaction to ER because owner is reporting trouble breathing, do not question me like my office manager did and still tell them to come in. Here, we don't have an oxygen cage, I'm doing that patient a disservice by having it come to us and delaying appropriate monitoring and treatment. If you start telling vets how to practice medicine and what they should be doing when and where and how to do it, you'll lose them. And you'll have a hard time filling that position.

I don't mind explaining my reasons on cases, but don't question me then undermine me.
 
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I liked a lot of your points except this one. Yes, you CAN really be excellent by "only" working 40 hours in order to have a good work/life balance. And "only 40 hours" is an incredibly ridiculous thing to say. 40 hours is plenty (or should be). Burn out is a real thing. Doesn't matter how much you love your job, doing the same thing for 40+ hours a week is stressful (and vet med is even more stressful). This sentence makes it sound like anyone who wants to have a life outside of their job as a vet is "less than" and frankly that's bull****.

Besides you can still enjoy your job but want to leave when the clinic closes. Not sure how wanting to leave at closing time equates to hating your job.... maybe you just want to get home to your own pets, SO, kids, or other family members. There is nothing wrong with that. There's no hard and fast rule that you must work 50 hours to prove you love your job, and it is BS to suggest otherwise.
 
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I was all with you until I got to this point of your post, and as a GP I take offense to your characterization and tell you it isn't true at all. GPs do far more than "basically" what you said, and it IS hard work. Saying that GPs don't do a lot of hard work because they "turf all the complex stuff" to specialists is both wrong and insulting. I worked damn bloody hard yesterday, saw more than a few complex cases (with complex owners), and didn't refer anything. Sometimes I think specialists are the ones who are spared a lot of hard work because their clients are pre-selected to be only those who have a focused (if not identified) problem with owners who've already decided they are willing to pursue (and pay for) care. It's the GPs who are faced with the nebulous ADR patient (where the problematic body system can't even be determined yet) with clients who aren't fully forthcoming with the patient's history, or their own goals and limits (of time, patience, or money). Or the genetic nightmare bulldog who is arthritic, allergic, and infected, but with clients who want to do only "natural" things and need to be convinced to properly treat their dog. I welcome the wellness and vaccine appointments as a break from the stress and a chance for puppy kisses to brighten my day!
I think she was specifically saying "a day practice that does this" not that "all day practices do this" and specifying to know what you want when you're looking for a job. Exhibit A: I work in a GP that is an hour away from open ERs and specialty hospitals during day hours. After 5PM (we close at 6PM) we have an ER open... 45 minutes away. Promise my GP experience is not just shots, and that's a lot of the reason I picked my clinic.

You are presented with a 10 year old indoor cat that is eating well but losing weight and has not been to the vet in five years.. You get a history and say:
"I want to do blood test on your cat to check it internal organs". The client declines and wonders if the cat need to be dewormed.
You repeat your recommendation, the client declines and worries aloud about money.

What do you do now? Give up and documentation your recommendation and let it go?
Or do you say something like:

I'm concerned about the weight loss. There are several reasons we can be seeing weight loss with a good appetite, especially in a 10 year old cat. The first thing we need to rule out is an over active thyroid (also know as feline hyperthyroidism). Aside: remember the audience is the client not the resident and professors you needed to impress in vet school with your medical terminology virtuosity. The less educated the client to more likely you will lose them using big medical words.

Then you continue and say an over active metabolism can cause weight loss as we are seeing here, it can also lead to heart disease, high blood pressure, even detached retinas and blindness IF uncorrected. It also makes the cat very grumpy. The treatment for this is an inexpensive tablet given twice a day for life. But the only way to learn if this is what your cat has is to do the blood test. I know it is a lot of money (Aside: always say this if needed) but this is what your cat needs us to do. (Of course, you ARE going to include the Free T4 in the test right? Otherwise, you will annoy the client by making them come back in a couple of days for the separate Free T4 panel, when you learn the T4 is within normal limits but toward the high end of normal). This will cost them more money than if you did it in the first place. Think things through - be prepared.
Or I do my best not to tunnel on one of many possible diagnosis' for a losing weight hungry older cat, and get the baseline T4 with the blood panel but warn the owner that cats *can* be frustrating patients and sometimes we need to add on tests or perform more in general... but we can go very stepwise right now because I know nobody has lots of money just sitting around for fun. One of my last weight loss 9yo kitty patients had gnarly liver cancer, went icteric a couple days after we did her bloods.

Or if they didn't have the money to do the blood tests, I treat the treatable and their suspicions with dewormer, then get them an appt for a month from now to recheck weight and emphasize that if it's still going down, we need to submit the bloods at that time when they've had the month to save up. I've done this a lot when someone comes in wanting it to be an easily fixable problem and I'm pretty sure it's not... treat their suspicions, nicely say that I'm quite worried that it's not that and there's something else going on, and when their tact doesn't fix the problem they'll listen to you better.

There are lots of ways to work up a cat. ;P
 
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Here is another VERY important thing to realize: The last vet to see the pet said they think that X is the apparently unresolved problem. Do NOT accept X at face value. Why do you assume the last person was correct? Did you read the ENTIRE history BEFORE going in to see the pet? Why not? Are you going to take your own history or rely on some one else's interpretation? The former is the only correct course of action. Anything else is lazy and mediocre. Judgemental? Yes. What kind of vet (or MD) do you want to see your pet or family member.
I have some patients who have been coming to our clinic for 10+ years and fall into my lap. My older boss has near illegible handwriting and we have paper records. You're damn right I don't read the ENTIRE HISTORY every time. Because that would literally take an hour and...
You also cannot take all day on a small number of cases, otherwise you are not generating the revenue needed to help pay for everything including your self.
So calm your judging yo. Part of being in practice is time management and learning to decide when to focus on in long complicated histories is important.
As a new graduate, you are going to be much slower at first than someone who is more experienced as you will be checking the references for all kinds of things. So, you will likely, in a busier place, get behind and then need to stay late because your chart need to be (should be) finished before you go home for the day. So you might need to stay late to finish. Why? It will start all over again in the next day, and unless the next day is slow you will get further behind. Also, your co-workers may need to consult your charts the next day or later the same day to answer a question from the same client, not to mention memory is faulty and you might forget an important detail.
Maybe be prepared when you hire a new graduate and don't overload them? I mean, I stayed late for a long time after I started because I was constantly looking up things. Hell, I still do it regularly. But it shouldn't be EXPECTED and you shouldn't admonish someone for hoping to get home to their family/hobbies/etc on time.
What is your attitude toward work and your profession? Do you strive every day to learn, to be better, to re-examine everything you did to learn to do something better next time? Can you really be excellent by only working 40 hours in order to have a good work/life balance. Do you enjoy what you do so much that it does not seem like work? Otherwise, why are you running for the door at quitting time.
This is work. Work we aren't paid nearly enough for for the amount of time and money we spend getting into the profession. High stress, high emotion work where we're constantly treating the untreatable with a shoestring budget and having to be doctors, customer service agents, technicians, and everything in between.

And then people turn around and shame us for daring to want time for ourselves. Yeah, screw that. And if you espouse that bull**** I'm glad I don't work for you.
 
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I think she was specifically saying "a day practice that does this" not that "all day practices do this" and specifying to know what you want when you're looking for a job. Exhibit A: I work in a GP that is an hour away from open ERs and specialty hospitals during day hours. After 5PM (we close at 6PM) we have an ER open... 45 minutes away. Promise my GP experience is not just shots, and that's a lot of the reason I picked my clinic.


Or I do my best not to tunnel on one of many possible diagnosis' for a losing weight hungry older cat, and get the baseline T4 with the blood panel but warn the owner that cats *can* be frustrating patients and sometimes we need to add on tests or perform more in general... but we can go very stepwise right now because I know nobody has lots of money just sitting around for fun. One of my last weight loss 9yo kitty patients had gnarly liver cancer, went icteric a couple days after we did her bloods.

Or if they didn't have the money to do the blood tests, I treat the treatable and their suspicions with dewormer, then get them an appt for a month from now to recheck weight and emphasize that if it's still going down, we need to submit the bloods at that time when they've had the month to save up. I've done this a lot when someone comes in wanting it to be an easily fixable problem and I'm pretty sure it's not... treat their suspicions, nicely say that I'm quite worried that it's not that and there's something else going on, and when their tact doesn't fix the problem they'll listen to you better.

There are lots of ways to work up a cat. ;P

Yeah our last suspect renal failure cat, had minimal renal elevation but had gnarly looking suspect lymphoma of the GI tract, liver and spleen. We just submitted splenic aspirates.

Might want to be sure the weight loss, hungry cat isn't diabetic either.

Definitely better to start with broad BW and add things on based on that. Or for really cost concerned, try a treatment and tell them if it isn't working we need to do this test because blah blah blah and give them a cost head's up so they can be prepared.
 
I think she was specifically saying "a day practice that does this" not that "all day practices do this" and specifying to know what you want when you're looking for a job.
I didn't know such places exist. None of the vets I know (or the hundred or so places I've worked doing relief) has been like that.

But I agree you should know what you want when you're looking for a job -- if you can. It's hard shopping for something you've never had before; you don't always know what questions to ask for what flags to look for.
 
What is your attitude toward work and your profession? Do you strive every day to learn, to be better, to re-examine everything you did to learn to do something better next time? Can you really be excellent by only working 40 hours in order to have a good work/life balance. Do you enjoy what you do so much that it does not seem like work? Otherwise, why are you running for the door at quitting time.

Actually, I believe you can. Because when you're working 60+ hour weeks or otherwise neglecting work/life balance, there comes a time when you are not at your best. The relationship between time and productivity is not linear. I love my work, but my work is not my life - and I believe that ideology is ultimately detrimental to most people when they try to intertwine the two too tightly. I leave at quitting time so I can have my life outside of my job - that life keeps me sane, happy, and ultimately more productive during the times I am actually at work.

Now of course, this doesn't mean shirking your duties to make it to happy hour every Friday. You are very correct about the best clinicians wanting to be lifelong learners. However, it is a slippery slope when we start judging people's fitness to be clinicians on how much of their lives and time they sacrifice. The two are indeed related up until a point, but there is absolutely a threshold

You ARE going to make a mistake and cause harm or kill something because you are new. Unless you are very lucky or good it will happen. People make their own luck via preparation. Are you willing to examine in detail what went wrong, your part in it and learn from the failure no matter now painful?

Don't blow things off or minimize stuff because confronting the screwups makes you feel bad? Would you want the pilots on your flight to your vacation garden spot to act like that? Gee: "I did not realize that we had so many people on the plane and that the headwinds used so much fuel and run out before we get to the destination airport?" At least the pilots have the incentive to get in right otherwise THEY might die too. The airline industry examines EVERY crash in detail to learn how to avoid the problem the next time. You should do the same in your profession.

This is excellent advice - and not just for new graduates, but for EVERY veterinarian no matter how long you have been in the field. Being able to accept failure and mistakes and 1) learn from them, and 2) move past them is essential. **** happens, and it will happen to everyone. A lot of veterinary students are absolutely petrified of failure because many of them are Type A personalities who have never failed at anything in their lives - I don't say this to be judgemental or cruel, I'm saying it because it's true and I myself had the same fears when I was a student. Being accepting of failure and, instead of dwelling on it or hiding from it, taking active steps to correct said failure is what makes a truly honest and introspective clinician.
 
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Actually, I believe you can. Because when you're working 60+ hour weeks or otherwise neglecting work/life balance, there comes a time when you are not at your best. The relationship between time and productivity is not linear.
Absolutely! People can't be excellent if they ignore their health -- and that includes mental health. And, as you said, putting in more hours does not always make one more productive in quality, let alone quantity. There's a lot of gray between running out the door after 8 hours on the nose and working oneself to death, but more time does not always equal more learning (or more improvement).
 
Reminds me of this

047234c63112375e70b819c1f2b23345.jpg
 
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Honestly, that concept is one of the biggest problems in the industry today. Taking time for yourself is necessary to your wellbeing and allows you to come to work refreshed.

Promoting working more than 40 hrs like this is frankly one of the reasons we deal with burnout and suicide to a high degree.
 
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Work intensity also needs to be considered, especially in practice. Those 40 hours may "only" be 40 hours, but often they are absolutely jam-packed. I've had some 8 hour days that I am absolutely wiped from afterwards, and I've had some 10 hour days where I've been almost bored.

A 50-60 hour week doing something slower or something requiring less brainpower might actually be easier in some ways than 40 hours in a clinic.
 
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Work intensity also needs to be considered, especially in practice. Those 40 hours may "only" be 40 hours, but often they are absolutely jam-packed. I've had some 8 hour days that I am absolutely wiped from afterwards, and I've had some 10 hour days where I've been almost bored.

A 50-60 hour week doing something slower or something requiring less brainpower might actually be easier in some ways than 40 hours in a clinic.
Except for what you're missing in those extra 2 or 3 hours a day that you're at work.......time to spend with friends and family, time to do things you enjoy/hobbies, time to improve your physical health (sleeping, cooking proper meals, exercising, etc).
 
Except for what you're missing in those extra 2 or 3 hours a day that you're at work.......time to spend with friends and family, time to do things you enjoy/hobbies, time to improve your physical health (sleeping, cooking proper meals, exercising, etc).

This is absolutely true as well - it is a combination of factors to be sure.
 
Work intensity also needs to be considered, especially in practice. Those 40 hours may "only" be 40 hours, but often they are absolutely jam-packed. I've had some 8 hour days that I am absolutely wiped from afterwards, and I've had some 10 hour days where I've been almost bored.

A 50-60 hour week doing something slower or something requiring less brainpower might actually be easier in some ways than 40 hours in a clinic.

There are definitely times where I think to my overnight shifts in the bakery. Scooping dough, placing things on baking sheets, measuring out ingredients, etc. So simple, so mind-numbingly simple. Sometimes, it is just nice to be able to do almost "mindless" work. Whereas (most days) we are full brain power, full steam ahead, all day, non-stop. It gets draining at the end of the week.
 
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Work intensity also needs to be considered, especially in practice. Those 40 hours may "only" be 40 hours, but often they are absolutely jam-packed. I've had some 8 hour days that I am absolutely wiped from afterwards, and I've had some 10 hour days where I've been almost bored.

A 50-60 hour week doing something slower or something requiring less brainpower might actually be easier in some ways than 40 hours in a clinic.

Totally this. I'm scheduled to work a little under 40hrs per week, but most days it is so freaking hectic that I feel like I'm playing the last level of Diner Dash day in and day out. I have to be 120% focused with my mind on 3-4 different things at all times. All the while, every 20-30 minutes I need to walk into a new room with a refreshing smile on my face and have the client in the room feel as though their pet is the only thing that matters to me at that moment. It's beyond exhausting. I've worked a number of different jobs in different settings, but none have come close to how intense most of my days are as a veterinarian.

If anyone asks me to work more hours, I would say no, and if they insist, I would quit. There's only so much of this that I can take. I draw a hard line at my 4 shifts per week. I'll give it my all for those shifts, but I can't give any more.

I do some relief gigs and volunteer at spay/neuter clinics on top of my regular job because even though it's more vet med, it's refreshing to be out of that insane environment that is my day job. You can't pay me enough to take any more of that than I already do. So yeah, for me, it really isn't just about the number of hours that matters.
 
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The post discussing what new grads are looking for in employers has me thinking... what about the opposite? What are employers looking for in me as a future DVM graduate?

Do my grades in vet school matter to a new employer? Club involvement? Summer jobs/experiences? Surgical skills?

What can/should I be spending my time and energy on right now in order to make myself a competitive, standout applicant? I’m looking for more DVM job specific things rather than more generic “communication, write a good cover letter” type stuff.

I graduated 2015 and have worked at two clinics now. Both asked me about my surgical experiences, neither asked about grades, clubs or summer involvement.

I think attitude is huge. I've been repeatedly complimented on having a positive attitude and working well with the staff at both places. If you're a sourpuss, you aren't pleasant to work alongside especially when the days are tough. I've had coworkers who liked to complain and just exuded stress and that wears on you. You can learn medicine and surgery - those skills will evolve with time - but your personality isn't something you can change completely. Communication skills is a close relative to attitude/personality - both with clients and with coworkers/staff.
 
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I was all with you until I got to this point of your post, and as a GP I take offense to your characterization and tell you it isn't true at all. GPs do far more than "basically" what you said, and it IS hard work. Saying that GPs don't do a lot of hard work because they "turf all the complex stuff" to specialists is both wrong and insulting. I worked damn bloody hard yesterday, saw more than a few complex cases (with complex owners), and didn't refer anything. Sometimes I think specialists are the ones who are spared a lot of hard work because their clients are pre-selected to be only those who have a focused (if not identified) problem with owners who've already decided they are willing to pursue (and pay for) care. It's the GPs who are faced with the nebulous ADR patient (where the problematic body system can't even be determined yet) with clients who aren't fully forthcoming with the patient's history, or their own goals and limits (of time, patience, or money). Or the genetic nightmare bulldog who is arthritic, allergic, and infected, but with clients who want to do only "natural" things and need to be convinced to properly treat their dog. I welcome the wellness and vaccine appointments as a break from the stress and a chance for puppy kisses to brighten my day!
Actually, I was not maligning the GPs who actually work stuff up - we do so too. There are day practices that ARE as I said, the send the hospitalizations to the ER or specialists and do not really work up that much. I was provoking that thought to consider which one do you want to work at?
 
I liked a lot of your points except this one. Yes, you CAN really be excellent by "only" working 40 hours in order to have a good work/life balance. And "only 40 hours" is an incredibly ridiculous thing to say. 40 hours is plenty (or should be). Burn out is a real thing. Doesn't matter how much you love your job, doing the same thing for 40+ hours a week is stressful (and vet med is even more stressful). This sentence makes it sound like anyone who wants to have a life outside of their job as a vet is "less than" and frankly that's bull****.
Every new grad we have seen is for 6-9 months slow, unsure, need to gain client interaction skills, no not make their base in revenue generation and in many ways want their hand held but do not want to be an intern and get paid as an intern and complain that because they are slow they need to stay late and finish their records, make sure the final treatments get done by someone. You need to put the time in somewhere to get better and gain skill in many areas and often IMHO as someone who has worked in the computer field (20 years) and the vet field for 20 years now, the really good put have put in A LOT of time in the beginning. Now those experienced people can run ring around the newbies and make it look easy, they worked hard especially in the beginning.
 
Actually, I was not maligning the GPs who actually work stuff up - we do so too. There are day practices that ARE as I said, the send the hospitalizations to the ER or specialists and do not really work up that much. I was provoking that thought to consider which one do you want to work at?

I want to work in a practice where I'm not bullied into hospitalizing things overnight without overnight care present. Where I'm not bullied for referring a ****ing emergency to *gasp* an emergency clinic. Where I'm not bullied for referring something to a specialist when it needs a ****ing specialist. I can tell by your posts, your vets are likely admonished for sending anything anywhere but your clinic. Very glad I don't work for you.

A GP should feel supported in their decision to refer if necessary, not degraded. After all, it is their $350,000 license and their entire livelihood at stake if something goes wrong. As a practice manager, you have no ****ing clue how that feels.
 
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Work intensity also needs to be considered, especially in practice. Those 40 hours may "only" be 40 hours, but often they are absolutely jam-packed. I've had some 8 hour days that I am absolutely wiped from afterwards, and I've had some 10 hour days where I've been almost bored.

A 50-60 hour week doing something slower or something requiring less brainpower might actually be easier in some ways than 40 hours in a clinic.
Actually, we do 30 minute appointments, spend a lot of time on client education, try to get client to work things up to the benefit of their pets. We start with the medicine and if we do a good job the money and clients will follow. We do not want to have people working 45-50-60 hours per week, therein does lie burnout. I was merely making the point that early on, more time will stand one in good stead for later in the career. I suggest the following book to all: Outliers. I especially like the chapter on 10,000 hours and the Cultural Theory of Plane Crashes.
 
I want to work in a practice where I'm not bullied into hospitalizing things overnight without overnight care present. Where I'm not bullied for referring a ****ing emergency to *gasp* an emergency clinic. Where I'm not bullied for referring something to a specialist when it needs a ****ing specialist. I can tell by your posts, your vets are likely admonished for sending anything anywhere but your clinic. Very glad I don't work for you.

A GP should feel supported in their decision to refer if necessary, not degraded. After all, it is their $350,000 license and their entire livelihood at stake if something goes wrong. As a practice manager, you have no ****ing clue how that feels.
No one bullies the vets here, that is unethical by regulation and otherwise. Anything that needs to have the boarded surgeon gets one, we have every specialty in our area 30-40 minute drive and refer to as needed and do so when needed and the option is offered to the clients.

My point was that should a vet when confronted for the first time (new grads) with anything the least bit unfamiliar punt to the ER or specialty practice? Especially, when the medical director is ALWAYS available via phone and is ALWAYS helpful to any vet that asks for help.

Consider the following, really happened, a lethargic pup, low body temp comes in near closing time (it was outside in the cold), the ER/overnight facility is 45 minutes away. We have no one overnight and should not and would not keep the puppy it should go to the ER. Would you be annoyed with the new grad who is out 4-5 months that TURFS it to the ER without doing anything or calling the medical director?

Our Medical Director and owner expect that at the very least some supportive is given BEFORE sending them to the ER. IV cath, fluids started, maybe some other things as indicated. Because the ER is going to do the same things as well and the pup would benefit from the fluids and perhaps other meds by the time it gets to the ER.
 
Honestly, that concept is one of the biggest problems in the industry today. Taking time for yourself is necessary to your wellbeing and allows you to come to work refreshed.

Promoting working more than 40 hrs like this is frankly one of the reasons we deal with burnout and suicide to a high degree.
We actually schedule vets for 40 hours, 30 minute (or more) appointments we are not fully booked some days (most days). People get behind and then they need to stay late - a condition of new grads in many case. We actually want and try to help new vets gain skills, learn things, etc - many are not very receptive.
 
Awesome replies y’all, thanks for the insight. I had a little bit of management experience before vet school, and agree that I’d take the guy who has a good attitude and work ethic over the guy who has all the technical knowledge. Guess I should have known that would apply here, but hard to see that when I’m so bogged down in learning all the technical stuff right now. Also glad that GPA and clubs don’t really matter. Still focusing on grades to help with scholarship money and just because it helps motivate me to learn the material, but it does take some pressure off knowing it doesn’t have a huge impact on future job prospects.

Let me switch gears a bit and ask, assuming I had those people skills/attitude attributes your looking for: What would you focus your time on if you were back in vet school? What skills do you wish you’d honed while here that would have helped you both get the job and then do it well your first week in practice?

Looks like dentals are one big thing I hadn’t thought about. Same with acupuncture (just had our first brief exposure to that in lecture this week). Our school is offering optional certification courses in laser therapy and basic wildlife restraint/rehab coming up. Are those kinds of things better resume boosters and helpful skills to have?
Dentistry is good. Vet schools generally teach you how to work in a referral clinic because their hospitals mostly function as such. Basic GP stuff mostly does not get done: yeasty ears, diarrhea dogs, itchy dogs and cats, blood in the urine cats, vaccine protocols, extolling the benefits of flea and tick meds, knowing to deworm puppies (really), all the basic stuff like this you will deal with daily. Some need to do TX GI panesl, Not so much the Cushing, addisons. Foreign bodies. FIP cats,
 
Consider the following, really happened, a lethargic pup, low body temp comes in near closing time (it was outside in the cold), the ER/overnight facility is 45 minutes away. We have no one overnight and should not and would not keep the puppy it should go to the ER. Would you be annoyed with the new grad who is out 4-5 months that TURFS it to the ER without doing anything or calling the medical director?

If the puppy is on my doorstep, yes, I would stabilize as much as possible. However, if that dog isn't stabilizing, I don't want to eff around too much as the ER likely has better supplies/toys for assisting this pup. So fluids, heat, maybe a few tests and off it goes as soon as those things are done, likely with some provided heat support. Stabilize as much as possible, then transfer. Also, I'd be honest and up-front with the client, if you have spent an hour trying to stabilize a cold puppy and it isn't responding, prognosis isn't good and puppy could die during transfer. A lot of my stabilization is doing as much as I can as quickly as I can and warning owners that things can go south fast, but I have done what I am able and now it is up to the dog to survive the transfer and then the ER to step in with continued supportive care. I also warn them they can spend a bunch of money and still end up with a deceased pet. I do give a heads up to costs of going to an ER. The last thing I want to do is transfer to ER for the ER vet to just euthanize. If the client can't afford ER, time to be very realistic about costs, expectations and if euthanasia is may be the best choice (may not have applied to the case above, but does apply to many others).



If this is someone who called in, then I would likely send them straight to ER. Why? It ends up costing more $$ going between clinics than it does to stick at one. Often times things get repeated at the ER, especially with last minute emergencies before closing because the ER can't contact you for information. I contact the ER, speak with a clinician, tell them results of testing and I send every single emergency patient with any radiographs or blood work we did when I send them to ER. Guess how many times we get a call from ER asking for blood work? Just above every single time. Pet owner's aren't thinking straight during an emergency and often times they misplace/forget/confuse things. So, if we are closed, the ER can't reach us, owner "forgets" about the blood work we sent them with... that test is being repeated. Depending on the ER they may or may not continue to use our bag of fluids, thus costing the owner double for a bag of fluids. Sometimes they will place their own IV catheter too, just depending on the ER. So, really, in cases where an emergency is going to present and we are called beforehand, I try to get them to go straight to the ER. It does tend to save them money in the long-term and it saves the animal from being shuffled around.
 
Dentistry is good. Vet schools generally teach you how to work in a referral clinic because their hospitals mostly function as such. Basic GP stuff mostly does not get done: yeasty ears, diarrhea dogs, itchy dogs and cats, blood in the urine cats, vaccine protocols, extolling the benefits of flea and tick meds, knowing to deworm puppies (really), all the basic stuff like this you will deal with daily. Some need to do TX GI panesl, Not so much the Cushing, addisons. Foreign bodies. FIP cats,

I wouldn't ignore the Cushing's... it is like Cushing's candy around here in the GP clinic I am at. I think have at least 15 patients on Trilostane that regularly do monitoring. Don't throw it out the window.

And, yes, Addison's is "rare" but I have had 4 in under two years... don't forget about it.. you could end up euthanizing something you think is in severe renal failure that actually is Addisonian and will do well. Oh and one of these 4 Addison's cases I had one was an atypical Addisonian.

Weird **** happens in GP too. Remember anything that gets punted to the specialist typically steps its paws into the GP clinic first. So we sill have to keep those "rare" things within our thought processes.
 
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If the puppy is on my doorstep, yes, I would stabilize as much as possible. However, if that dog isn't stabilizing, I don't want to eff around too much as the ER likely has better supplies/toys for assisting this pup. So fluids, heat, maybe a few tests and off it goes as soon as those things are done, likely with some provided heat support. Stabilize as much as possible, then transfer. Also, I'd be honest and up-front with the client, if you have spent an hour trying to stabilize a cold puppy and it isn't responding, prognosis isn't good and puppy could die during transfer. A lot of my stabilization is doing as much as I can as quickly as I can and warning owners that things can go south fast, but I have done what I am able and now it is up to the dog to survive the transfer and then the ER to step in with continued supportive care. I also warn them they can spend a bunch of money and still end up with a deceased pet. I do give a heads up to costs of going to an ER. The last thing I want to do is transfer to ER for the ER vet to just euthanize. If the client can't afford ER, time to be very realistic about costs, expectations and if euthanasia is may be the best choice (may not have applied to the case above, but does apply to many others).



If this is someone who called in, then I would likely send them straight to ER. Why? It ends up costing more $$ going between clinics than it does to stick at one. Often times things get repeated at the ER, especially with last minute emergencies before closing because the ER can't contact you for information. I contact the ER, speak with a clinician, tell them results of testing and I send every single emergency patient with any radiographs or blood work we did when I send them to ER. Guess how many times we get a call from ER asking for blood work? Just above every single time. Pet owner's aren't thinking straight during an emergency and often times they misplace/forget/confuse things. So, if we are closed, the ER can't reach us, owner "forgets" about the blood work we sent them with... that test is being repeated. Depending on the ER they may or may not continue to use our bag of fluids, thus costing the owner double for a bag of fluids. Sometimes they will place their own IV catheter too, just depending on the ER. So, really, in cases where an emergency is going to present and we are called beforehand, I try to get them to go straight to the ER. It does tend to save them money in the long-term and it saves the animal from being shuffled around.
Basically agree with all you said: As I recall, the clients came home from work found the puppy, showed up, did not really want the ER (expensive) and maybe we can help it by doing a few things and save them some money. At the same time, we agree that it pup is not responding, the the ER is the place to go. In this case, some warming, fluids and food is what was needed as well as a deworming.
Also, here once they are at the ER (24/7), they stay and do not come back in the AM (unless the client insists).
 
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