WCUCOM v. ACOM

[deleted896822]

High staff turnover is true. I don't know if that is a positive however. Usually high turnover points to a core group holding power who others find intolerable to work with. In other words, high turnover is usually due to someone bad in a position of power, rather than a bad group being removed.

I know there’s a new dean; I don’t think much else of the administration changed. I know there’s some new professors. Maybe a current student can chime in to confirm.


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[DrStephenStrange]

...As far as DO schools go WCUCOM isn't the best but its not the worst...

If WCU is not the worst DO school than which school is?
- Highest attrition rate I've seen. 10% every year.
- Abysmal first time COMLEX pass rate. 84%
- 92% placement rate in 2018. Historically the lowest I've ever seen.
- You even mentioned that you have to teach yourself most of the stuff for boards.

Even LUCOM is doing better than WCU.
That's why I recommended ACOM OP. Although, I didn't like all the negative comments from before, but WCU along with LMU are two schools I wouldn't recommend to anyone.

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[deleted936470]

Can anyone speak to the cheating scandal that the staff turned a blind eye to? Obviously at WCUCOM.

 

[deleted896822]

Can anyone speak to the cheating scandal that the staff turned a blind eye to?

How much could this type of activity account for lower boards/attrition?


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[Epilepsy365]

How much could this type of activity account for lower boards/attrition?


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You are best served to get on your knees on a weekly basis and beg for IIs to both campuses of LSU.

I actually know the people from there very well. You’re competitive to their program or at least a shoo-in for next yr admission if you buff up your MCAT a little bit.

 

[WorldChanger36]

I know there’s a new dean; I don’t think much else of the administration changed. I know there’s some new professors. Maybe a current student can chime in to confirm.


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Actually a ton of the admin has changed multiple people left and it is for the better because they were useless.

 

[WorldChanger36]

If WCU is not the worst DO school than which school is?
- Highest attrition rate I've seen. 10% every year.
- Abysmal first time COMLEX pass rate. 84%
- 92% placement rate in 2018. Historically the lowest I've ever seen.
- You even mentioned that you have to teach yourself most of the stuff for boards.

Even LUCOM is doing better than WCU.
That's why I recommended ACOM OP. Although, I didn't like all the negative comments from before, but WCU along with LMU are two schools I wouldn't recommend to anyone.

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Yes if all you care about is numbers sure Carey is the worst medical school in the US.
-Yeah a 10% attrition rate is bad but it may have changed and most likely has improved. Still one of the most terrifying things about the school is that they will fail you.
- Carey has consistently been below the COMLEX averages and I doubt that will change any time soon. Our year was better than 84% though so again it varies from year to year. Why does this matter if you really have to teach yourself?
- The 92% placement rate was a real low point for the school and it happened to a really great class too. But you have to keep in mind that 8% not placed was 6 people with some hard stuff to work around ( multiple board failures, class failures, personality failures...ect.) and in the end only 2 didn't make it. What was also really bad that year was the match rate of 42%... Yes with both the AOA and ACGME match less than half the class matched into a program. Now post soap and scramble that went up to 92% so 6 had to take either a 5th year or find something else to do...scary yes but it is working itself out.
- For level 1 I did UFAP just like every one else I just did it longer and mostly that was enough for both classes and my boards.

Carey is there so you have a chance at a medical degree. For many it is a 2nd or 3rd chance. They take people that never had a shot any place else outside of the Carrib and many of those people are doing very well. Some thing to keep in mind, if you are already doing well you will most likely do well at any school.


Believe me once you graduate and look back and see all the med students around you, you see how little it matters.

 

[DO2015CA]

Yes if all you care about is numbers sure Carey is the worst medical school in the US.
-Yeah a 10% attrition rate is bad but it may have changed and most likely has improved. Still one of the most terrifying things about the school is that they will fail you.
- Carey has consistently been below the COMLEX averages and I doubt that will change any time soon. Our year was better than 84% though so again it varies from year to year. Why does this matter if you really have to teach yourself?
- The 92% placement rate was a real low point for the school and it happened to a really great class too. But you have to keep in mind that 8% not placed was 6 people with some hard stuff to work around ( multiple board failures, class failures, personality failures...ect.) and in the end only 2 didn't make it. What was also really bad that year was the match rate of 42%... Yes with both the AOA and ACGME match less than half the class matched into a program. Now post soap and scramble that went up to 92% so 6 had to take either a 5th year or find something else to do...scary yes but it is working itself out.
- For level 1 I did UFAP just like every one else I just did it longer and mostly that was enough for both classes and my boards.

Carey is there so you have a chance at a medical degree. For many it is a 2nd or 3rd chance. They take people that never had a shot any place else outside of the Carrib and many of those people are doing very well. Some thing to keep in mind, if you are already doing well you will most likely do well at any school.


Believe me once you graduate and look back and see all the med students around you, you see how little it matters.

A lot of those 58% didn’t match went into 1 year internships. How did they do afterwards? Impossible to know because the schools no longer tracks it but... How about your class? How are those people this year with interviews in specialties they actually want to practice in?

ACOM has its own fair share of problems. Mainly the mandatory attendance with an abysmal 1st and 2nd year curriculum... but year 3 and 4 are actually good for DO schools. They are too rigid and paternalistic in a bad way. They also repeat ~9% of the lowest achieving students after the 1st semester. They had ~80% match rate with 60% primary care specialties. But 80%>>42%. They also increased their class size despite not adding any infrastructure in the education model.

Im not defending ACOM and personally wouldn’t recommend anyone to apply there but with these 2 options I would chose ACOM in a heartbeat. Especially since WCU is opening a branch campus without even assuring their main campus was up to par

 

[boolin_1]

Care to elaborate?


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this school is booty as hell. I hate it and wish I went elsewhere

 

[WorldChanger36]

A lot of those 58% didn’t match went into 1 year internships. How did they do afterwards? Impossible to know because the schools no longer tracks it but... How about your class? How are those people this year with interviews in specialties they actually want to practice in?

ACOM has its own fair share of problems. Mainly the mandatory attendance with an abysmal 1st and 2nd year curriculum... but year 3 and 4 are actually good for DO schools. They are too rigid and paternalistic in a bad way. They also repeat ~9% of the lowest achieving students after the 1st semester. They had ~80% match rate with 60% primary care specialties. But 80%>>42%. They also increased their class size despite not adding any infrastructure in the education model.

Im not defending ACOM and personally wouldn’t recommend anyone to apply there but with these 2 options I would chose ACOM in a heartbeat. Especially since WCU is opening a branch campus without even assuring their main campus was up to par

A few did do TRI and other prelims, most of them are doing well either got into their field or did something different. My class mostly matched, we had 100% placement rate. I have no idea about the current class.

WCUCOM doesn't have a branch campus they applied for class size extension, which should be granted here soon. They did debate a branch campus but it wasn't fully supported so they dropped it.

 

[hallowmann]

- The 92% placement rate was a real low point for the school and it happened to a really great class too. But you have to keep in mind that 8% not placed was 6 people with some hard stuff to work around ( multiple board failures, class failures, personality failures...ect.) and in the end only 2 didn't make it. What was also really bad that year was the match rate of 42%... Yes with both the AOA and ACGME match less than half the class matched into a program. Now post soap and scramble that went up to 92% so 6 had to take either a 5th year or find something else to do...scary yes but it is working itself out.

What in the what??? That's like 1/2 as much as the average DO match rate. What is going on? 50% scrambled or SOAPed in 2018. That's not just bad, that's on the level of quite literally numbers for Carib schools. They need a thorough overhaul of the curriculum, advising, and application planning if that's what happened. That doesn't just happen by chance.

I met a class of 2017 and 2018 WCUCOM student back in med school, and they also had policies that severely limited interviews. I wonder if people were going on <8 interviews or something.

A few did do TRI and other prelims, most of them are doing well either got into their field or did something different. My class mostly matched, we had 100% placement rate. I have no idea about the current class...

Out of curiosity, what was the match rate for your class?

 

[WorldChanger36]

What in the what??? That's like 1/2 as much as the average DO match rate. What is going on? 50% scrambled or SOAPed in 2018. That's not just bad, that's on the level of quite literally numbers for Carib schools. They need a thorough overhaul of the curriculum, advising, and application planning if that's what happened. That doesn't just happen by chance.

I met a class of 2017 and 2018 WCUCOM student back in med school, and they also had policies that severely limited interviews. I wonder if people were going on <8 interviews or something.



Out of curiosity, what was the match rate for your class?

It is true they did have that policy but it wasn't fully enforced and my class took advantage allowing us to go on multiple interviews. My classes match rate was 87 to 88%, the rest soaped or scrambled into something. Our class was different, most wanted family or IM from day one, very few wanted things that were hyper competitive. Just like the last class we got horrible advising about everything from COMLEX to applications we for the most part ignored it.

 

[Kardio]

Especially for you 5 years from now, going DO will be much more hazardous.

Let me put it this way, the places I will probably match as an average senior DO student in a non primary care specialty are worse than my alumni from a couple years ago. But by the time you get here, the programs average students are getting into now. might barely be taking any DO's, if at all.

Let me give you some truths from my in house numbers. Four yrs ago, alumni of my board scores matched to Neurology in Cleveland Clinic and UC Irvine. Now I have zero shots at those programs.

I’m aiming for internal medicine but still afraid I won’t match when I go through it in a few yrs lol

I understand that this graph doesn't fully account for the quality of match, but this trend doesn't indicate to me that programs are less likely to take DO grads in the future.

Of course the landscape is likely to change in a post-merger world. It looks to me like the only group who will be negatively effected are the weaker DO grads. I'd be happy to hear data, anecdotes or theories on why ya'll feel it will be more challenging for DO grads to land spots at comeptitive programs in the future.

 

[Kardio]

There’s a third option: improve your application and reapply to MDs

You should def shoot for MD schools min 2 cycles before opting for the newer version of Caribbean schools disguised as DO schools unless you’re fine with FM, Peds, and community IM programs.

Source: Special Reports, click "2009-10 to 2018-19 Osteopathic Medical School Attrition Summary"

I applied 1 cycle, MD and DO combined, and was fine with going DO from the start because I was never interested in specialties with very low DO presence.

All I see is a near-constant attrition rate, increasing match rates, and physician unemployment at <1% (even amid several years of expanding DO enrollment). If you are OK closing some doors (plastics, derm, neurosurgery, etc.), I don't see why it's worth waiting multiple cycles.

 

[FutureDoctor5000]

Okay so i MUST clarify about the 10% attrition rate that people are talking about! Attrition(people get kicked out due to some reason and can't get their degree) at WCUCOM is less than 10% for 4 years not 10% per year. My class has lost like 4-5 people due to attrition in 2 years, some are repeating OMS1 but I would say overall 4 year attrition is 10% overall not yearly, this is probably on par with ACOM or LUCOM or any other DO school. WCUCOM is in a better location than ACOM, it has support of the state and it is helping to start more residencies in the state, something that I don't know if ACOM is doing that in Alabama. Hattiesburg> Dothan. Also You can match Derm from here multiple ppl did it at Carey over the years, we had Optho and Neurosurgery and Ortho, theres tons of DO Ortho programs so it can be done if you want.

 

[deleted896822]

Okay so i MUST clarify about the 10% attrition rate that people are talking about! Attrition(people get kicked out due to some reason and can't get their degree) at WCUCOM is less than 10% for 4 years not 10% per year. My class has lost like 4-5 people due to attrition in 2 years, some are repeating OMS1 but I would say overall 4 year attrition is 10% overall not yearly, this is probably on par with ACOM or LUCOM or any other DO school. WCUCOM is in a better location than ACOM, it has support of the state and it is helping to start more residencies in the state, something that I don't know if ACOM is doing that in Alabama. Hattiesburg> Dothan. Also You can match Derm from here multiple ppl did it at Carey over the years, we had Optho and Neurosurgery and Ortho, theres tons of DO Ortho programs so it can be done if you want.

Like I said; pretty dead set on EM


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[FutureDoctor5000]

Like I said; pretty dead set on EM


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Well than Honestly WCUCOM> ACOM, they are starting one more EM program in the state and they already have one in Hattiesburg which is a home program for us where you can do 3rd year, UMMC the state MD school is very DO friendly and Carey friendly and takes a minimum of 2 of our students in to their EM program, WCUCOM is more established and has more alumni which is what matters at the end of the day anyway, as far as attrition, if you were gonna fail at Carey you will def fail at ACOM too so just something to think about.

 

[deleted936470]

Okay so i MUST clarify about the 10% attrition rate that people are talking about! Attrition(people get kicked out due to some reason and can't get their degree) at WCUCOM is less than 10% for 4 years not 10% per year. My class has lost like 4-5 people due to attrition in 2 years, some are repeating OMS1 but I would say overall 4 year attrition is 10% overall not yearly, this is probably on par with ACOM or LUCOM or any other DO school. WCUCOM is in a better location than ACOM, it has support of the state and it is helping to start more residencies in the state, something that I don't know if ACOM is doing that in Alabama. Hattiesburg> Dothan. Also You can match Derm from here multiple ppl did it at Carey over the years, we had Optho and Neurosurgery and Ortho, theres tons of DO Ortho programs so it can be done if you want.

No. Failure at WCUCOM is much more likely than failure at ACOM.


OP, I recommend you do more research. When looking at previous threads, and quoting @WorldChanger36: "admins, faculty and deans have all been noted lying to applicants to make the school seem better than it is in regards to things like research, board reviews, curriculum and match rates. The med students apart of the interview crews are the most pro-carey and happiest students. Also it is expected that schools will put their best foot forward and cover up problems. It is wisest to COMPLETELY ignore anything that you learn about a school from interviews that can not be verified over multiple years or from multiple trusted sources.

2) Carey also has a reputation of horrible recruiting methods and when the students don't turn out to be what they wanted they will deliberately try to fail them out. This was going on last year so I have no doubt it is still going on. We still have a very high attrition rate.

3) The biggest problem Carey has going forward is match rates... they are abysmal. The combined match before any post match was under 50%. Many people had to find programs in the SOAP and scramble and a few could not find placement at all. This is a very big deal. I can tell you my class is having problems with interviews, many are just not getting many, those that are doing ok are finding they are all being interviewed by the exact same programs. It is likely that our match rates will be even worse than last year and the rates will continue to decline. It is common that students are pressured to go into fields they don't want when they can not match and last year many did.

4) Carey doesn't specialize in anything, you get a general osteopathic medical education delivered to you in your 1st two years as lectures, your 3rd year you get preceptor based rotations and your 4th year you are 100% on your own. There is no rural medicine. What is most likely being mistakenly thought of a rural medicine is the possibility of doing rotation in 3rd year in the delta, this is the WORST way to learn as a 3rd year because it lacks the proper structure of a residency program. Its also not going to help you when it comes to getting seen by residency programs especially if you have to make up your education in your 4th year.

5) Prep for boards at this school is non existent. Some claim the lectures have improved which is helpful for step 1 and level 1, maybe it is. I don't know I am not there.


When it comes to picking schools you need 1 thing above everything else SUPPORT from hospital faculty that are a part of residency programs. If you are not in hospitals with residents in your 3rd year your education and connections suffer. 2nd to that schools that teach to the boards and the boards alone are going to help you get stronger board scores. Last you want a school that makes learning easier not harder. Carey still fails all 3 of these things.



The reasons to pick Carey are 1) You have no were else to go 2) You always wanted to be a hattiesburg family doc 3) You want to practice OMM ( Carey is most likely the best place you can go if you want to really use OMM, they will make you very good at it and send you to all kind of conferences ) 4) You want to just get a DO degree and don't care about residency" / end quote

 

[FutureDoctor5000]

No. Failure at WCUCOM is much more likely than failure at ACOM.


OP, I recommend you do more research. When looking at previous threads, and quoting @WorldChanger36: "admins, faculty and deans have all been noted lying to applicants to make the school seem better than it is in regards to things like research, board reviews, curriculum and match rates. The med students apart of the interview crews are the most pro-carey and happiest students. Also it is expected that schools will put their best foot forward and cover up problems. It is wisest to COMPLETELY ignore anything that you learn about a school from interviews that can not be verified over multiple years or from multiple trusted sources.

2) Carey also has a reputation of horrible recruiting methods and when the students don't turn out to be what they wanted they will deliberately try to fail them out. This was going on last year so I have no doubt it is still going on. We still have a very high attrition rate.

3) The biggest problem Carey has going forward is match rates... they are abysmal. The combined match before any post match was under 50%. Many people had to find programs in the SOAP and scramble and a few could not find placement at all. This is a very big deal. I can tell you my class is having problems with interviews, many are just not getting many, those that are doing ok are finding they are all being interviewed by the exact same programs. It is likely that our match rates will be even worse than last year and the rates will continue to decline. It is common that students are pressured to go into fields they don't want when they can not match and last year many did.

4) Carey doesn't specialize in anything, you get a general osteopathic medical education delivered to you in your 1st two years as lectures, your 3rd year you get preceptor based rotations and your 4th year you are 100% on your own. There is no rural medicine. What is most likely being mistakenly thought of a rural medicine is the possibility of doing rotation in 3rd year in the delta, this is the WORST way to learn as a 3rd year because it lacks the proper structure of a residency program. Its also not going to help you when it comes to getting seen by residency programs especially if you have to make up your education in your 4th year.

5) Prep for boards at this school is non existent. Some claim the lectures have improved which is helpful for step 1 and level 1, maybe it is. I don't know I am not there.


When it comes to picking schools you need 1 thing above everything else SUPPORT from hospital faculty that are a part of residency programs. If you are not in hospitals with residents in your 3rd year your education and connections suffer. 2nd to that schools that teach to the boards and the boards alone are going to help you get stronger board scores. Last you want a school that makes learning easier not harder. Carey still fails all 3 of these things.



The reasons to pick Carey are 1) You have no were else to go 2) You always wanted to be a hattiesburg family doc 3) You want to practice OMM ( Carey is most likely the best place you can go if you want to really use OMM, they will make you very good at it and send you to all kind of conferences ) 4) You want to just get a DO degree and don't care about residency" / end quote

Okay you don't attend WCUCOM currently, as world changer has said himself, things at Carey are improving and are much different then when he was there I can't address everything you said and try to explain why you are dead wrong cause it would take way too much time but I can say that every rotation site the school has is required to have residency rotations where they rotate with residents, the school has started using Boards and Beyond, Sketchy and U world, the new administration is changing things quickly, the Level 2 and Level 1 pass rate was at 98% last year. The school is also adding more residencies and that is a huge positive imo, we have hospital faculty from Merit Health giving us lectures all the time, the EM residents there come and give lectures and help us with our clinical course as well, so what you said is flat out false, the attrition the past 2 years has been much better, the rotations sites as World changer said were good, where everyone was learning, UMMC being every Carey friendly helps A LOT too because it is a huge MD school supporting us and that in itself is a huge advantage imo, almost every single residency at UMMC has a carey grad. Things are improving as the admin has changed. They will be adding more facilities as they expand class size as well, its also cheaper than ACOM which is honesty the biggest draw of Carey. Also I must add that the 2018 match rate was the worst for the school, it was a off year where the class did bad as a whole(due to multiple reasons), I am sure other schools have had bad years like that, i.e. NSUCOM this year etc.

 

[deleted936470]

Okay you don't attend WCUCOM currently, as world changer has said himself, things at Carey are improving and are much different then when he was there I can't address everything you said and try to explain why you are dead wrong cause it would take way too much time but I can say that every rotation site the school has is required to have residency rotations where they rotate with residents, the school has started using Boards and Beyond, Sketchy and U world, the new administration is changing things quickly, the Level 2 and Level 1 pass rate was at 98% last year. The school is also adding more residencies and that is a huge positive imo, we have hospital faculty from Merit Health giving us lectures all the time, the EM residents there come and give lectures and help us with our clinical course as well, so what you said is flat out false, the attrition the past 2 years has been much better, the rotations sites as World changer said were good, where everyone was learning, UMMC being every Carey friendly helps A LOT too because it is a huge MD school supporting us and that in itself is a huge advantage imo, almost every single residency at UMMC has a carey grad. Things are improving as the admin has changed. They will be adding more facilities as they expand class size as well, its also cheaper than ACOM which is honesty the biggest draw of Carey. Also I must add that the 2018 match rate was the worst for the school, it was a off year where the class did bad as a whole(due to multiple reasons), I am sure other schools have had bad years like that, i.e. NSUCOM this year etc.

They aren't improving, you just seem to think so and continue to parrot the same response. You could have consolidated your rambling response to two sentences. I'll emphasize that a very significant portion of your most recent class failed COMLEX, so many in fact that your school is still hiding it, rather than addressing the needed ~changes~

"things are changing because they are and because I was told they are changing so things are indeed changing" is not a coherent argument.

 

[FutureDoctor5000]

They aren't improving, you just seem to think so and continue to parrot the same response. You could have consolidated your rambling response to two sentences. I'll emphasize that a very significant portion of your most recent class failed COMLEX, so many in fact that your school is still hiding it, rather than addressing the needed ~changes~

"things are changing because they are and because I was told they are changing so things are indeed changing" is not a coherent argument.

Who even are you? Are you student at wcucom like me? Are you faculty? Are you admin? You are an outsider. I am a student here and I can SEE that things are changing. A significant portion of our last class failed boards? That’s just flat out false, our pass rate was 98% per our DEAN. So if you know more than our dean does or are you implying that our dean in lying to 200 students? I am giving people here and honest idea of what to expect at WCUCOM. You have no facts to back up what YOU are saying, quoting world changer who himself has said that things are different than when he was there, which btw was atleast 3 years ago.you need to stop being so misinformed man and get a grip.

 

[deleted936470]

Who even are you? Are you student at wcucom like me? Are you faculty? Are you admin? You are an outsider. I am a student here and I can SEE that things are changing. A significant portion of our last class failed boards? That’s just flat out false, our pass rate was 98% per our DEAN. So if you know more than our dean does or are you implying that our dean in lying to 200 students? I am giving people here and honest idea of what to expect at WCUCOM. You have no facts to back up what YOU are saying, quoting world changer who himself has said that things are different than when he was there, which btw was atleast 3 years ago.you need to stop being so misinformed man and get a grip.

And to what standard could you compare these changes to? You don't seem capable of determining what qualifies as a good medical program and what doesn't. That is to say, you see nothing.

A 98% is great, but then why can't I find that statistic in any official capacity?

 

[FutureDoctor5000]

Well it’s not any official capacity online because the admin hasn’t uploaded it online? Idk why? Well if you think the dean is a liar then that’s on you, I have spoken to the third years and they have confirmed that the 98% is accurate. I have no idea of any cheating scandal so....

 

[Wjldenver]

And to what standard could you compare these changes to? You don't seem capable of determining what qualifies as a good medical program and what doesn't. That is to say, you see nothing.

A 98% is great, but then why can't I find that statistic in any official capacity?

To be clear, no, I'm not implying it, I'm explicitly stating that I think, yes, your dean is a liar.

There are many reasons why one should avoid WCUCOM; add the naive, defensive cohort and cheating scandals to that list.

Answer these questions and site your sources in a succinct response and I'll consider not adding you to my ignore list.

I think it is very inappropriate as a pre-med student to explicitly state that some medical school's dean is a blatant liar. I've reported this post to the forum's various moderators for a review of your post history.

 

[FutureDoctor5000]

Maybe if you think about it, you could come up with a reason as to why.
So, your third year cohort is privy to information that nobody else is? OK

I have no clue what your are talking about. The 3rd years that took the COMLEX had a 98% pass rate this past July, obviously they will know what their class pass rate was!? Class of 2019, 2020 and 2021 board scores were much better than the class of 2018, which was the 84%. You can either believe me since this is the direct info given from
admin to us or you can postulate your own ideas, it’s up to you, just like you can choose to believe that the world is flat.

 

[FutureDoctor5000]

I think it is very inappropriate as a pre-med student to explicitly state that some medical school's dean is a blatant liar. I've reported this post to the forum's various moderators for a review of your post history.

Thank you, I had no clue he was a premed, we should all ignore him and take everything he/she says with a grain of salt.

 

[BorntobeDO?]

If WCU is not the worst DO school than which school is?
- Highest attrition rate I've seen. 10% every year.
- Abysmal first time COMLEX pass rate. 84%
- 92% placement rate in 2018. Historically the lowest I've ever seen.
- You even mentioned that you have to teach yourself most of the stuff for boards.

Even LUCOM is doing better than WCU.
That's why I recommended ACOM OP. Although, I didn't like all the negative comments from before, but WCU along with LMU are two schools I wouldn't recommend to anyone.

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LMU at least passes the boards besides PE, I dont think they are on the same level as WCU. But I generally agree with the comment.

 

[FutureDoctor5000]

3 acceptances, 2 ii in the near future, which include schools with transparent recruiting methods, attrition rates and board performances.

Had the same impression after my interview. An expensive lesson!

Why should we believe what you are saying? What is “transparent “ ? Wcucom also has thier board pass rates online, just like the other schools. Also I don’t know of many schools that post attrition rates anyway.

 

[ritts]

ACOM seemed dope. I ended up picking a different DO school with less mandatory lectures (theirs was 80%) but it was a close 2nd

 

[Shotapp]

Op, go to ACOM. Far better school in my opinion.

 

[LABrondo]

Can someone explain what happened with this cheating scandal? What scandal was it? What did the admin turn a blind eye towards?

 

[Cardboard101]

The thing about WCU that bugs me is that they lie about having a 97%-100% match and hide their match lists. The data table they put out doesn't even match the one released by AACOM. None of their match placement rates add up to what their cumulative match placement is (except 2017), some go over 100% and some are under what's reported.

Now, what I find absolutely hilarious is how they do their best to mislead readers as to their COMLEX pass rates.

Here you see their Level 1 and 2: Nice, increasing average approaching national average. Scaled Y axis to 70 to emphasize increase.

And here you have their PE and Level 3: Fluctuating/decreasing scores with not national average with Y axis scaled to 0 to minimize decrease. It looks like their PE is down to about 85% and I have to use about because of the way they chose to selectively represent this set of data.

Vital Statistics | William Carey University

www.wmcarey.edu

Attrition data below assuming average first year repeat %.

In terms of WCU attrition:
89 students of the class of 2018 graduated from the 2014 matriculating class of 114. That's a 78.1% 4 year graduation rate.
99 students of the class of 2017 graduated from the 2013 matriculating class of 111. That's a 89.2% 4 year graduation rate.
88 students of the class of 2016 graduated from the 2012 matriculating class of 109. That's a 80.1% 4 year graduation rate.
88 students of the class of 2015 graduated from the 2011 matriculating class of 109. That's a 80.1% 4 year graduation rate.
92 students of the class of 2014 graduated from the 2010 matriculating class of 110. That's a 83.6% 4 year graduation rate.
Unfortunately WCU hides their match lists so we have no idea how many of those students actually placed where.

Class data for 2010-2018 is as follows:
2010-11: 109 first year, inaugural class.
2011-12: 211 total enrollment, 109 first year, 0 graduates. (109+109)=218 expected enrollment, 7 attrition. 7/218 = 3.2% attrition rate.
2012-13: 317 total enrollment, 109 first year, 0 graduates. (211+109)=320 expected enrollment, 3 attrition. 3/320 = 0.9% attrition rate.
2013-14: 404 total enrollment, 111 first year, 88 graduates. (317+111)=428 expected enrollment, 24 attrition. 24/428 = 5.6% attrition rate.
2014-15: 417 total enrollment, 114 first year, 92 graduates. (404+114-88)=430 expected enrollment, 13 attrition. 13/430 = 3.0% attrition rate.
2015-16: 404 total enrollment, 112 first year, 88 graduates. (417+112-92)=437 expected enrollment, 33 attrition. 33/437 = 7.6% attrition rate.
2016-17: 408 total enrollment, 112 first year, 99 graduates. (404+112-88)=428 expected enrollment, 20 attrition. 20/428= 4.7% attrition rate.
2017-18: 412 total enrollment, 109 first year, 89 graduates. (408+109-99)=418 expected enrollment, 6 attrition. 6/418 = 1.4% attrition rate.
Average yearly attrition rate = 3.77%

Taking the average yearly attrition rate, from OMS-I to graduation. 0.9623^4 = 85.8% graduation or 14.2% attrition.

In terms of ACOM attrition:
162 students of the class of 2019 graduated/placed into residency from the 2015 matriculating class of 175. That's a 92.6% 4 year start to residency rate.
141 students of the class of 2018 graduated/placed into residency from the 2014 matriculating class of 163. That's a 86.5% 4 year start to residency rate.
126 students of the class of 2018 graduated/placed into residency from the 2013 matriculating class of 162. That's a 77.8% 4 year start to residency rate.
Their latest match data are here: Institutional Data | Alabama College of Osteopathic Medicine

Class data for 2013-2019 is as follows:
2013-14: 162 first year, inaugural class.
2014-15: 316 total enrollment, 163 first year, 0 graduates. (162+162) = 325 expected enrollment, 9 attrition. 9/325 = 2.8% attrition rate.
2015-16: 460 total enrollment, 175 first year, 0 graduates. (316+175) = 491 expected enrollment, 31 attrition. 31/491 = 6.3% attrition rate.
2016-17: 605 total enrollment, 168 first year, 126 graduates. (460+168) = 628 expected enrollment, 23 attrition. 23/628 = 3.7% attrition rate.
2017-18: 639 total enrollment, 173 first year, 144 graduates. (605+173-126) = 652 expected enrollment, 13 attrition. 13/652 = 2.0% attrition rate.
2018-19: 651 total enrollment, 173 first year, 162 graduates. (651+173-162) = 662 expected enrollment, 11 attrition. 11/662 = 1.7% attrition rate.
Average yearly attrition rate = 3.3%

Taking the average yearly attrition rate, from OMS-I to graduation. 0.967^4 = 87.4% graduation or 12.6% attrition.

Here's the data if anyone wants to take a look:

https://www.aacom.org/docs/default-source/data-and-trends/applications-enrollment-and-graduates-by-osteopathic-medical-college-2014-2019.pdf?sfvrsn=a6d83497_7

https://www.aacom.org/docs/default-source/data-and-trends/2014_MatCOMState.pdf?sfvrsn=fc154097_6

In summary, both schools had the typical high attrition/repeat and low COMLEX-1 passing rates of new COMs, although ACOM seems to be developing faster especially when you look at their latest class. WCU seems to still have a consistently low 4 year graduation rate of 80% even after graduating 5 classes. Their attrition rate has gone down over the last 3 years which is a plus but their PE/Level3 passing rate has also fallen.

I'd compare residencies and placement, but again WCU chooses not publish this data despite having it and even if they did I suspect it'll be in bar graph form with the Y axis as matches and the X axis as "yes.".

I'd recommend ACOM at this point, but go somewhere more established if you can.

ACOM seemed dope. I ended up picking a different DO school with less mandatory lectures (theirs was 80%) but it was a close 2nd

They knocked it down to 60% for the new class.

 

[BorntobeDO?]

The thing about WCU that bugs me is that they lie about having a 97%-100% match and hide their match lists. The data table they put out doesn't even match the one released by AACOM. None of their match placement rates add up to what their cumulative match placement is (except 2017), some go over 100% and some are under what's reported.
View attachment 283424

Now, what I find absolutely hilarious is how they do their best to mislead readers as to their COMLEX pass rates.

Here you see their Level 1 and 2: Nice, increasing average approaching national average. Scaled Y axis to 70 to emphasize increase.
View attachment 283425View attachment 283426

And here you have their PE and Level 3: Fluctuating/decreasing scores with not national average with Y axis scaled to 0 to minimize decrease. It looks like their PE is down to about 85% and I have to use about because of the way they chose to selectively represent this set of data.
View attachment 283427View attachment 283428

Vital Statistics | William Carey University

www.wmcarey.edu

Attrition data below assuming average first year repeat %.

In terms of WCU attrition:
89 students of the class of 2018 graduated from the 2014 matriculating class of 114. That's a 78.1% 4 year graduation rate.
99 students of the class of 2017 graduated from the 2013 matriculating class of 111. That's a 89.2% 4 year graduation rate.
88 students of the class of 2016 graduated from the 2012 matriculating class of 109. That's a 80.1% 4 year graduation rate.
88 students of the class of 2015 graduated from the 2011 matriculating class of 109. That's a 80.1% 4 year graduation rate.
92 students of the class of 2014 graduated from the 2010 matriculating class of 110. That's a 83.6% 4 year graduation rate.
Unfortunately WCU hides their match lists so we have no idea how many of those students actually placed where.

Class data for 2010-2018 is as follows:
2010-11: 109 first year, inaugural class.
2011-12: 211 total enrollment, 109 first year, 0 graduates. (109+109)=218 expected enrollment, 7 attrition. 7/218 = 3.2% attrition rate.
2012-13: 317 total enrollment, 109 first year, 0 graduates. (211+109)=320 expected enrollment, 3 attrition. 3/320 = 0.9% attrition rate.
2013-14: 404 total enrollment, 111 first year, 88 graduates. (317+111)=428 expected enrollment, 24 attrition. 24/428 = 5.6% attrition rate.
2014-15: 417 total enrollment, 114 first year, 92 graduates. (404+114-88)=430 expected enrollment, 13 attrition. 13/430 = 3.0% attrition rate.
2015-16: 404 total enrollment, 112 first year, 88 graduates. (417+112-92)=437 expected enrollment, 33 attrition. 33/437 = 7.6% attrition rate.
2016-17: 408 total enrollment, 112 first year, 99 graduates. (404+112-88)=428 expected enrollment, 20 attrition. 20/428= 4.7% attrition rate.
2017-18: 412 total enrollment, 109 first year, 89 graduates. (408+109-99)=418 expected enrollment, 6 attrition. 6/418 = 1.4% attrition rate.
Average yearly attrition rate = 3.77%

Taking the average yearly attrition rate, from OMS-I to graduation. 0.9623^4 = 85.8% graduation or 14.2% attrition.

In terms of ACOM attrition:
162 students of the class of 2019 graduated/placed into residency from the 2015 matriculating class of 175. That's a 92.6% 4 year start to residency rate.
141 students of the class of 2018 graduated/placed into residency from the 2014 matriculating class of 163. That's a 86.5% 4 year start to residency rate.
126 students of the class of 2018 graduated/placed into residency from the 2013 matriculating class of 162. That's a 77.8% 4 year start to residency rate.
Their latest match data are here: Institutional Data | Alabama College of Osteopathic Medicine

Class data for 2013-2019 is as follows:
2013-14: 162 first year, inaugural class.
2014-15: 316 total enrollment, 163 first year, 0 graduates. (162+162) = 325 expected enrollment, 9 attrition. 9/325 = 2.8% attrition rate.
2015-16: 460 total enrollment, 175 first year, 0 graduates. (316+175) = 491 expected enrollment, 31 attrition. 31/491 = 6.3% attrition rate.
2016-17: 605 total enrollment, 168 first year, 126 graduates. (460+168) = 628 expected enrollment, 23 attrition. 23/628 = 3.7% attrition rate.
2017-18: 639 total enrollment, 173 first year, 144 graduates. (605+173-126) = 652 expected enrollment, 13 attrition. 13/652 = 2.0% attrition rate.
2018-19: 651 total enrollment, 173 first year, 162 graduates. (651+173-162) = 662 expected enrollment, 11 attrition. 11/662 = 1.7% attrition rate.
Average yearly attrition rate = 3.3%

Taking the average yearly attrition rate, from OMS-I to graduation. 0.967^4 = 87.4% graduation or 12.6% attrition.

Here's the data if anyone wants to take a look:

https://www.aacom.org/docs/default-source/data-and-trends/applications-enrollment-and-graduates-by-osteopathic-medical-college-2014-2019.pdf?sfvrsn=a6d83497_7

https://www.aacom.org/docs/default-source/data-and-trends/2014_MatCOMState.pdf?sfvrsn=fc154097_6

In summary, both schools had the typical high attrition/repeat and low COMLEX-1 passing rates of new COMs, although ACOM seems to be developing faster especially when you look at their latest class. WCU seems to still have a consistently low 4 year graduation rate of 80% even after graduating 5 classes. Their attrition rate has gone down over the last 3 years which is a plus but their PE/Level3 passing rate has also fallen.

I'd compare residencies and placement, but again WCU chooses not publish this data despite having it and even if they did I suspect it'll be in bar graph form with the Y axis as matches and the X axis as "yes.".

I'd recommend ACOM at this point, but go somewhere more established if you can.



They knocked it down to 60% for the new class.

This is the best breakdown of school attrition data I have ever seen on here, would +100 if I could. Very well done. This is the only way you can even have an idea.

Also how does WCU get away with having level 1 data that is 2 years out of date. That already tells you they didn't improve right there.

 

[Epilepsy365]

Comlex board pass scores mean jack in the new world order. The only board score data that you should care about are the % of class taking both USMLE and the class averages.

 

[deleted936470]

Comlex board pass scores mean jack in the new world order. The only board score data that you should care about are the % of class taking both USMLE and the class averages.

And it's merely reason like #4 as to why the school should be avoided.

 

[LABrondo]

Evidently we cannot talk about that lest you want to be reported for it. In a weak appeal to authority, we are not to discuss valid concerns until after we have matriculated to the school. For now, accept at face value what the faculty and its shills at WCUCOM have to say.

Huh? Can someone with info PM me it then? Or post anonymously on here? Very odd

 

[WorldChanger36]

Can someone explain what happened with this cheating scandal? What scandal was it? What did the admin turn a blind eye towards?

Cheating Scandal as I know about it...
I can tell what I know about it... The class below mine had serious issues with cheating and no it wasn't a few bad apples a large chunk of the class was in on it.
Apparently it started with cheating on the opp quizzes, the quizzes were timed but often reused many questions from year to year so the just had to get ahold of some old quizzes have someone sit outside the room and talk the quiz from either the parking lot or the lobby then leave until the your practical group met. You got credit for both attendance and the quiz. The problem was they were not only greedy but bold and the professor noticed that alot of people were missing from the class but still logged on for the quiz. There was even a day where only 20 people showed up and still the entire class took the quiz. Teachers tried changing the question but still people would log in and use notes to figure out the answers. By the time they tried using a paper roll call to screen out but there was always someone in the class that would sign for the missing people. On top of that they would cheat on histology by sticking the answers under the seat, admin tried to beat this by randomizing and assigning seating for tests and searching people and the seats before hand but again so many people were doing it any place they were assigned they often land on a spot with answers. It got so bad that the histology professor quit. There were also tests stolen from the computers of teachers which were sent to the class days ahead of time and this is the class that tried to figure out what comsae form the school used and distributed it to the entire class however this backfired and the school used a completely different form resulting in many failures.

Often people were caught but because it was so many people the school didn't do anything. The class behind them was more honest but had a few that tried to follow in the footsteps of their predecessors, got caught and were expelled or punished some other way as they were only a few and Carey had put into place better anticheating methods and the classes were changed. The AOA did send in a party to investigate and made multiple changes to testing.

Faculty changes
Now many of the faculty have been changed and most of those persons that would say anything to make the school look better than it is are gone. Sure faculty will always promote the school and make it seem brighter than it is but that is par for the course. Many of the individuals that would say they would do something to help you and then do the opposite are gone. Many of the people there now are trustworthy and reliable. While the current dean is a bit of used car salesman you have nothing to worry about if you know what you are buying. Don't expect bells and whistles here expect basics and sometimes less. The tech is old and crappy, the sim lab is useless and some times the recording don't work but you don't go to med school for tech, sim labs and for someone to record a useless lecture for you, you go to get that degree.

Be smart the OP seemed like someone that wanted what Carey had to offer and med school close to home which makes it a good fit. It will work out well for him and I bet so would ACOM. It my opinion for this person he should choose Carey. If you are worried about all the stuff that happened before and very well could happen again then choose and different school. Many people that go to Carey didn't have much of a choice, when I went it was the worst school on paper but in reality I was trained better than most and whether that was because of my own hard work or what I was taught or a combo of both it doesn't matter.

Working in a hospital I see what most 3rd years have to put up with and the struggle they have in order to learn anything while I was personally instructed by either an attending or I was in a hospital that had few students so it was just me the intern, resident and the attending which was a great way to learn but not the best view of what residency is really like. Either way it worked out ok so far.

 

[Ho0v-man]

Cheating Scandal as I know about it...
I can tell what I know about it... The class below mine had serious issues with cheating and no it wasn't a few bad apples a large chunk of the class was in on it.
Apparently it started with cheating on the opp quizzes, the quizzes were timed but often reused many questions from year to year so the just had to get ahold of some old quizzes have someone sit outside the room and talk the quiz from either the parking lot or the lobby then leave until the your practical group met. You got credit for both attendance and the quiz. The problem was they were not only greedy but bold and the professor noticed that alot of people were missing from the class but still logged on for the quiz. There was even a day where only 20 people showed up and still the entire class took the quiz. Teachers tried changing the question but still people would log in and use notes to figure out the answers. By the time they tried using a paper roll call to screen out but there was always someone in the class that would sign for the missing people. On top of that they would cheat on histology by sticking the answers under the seat, admin tried to beat this by randomizing and assigning seating for tests and searching people and the seats before hand but again so many people were doing it any place they were assigned they often land on a spot with answers. It got so bad that the histology professor quit. There were also tests stolen from the computers of teachers which were sent to the class days ahead of time and this is the class that tried to figure out what comsae form the school used and distributed it to the entire class however this backfired and the school used a completely different form resulting in many failures.

Often people were caught but because it was so many people the school didn't do anything. The class behind them was more honest but had a few that tried to follow in the footsteps of their predecessors, got caught and were expelled or punished some other way as they were only a few and Carey had put into place better anticheating methods and the classes were changed. The AOA did send in a party to investigate and made multiple changes to testing.

Faculty changes
Now many of the faculty have been changed and most of those persons that would say anything to make the school look better than it is are gone. Sure faculty will always promote the school and make it seem brighter than it is but that is par for the course. Many of the individuals that would say they would do something to help you and then do the opposite are gone. Many of the people there now are trustworthy and reliable. While the current dean is a bit of used car salesman you have nothing to worry about if you know what you are buying. Don't expect bells and whistles here expect basics and sometimes less. The tech is old and crappy, the sim lab is useless and some times the recording don't work but you don't go to med school for tech, sim labs and for someone to record a useless lecture for you, you go to get that degree.

Be smart the OP seemed like someone that wanted what Carey had to offer and med school close to home which makes it a good fit. It will work out well for him and I bet so would ACOM. It my opinion for this person he should choose Carey. If you are worried about all the stuff that happened before and very well could happen again then choose and different school. Many people that go to Carey didn't have much of a choice, when I went it was the worst school on paper but in reality I was trained better than most and whether that was because of my own hard work or what I was taught or a combo of both it doesn't matter.

Working in a hospital I see what most 3rd years have to put up with and the struggle they have in order to learn anything while I was personally instructed by either an attending or I was in a hospital that had few students so it was just me the intern, resident and the attending which was a great way to learn but not the best view of what residency is really like. Either way it worked out ok so far.

Wow this blows my mind. I mean, what’s the end goal to cheating on a freaking comsae ffs!? Eventually you do have to know the material. No wonder they performed like a Caribbean school that year.

 

[DO2015CA]

Someone with no real life experience in medicine. I work with DO’s and MD’s daily. There is no difference

That’s not what they are referring to. They are referring to the actual DO schools not the students/future DOs. They’re referring to the hoops a student has to jump through with absolutely no help... actual impediment of you trying to overcome their trash guidance. They are referring to the prejudice in residency selection. They are talking about the majority of new schools not teaching their students with residents. They’re talking about new schools not opening their own residency. They are talking about sooo many things. Except they are not talking about MD vs DO

 

[Rekt]

Someone with no real life experience in medicine. I work with DO’s and MD’s daily. There is no difference

Please tell me more about medicine premed.

Right, as a resident I have no experience in medicine and also didn't work directly with physicians for several years prior to med school.

The question was about making a difference for residency, which it absolutely does. Once you cross that line of matching, it doesn't matter at all. I'm treated exactly the same as the MDs.

 

[deleted896822]

To further fuel this debate; I was invited to interview at VCOM Louisiana. This is a new school and I would be in the first class. How would you guys compare VCOM to ACOM

 

[DO2015CA]

ACOM x1000

 

[deleted896822]

ACOM x1000

It looked like they had a fairly low percentage match in EM

 

[Ho0v-man]

To further fuel this debate; I was invited to interview at VCOM Louisiana. This is a new school and I would be in the first class. How would you guys compare VCOM to ACOM

Don’t go to a brand new VCOM. I interviewed at VCOM-auburn to be in one of their early classes. Not one person had any idea where their students were going for third year rotations and I got the vibe a lot were being shipped out of state bc they essentially had nothing. Couple that with mandatory attendance, dress code, being brand new, etc.

Also, I realize this may not be apparent to you, but having upperclassmen is a big deal. I don’t know how I would have survived the first two years without all those old study guides or quiz keys made over those power points or just general info about how to do this stuff. A brand new school should always be last on your list.

A low number of EM matches should not scare you from a school. Look at the charting outcomes. EM is not that competitive.

 

[DO2015CA]

It looked like they had a fairly low percentage match in EM

with this rationale of thinking VCOM-LA had none. ACOM is still a good school for a brand new DO school. Their downside is their overly paternalistic view which leads to mandatory attendance and BS rules but as for matching they did a decent job. Class of 2019 didn’t have too terribly many people interested in EM. I don’t remember anyone shooting for EM and not getting it. Who knows though, it’s not like I asked everyone in the class

 

[DrStephenStrange]

Don’t go to a brand new VCOM. I interviewed at VCOM-auburn to be in one of their early classes. Not one person had any idea where their students were going for third year rotations and I got the vibe a lot were being shipped out of state bc they essentially had nothing. Couple that with mandatory attendance, dress code, being brand new, etc.

Also, I realize this may not be apparent to you, but having upperclassmen is a big deal. I don’t know how I would have survived the first two years without all those old study guides or quiz keys made over those power points or just general info about how to do this stuff. A brand new school should always be last on your list.

A low number of EM matches should not scare you from a school. Look at the charting outcomes. EM is not that competitive.

VCOM-auburn inaugural class did have a pretty decent match list though. This is not to say that OP should go to VCOM-LA, but it seems like having a well established parent institution helped in this case.

Sent from my SM-G973U using SDN mobile

 

[CajunMedic]

Member of the abysmal class of 2018 here.

I can tell you that at least 3 of us that wanted EM and took TRI's matched. 1 stayed at the home EM program at Merit Health Wesley, One stayed on for EM at their location in NY state. I matched my #1 program out of state. As far as IM, one got a PGY-2 IM spot, another one matched IM. One of the others that took a year off matched at their #1 IM program. There is one that basically failed, had to repeat 4th year and allegedly committed a match violation this year-their career is pretty much over.

The new dean is EM boarded and has connections. He even tried to get me an interview at his alma mater during the party the night before his installation as dean.

I had a good time and good clinical experiences at WCUCOM, despite all the other bullcrap I dealt with. I will admit I got bad intel my first attempt at matching and that was part of what happened for me.

n=1, but I've interviewed several WCUCOM 4th years for residency and they've had really strong apps. Sounds like the quality has gotten better. Current student will have to chime in on rotations. I understand there has been some upheaval in the rotations department.

I was in the match ceremony for the class of 2019, and If I remember correctly, there were some pretty strong EM matches, as well as a neurosurgery and a derm.

OP, our backgrounds and goals aren't too dissimilar. I was able to keep a foot firmly planted in the EMS world while I was there.

Feel free to PM me if you have any further questions or need info

 

[jojo58]

Who even are you? Are you student at wcucom like me? Are you faculty? Are you admin? You are an outsider. I am a student here and I can SEE that things are changing. A significant portion of our last class failed boards? That’s just flat out false, our pass rate was 98% per our DEAN. So if you know more than our dean does or are you implying that our dean in lying to 200 students? I am giving people here and honest idea of what to expect at WCUCOM. You have no facts to back up what YOU are saying, quoting world changer who himself has said that things are different than when he was there, which btw was atleast 3 years ago.you need to stop being so misinformed man and get a grip.

I think it is very inappropriate as a pre-med student to explicitly state that some medical school's dean is a blatant liar. I've reported this post to the forum's various moderators for a review of your post history.

Here we see WCUCOM faculty bullying students for the millionth time. Look folks, WCUCOM is a dump and no amount of free speech suppression will hide that fact.

 

[deleted936470]

Here we see WCUCOM faculty bullying students for the millionth time. Look folks, WCUCOM is a dump and no amount of free speech suppression will hide that fact.

It's funny cus it's true

 

[Oorham]

What do you guys think of WCUCOM now in 2020?